The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Applying Japanese Wisdom in Counselling with Ai Kihara
"I believe when I sleep at nighttime I die. Then when I wake up I got a new life." These powerful words from Ai Kihara set the tone for a profound conversation about finding meaning through Japanese wisdom traditions.
Based in Auckland, New Zealand, Ai brings a unique perspective to mental health practice, drawing from her heritage as a descendant of both spiritual practitioners and samurai. She offers refreshing insights into concepts that have become misunderstood in Western culture—particularly Ikigai. Far from being merely a "dream job" formula as popularized in Western books, authentic Ikigai can be something as simple as enjoying ice cream or seeing a friend smile. This flexibility makes it a remarkably effective tool in suicide prevention, where Ai has witnessed how redirecting attention to even the smallest source of meaning—like remembering to feed a pet cat—can create the crucial connection needed to choose life.
The conversation delves into several Japanese therapeutic approaches that challenge Western assumptions. Where Western treatment for depression often emphasizes activity ("do something, work hard, exercise"), Morita therapy takes the opposite approach—rest, do nothing, don't think, until natural motivation returns. Central to this practice is Arugamama—accepting things exactly as they are without judgment. This radical acceptance creates the foundation for genuine healing by acknowledging reality rather than distracting from it.
Equally fascinating is Ai's personalized Naikan practice, which she's maintained for over 30 years. Each night before sleeping, she reflects on what she did for others, how others helped her, and what she learned from her experiences—a simple yet profound practice that maintains her connection to purpose. Her integration of Zen concepts like Ichienso (perfect circle) into art therapy helps clients visualize wholeness while acknowledging life's impermanence.
Whether you're interested in alternative approaches to mental health, seeking deeper meaning in your own life, or simply curious about Japanese philosophy, this conversation offers valuable insights into how ancient wisdom can address very modern problems. Listen now to discover how small moments of meaning might transform your perspective on what makes life worth living.
I believe when I sleep at nighttime I die. Then when I woke up I got a new life because I believe reincarnation. So before I die I want to do Naikan. The first question is did I do something for people? And second question is did someone help me? And third question is what I learned from that experience? How can I feel appreciation for life?
Speaker 2:My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Ai Kihara. Ai has trained and worked as a counsellor, social worker and domestic violence advocate since 1997. Based in Auckland, new Zealand, she currently works with the ACC Accident Compensation Corporation and the EAP Employee Assistant Program another community mental health services through her own business as the Director of HANA Counseling and Education. Welcome to the podcast, aisan.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 2:It's my pleasure. Last time we spoke, you shared your family history with me, which was very interesting, so would you like to touch on that?
Speaker 1:Yes, so my mum's side comes from a very spiritual family and they are working for some spiritual stuff, and one of my father's side's ancestors was a Samurai, so I come from a very spiritual family.
Speaker 2:You moved to New Zealand in 2008. What attracted you to New Zealand and what has kept you there?
Speaker 1:Because I used to work at a very similar with Oranga Tamariki, new Zealand and Women's Refuge, like mixing the government agencies, and I was working for victims of family harm and child abuse and human trafficking cases. I was really burned out through my work and in that time New Zealand was a very popular place to study psychology and be a mental health professional. So that's why I came to New Zealand, nice to study psychology and be mental health professionals.
Speaker 2:So that's why I came to New Zealand, Nice, and you've been there now for what? About eight years? Or you've lived there now, no, for more than eight years, 18 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 17, 18 years.
Speaker 2:So what has kept you there?
Speaker 1:Because I love New Zealand and, as a Japanese, we usually feel appreciation when we learned or when we got received something. Because I got registration as a therapist in New Zealand and I learned a lot as a therapist in New Zealand and I learned a lot, not only work or study, but also like Maori history or colonization lots, lots of the stuff. Now I really want to contribute to myself, to show my appreciation through my work. That's why I keep staying in New Zealand.
Speaker 1:And I want to help other therapists and students to learn Ikigai and some other Japanese philosophy and traditional therapy as well.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. Well, speaking of Ikigai, I stumbled upon one of your LinkedIn posts which was on Ikigai. So how do you define ikigai?
Speaker 1:Because for Japanese, ikigai is very simple but very important language and concept. Many kids, even three or four years old kids, learn from their parents what is ikigai. Ikigai sometimes can be very small or quite big. Like my uncle father's side, he was a medical doctor and his ikigai was helping people as a doctor. But sometimes my ikigai was just to buy very yummy ice cream or takoyaki or sushi, have sushi or seeing my friends smile.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think food is a universal source of ikigai. Everyone loves food and we all have our favorite, and in your LinkedIn post, you mentioned four conditions for finding meaning in one's life. Would you like to share them?
Speaker 1:That is the one article in Japan to talk about what is Ikigai. Especially Ikigai's language was getting quite popular in Japan after World War II because in that time people were very poor. They had to rebuild Japan again, so that's it will help people to feel not only oh, we are poor now and we don't have job, we don't have any resource. So ikigai was part of giving people some hope not to just feel very poor, so feel freedom from poor or depressed after the war, world War II, and finding meaning for the person. Even their life is very not happy right now, but sometimes Ikigai will give people some hope for their future or finding the meaning of why they are here now to think about future again.
Speaker 1:And Ikigai sometimes can find when we connect with others, especially Japanese, we are very collective thinking, we are not individualism people. So sometimes when we connect with people we feel ikigai and we feel why I'm here. For example, many and children. Their attachment is very strong. Some research was saying the strongest one in the attachment theory for Japanese moms and kids is bond and attachment. And some people feel, even if I'm just a housewife, I don't have any qualification, I don't earn money, but still I feel ikigai as a mother. So connecting with kids, connecting with people, will give them ikigai, meaning why I'm here.
Speaker 1:And last one is sometimes ikigai. We talk about the job, our job and occupation. Sometimes we find that ikigai through work. For example, I have one friend. He's working at the supermarket as a checkout in japan. He feel ikigai and he feel that is really great work, even that it's no professional work for Western people. But for him a supermarket is very important part in our life so he enjoy and he thinks he's helping people and that is his ikigai too. So sometimes ikigai can get through work as well.
Speaker 2:I must say I do like shopping in Japan, even at supermarkets, because the staff, they serve you, they treat you well, they're always focused. You feel served. I can understand, perhaps, why your friend enjoys their job. They have a sense of purpose and feel like they're connecting to their customer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was really surprised too when I come to New Zealand and how European people, pakeha people are talking about oh I'm just working at a factory, I'm a labour job. I'm just working at a factory, I'm a labor job, I do. And I couldn't understand why this person was blaming themselves. So I asked the person you don't feel ikigai? And he said no, why I feel ikigai. So I found it's a very different culture we have.
Speaker 2:I think so.
Speaker 2:We do value, success and wealth perhaps more in the West than in Japan and status, and I guess we wouldn't see a factory job or working at a supermarket as a high status job, even though it does serve a purpose and it's a role that's meaningful and that most people depend on.
Speaker 2:So it is a bit strange and I also recall reading several books that presented this idea that after post-war Japan, japan was focused on recovery, so there wasn't this strong sense of individual ikigai Never really has been, perhaps until recently. And with affluence and money it seems like people struggle to find meaning and purpose because they don't have something to focus on. And then with wealth there are certain benefits, but with too much wealth we seem to struggle and I guess we're trying to find purpose or meaning through materialism or through spending money, but that can only go so far and, as you mentioned, we tend to find it in our relationships, working together, working towards something meaningful. So I do think it is tied to our social world and perhaps we feel it's stronger when we're working together on a meaningful goal or doing meaningful work together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like my father had a business and some of my relatives also had a business too, and especially my father's side was the samurai family. So I was told that money is just money, money is just a number and money is for everyone. Money is not something we can say successful life or not Because if we want to have money themselves, we can work hard or we can selling house or selling insurance or selling jewelry or cheating people. There are lots, lots of ways to just get money if we want to just get money. But that is no meaning.
Speaker 2:I think it's refreshing because we are fixated on wealth, money. People own a lot of property, material things, and I think they always come with a burden. So if you own something you have to use it, you have to take care of it. If you don't use it, perhaps you feel guilty. If you scratch it, damage it, then you get worried. So perhaps the less things we have, the more freedom we have.
Speaker 1:Yes, and my mom's side. They had a very big and quite old house maybe more than 200 or 300 years old house in Kyoto and they were really wealthy. Maybe they have a very you know million dollars of the money, but they have never, ever showed off their rich. My mother's side is a very spiritual family but they also said to me the money is just the money and we don't need to spend money. So they enjoy gardening, they enjoy helping people and I was really surprised how they understand. Both my mum and the father's side understand money. It's so different compared with some other people.
Speaker 2:I guess money can only go so far.
Speaker 1:I was surprised to see some of my EAB clients really like Ikigai concept, because few of my clients went to training and workshop to understand Ikigai, to be popular person or successful person or earn money more. So I was really shocked to hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're referring to the Western Venn diagram where it says are you doing something you love, that you're good at, that the world needs and that you can be paid for? And it's presenting Ikigai as a sweet spot of this and it's like your dream job or the ideal job. But of course, that's a Western interpretation. Perhaps the only true thing is ikigai can be something you love, but doesn't always have to be. It can be someone you love. You don't have to be good at it.
Speaker 2:I think often ikigai is something you want to be good at. It's like a hobby you want to do and you want to grow and learn. It's not really what the world needs. It's what you need to make your life meaningful. That can include service to others and, rather than money, it's really intrinsic motivation. It's something that makes you feel good, makes you feel alive.
Speaker 2:So the west has got it wrong. But it's so popular in the west because we seem to value this idea of the perfect dream job, whereas I think eastern wisdom or japanese wisdom they kind of know there's really no concept of the perfect job. Meaningful work or purposeful work comes with challenge. Some people don't, as you mentioned, don't need to be paid well, and I think it also touches on the idea of a craftsmanship. Some people dedicate their life to their craft and they would rather spend all their time on their craft rather than spending money from the money they make from their craft. So was that hard for you to adjust from this Japanese mindset about money and success to maybe what you've experienced in the West or in New Zealand?
Speaker 1:in the West or in New Zealand. Yeah, I was really really struggling to understand the Western society when I came to New Zealand and started working at New Zealand school. I couldn't adjust in their culture and I couldn't understand why people want to get promotion or why people are talking about money a lot. Also, they don't have much connection with each other because in Japan, company like colleague managers are our family, so I expected we go out almost every day or weekend, but never happened, only a few occasions. So I was really surprised.
Speaker 2:I see. Well, let's talk about how you integrate the concept of ikigai into your daily practice at Hana Counseling. So would you like to talk about that?
Speaker 1:For example, when I work for some risk case, including someone want to kill themselves. So I started using Ikigai concept, especially when I was working at National Helpline. And when I was working at National Helpline and when I was a supervisor, I realized this ikigai concept is a very powerful tool to helping someone want to end their life. Of course, there are lots of framework and theory and technique or knowledge we can use over the phone, but sometimes some of my team members needed my support when they have no idea what they can do after providing all the support and assessment stuff.
Speaker 1:But when I took over the phone and when I started asking the callers, I started asking the chorus their ikigai and sometimes says, wow, it's very interesting concept, I have never heard about ikigai. And when I explained to them what is the ikigai meaning and some people laughing a lot wow, I have ikigai a lot, I have so many ikigai and why I have ikigai a lot. I have so many ikigai and why do I have to end up my life? So I started using ikigai a long time ago maybe 15 years ago in my daily practice and I use ikigai concept when they lost a job or when they are in separation process or court case or someone come out from the jail in the probation program, it's always Ikigai is very great, because again, Ikigai can be very small and Ikigai can be very big meaning and Ikigai can be changed every day too. It's not like a Christian way of purpose in life.
Speaker 2:Is that the power of ikigai? So you have people stressed and worried about something big, or they have this existential crisis and they feel their world's falling apart. And then you say, hey, what's something small that gives you joy, or what's something small that makes you feel good or that's meaningful, and it really brings the focus to one small thing and it's kind of unexpected. Like, oh, I can find meaning or purpose from this small area. Could be a pet, could be favorite food, favorite food, it could be music, and it almost snaps the mindset, it changes the mindset. So is that the reason why it works?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, for example, I had one caller on the helpline and my team member was working very hard for this case. But my team member was just texting me in the group to say, hey, I have to ask I to help because I did everything that I can do. But when I took a call and when I couldn't find anything because I did risk assessment too he lost a job, he was in separation. Horrible situation. I understood, wow, of course this person really want to end the life, but I tried to find tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny hope. Even he cannot see. That is ikigai, because there is something in here, because he is here and he was talking with my team, that is ikigai too. And then I found he liked his cat and he forgot feeding the cat in the conversation and he said, oh my God, my cat has a happy life. She has ikigai. Right, even I don't have ikigai now. She has ikigai. That means I have ikigai. Ikigai sometimes can find from others.
Speaker 2:So it's really what you focus on and realizing. You can find hope or meaning or connection, even with your pet all these small things. It's also interesting that you can have multiple sources, so you can have many Ikigai and they can change over time or you're suggesting you can have different ones almost every day. Yeah, yes, yeah, yes, yeah. That reminds me of Ken Moggy and his idea that ikigai is a spectrum and you can easily identify 100 sources of ikigai in your life. So it sounds like your clients respond well to this concept. So when you're talking or counselling someone, how do you first introduce the word if they don't know it?
Speaker 1:I usually ask them, if they have never ever heard the word ikigai, why you're here. I usually ask them what do you think? Why you're here? Because I'm working as a trauma therapist. So many people have trauma, but they're still here Because ikigai is the meaning of why I'm here as well. And some people say, oh, I don't know, I just survived. When I ask them, why are you surviving, why are you here? Then sometimes they naturally started talking about something like oh, I have a boyfriend. Even he's not a very nice person, I love him.
Speaker 1:Oh it's like you guys. And then I started to explain.
Speaker 2:Well, it sounds like you're asking the right questions, and it's interesting that we don't ask these questions in everyday conversation. We seem to save them for crisis or if we're having a deep and meaningful conversation with friends. So do you think we should think about these questions more often, like who are we living for? Why are we here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like my parents, ask me my ikigai almost every day.
Speaker 2:An ikigai seems to make it carefree and casual, Like there's not this stress or burden.
Speaker 1:But sometimes it can be very big too, like when I got the burnout. My manager asked me what is your ikigai at your work? And it helps me a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think this is the beauty and the power of the word it's subjective, it's individual, and it can be something small, can be something ambitious and everything in between, and there's no rules. It doesn't have to be like this, it doesn't have to be like that. It's tied to your personality, your values comes with your life experience, what you've learned, what you know, the people and animals, like your pets, that you have in your life. So it's very holistic but it's very light.
Speaker 1:And plus for myself, it's very spiritual, too Spiritual yes. Very spiritual for me.
Speaker 2:Without any reliance on religion.
Speaker 1:No, because finding ikigai is connecting with our genuine self and connecting with future, connecting with past, connecting with people. I think it's a part of our spirituality too.
Speaker 2:I agree, so that's really fascinating. I was wondering if ikigai could treat depression or trauma. Yes, and obviously it's a big part of your work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It keeps amazing me. I keep finding Ikigai in all these different areas, even in like robot design or AI, or just this idea of a holistic lifestyle or life motivation, work, motivation, and now it seems it's very beneficial for counselling or trauma therapy. Yes, something else that you use with your work and related to trauma therapy or counselling is Morita therapy. Would you like to touch on Dr Shoma Morita and his work and how you use it?
Speaker 1:So I met Morita therapy in 1994 when I started studying sociology at the University of Osaka, and in that time Morita therapy was not popular yet. But still my professor encouraged us to learn about Morita therapy. So Morita therapy was made by Dr Shoma Morita. He was a psychiatrist and he learned some Western European way of mental health and Western medication for some people with especially depression and anxiety, and he found it doesn't fit with Japanese people because, for example, western way of treating people with depression is do something, work hard, exercise and keep doing something. And Morita found that doesn't fit with Japanese because Japanese people are very holistic, they want to find out the reason they are depressed and some people don't care.
Speaker 1:When Morita gives some diagnosis, some people say what is the meaning of this diagnosis, I don't mind. Or some people didn't want to get the medication too. That's why Morita made Morita's therapy concept Just have a rest, do nothing, don't think, don't feel, sleep, sleep, rest Until they finally get the motivation to wake up and to do something. That is a very good beginning of the stage of recovery, because they already got the motivation to get better. So it's a very interesting theory.
Speaker 2:It is interesting and it's initially a surprise from a Western mindset, because, you're right, we're told to have a very proactive approach to treating depression and to be active, and it's almost like, if you want to get rid of depression, do something, and that's a contradiction to Morita therapy of do nothing, rest and live with the feeling until it goes away. So it comes with this idea of acceptance and there's a fascinating word for that in Morita therapy. Would you like to touch on that word?
Speaker 1:Arigamama.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of my favorite words, arigamama.
Speaker 1:Arigamama is different meaning, but simply accept what is happening, the situation, the mental condition as it is, their mental condition as it is. We don't need to blame ourselves or any judgment in there. That is an Aragamama concept, but it's a very hard one because that means we need to accept the diagnosis as well, or a condition or life, and Aragamama is talking about see the reality, not to make negative assumptions, and see the reality is also quite hard one too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've read and had conversations on the idea. It is the understanding of the true nature of things and then accepting it rather than trying to fight with it or being resentful. I mean, japan is a culture of acceptance. There are many words for acceptance and I think it would be quite hard for a Western mind to accept acceptance. We often don't want to accept acceptance and we have these ideas. I won't accept that. Well, that's not me. But arugamama is like another ikigai word. It sounds interesting.
Speaker 1:It's quite simple as it is, but it seems very powerful as well because morita was saying once we accept the reality means I have depression, I have anxiety, my wife left because I have depression. That is very hard, but that means the person already got the answer how they can recover what they need. They have to recover to get their life back. That's why morita said try not to just be busy, busy, busy. Do something. Exercise, listening to the music, going for a walk doesn't work because that means a person didn't digest and process and reflect what was happening, why the person got depression, for example. So it's very powerful.
Speaker 2:Yes, it seems like you're fully accepting and seeing the problem rather than distracting yourself from it in the hope it goes away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's a very hard one. Many of my clients feel very difficult to follow this Arugamama concept because I use Morita therapy a lot. But it's not easy because that means they see the reality. They can't just say using their negative, negative thoughts. And I use Akirameru concept too Nikusanryu no諦める meaning.
Speaker 2:Doesn't it mean to quit, give up, yeah, or would you like to touch on that a little bit more?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So諦める is give up in English, but諦める come from Japanese Buddhism concept. 諦 means clarify or identify what is happening in reality, but not emotionally understood. Just to see the fact. Just to see what is happening in reality, not again emotionally understand like, oh my God, is my husband left or oh, he was cheating. That is not Akira. Akira means he's not here anymore or she found someone else. He's not here anymore or she found someone else. And諦める, second step, is so, once we understood what is happening in life, in reality, see the fact, then find out, okay, what I need, what I want, and take action. That is the Japanese Buddhism way of give up in a very positive way. Passimira with Arugamama.
Speaker 2:It seems these words give you clarity and then the foundation full acceptance, full understanding then allows you to move forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very hard one.
Speaker 2:But it's also ironically, it seems quite passive, like you just don't do anything. You accept and obviously reflect, get clarity on what's real, rather than yeah, she cheated on me, she did all these horrible things, she's gone now, she's not a part of my life and so if you focus on that, you can think I learned to accept this. I accept this. Now I can move forward. So very powerful, but it sounds like not easy to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I usually combine with Nikon therapy, where my client is stuck in the monitor therapy.
Speaker 2:Well, nikon's something I've spoken about on this podcast podcast, but let's touch on it again and how you can use it. Well, nikon is this type of introspection often related to the mind's eye, and there are two types. So there's intensive nikon and that's something you do with someone who's practiced in the concept. Actually, my wife had to do Nikon as part of her employment when we were engaged and she had to spend five days at a Buddhist temple and basically she had to spend the majority of the time in silence and she'd start each day, I think, doing a little cleaning and then having a meal, and then she was allocated a section in the temple and partitioned off, and then someone would basically come and say right, I want you to think of the earliest memories of your mother, from the age from three to five, and think on these three questions what did your mother give you, what did you return to your mother and what troubles did you cause your mother? And reflect on that for the next 40 minutes, and after 40 minutes they would return and say what have you remembered? And that's it. Just keep sharing, keep sharing, no guiding, no questions. And then, after that, all right now, reflect on your mother from the age to five and eight and so on. And then, yeah, you do that for the next five days with the significant people in your life. So quite intense reflection.
Speaker 2:And obviously the third question is the most important and it's the one westerners would struggle with the most. Like me, I didn't cause any trouble for anyone would probably be our initial reaction. So it's a fascinating concept giving you clarity, and I think the idea is just that. It gives you clarity. You don't have to do anything. You can if you want, obviously after the experience. And then there's 24-hour night calm, which is like a journaling practice, where you just take the last 24 hours, you can reflect on one person, or I think you can reflect on the events of the last 24 hours and you ask yourself those questions what have I received from others, what have I given back and what troubles have I caused? And you spend more time on the third question and I think you just kind of go for detail and you bullet point in as much detail on those three questions and now you have this honest reflection of the past 24 hours. Is that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I created my own Nikon therapy when I studied Nikon therapy when I was a uni student because, again, my boss, family, are very spiritual people. So I changed the question three okay, and I do night camp every day when I go to bed since I was 18 years old, for over 30 years. It's very simple. My, my one, is very simple. My one is because I believe when I sleep at nighttime I die. Then when I woke up I got a new life because I believe reincarnation. So before I die I want to do Naikan. I mean, the first question is did I do something for people? And second question is did someone help me? And third question is what I learned from that experience? How can I feel appreciation for the life? Or sometimes, naikan helped me to understand who am I as well. So I use this very simple question to my clients so my client doesn't need to review their past life.
Speaker 2:I like it. So that's an alternative and they sound a bit lighter than traditional Naikan. What do you think of the third question? Have you shared the third question? You know what troubles have I caused with other people?
Speaker 1:No, For myself, it's because Naikan was studied a long time ago, when the monk be a professional monk at the temple, because they had to end and cut all the relationship with their family or friends being a monk. So that's why that question is so tense. But I believe we are just average people, we are not mongrel pastors, why we have to have such a question, this question how it helps our life. That's how I feel. So that's why I changed the question three. What is this meaning? What I can feel Appreciation, what is grateful. What is this meaning? What I can feel appreciation, what is grateful. Who am I?
Speaker 1:Or sometimes I had one client she found oh, actually I really like the person. I feel it's very boring colleague, I hate him. He's so boring, he's not good looking boy. But one day she said to me I found, I like him, I love him, and I said that's great, that's Naikan. And she found Ikigai too. Because she did Naikan, she hated him and she really wanted to quit the job. But she left the job. But when she did Naikan and she found, oh, actually I like him, I didn't notice it. And she found Ikigai too.
Speaker 2:Very powerful. So those questions you use the first one is what have you done for others. Second is, how has other people helped you? And the third is what have you learned?
Speaker 1:What I learned from the experience, or how I feel appreciation or grateful or understand who am I, because the purpose of having an icon a long time ago is understand identity. That is a beginning.
Speaker 2:Well, that's interesting and perhaps our listeners could maybe even create their own questions that resonates with them to do this internal reflection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because Naikan, the junior monk, did because they wanted to understand their identity, who they are, by reviewing the past relationships. So I identify as a key word in the Naikan. That's what I think.
Speaker 2:Well, that's refreshing. So that's a refreshing take on Naikan. And you actually use other Buddhistdhist concepts in your counseling, and one you wrote on linkedin is ichinichi ichizen. Would you like to explain that one?
Speaker 1:yeah. So ichinichi ichizen mean do something nice or good things, one good thing every day. And Ichi Nichi Ichi Zen is even the very small kids were told you can do Ichi Nichi Ichi Zen, like helping the chou or just to smile to friends. That is Ichi Nichi Ichi Zen too. That is Ichi-Nichi-Zen too. That is a very simple meaning, but there are many different meanings in the Ichi-Nichi-Zen.
Speaker 2:So Ichi-Nichi means one day, and then Ichi-Zen means one Zen. So it's almost like each day one Zen, or each day do a Zen practice. But the Zen practice could be anything. It could be helping someone, it could be a smile. It doesn't mean you have to go and meditate for an hour or something like that. So, yeah, let's expand on this concept. And it originates from something called Rokudo Mangyo, is that right? Yeah, Rokudo Mangyo or Rokuhara Mitsu as well.
Speaker 1:Let's dive in. Yeah, so the six different meanings, or what we can do. One is Fuse. Fuse is like donation or giving something to others. We sometimes say Ofuse. Ofuse means, like a koha, give some small money to the temple, that is an ofuse. When the monk was giving us some prayer, we give them ofuse rather than say money. So the one of Zaiichi Nijijizen is a Fuse. It's giving something to others, not only the money, just a small thing is fine, just one piece of chocolate is fine.
Speaker 1:And second one Jikai. Jikai means just try to commit in our promise or task or goal. I remember when I was young, teenage time, and I was so tired and I didn't do homework and my parents said Ichi-nichi-ichi-zen jikai, jikai, jikai. And I said okay, okay, yeah, I will do my homework, jikai. And this is Ichi-nichi-ichi zizen for you, for your personal growth. So you have to do it. So jikai means just to follow with our promise or task.
Speaker 1:And third one is niniku. Niniku means regulate our emotion, don't be emotional. Of course we can be emotional, but not to be controlled by emotion. And fourth one is 精進. 精進 means working hard as much as we can do. So we Japanese sometimes say shoujin, shinasai mean do shoujin, or when someone is studying or working hard, sometimes people say oh, you are doing shoujin, so shoujin is working hard. And fifth one is 前作. 前作 means living in the present moment, not to be in the past or future, just like here and now. And last one is 智慧. This is the most hardest one and difficult one, because that means wisdom and using all different, five different ethnocentrism concepts like Fuse Jikai, niniku Hyojin Zenjo. It integr, integrate everything.
Speaker 2:I understand Very powerful concepts and I think 禅、浄 living the moment or being present is something we're struggling with. We have so much distraction now, so these are six of these Ichin-Nichi Zen people could practice, so very helpful.
Speaker 1:Especially, Zenjo is very great for my client with PTSD post-traumatic stress disorder because trauma doesn't have timeline or a sense of time. That's why when we had a flashback or panic attack or nightmare, we feel as if that traumatic incident happened quite recently. But the Zenjo concept helped my client a lot and it's very good for them, Because Ichinichi Zen is good for ourselves, good for people, good for community ourselves, good for people, good for community. So when I was teaching my clients, use that Zenjo for get self-compassion will help them to recover from the trauma.
Speaker 2:Nice, it's amazing these words. They have almost this incredible power. Yes, and Japanese seems to have these words that articulate a concept in one word. It reminds me of the other word, kotodama, the idea that a word can have a spirit. So I kind of think these words, like ikigai and arugamama and zenjo, they have a spirit in the word and when you say them, it's like you're transferring the spirit of the word or sharing the spirit of the word. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because we believe many Japanese believe kotodama especially. I believe kotodama power law because, again, very spiritual person and come from very spiritual family. I was told don't use something very strong word because that will attack that person but attack to ourself too, because Koto Dama they are very naive and pure, they just believe whatever we are saying. They try to take action.
Speaker 2:And it's also true. We tend to become what we believe and say about ourselves. So if we have a belief, we can't do something. We most likely won't do it. If we have a belief and we have positive language, usually positive things happen.
Speaker 1:And even I didn't say the word. My parents were so angry when I had such emotion Because my parents said Koto Dama can hear our inside of the voice. So if I feel something, if I think something, koto Dama already have a power and they have a spirit and started attacking people.
Speaker 2:Well, it is fascinating and we could go on and we will go on with another word. And you sent me a message on LinkedIn after we had connected and spoken for the first time and you wrote Nick-san, today I was working at a company for the whole day today organizational trauma work. Then I realized how Ikigai and self-discipline worked well together to help people. Today I found the meaning of Ichien-so, so can you go into that into more detail?
Speaker 1:So Ichi Enso is different meaning for different person. Ichi Enso is perfect circle. I do Zen art therapy for my client. I created Zen art therapy in 2018 at the University of Auckland when I studied at a master degree, and I created the Zen art therapy by using each Enso concept. So Ichi Enso means, again, perfect circle, but, as same as the mathematics, there is nothing perfect circle we can make even now. But in Zen concept there is perfect circle Means Satori, nirirvana and very spiritual awareness. That is ichi enso perfect thinking, perfect world, perfect concept and integrate, contribute, combine so many different thinking, feeling everything together and we can finally find some meaning in there.
Speaker 1:So on the day when I sent the message to Nick-san, I was working at the company and a very horrible incident happened and I was helping the company staff to not to get the PTSD and I found Ichienso what is my job? What is trauma therapy, how trauma therapy work, how Ikigai concept work for my work? And I found I'm just a one piece for that company because I was working with HR and the managers and so many different people. I was just one of the piece at the team and I have never met them, but we found very strong connection and we found very good way of supporting people and we have done a wonderful job, very good way of supporting people and we have done a wonderful job.
Speaker 1:It's a perfect moment, with professionalism, compassion, love. Everything is perfect, and I found Ichienso, and also Ichienso is talking about not only perfect. Ichienso means our life will not be lasting for forever. For example, even if we feel very happy or if we met some partner, we may divorce, we may separate, even if we have a very successful life, it's not lasting forever. No one can be CEO for 100 years. It's not last for forever. No one can be CEO for 100 years. When we are born, we will go to die, our life will always have end, but Ichienzo means each different beautiful piece, small piece, is connecting each other and create the circle each moment. So Ichi Enso have different meaning.
Speaker 2:Thank you for sharing that. I think our listeners might be familiar with Enso. Often you see it in calligraphy and you just see the circle and it looks very beautiful actually. And I guess Ichi Enso is meaning this Is it one circle or is it one part of the circle?
Speaker 1:One circle. But again, ichi Enso's one meaning is satori awareness. The second meaning Ichi Enso means our life will not last forever. Happiness will not last forever. Success will not last forever, but even that moment was finished. Not last forever. Happiness will not last forever. Success will not last forever, but even that moment was finished. Like making bracelet, for example, like a juzu. Do you know? Juzu, niku-san right.
Speaker 2:Crab beads yeah.
Speaker 1:We just connect with a different piece and then we make circle. That is another Ichienso meaning. Another Ichienso meaning is when we have circle and if we go through the circle we will go to the different world, For example, reality, spiritual world, present, future or past. To present, there are lots of meaning, like a door to another world as well, so it tends to have different meaning.
Speaker 2:That's often depicted in movies sci-fi movies People tend to go through a circle rather than a square. So that's interesting. I've also read. Sometimes the circle will be closed, maybe representing perfection, and sometimes it's slightly open or not connecting to suggest imperfection. But it's very beautiful and simplistic, but philosophically very deep and also it seems to reflect the truth about the world and nature.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when I do Zen art therapy and when I suggest to my client to draw their Itchian soul and many of my clients draw lots of different circles, or some people try to draw the perfect circle and it's fine. It's each person's Ichi Enso, but Ichi Enso will have a power, so that artwork will help them to keep having the chainsaw in their mind.
Speaker 2:Sounds like you're helping a lot of people, not just your clients, but also your co-workers, and we talked about this and I did ask how do you handle the stress of your job, and you shared with me it wasn't really stressful that it's one of your ikigai, yes. So I'd love to leave with a quote from your website, and that is Love is patient, love is kind, it always protects, always trusts, always perseveres. I trust the person who takes action, not words. Love means forgiving and being kind, not being strong. This is my philosophy. I think you practice this love in your work and the work that you do, you help others when they are going through extreme situations. So thank you for doing that for the world and for, I guess, more closely, the people in New Zealand. Yeah, I think you're a very rare person and very special. I'm glad I met you.
Speaker 1:I'm a little bit crazy and quite unusual, because I love trauma work, I love suicide work, I love criminal work, I love suicide work, I love criminal work, but because I believe this is my Ikigai.
Speaker 2:I think we need people like you, so thank you for doing the work and being who you are, and I'd like to end with what are some of your Ikigai outside of work.
Speaker 1:Outside of my work. My Ikigai is my daughter. I have a daughter and she's everything for me. Her name is very similar with my name Hana is flower, meaning flower. I gave the name flower for her because I love my name. I means love, but I cannot give her the same name. But I had an image when I had her, like a very tiny, tiny flower in the mountain, and maybe no one will not notice the flower in the mountain, but I thought the flower will help people If someone, for example, try to kill themselves, try to find a tree to hang themselves. And when they saw the flower small one, oh it's pretty, oh she's very strong. Maybe I have ikigai, maybe I can stay here. Maybe I have Ikigai, maybe I can stay here. That's why I gave her the name Flower to help people. Even maybe no one will not notice her. So that's why my company name is Hana, counseling Her name, and that is my Ikigai.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. Well, thank you for sharing that, and so that's how people can reach out to you your website is hannahcounselingcom, so thank you very much for your time today, aisan, and sharing all your wisdom, and for the work that you do. I really enjoyed catching up with you again thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I feel energy, a destiny, destiny with Nick-san. You understand the Japanese concept, you are very Japanese, you're very special. You're very traditional Japanese and very smart, very intelligent, very caring. I can feel you want to help people by your podcast. I think you're doing an amazing job and you do it in Jesus every day. So thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, that's very kind. Japan is very important to me, and obviously the Japanese people, and this concept has changed my life, and so I feel very grateful to have these conversations.
Speaker 1:Maybe you were similar in the past.
Speaker 2:Sounds romantic Sounds romantic, sounds fascinating. Maybe I like to think so. Thank you so much, aisan.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much Okay.