75. The Pandemic and Beyond with Clive Webb, Head of Business Management, ACCA

In this episode of CFO 4.0, Hannah Munro talks to Clive Webb, Head of Business Management at ACCA. Clive deals with business and technology-related matters from the perspective of the CFO.

 This episode covers the Pandemic and Beyond for finance, and also explores the research Clive carried out about the pandemic, and also the future of finance as a function.

Also covered in this episode:

• Update on current research in the ACCA professional insights team
• COVID and the shift it has created within the role of finance
• Impact of volatility has had on the demands from the finance organisation
• New data skill sets needed within finance teams
• The importance of technology to the future of finance

Links referenced in this episode:
Clive's LinkedIn
ACCA Website
Finance's Journey to the Future Article

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Transcript

Ad 1: 0:01

Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work, drive your career forwards, and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Munro, Managing Director of ITAS, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people, and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

Hannah Munro: 0:50

So hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. I'm very pleased to announce that on this week's episode we have Clive Webb from the ACCA. So he's going to talk to us a little bit about his research and particularly into the shift from the pandemic, what has happened in finance and what that means for finance in the future. So welcome Clive, fabulous to have you on the show with me today.

Clive Webb: 1:15

Nice to be here Hannah, thank you for inviting me.

Hannah Munro: 1:18

No, it's great. So for those that may not have come across your research, do you want to tell us a little bit about your role at ACCA and what you do particularly within this space?

Clive Webb: 1:31

Okay, so I'm part of a group in ACCA, which is called Professional Insights. And our role is to provide thought leadership that helps influence and shape the profession. And we do that with our members, with collaborative partners in this space. The research we're talking about here are collaborative partners, PwC, but we collaborate with others as well. And we also respond to consultations and give feedback to potential regulatory changes and so on. So my role in that team is to look after the future of the finance function and whatever that may be from skills and technology and the role of the CFO and the role of the function and all of these things.

Hannah Munro: 2:16

No, absolutely. So tell us a little bit about the latest research that we're going to talk about today.

Clive Webb: 2:23

Okay, so I think the one we're talking about actually goes back a little bit in time. And this is about the future of the finance function. Over the past three years, we've been building a series of pieces which look at the finance function and how it's developing. role of insight and the role of the finance business partner and then actually what then pandemic did to that journey and that's the research we're going to talk about I think.

Hannah Munro: 2:57

Yes and so I think it might be interesting to almost understand sort of obviously the pandemic has had a huge impact on all of us not just in finance but Tell us a little bit about the state of play before the pandemic. What were some of the insights that you were seeing from research prior to the pandemic in terms of what people thought is the future of finance?

Clive Webb: 3:19

Okay. So I think the easiest way to explain it is to visualize a triangle. And it was a balance between three things. So there's a traditional role of finance, which is all about transactional processing. and getting the numbers right and getting the data in and all of that. Then there's the piece of compliance and control in which you can put internal external reporting and all the bits of internal control and all the other bits that go with it. At the top of that, we've got insight. And I think what we've seen is the shift between that traditional role of collecting the data and verifying the data, reporting the data, how we then started to use it in organizations. And our first piece of research really focused on the need for the finance function to think about its future strategy. So where was it going to go and how was it going to capitalize on this? We then brought it out in the second piece of research to say, actually, if that is the journey, what is the breadth of that journey? Because obviously, we have this looming thing called net zero or whatever you want to term it as. And the role of finance in non-financial information and how we view performance and how we view organizational success is probably changing. And what we've seen is that actually we need to think broader across a range of how we define performance because not only are organizations increasingly thinking about their public view and recently we've seen some catastrophes of public view and public perception but also how that then links to things like cost of capital which increasingly have this ESG tag attached to them so organizational purpose And how do you measure purpose and how do you measure performance? That's a broader agenda than simply a financial. Financial is absolutely important. But we've also got to think of natural and human and manufactured and intellectual and social and responsible capitals too. So that was a journey that we envisage finance being very much on. And a lot of our members were firmly saying, well, yeah, that's where we need to be. So how do we get there?

Hannah Munro: 5:53

And has the, obviously, the joys of COVID, has that impacted that for you? Have you seen a shift in how people perceive finance and the role of finance during that time?

Clive Webb: 6:06

I think COVID and the pandemic has done two things for the finance community. The first is, perhaps as we would say as accountants rather obviously, stress the relevance of CFOs started talking about, well, actually, we were invited to meetings that we'd never been invited to. We became part of the conversation in organizations as a fundamental part when, historically, we might have been left out. And the reason for that is enabling organizations to flex and change almost a drop of a hat. And I think if we go back two years in our minds, Organizations also changed dramatically. The traditional channels to market had disappeared. We weren't allowed out. So a lot became e-commerce type solutions, whether you're large or small businesses. And that requires different interactions, different systems, but also a more regular, up-to-date understanding of what... performance actually meant. So how were we tracking? What were we doing? What were the impacts of what we were doing? One CFO characterized it as traditionally we talk about, okay, sales have gone from 100 to 120 because they've gone up. Well, we can't say that anymore. The question is, why did they go up? Is that 20% change because We've sold more or we've sold different things or the mix has changed or we've increased our prices. But crucially, is that going to keep happening? Is our trajectory beyond what we've seen historically 20, 40, 60, 80? We don't know, but can we interpret that data? So the finance team became the heart of the data conversation. How do we interpret that data? How do we tell the story? How do we move forwards to actually have a predictive conversation rather than a historic one? And I think that that shift brought finance very much to the fore because organizations in the pandemic essentially became data hungry and needed people to analyze and interpret them. That flex and change, the five years in five months mantra, which maybe we've overused a bit, has become the reality of the more collaborative society of organisations. So finance teams started to become more involved in decision making, more involved in steps and stages as we move forward. So that's all to the good. So if you visualise that triangle again, that extent of insight has increased, but also the bits On the bottom, so the compliance and the transaction efficiency, they've also gone up. So finance worked a lot harder, absolutely, but it did it with more focus towards helping businesses survive and grow. And dare I say, the trend going forwards, let's face it, we've got economic uncertain times now, and that need to look forward is as important, if not less important. as same as it was in the pandemic, the changing times haven't gone away.

Hannah Munro: 9:41

No, volatility, I think, is everywhere. We just thought we were through it with COVID. And then obviously, the challenges around Russia and Ukraine have emerged. And I'm sure there will be something else. So that whole concept of living in volatile times, I think, has never been more apt. at this stage and it is really interesting to hear what you're saying because that echoes a lot of the conversations that I've had both on the podcast and obviously in my day job is that the need for information is both greater and also the need for speed within that information is increasing rapidly so people are willing to wait till the end of the month to know what they did last month so in terms of that pressure for more information for faster information what does that done to the role of finance like is that changed anything in terms of the roles that people have or the numbers they have in finance or is it just been given to the existing you know the existing finance staff

Clive Webb: 10:41

I think that that's a very good question because there is no one clear answer to the question if I may say and I think it does a bit depend on organisational size as well Clearly, that ability to use information requires almost, if we step back a bit, an investment in technologies in cloud solutions. If we think about those, they're quite accessible in reality to smaller organizations. The larger organizations probably were on some kind of trajectory to cloud-based solutions. best of breed, digital core, whatever phrase you want to use, right in the middle is actually quite tough and challenging. And I think we shouldn't forget that there is still a need and some organizations struggle to get that investment, particularly in the mid-tier organizations, and have the right software that enables them to collect that data, etc. And I think... The importance of that going forwards as we more and more look to sustainability-driven reporting, ESG-driven reporting, is going to mean that finance teams need to master that space. So that investment in this volatile time, as you just called it, Hannah, as a CFO, where do you play? Because you need to invest, but you need to control costs. And that is going to be very difficult. What's it therefore mean for finance teams? I think we started to see role shifts. We've seen the importance of the finance business partner, those that can take the data, interpret the data, help and support the decision, and monitor them, drive the decision-making forwards for the organization. Those roles have become vital, I think, in many organizations. And that doesn't mean that somebody that... doesn't have a transactional focus, primarily can't be a business partner as well. And particularly in mid-tier and small organizations, it's doing both. But somebody characterized it, a CFO of a large local corporate characterized it for me. Storytelling is probably the greatest skill accountants need going forwards.

Hannah Munro: 13:09

Yeah, I know. I love that. I did a cracking podcast with a chap from the US on how you structure stories around data. Because storytelling isn't something that comes on the agenda, isn't it? When you look at the accountant's role in finance, storytelling doesn't appear. And actually, because it has an implication that it's about something that is fiction versus fact. And actually, for me, it's about how you structure data. the giving of information to non-financial individuals is really interesting. So how do you put a narrative around it? How do you have those conversations with individuals and how do you display information in a way that allows them to understand it? And I think that's an interesting piece. And it's storytelling, how do you tell a narrative, but also how do you communicate to non-finance people? people the information that you've got I think that's a really interesting skill set to develop as well

Clive Webb: 14:08

I keep coming back every time I talk about this to the trusted advisor equation that Meister has and it is about and I'll try and get this right it is about integrity so are you telling that story in the right way confidentiality are you giving the right view of it you can destroy that by acting your own self-interest. So you need to be reliable, the last part of the upper part of that equation. Are you telling the story in the right way? And if you think about that, that trusted advisor work, which traditionally you might think of management consultant, tight speak, is increasingly the role of the accountant and the finance professional. Are we trusted advisors? At whatever level, from the CFO down to anybody in the organization, whatever level you are in the hierarchy, you have to be a trusted advisor. You have to have that analytical skill, but also to tell the story and not act in your own self-interest, to look to how you build trust. And I love that insightful person you said, how do you tell that story credibly? And that is absolutely vital, I think, for for roles of finance officials. It doesn't mean the technical skill isn't important because that starts with how do I know what story to tell? But it's actually telling the story and convincing people of the story that's important.

Hannah Munro: 15:45

Yeah, and like you said earlier, I think it's harder, a lot harder in mid-sized organisations because obviously that crossover between the operational and that transactional role is much greater. You can't always have a dedicated resource for that narrative building, storytelling, business partner role. And was that reflected in some of the research in terms of like, is there becoming more of a distinction in larger organizations? And then how are those mid-size organizations viewing the role of finance?

Unknown: 16:20

Yeah.

Clive Webb: 16:21

I think in midsize organizations, they are getting to appreciate that that need is there. And as you say, it's a question probably of being multitasking, multi-talented. And that's important. What differentiates, I think, those organizations that coped better with the pandemic than those that didn't was that access to data and that ability to analyze that data and that comes through in the research and yes in the large organizations you've got the finance business partner but some of them again can be quite transactional It is that, how do I look to the future? How do I use predictive analytics? How do I break out the barriers of simply using the spreadsheet to record what's in the past, but use the dynamic model to tell me about what might happen in the future? And I think that's the other bit of the pendulum that swung in the pandemic, is that finance teams are needed to get more used to the ability to look at the what-if rather than the what-was. So I think for mid-tier, it's how do you invest in the right way and the technologies that enable you to do that. And the other thing I think that is of concern that's coming down the line is as the large corporates increasingly require more non-financial information to sustain their own business. non-financial disclosures that they're required to have. So that's going to put pressure on the mid-tier organizations that are down the supply chains to actually have that data reliably and credibly. And then that goes down the chain again. So we've got to move forward. And I think that the future of the finance function as people that support organizational performance rather than just a pure financial lens is fundamental. In another piece of research, talking to a recruiter based in Dublin, she commented, this was sort of one year into the pandemic, that for the CVs she saw for the mid-tier, about nine out of 10 people didn't fit the expectation of what the chief executive wanted in the CFO because they didn't have that forward-thinking experience or view. And I think that's the challenge for the mid-tier is how do you grow some of those skills that the largest have, but also that the small businesses have through their access to their SMP, small, medium-sized practice, where the CFO role effectively is incorporating the advice that the accountant gives them.

Hannah Munro: 19:13

It's a hard balance, isn't it? And I guess it's that shift, yeah, that shift between FD and CFOs. whilst it doesn't feel like a big shift in actuality that's a whole that's a whole different role in itself isn't it in terms of what's expected and what people businesses want from from that financial advisor so

Clive Webb: 19:36

yes and also what the stakeholders want and we shouldn't forget it's driven by the stakeholders as well because increasingly they want a view of performance. Your cost of capital is increasingly becoming partly related to your ESG performance as much as it is your financial performance. And another thing I think we've seen is increasingly investors wanting greater accuracy of the management information because that's the real-time view rather than waiting for the financials of a year, potentially a year ago. the world has moved on. So if you make investment decisions, it's about the now. And that shifts the pendulum a bit as to the quality of the data that the finance team needs and the quality of the analysis income put

Hannah Munro: 20:27

over. Absolutely, because the CFO role can only do what a CFO is expected and wanted to do if the rest of the finance operations are functioning in a way that enables them to do so, isn't it? So it's always that balance between operationally, can we automate, can we deliver the insight that the CFO can then add their value and deliver on that strategic insight that the business is wanting to. It's really interesting, actually, that the the organizations were expecting a different skill set from that CFO, even at that mid-level, which is very interesting. So what does this mean then in terms of the structure of an organization, I guess, in terms of the roles that sit within finance? Has there been any shift within the pandemic as to the actual types of roles, or is it more about upskilling the existing people in that role and freeing up time through technology?

Clive Webb: 21:28

I think it is more about upskilling, if I'm honest. I think anywhere you go, talent is a problem. In any aspect of organizations, we know we have a talent crisis. So it is about upskilling. You asked me at the start of this conversation, what was the narrative before the pandemic? And the narrative was automation and, you know, in-patch jobs and... And we've lost that bit of the conversation. We're now talking about the opportunity of automation to help us release some of the time that we need. And it's an interesting change, I think, that we've seen. Yes, I think the skills are broadening. They need to broaden. But I don't think we're at the end of that journey either. Because... The role of the finance team understanding performance means we need to understand more and more about the business model, the use of technology, how that automates some processes, how that creates commercial advantage. Another quote, and this will show my age in part, but if you go back to the days when we implemented ERP solutions back in the day, the late 1990s, 2000s, we competed on the ability to configure that to what we perceived as our business processes. And in my time, I spent a lot of time helping organizations understand if they were in control. Now we've got to the cloud, there is a do it this way or do it this way, basically. Configuration isn't as easy. What we compete on is what we know about our customer. and how we can be more reactive and proactive with our customer based on the insight that we have. So that competition ground has changed. And I think for finance professionals, it's seeing how we use insight to support that different relationship that we have with customers. And that's important because growth will only come from better customer relationships.

Hannah Munro: 23:46

Yeah, that's really interesting because it's not just about data, is it? It's also about the processes. How agile are your processes? And how can you flex the way you work in finance to adapt to the requirements from a customer? Because obviously a few years ago, if we think about just the world of SaaS, it was all perpetual. It was all massive upfront fees for how they consume. And actually what we've seen is that shift in terms of processes. to that monthly subscription model, that on-demand usage-based billing piece, which whilst we all make sense from a customer perspective, obviously actually throws quite a few challenges in how you measure and how you capitalise and how you manage cash flow and how you manage the actual billing aspects of it and adds more complexity to the billing processes that finance also need to cope with. So it is interesting, isn't it, how you differentiate yourself as an organization come very often comes down to finance

Clive Webb: 24:52

but it's also that to extend what you just said that the business model itself has changed because no longer do we sell that solution we sell the ability to access that solution so you're right yes the revenue model has changed the revenue model is not now really just about a finite transaction, it's about an ongoing enduring relationship. And if I can get into Internet of Things and put sensors on, it's about predicting when an asset will fail in order to effectively prevent that and keep service time up. So that model that finance is using isn't a transactional billing model. It's a revenue stream model. revenue guarantee model. And that changes dramatically how you interpret the value of a customer to you. And in the supply chain world, there's a concept called cost to serve, which is, what does it cost us and what is the benefit of serving a customer? And if you take a slightly different lens to it, you suddenly start realizing what you thought was one profitable customer isn't, and some of those balances change. And I think Going back to what can the role of finance be to add to it, the question is, how do I use the data to understand what customers deserve and which are the most beneficial to us? And again, we are the masters of data. We are the masters of analysis and interpretation. We've got to get out of some of the traditional variance analysis thinking into how do we make this a more dynamic conversation?

Hannah Munro: 26:40

Yeah, and was there any insight as to how people are supporting that change and how people are creating those more dynamic conversations and shifting that role of finance? Was there any dependencies that you were spotting and seeing? I

Clive Webb: 27:01

think everything's been coloured by the pandemic, hasn't it? Because A lot of things have evolved on the fly and we're playing catch up to something now. So rather unsurprising, I don't think the research at that point sort of showed this is where the journey is going. What we're starting to see, I think, is that evolution starting to become a bit more structured. So we're starting to see organizations come out of crisis mode in some kind of normality and then starting that investment curve. So I think it's a bit early days to say how it's going to configure. What I think we have learned, though, is that the workplace of tomorrow has two facets. One, that it is more hybrid. So we will do things where we need to do them, how we need to do them, rather than presenteeism, if you want to use that phrase. The second part of it, though, is the greater value is when we are collaborative. And that's about how we work with others across the organization, how I bring my skills and talents to work with you and solving this business issue. And I think it's back to that storytelling, but it's also how finance professionals can use their core skills to be part of and embed themselves in the journey that the organization inevitably is going to go on.

Hannah Munro: 28:39

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it was really...

Clive Webb: 28:41

It's an opportunity.

Hannah Munro: 28:42

Yeah. Yes. Oh, absolutely. And I think anyone that hasn't quite spotted that, I think in some ways, obviously, the pandemic's had a huge negative impact on lots of individuals. But it is quite interesting to see the shift in thinking both from leaders, but also organizations around the concept of that hybrid workplace. I think I was reading some old research that you guys have done before the pandemic and finance perception of being able to work remotely was almost non-existent, I think, in one case. particularly in the UK, there was a view that it wasn't possible and it wouldn't happen. And actually, I can imagine that that's completely changed in the last few years in terms of how people perceive the hybrid nature of finance and just from a matter of not having to be in the office.

Clive Webb: 29:35

And I think that's right. But why have we been able to do that? Because we've taken a step forward technology. And we shouldn't forget the role that technology has played. I mean, even us having this conversation now is technology enabled. It is about how we maximize that value of technology. And I think some of our research looks particularly at digital skills. And we are too focused on digital skills being, how do I use a spreadsheet? without understanding that digital is really about how does the business create value for its business model with all the digital things that it does, no matter what kind of business it is. So it's how do we as finance professionals get into the heart of the business model and understand where technology comes from. And that helps us understand everything else that we do. And yeah, For CFOs, that's an important thing. For finance leaders, that's important. Cascading that down through the organization, it puts into context a number of changes that the accounts payable people see or the accounts seeable people see because those functions are still very real and still have tremendous appropriateness and value.

Hannah Munro: 30:58

Yeah, and I think it's a really interesting point. So one of the conversations I am having a lot now is that Actually, it's not just about, you know, can I use this technology in this particular way? But a lot of the conversations I'm having at all different levels is how do they identify the right technology to use in the right instance? How do they embed technology into their processes? How do they make sure they're actually using it to its full potential? Because I see a lot of people that are sitting there with some great technology but aren't necessarily using are abled or aren't using or aware it can do all of the things it can do. So I think that's an interesting piece as well. Like you say, it's not just about can I use a spreadsheet? Can I use an automation tool? But it's also about how do they have the skills to connect the dots and pick the right tech and put together the technology stack that they've already got in

Clive Webb: 31:56

some ways. And recognizing technology will only ever be the enabler. And there are, as I'm prone to say, there are too many instances of technology implementations looking for the business problem to solve. We've got to start with the business problem and find the technology to help us do it. But if we don't get on that technology and data path, some competitor is going to get on ahead of us and we will lose that stickiness with the customer. And that's what you've got to try and aim for is bringing you and I back to, doing the next order and doing the next order. So that's back to my 100 to 120. Do I understand the driver for that? And can I make the customer sticky to make it 140 next month?

Hannah Munro: 32:47

And absolutely. And people sometimes use tech and, you know, even doing what I do, I speak to a lot of people where they see technology as fixing a problem. And actually the problem is not within the technology, actually within the process and the way that they are trying to fix the problem. Like you say, the business problem they're trying to solve. And it's quite interesting. I'm picking that. And I do think that there's an interesting skill set that's required in finance as much about process as it is about whether it's the technology that's the problem or is it the process and the complexity that you are surrounding that technology with, which is quite interesting.

Clive Webb: 33:30

Which comes back to your understanding of the use of technology against the business model. And do we actually understand the business model and are we trying to create a technology solution when that's not necessarily the most appropriate one? So, you know, it's an interesting journey we've got. And we're not at the point where that journey itself is complete. We're somewhere down the path. There's light at the end of the tunnel, but we're nowhere near the end of the tunnel.

Hannah Munro: 34:02

Yeah. The nice thing is that I think there's a lot more options in there in terms of things coming through. And people are more aware and less... less scared to ask the question, is there something that can automate this? Because you made a really interesting comment, I think, earlier in the podcast about how, and I've noticed a shift in how the conversation a few years back was, well, what is that going to mean for the jobs within our team in terms of automation? And like you say, the shift is now happening is that I need this, I need this finance team to do a different role, which is more insight, more data, more strategic conversations. So I needed to free up this resource rather than it being about cutting roles and cutting jobs.

Clive Webb: 34:47

And to build on what you just said, I think that's entirely right. it's a wonderful time to be in finance because to me, that's the more stimulating part of adding value and making the difference.

Hannah Munro: 35:02

Absolutely. It's a more interesting role in itself, isn't it? I think the roles in finance are so much more exciting than they used to be. And is that something that's coming out in the research? Are you seeing more people looking to come into finances? Are the entry points aware of what's shifting?

Clive Webb: 35:20

That's an interesting conversation. Actually, that's a bit of research that we're currently looking at, is what are the dynamics of some of the attractiveness points. I think the jury's still out on that one, to be honest. Professions themselves, in a broader context, I think we need to understand what the role of professions are. in society. And that I think is a, well, I wouldn't say anymore, but that's an interesting conversation of itself.

Hannah Munro: 35:56

Well, I'm looking forward to hearing about that piece of research because that sounds very exciting. And it's a question I'm trying to remember who I was speaking to. I think it was the chief economist at Deloitte. We were having a conversation about where the next teams of finance are coming through. Because if you've not got necessarily these entry-level operational roles, where... where are the next finance leaders going to come from? So I won't, that's a whole podcast in itself. And I can't wait to see that new piece of research coming through. And then I can pick your brains on it and see what you've found and what you've discovered. So are there any, obviously very aware that, you know, as I suspected when we first met Clive, our conversation is, we're already at our sort of our 35 minute slot. So we're Are there any other, just to go back to sort of what we talked about, you know, for the topic that we're on, trying to keep on track for today. Were there any other insights about the shift in, you know, in finance during the pandemic and what that means in terms of the finance, you know, the finance team role within a business?

Clive Webb: 37:07

I think it comes down to having a clear vision about what the purpose of finance is. And if the organization understands the value that the finance team can add, then the doors open and the possibilities start. And it is how do I have value in those many ways you and I talked about, Hannah. Brilliant.

Hannah Munro: 37:32

No, and there's been quite a few pieces of research we've almost like touched on during today's session. And as for those of you that are listening, I'm sure you'll be excited to hear I've managed to convince or ask very nicely for Clive to come back onto the podcast to talk about the change, what he's researched into the role of the CFO as well. So that is definitely coming up in the future. So for those that are interested in some of the points that we've touched on today and want to look at more and more research around it, what pieces of research that you guys have put together would you recommend they look into and I'll make sure they're in the show notes.

Clive Webb: 38:09

Okay so firstly anybody can access any of the ACCA's research just go to our website accaglobal.com and it's there and it's free. So the principal reports we've touched on seizing the opportunity looks at the role of finance in the pandemic and Beyond Finance Insights Reimagined looks at the role of the business partner and that trusted relationship they talk to. And Finance Functions Journey to the Future looks at the strategic direction of finance as you started the conversation before the pandemic. So if you see those three in total, then you see the chronology of how our thoughts of the future of the finance function grow.

Hannah Munro: 38:56

Brilliant. And for those that are listening, they are some brilliant pieces of research. I think the season, the opportunity one to see what has come out of the pandemic and where that's going is particularly interesting. But I found it fascinating to contrast the finance journey into the future, which was the piece just before the pandemic, I think, in terms of timing and how those two shifts and those viewpoints may have changed given what happened with COVID and also what's going on now as well in terms of the world at large. So thank you so much, Clive, for joining me on today's session. It was a genuine pleasure and lovely to hear, you know, not just obviously the outputs from the research, but almost your musings on what that means for finance and be interesting, genuinely interesting. So thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. And I can't wait to have you back on the show.

Clive Webb: 39:56

No, my pleasure. Thank you. Brilliant.

Hannah Munro: 39:58

And so for those that are listening, as always, we'll pop all the links into the show notes. We have some great guests coming up as well on the podcast. So it was fantastic to have Clive and the ACCA come on and almost give us the analytical and the vision for what's happening in finance. But we've also got some great guests that are actually living that role of finance as well coming up. So I'll be sharing that. So if you want to obviously learn more and follow the podcast don't forget you can go to the website www.itassolutions.co.uk and you will get you can sign up for email alerts do follow us on LinkedIn itassolutions we're sharing both the podcast and the work we're doing in terms of financial transformation live sessions is all about how do we actually actually start that journey how do we give you you know how do we support you guys in terms of those skills to actually start that shift so thank you to thank you again to Clive for coming on the podcast and look forward to speaking to you guys soon.