The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Anxiety as a Compass: Exploring Ikigai, Empathy, and Emotional Wellbeing with Catherine Deeks Gnocchi
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Anxiety isn’t a malfunction to be silenced; it’s a message asking to be heard. We sit down with therapist and educator Catherine Deeks Gnocchi to rethink fear through the lenses of evolution, mindfulness-based psychotherapy, and Japanese ikigai—revealing how anxiety can guide you back to your values and toward a life that actually fits.
Catherine breaks down the nervous system in plain language: anxiety mobilizes the sympathetic “protect” response, while empathy and connection restore the parasympathetic “recover” state. We trace how early defenses like fawning or avoidance become adult habits, why shame can freeze growth, and how healthy guilt, curiosity, and self-compassion help us update old patterns.
Catherine shares insights from her research on anxiety and empathy among university students, why these traits can rise together in demanding environments, and how lived experience of suffering often deepens compassion.
From there, we get practical. We map values-based therapy, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and Self-Determination Theory into simple steps: clarify values, spot triggers, name roles, and take small, repeatable actions that honor who you are.
We explore ikigai as everyday meaning—not a grand purpose but a daily feeling found in small rituals, mindful walks, shared meals, and moments of real connection. Ibasho, a sense of belonging you can carry anywhere, becomes the anchor for authenticity across life’s roles. Along the way, two mantras keep us grounded: thoughts are not facts, and anxiety is your friend.
If you’re ready to replace reflex with awareness and turn fear into direction, this conversation offers science, story, and tools you can use today. Listen, share with someone who needs it, and if it resonated, subscribe and leave a review so more people can find the show.
Anxiety Reframed As A Compass
SPEAKER_00For me, my focus is on getting this message across that anxiety is not a disorder, that anxiety, when it is understood, is a compass. And that's the basis of my approach.
SPEAKER_01My guest today on the Ikiguy podcast is Katherine Deeks Nocki. Catherine is a therapist educator whose work focuses on emotional well-being, self-awareness, and life satisfaction. Her approach draws on Ikiguy, mindfulness-based psychotherapy, and evolutionary psychology. In June of 2025, she completed a Master's of Science in Psychology, researching the evolutionary roots of anxiety and empathy. Catherine is an associate member therapist at the International Mental Health and Counseling Clinic in Tokyo and the founder of Estiba Shol, where she helps people understand anxiety as meaningful information and cultivate emotional balance, clarity of values, and sense of purpose and belonging. And Catherine is a good friend and also one of my most successful Ikigai tribe coaches. Welcome to the podcast, Catherine.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, Nick. It's great, great to be here with you.
SPEAKER_01As always, we caught up in November and only for one day, but had a lot of fun with your friend and always have good times when we catch up. Now you completed my Ikigai coach certification in May last year, along with June Cashio, who was a guest on this podcast episode 101, and we talked about Ikigai and loss. Since then, you have achieved quite a lot: a master's degree, a promotion, and had great success integrating Ikigai into your role as therapist. So I think 2025 was a really good year for you.
SPEAKER_00It was a really good year. It was really a meaningful year with plenty of Ikigai sources, especially being here in Japan, meeting up or reconnecting with old friends, personal growth, development, my job, and my family, which are my main roles, which give me a real sense of Ikigai can.
SPEAKER_01Yes. When did you move to Tokyo? I mean, fairly recently, like a year and a half ago?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we moved here in August 2024. We moved from Hong Kong, where we had been also, we'd be we've been there for four years, and we moved here with my husband for his job and uh with some of our children.
SPEAKER_01And how has the lifestyle been for you?
Catherine’s Background And Research Focus
SPEAKER_00The lifestyle is this lifestyle of being able to walk mindfully in the streets, being able to have respect for personal space, everything that Japan offers in that respect, where, well, this respect, respect for boundaries, respect for people, for values, for customs, traditions. Yeah, it's really a wonderful place for us to live and to really practice. I think what is very important to me and to my family and to to the work that I do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is a good environment. It slows you down, gives you more awareness, and of course, there's all the wonderful food and and culture to explore. So I can't wait to get back.
SPEAKER_00And I can't wait to have you back, Nick.
Evolutionary Roots Of Anxiety And Empathy
SPEAKER_01Oh, great. Thank you. You're you're a very good host, and so your amazing family, and uh yeah, I can't wait to have another meal. So I look forward to that. So, as I mentioned, last year in June, you completed your degree of Master of Science in Psychology with your research dissertation for which you were awarded a distinction, titled The Impact of Anxiety on Cognitive and Affective Empathy in Undergraduate Students, an evolutionary psychology perspective. And this was a quantitative study that examined the relationship between anxiety and two types of empathy, cognitive empathy and affective empathy. I think it would be helpful to first define anxiety and these two types of empathy.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so anxiety and empathy are adaptive evolutionary traits. So they're something that we have had since the very beginning. So they're very important in our evolutionary history and in order to help us to adapt and to survive and thrive. And so anxiety helps us to survive. In evolutionary terms, I mean for it made us aware of our predator. So when we were in a state of threat, we were able to go into that reaction mode. So the fight, flight, freeze, and now we have a new one formed in the contemporary world. So anxiety was very much about helping us to survive. Whereas empathy is for, and both types of empathy, affective and cognitive. Empathy is for social cohesion, cooperative caregiving, reduced intragroup aggression, and it was there to help us to thrive. And in terms of the our, so they were defense mechanisms, which we have our built-in defense mechanism, which protects us, which is our nervous system. And anxiety is what activates the sympathetic nervous system, and the empathy is what activates our parasympathetic. So just anxiety is when you are in a state of threat, and empathy is when you are in your state of rest and recover.
SPEAKER_01There you go. So they help us survive, even though anxiety is often very uh unpleasant and stressful. And I I've shared with you, I I used to be quite anxious and had this tendency to worry, to the point where I used to worry about worrying, which wasn't very healthy. And I I was missing that you, Toddie, which we both love that concept as well, that I guess a sub theory of Ickigai. But what originally drew you to explore the relationship between anxiety and empathy?
SPEAKER_00So it was when I was doing my research for well, when I was studying for my for my master's, and I had the two modules which I was really enjoying, one was neuroscience and one was lifespan development. And in the neuroscience, I'm not at all a scientist, but it was just really started resonating with me about the nervous system. And I started to become more and more interested in that and about the way that it works, and also the fact that different traits that we have are related to the regulation of that nervous system. So then also the fact that we have anxiety is everywhere, everybody has anxiety, and then I wanted to understand a little bit more about why anxiety is actually always considered a disorder. And when you think about even just the word anxiety, it comes from there's a Greek meaning which is it comes from choking or constriction. And so even the word anxiety focuses on the physical symptoms, but not on the emotions, not on the feelings, and not on the root of that anxiety. So then I also, whenever I went into a place, not being religious in any way, but a bit spiritual, whenever I went into a temple or even a church or a place of calm, I always felt this calm come over me. And so then I also started becoming more interested in how I could get into that sort of mindful state and into a state of calmness and tranquility. So that's how it sort of all started.
SPEAKER_01Nice. And I remember you would tell me anxiety is or can be your friend. And a key takeaway from your paper, from your dissertation, is that rather than viewing anxiety purely as a disorder that you just mentioned, it can be understood as meaningful information that can be regulated rather than suppressed. So do you want to expand on that?
Anxiety As Meaningful Information
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so anxiety actually not even just not even regulated, but it when it's understood, then it can really be your friend. Because much like in evolutionary time, so anxiety is uh almost a construct, it's a word that we use, but anxiety we can replace it with fear, being uncomfortable, having that gut feeling that something's wrong. And so anxiety, when you understand the the causes or the triggers of it, then it helps you to decide how to react. And also it helps you to understand what to do. So, for example, when you are feeling anxious and perhaps you have got something like, for example, coming to this podcast, I knew that I wanted to have a good discussion with you. And so, of course, there was before it I was feeling a little bit there was a little bit of nervousness or whatever. And so, but I understood why that was. And so it's the same when we use anxiety, when we look at it, when we're more mindful of it, then it really becomes our compass and it really helps us as we go through life. Also, anxiety was used to be for predators, so to tell us that there was a predator and so that we could either fight or flee. So obviously, predators are not the same as what they used to be, and this is nowadays the predator is more about us coming from a conflict perhaps with our values or a conflict with what we really believe, and so it it makes us so the predator can also help us to realize when our authentic self is actually being threatened. And so that's where also ikigai or mindfulness, all of these or all of these practices which to help us to become more self-aware are really key in helping to befriend that anxiety.
SPEAKER_01It is fascinating how the threat and the anxiety back in the days where there were predators was obviously very real. Like you could die if you didn't respond to this awareness and anxiety about your surroundings. And now it seems that much of our anxiety is forecasted and of our imagination and definitely not life-threatening, yet it impedes us at times and makes life very uncomfortable. So is it also of the mind? Like it's just this imagination we have and this tendency to think, oh, things will go bad rather than things will go well.
Triggers, Beliefs, And The Nervous System
SPEAKER_00I think because anxiety is we are in the state of threat when we are feeling anxious. And so our reaction is often connected to past experiences or past triggers and thoughts, which when we were when we were younger, in order to fit in, for example, we would have certain habits to help us to fit in or to be part of the social group. So when that was something successful and we were made to feel the way, for example, that we were responding or reacting to a situation that was putting us into a state of threat or into a state of anxiety, then our defense would be intact. Then we would it becomes sort of like a belief. And so we would we would subconsciously think that, okay, that's that works, that protects me. And so often the way that we react when we're in a state of anxiety is connected to those past triggers, but it's not necessarily the real feeling that we are experiencing in the present. So that's why often it seems that there's often this disconnect, and it's not by not understanding anxiety and by not understanding the triggers of it, and by not befriending it, then we are unable to evolve and we're unable to adapt, to then continue to thrive.
SPEAKER_01I see, yes, it's interesting we have triggers, and if we're aware of these triggers, I guess then we can respond appropriately. And so it highlights the importance of being aware. Like, oh, is this I'm triggered, I'm I'm worried, but is is the threat really there? Is this behavior, is this learned behavior or a false belief? So, how much would you say awareness matters to understanding or regulating your anxiety?
SPEAKER_00I think it's the the key. And I think it's self-awareness because self-awareness, especially in terms of your values and in and and your strengths. So something that we look at, for example, in Ikigai or especially in the in the Kemp framework, uh in your framework, is where we start by looking at values and where we right from the beginning, we look at core core strengths or character strengths. And then when we see, when we're aware of what perhaps is being threatened, then we can understand much better why we are feeling so anxious. And I think that because we have tried, because of all the social dynamics and just the world as it is now, where the evolution, these evolutionary traits, the evolution didn't really predict so well the speed of what was going to happen, especially in these past at least 30 years, where there was all of this social media, where there was technology, there was everything that was going on, which is real a real affront to our core values for many, many people, and where something like empathy, which is such an important trait, is somehow being lost in the whole mix of what's going on. And so going back to being self-aware, so awareness of values and also awareness and being kind, self-kindness, self-compassion, all of these things, which when we also talk about that within the context of the Kemp framework and thinking about also self, starting with self. And until you have, until you're an authentic in yourself, it's very difficult to have authentic relationships with others.
SPEAKER_01Well, there you go. So you're doing a good job promoting my framework. So I should thank you for that. But yeah, values, awareness, kindness, identity, role, all these things obviously help us live and thrive, but I guess they also help us understand and process anxiety. And so your study was obviously intended to see uh is there a connection between anxiety and empathy? And actually, there was no strong link revealed. So did that surprise you?
SPEAKER_00No, that didn't surprise me because also the data set, because it was for a master's degree, so the actual data set was very, very was quite limited, and also it was just in the UK, university students in the UK. So that didn't, I think, and also there's lots of other research out there that suggests that there is this link between anxiety and empathy. I think what was most surprising was that both seem, just from the study that I did, both seem to work independently of each other. But at the same time, within the university setting, both types of empathy as well as anxiety increase as the students go through their university education. So, which was really interesting for me because at one point I was hypothesizing that perhaps at least the anxiety would decrease because at the beginning, where students have to um they're they're getting used to lots of lots of new things in the university setting, and so once they're settled, but then as they go through, then there's obviously lots of other things which are going on. So passing exams, job, looking for jobs for the future, all of this sort of thing. So then it's normal, probably, that the anxiety does increase, but also the fact that the empathy increases, and whether that's also to do with the university setting being one where social cohesion is very important. It's a very collectivist society, even within that mini, that that mini society of the university setting.
Study Findings On Anxiety And Empathy
SPEAKER_01This is interesting. I was wondering if because essentially you suffer from anxiety, and when you suffer, you have this understanding of what suffering is, and then you realize you would not wish this suffering upon other people, does that then make you realize, you know, consciously, subconsciously, to have empathy? So the more suffering or more anxiety you experience, are the more compassionate or caring or kind, or the more empathy you can hold for others?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think even just even without doing any research, but just in our experience, not in our experience of life, that often it's you can see that people who have perhaps higher anxiety, because they're able, because that yes, because maybe the the feeling, the emotion, that the this awareness then allows them also to be more empathic. But that's just from a non, that's not at all scientific based, that's just from my experience also of life, um, working with people, even in even in an education setting, even when I was teaching before I then became a therapist. So I think again, just because it's these are traits which are part of our system, and so it's quite clear and logical when you think of it within the nervous system. So it's anxiety is to help you survive, you know, that fear is to help you to survive, and then the empathy is to help you to thrive. And so even without the connection between the two, just by looking at the role of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, then we can understand it as being traits which are necessary for all of us to be able to adapt, to grow, to change, to have flexibility and resilience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would say I agree. That's that's been my lived experience too. The people in my network who've have suffered the most or had more loss seem to be more understanding and empathic. So that's obviously maybe one of the positives from suffering and having anxiety. You become more caring and and understanding. So it's all very interesting, but something interesting and exciting is that you were recently promoted to associate member and therapist at Tokyo International Mental Health and Counseling. So, congratulations on that. Would you like to talk about your role there and the work that you do?
Therapeutic Approach And Values-Based Work
SPEAKER_00So, my role is I have my clients online. We have an have a platform online, and it's really about for me, my focus is on getting this message across that anxiety is not a disorder, that anxiety, when it is understood, is a compass. And that's the basis of my approach. Using then, with within that approach, using frameworks like the acceptance and commitment therapy, the self-determination, so using the the three psychological needs of relatedness, competence, and autonomy, and mindfulness, and of course the the Kemp uh framework, but the ikigai, Japanese ikigai as a whole. So it's really about going back to this values-based therapy, because once you live a life which is respectful of your values, then you can only be empowered. And then the loss of self-esteem that perhaps you had when you were younger and trying to fit in and trying to do this fourth one of the fight, flight, threes, which we now know is we see as fawn, which is where you appease or you please people by saying things perhaps that you think you need to say without it really being something that you truly believe, but it's so that you can fit in and avoid conflict. And so so many people do that all the time. And so it's normal that they remain in that. State of threat or that state of anxiety. And so what I try to do with my clients is really look. So go back to see what their triggers, which often are from that feeling that when they were younger or we're younger, that we get this shame feeling, which is this of being embarrassed or something that happened, and that you subconsciously try never to have that feeling again. So which then becomes this belief, and that moving from that shame state into this healthy guilt state where you can really reason and see whether actually you need to be in a state of threat for a certain for a certain reason. And so that's what it's really about, this message of being your authentic self, living in a way which is aligned with your values, and then your anxiety will be not the disorder which it has become very much known for. I think that that's really, really key for me, Nick, about that anxiety isn't something that we have to fear, and it's not something because actually we don't like the state that we get into. So it where it manifests when it becomes out of control or overwhelming, where we become uh we it manifests as panic attacks or burnout or even anger, anger issues, because it's everything, it's all the vulnerable emotions that go underneath that that create that, and that's what we look at. It's a really empowering journey and an exciting journey. Ken Moggy talks about Oshi, for example, being an idol, and he he said at one point, you know, why not we we idolize all these other people? Why not idolize ourselves and then be proud of our ourselves and have faith in what our values and what our beliefs are?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, I love Ken Moggy's wisdom. So yeah, Oshi katsu, where you generally support your idol, but to do it to yourself makes sense. But I guess we have that tendency to think of ourselves last, and we're we often put others before ourselves. So let's touch more on Ikigai, because you're having great success with it. And so, how does it fit in the picture of your therapy sessions and how are your clients responding to it?
SPEAKER_00So it fits in because right from the beginning, the first, almost the first sessions that we have, it always we we start with looking at values. We use often the values in action questionnaire that you also introduced in the in the Ikigai course. So, what basically it's about, we we take the framework and we just it's about this with Ikigai itself. So we start small, it's about that your everybody's own unique journey, the things that bring themselves satisfaction, and without comparing it with or even looking at what anybody else or the expectations of society or other people. And so it's a journey of self-discovery, of self-awareness, so that beginning with values and then looking at roles and relationships, that's a really important within the framework anyway, um, but also within this, looking at also Ibasho, so looking at especially in terms of change, because everything, all of this again goes back all the way back back to our evolutionary process. And I think one of the one of the errors that we make or something that we don't do enough is respect that evolutionary process. So I think that what the Ikigai framework really helps us to do is to respect that that process and respect the need to also adapt as you go through the lifespan by being your authentic self.
SPEAKER_01Um that is the core aspect of ibasho, this idea that you can be authentic anytime, anywhere. That's like the definition of personal ibasho. So we've talked about physical ibasho, a place where you can be comfortable and safe. Um, there's psychological, uh, there's uh social. Social often uh generates psychological. There can be private where you have utory or solitude where you want to be alone. But personally, bachelor's this idea that, yeah, you can be authentic. So authenticity matters so much. We have multiple roles, relationships, we want to be authentic in those. And even for those roles, our kind of authenticity might might have a different shade or color, but we're still being ourself in the context of that role. Because I know might be becoming cliche, oh, just be authentic self, but it it really does matter because that's what we want to be. And I guess imposter syndrome or anxiety prevents us from being authentic.
SPEAKER_00And I think that that's really true. And I think that that's that's the predator for me in my approach. When you can't be your authentic self, that's why you get into that state of anxiety. Because that's now we don't have a predator, a physical predator, which is necessarily coming out, which we have to react to. But we do the the predator is very much that. It's about stopping us from being our authentic self. And so that again that goes right back. It's very, very deep. It goes back to the reason why then you need to be aware of what is the authentic self, because society can be, and and the norms and the rules and the regulations, it can be really quite harsh on all of us, but especially when we're younger, even trying to fit in, even as parents trying to help our children fit into the side society, often we neglect to really know who our children are, the real authentic child, because we're trying so desperately to get them to fit in. So it starts quite young, actually, that we set them on this course of not being their authentic selves. So then being in this constant state of fear without realizing it. And so that's why this process of beginning to understand who your authentic self is is that's why it's so empowering, because uh once you know it, then you can live that value-aligned life.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think we'll touch on this later, but I think you and your husband Tom have done a wonderful job raising your six children.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
Authenticity, Ibasho, And Roles
SPEAKER_01They're very uh well adjusted and they're thriving and very talkative and friendly, intelligent. So, yeah, you have a wonderful family. But before we touch on your family, obviously a source of ikigai for you, how are your clients responding to these concepts or terms, ikigai, ebasho, and utori?
SPEAKER_00So at the beginning, because uh most of my clients are international, I have a few who are Japanese uh that have come back to Japan. And so the international clients, they respond more. I mean, when we talk about the ikigai, when I talk about it as a concept in Japan, then it really resonates very uh strongly with them. So, as especially as a concept or as a philosophy, which is about looking for small or starting small or these things which do not necessarily have any financial success to show that you you have you can get this icky guy. So I think that it also in that respect, it allows people to be their authentic selves and it allows them to really see what there is just around them in in nature that is free that can give them that feeling of icky guy can. And so for some people, then they will let me know that, for example, going on a on a bike ride or uh walking their dog or going on a mindful walk, or even just being at home in a space that they've created for themselves, which is where they feel safe. Those are things which they hold very strongly and that they for them that's it's very important. So I think that yeah, Ikigai in this respect and Ibasho is something that everybody can have in their life.
SPEAKER_01It's such a refreshing lens on how to look at life and purpose, and it's yeah, it's not driven by success or money, it's driven by meaning and what resonates with you, and it sort of unburdens you with all these things about life we're told matters, how you look, how much money you have, how much status you hold. And yeah, you begin to think, oh, I can really enjoy life from these smaller things, and it's surprising what small things can generate this feeling that life is worth living. Uh my son will kill me for saying this, but just before uh went into his room and we were having a chat and he sort of just grabbed my hand and we sort of held hands for you know ten seconds. And yeah, I said, ah, this is what it means to be connected to my son. And when that happens, yeah, you think life is wonderful. So it doesn't take a lot to feel that life is worth living. We seem to put so much pressure on ourselves with extrinsic value that we we're missing the intrinsic, which really matters, such as family, friends, food, fun. They were words that came to mind when I was thinking about Yoriki guy, and you have family, friends, food, fun. And I I've had the pleasure of meeting uh your family, all of your children except for one. So and obviously meeting you, Tom, uh, your your husband Tom and your and your dog. And in the acknowledgments of your dissertation, you wrote to Tom, who makes everything possible as we navigate love, life, work, and parenting according to our shared values. I've met Tom, he's charming, very gregarious, and you've raised these six wonderful children while living in multiple countries. So, do you want to touch on the shared values and how you have brought up six children who are so well adjusted, creative, intelligent, and authentic?
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you for those words. I often wonder about this. I think perhaps one of our most important values, which we have, is this value of respect, which is what I touched on right at the beginning. The respect for ourselves, for other people, for what we have right in front of us, are the nature. And I think that that's when you have respect for also for other people's personal space and also kindness, non-judgment. I think that those are the things that we've brought up six, six third culture kids. And so they don't judge people where they're from, their social position, they just accept. And I think that is something which is really, really important and which we are missing in in a lot of what's what's going on today. Again, going back to this judgment and and lack of respect. And so I think that that's those are really the key values, I think, as we navigate this life.
Family Values, Parenting, And Belonging
SPEAKER_01Well, they certainly shine through in your children. So you yeah, it's always a joy to have a quick chat with your I mean they of course they're polite, but it's more than that. They're very yeah, very authentic and friendly and kind. And I think that comes from you and your husband. And I I think you find Ikigai and feel Ikigai in your roles. So mother, wife, friend, therapist, facilitator, educator, teacher. The list could go on and on. Do you want to talk about that? How role is a source of Ikigai for you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so for a very long time, my role, well, it still is, but my my primary role has been as a mother. And I think for a long time also in in society, that role of a mother is not necessarily really validated by society because society validates when you go into the workplace, you earn a certain amount of money. And so, but it was something, a role which for me has brought me immense pleasure, joy, sometimes sadness, a lot of anxiety, but which is really a role which I would never change for anything, any amount of money. Also, when I when I started my career, when I I started first as a teacher, I was teaching in in Vietnam. And I think it's the same sort of role. It's this role of educator, which I also have. So for my family, it was what I was doing in my workplace, and which I still continue to do now. So I think it's it's always that the role doesn't really change because for me it's about helping others, is is perhaps one role, but also just in in this transference of of these skills, these emotional intelligence skills. And that's in a way a role which I've carved out for myself.
SPEAKER_01Well, you certainly are an educator, and with that comes that love of learning. And in addition to completing your master's last year, you also completed courses on cultivating emotional balance foundations and positive psychological and transformative practice. And also a few other certifications, so in mindful-based psychotherapy in Hong Kong. So to reference Mirko Kamiya, one of her needs, her Hingo needs that she uncovered was this desire to change and grow. So I think you love to grow as a person. So where does that come from?
SPEAKER_00I'm not sure where it comes from, but I know that when we were living in Hong Kong, and we we had a wonderful setup, it was a wonderful life and with great people. But I couldn't quite find my role. It was the first time that my children had started leaving home and going to university, and so my role was beginning to change. And the values of some of the Hong Kong society was very different from what I was used to or expecting. But at the same time, Hong Kong gave me, for example, this mindful. I went to study this mindfulness course, and also I went, and at that time I went to Tseshan Monastery, and that's where I had not an epiphany at all, but it was it was a place which brought me this incredible sense of peace. And there, the there's the institute in the monastery where they where they're doing a lot of work on kindfulness, mindfulness, and that that's where I think that resonated so strongly with me. And I went to a conference there, which was with two wonderful academics, Dr. Emiliana Simon Thomas and Dr. Eve Ekman. And they are very, very well known in their field for compassion, compassionate um living and research. And uh, and so that was where then I really felt this absolute need to learn much, much more about what they were, what they were teaching, and also what the monastery as a whole and the Buddhist philosophy teaches. And that's then what brought me then to looking in when I then arrived in in Japan, and that's when I started looking a little bit more at ikigai and the meaning of Ikigai, and then that's what brought me to learning your framework. So uh yeah, that's I think that that's that's where it comes from. Because when something resonates so strongly, then it just pushes me to want to learn much, much more. And it's when I then become really convinced by something, uh, probably that's where it's from.
SPEAKER_01You want to dig deeper, yeah. Yeah. I found that true of myself. If I something fascinates me, naturally, you want to get into all the details and go deeper. But you balance this out, I think, with your love of entertaining. And I was gonna ask you, how did that party go on Boxing Day?
Lifelong Learning And Kindfulness
SPEAKER_00So, Boxing Day, that's always been our tradition, every Boxing Day. So Christmas Day is always about family, and then Boxing Day is always about having the leftovers and and more with uh family and friends. So this year we had more, we had colleagues as well. And yeah, it's just a a time to be able to connect together where everybody is can just be who they want to be. It was next year, perhaps, Nick, you can uh you'll be able to join us. Yeah, it was a it was a it's always a good, it's always a good occasion. I think parties or entertainment, yeah, it's been a big theme of our family life. And especially having six children who now are grown up and who are great at the whole entertainment, uh cooking, helping, uh, all of that. So um, yeah, it becomes much, much easier actually.
SPEAKER_01Nice. Well, I'll look forward to that. Maybe this year or or next year, definitely next year. Should be back in Japan by then. Now, do you want to talk about Estibasho? Your your brand and what what that means, and what's what's planned with that?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so Estibasho is it's a brand which is very it's a baby brand, it's very in the in the early stages. So it's the two words from Estia uh and Ibasho. And Estia was the goddess, the Greek goddess uh of the hearth or the home, family, and then Ibasho, so the the Japanese for safe place or place of belonging or um comfortable, comfortable place, and so which resonate obviously with me that's yeah, those two, Estia and Ibasho, are very important to me. And so I join those words together, and that's it's a community. So I have my Instagram, which is a community where people can uh exchange or or just learning a bit more about what Ihi or Ibasho means and what it means to befriend anxiety. And hopefully that brand will then go even further, sort of bringing bringing elements from also the things that we do as a family. Well, we have products like in we have our home in Italy where we have olive oil, which we produce, and so that eventually to have not just products which will then be part of this whole Estibachot wellness, and then to start also to do once we get back to Italy, to do some more things there related to this therapeutic journey.
SPEAKER_01Love it. You gifted me some of your wonderful olive oil. I've been enjoying that. So yeah, you have a lot of ikigo in your life. You do, with family, friends, food, fun, connecting with people, and I'm really glad we're connected. It's weird. It I feel like we've been connected for years, but it's it's probably only been I don't know, like a year. So it's uh wonderful friendship. And there are these two mantras that now I remember and from time to time think of that you've shared with me is anxiety is your friend, and thoughts are not facts. So thank you for sharing those with me. They've been very helpful.
SPEAKER_00I'm glad, yeah. They're but they're great, they're great, especially anxiety is your friend, and also thoughts are not facts because often we because thoughts and thoughts and feelings go hand in hand, and so but often thoughts are in the past, but then the the feeling that we're having is in the in the present. And so if the thought is in the past and it becomes a a fact, then the way that we feel, especially if it was a negative thought, then the feeling that we have in the present is is negative. And that's what I think also this journey is about. I mean that what Miyako Kamiya with growth, I think it's it's also that when you take anxiety in the way that this evolutionary trait and evolution is about adapting and being able to change. And I think that that's in the end, it's not when this process is not about changing who somebody is, it's just about changing the the reactions, and so we don't use any more those habitual reactions which uh are which we have in the state of threat, but that we then go to we change to respond mindfully, which we have in that state of peace when we activate our parasympathetic nervous. system. So that's also with that in the those two mantras as well, it it applies to that transformative process.
SPEAKER_01It seems to take us back to awareness to be aware, okay, this thought is not a fact. Is it is it really true? Because these, yeah, as you said, these thoughts are generating these feelings. And then it then it feels real. But a night but yeah it might be based on a false belief or yeah so it's fascinating how oh it seems to come back if we can be aware in the moment we can question things and then maybe make a a more informed decision or or just feel less anxious. You're very kind. So I thought we could end with this word kindfulness. Do you want to share what that's all about?
Estibasho Vision And Everyday Ikigai
SPEAKER_00Yeah so this is also something which is coming from Sean Monastery in Hong Kong and with the these uh professors these academics who I who I mentioned so it's just about taking kindness and mindfulness and putting them together and so it's about a journey of being present so being mindful and when you're present you can be kind to yourself and to others because when you're mindful and present you are in that state of relax and recover and where social cohesion and uh is is something or not just social cohesion but everything that goes with it that nurturing that time where you can pause and so that mindfulness with kindness goes really when you put it hand in hand it goes really very far to creating a society which can thrive. I like it so maybe that's the message we can leave with our listeners thinking about this kindfulness this mindful approach to living and especially of yourself I guess is the message right and also because we stopped being very good at self-soothing we became really good when we were become when we were regulating our yeah emotions or this and protecting ourselves we became very good at self-criticism but not so good at self-soothing or for giving ourselves a break and so I think that that's what this this also this um promotes that so that you can instead of just it's it's less about emotional again emotional regulation it's about emotional awareness where you can also give yourself a break by saying that perhaps you're being too hard on yourself. So be a bit kinder on yourself as well.
SPEAKER_01I love it so let's all do that be kinder to ourselves and if anyone would like to reach out to you or work with you Catherine maybe in Tokyo in Japan or outside where can they find you where can they reach out to you?
SPEAKER_00So on my Instagram there's the SD Basho Instagram but also on my LinkedIn um on your website and also on the on my work website as well but uh yeah I think that those uh plenty even just starting starting with your website well we'll put all those uh other links in the show notes so people can reach out to you and find you and maybe have a chat with you so as always it's good to touch base and I'll probably see you in May so that's something to look forward to. Absolutely thank you so much Nick well and and thank you because I mean really this journey wouldn't have been the same if I hadn't found you and met you and started really learning about uh all of these approaches that you and and these philosophies actually that you um you teach us about. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you it's a wonderful journey to share with you and I'm looking forward to what we'll share in the future.
SPEAKER_00Brilliant thank you