77. Making the shift from CFO to Board with Fiona Hathorn, CEO of Women on Boards UK

In this episode of CFO 4.0, Hannah sits down with Fiona Hathorn, CEO of Women on Boards UK, to chat about balancing the cultural fit with bringing something different to the Board, and top tips on setting out on your Board journey.

Fiona is the CEO of Women on Boards UK alongside advising a number of different boards and organisations, including Advisory Panel Member for the FRC, Advisory Board Member to Spktral, advisor to Peel Hunt, and Chair of Hanx's Nominations Committee.

This episode also covers:

• What skills & knowledge do you need to be on a Board? And how do you get them?
• How to find and identify Board opportunities? And how to identify if it’s a good opportunity for you
• How to make yourself stand out as a potential Board candidate?
• What does a typical Board recruitment process look like?
• Top tips on interviewing well

Links mentioned in this episode:

Fiona's LinkedIn
Women On Boards UK Website
itas Website

• Explore other CFO 4.0 Podcast episodes here.
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Transcript

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Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition. to win at work, drive your career forwards, and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Monroe, Managing Director of ITAS, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people, and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

Hannah Munro: 0:48

So hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. I'm very excited to announce that today we have with me Fiona Hathorne, who is the CEO of Women on Boards UK, to talk all about that shift from CFO into a board member role. So welcome, Fiona. Fantastic to have you on the show.

Fiona Hathorn: 1:10

I'm delighted to be talking to you. As you know, women on boards believe you're never too young and you're never too old to be in the boardroom because the boardroom matters.

Hannah Munro: 1:20

Oh, that's a brilliant statement. So tell us a little bit about the organisation. How long has it been around? How it start?

Fiona Hathorn: 1:28

It started 10 years ago in 2012. And it was around the time that Lord Davis was tasked by the UK government to look at the lack of women on our FTSE 100 boards, our top UK listed boards. And if I'm honest, I'd never really thought about it. I had no idea that only 10% of the positions held at the board level were held by female executives or non-executive directors, which was funny because I was a fund manager. I was buying and selling shares, but it was just something I hadn't thought about. And I'd been lucky enough to have exposure to a boardroom from a really young age. So I had a sense of what the boardroom meant, which is why as an organisation, we specialise in planting seeds, advertising board roles for free, and really supporting and engaging encouraging people to understand the role of the board so they can work out their own board value add. And that's why we launched in

Hannah Munro: 2:26

Because it can sometimes be shrouded in mystery, can't it? The concept of a board and what it stands for and also how you even approach getting onto the board in the first place. So what are some of the typical journeys that you see about that shift into a role as a board member?

Fiona Hathorn: 2:48

I think the first thing to point out is being on a board is not rocket science. Boards actually only do two things. That's performance, strategy and stargazing. And that's conformance and that's abiding by the law. holding organizations to account, GDPR, filing your accounts, risk registers, that sort of thing. So boards only do two things. The reality is that most people learn on the job. They haven't had training. They don't have a certificate. And historically, those people that got onto large listed boards, and it's not just about listed boards, have been previous chief executives. So they'd had exposure to listed boards as an executive, and they moved on to become a portfolio career. And what the Lord Davis and the government efforts did was to say, actually, if we're going to get the benefits of diversity of thought on boards to strengthen our organisations and ensure they perform better, we have to actually change the recruitment criteria. Because still today, there are hardly any female chief executives. So understanding the role of the board is important. So, you know, understanding the company's actual duties, responsibilities and liabilities, but actually understanding how you personally will contribute in the boardroom. The dynamics of the boardroom and what makes it so difficult is what's really crucial in selling your board value add, which is what we specialise

Hannah Munro: 4:17

Yeah, because it's an interesting piece that you said about how there's no official training that you have to go through to get onto a board. What are typically the routes that people go through in terms of equipping themselves to be on a board? Is there any training available to support people in that shift?

Fiona Hathorn: 4:38

Yes, there's lots of training available now. But the first thing is to say that most boards don't transparently advertise their board vacancies. They rely on their networks, the chairs network, the non-exec networks, the employee networks. Now, those companies that are large and listed or large and competitive, like public appointments, big public appointments, like the environmental agency or large charities and the listed boards, the regulator is insists that they use a headhunter, and if they don't, they should explain why they haven't. So if you use a headhunter, the board is usually doing a skills audit, and but they won't necessarily advertise. So the key for me is transparency. Transparency always makes a difference. Companies talk about we want diversity on boards, but they're still petrified of people they don't know. So there are lots of fantastic certificated courses. The Institute of Directors have one. The FT has one. NEDA, the Non-Executive Directors Association. In fact, I'll just hold up their handbook. I happen to have it here. You can read about being on a board in a book. It's not difficult. And the most important thing you do, which is why we do a much lighter touch webinar and workshop to explain how you add value in the boardroom, is it's a sales campaign. So you can read everything, but do you understand if you go to an interview, or talk to people in the capacity to offer you a board role and you start trotting out Companies Act, they'll look at you and think, great, we've got a company secretary. Thank you very much. We don't need that. They need you to understand it. They also need you to understand the regulator because what the regulator does, whether it's in the pensions regulation or alternative investment regulation, the Quota Companies Alliance, they interpret the law for your sector. So just being aware of these things is really what is crucial. If you have a knowledge gap, you need to make sure if you're joining a board and maybe you know nothing about cyber and tech, and cyber is everywhere, isn't it? And tech is everywhere. Then make sure that's covered in the boardroom by somebody else. And you can upskill your learning. So know what you know and know what you don't know. But the point is you don't have to know everything. Most people learn on the job. So I would recommend certificated courses, but they won't necessarily get you a board role.

Hannah Munro: 7:13

No, absolutely. Because like you said, it sounds like there's kind of two routes in. So firstly, networks and secondly, headhunters. Are there any other routes or any other ways to identify opportunities?

Fiona Hathorn: 7:25

Well, most people get a board role from somebody that they know. So what's crucial is that you tell people I'm interested in the board role, in a board role. And you're very specific in understanding your board value add. It doesn't matter whether you're talking to a chair, a neighbor, a friend, a colleague. They need, if they happen to meet somebody who has a vacancy on their board, they need to explain who you are. Oh, I met so-and-so the other day. And they're really interested in the board and they'd be fantastic on your board. And they're a risk expert exactly as you're looking for. And that's the sort of network and connections. So what's really important is running your own little personal sales campaign. and talking to people about your board roles, but also understanding what exposure you've had to the boardroom in the past. And we call that proxy board experience. It may be somebody would say to you, have you been involved in the board? And you might answer that literally, I've never been a registered director, trustee or governor. But the reality is you've been on committees, you've reported to boards, you've been exposed to the board. You might have extensive board experience or knowledge. So again, it's about how you communicate that. So in our workshop, we do something called an elevator pitch. Tell me who you are, what you understand, exposure to the board and something vaguely interesting and engaging about yourself because fit and engagement also matters.

Hannah Munro: 8:54

You made a really interesting point there about fit. What do you mean by fit?

Fiona Hathorn: 9:00

Well, I hate the word fit, but a fit is always used, particularly with the headhunters. And actually, we've got a webinar we did with a lady called Amanda Alexander on how to build up a relationship with a headhunter. But basically, fit is, it should not be people like me. Because if you only recruit people who are like you, who fit with you, because you happen to like rugby or football or anything else for that matter, I don't mean that. Fit should be a skills audit and fit should, it might be cognitive fit. It might be that you're a data expert or you are particularly good with mentoring executives. So normally you get your specific board skill. So it might be we need a chartered accountant or a management accountant because we need somebody to chair our audit and finance committee. That's one fit. But then it's about your breadth and depth. What else do you bring? So you fit the skills audit. around the table, but what else? And it may be you're a diversity and inclusion leadership engagement expert, which means that you can really help the chief executive with regard to overseeing the management of their executive team. There's lots of other aspects to fit, but what is crucial is that we understand that you know how to behave in the boardroom. The boardroom is about taking collective decisions, Not every decision the board makes with regard to approving a strategy or approving remuneration will be right. But the minute you've made a decision, the whole board needs to buy into that. So behaviour matters. And those people we don't know, we don't know how they're going to behave. Hence, if you have a board interview, understanding, challenging, constructive challenge and communicating effectively how you're going to behave in the boardroom is about how you're behaving right now in the interview. How succinct are you? Do you sound like somebody who's going to read a big board pack and talk constantly about every sentence, dotting every I and cross T? Or are you going to hold your voice back And wait for the point that is most relevant. Do you understand influence? There's so many aspects to what I mean by fit. And I've got some very funny examples about how some of our members have persuaded a board that they will fit into the culture of that organisation that may or may not have needed change.

Hannah Munro: 11:35

Well, now you've whetted our appetite. So please, Fiona, share some of those examples.

Fiona Hathorn: 11:41

Well, for example, I'm lucky enough to meet some amazing individuals. And I met Patti Bellinger in Australia, and she's a black American woman. She was the chief exec of Harvard Business School. She was a senior executive leader at BP. She spoke French fluently, a really accomplished global leader. And she was up for an interview with the board of Sodexo. Now, Sodexo is a listed company that you may not have heard of, but it's servicing. So it could be, I mean, they do all sorts of different services. They've got something like 300,000, 400,000 employees globally. It's a massive company. It's listed in France, but still quite family owned. And Patty joined the board of Stexo. And I said to Patty, go on, Patty, how did you win at the final stage? Because by the time you've got to the interview, the first thing is having, we can talk about board CVs, getting to the interview is one thing. Once you've got there, you're already good enough. So it's now not about your specific skills, it's about your breadth and depth. And I said, Patty, when did you know that you had won? And she said, the night before the final interview. And I said, go on, what happened? And she said, well, we're in a restaurant. Because often at that level, the interview process is six months. And she said, I realized that fit, my personality and my background wouldn't be well understood by some of the shareholders and the stakeholders of the organization. And we were going for dinner with the chairman. And I thought he's likely to have his favorite subject of French wine. She knew quite a lot about wine, so she phoned up the restaurant, got hold of the wine list the night before, studied the wine list. So she made sure she was the only candidate who could talk to the chair about his favourite subject, about the wine list being presented to them to choose a wine with the sommelier in French. And she said she saw all the other candidates know that's it. She's done it. She's over the line. What's not to like with her character, but black American woman, accomplished businesswoman, might she be a little bit, we're not sure how she's going to fit with our culture. She overcame what she realised would be the biggest potential barrier. And that's the extent to which minorities, female minorities, male minorities, have to rise above the bar and really sell themselves. their fit and their value. And we need more people to be accomplished at that because we want more diversity of thought in the boardroom of all levels.

Hannah Munro: 14:13

Yeah, and I think that diversity piece is wider, isn't it, than just colour. It's also about educational diversity, backgrounds. Obviously, sex and gender is a key part of that as well. But is there any stats around diversity and the importance of that to the success of a board?

Fiona Hathorn: 14:33

I mean, it's diversity. I mean, just choosing somebody who's been educated in the same way as you, you can look like a diverse candidate, but you've had all the same background. We know diverse teams perform better because they've seen and heard different things. And therefore, if you're at the board level, it's not just the board, it's the executive teams below. How diverse are they? Because we know, for example, some super research in America looking at banks, And the more racially diverse their executive teams, the more interesting their product development was. And therefore, funnily enough, they were selling banking products that were actually needed by the society around them, as opposed to what a group of individuals with a certain education had thought. So diversity means all sorts. And by seeing and hearing different things, you're listening to different aspects of clients and what they're looking for and what they're needing. It is hugely important in product innovation. We also know from the regulator perspective, you know, Andrew Bailey, who's the current chair of, head of the Bank of England, one of the things he sought is we know the more diverse your teams are, and how you deal with sexual harassment, fraud and investigations. We know the more diverse your team are, the better you will handle that culture matter. So it's a hugely deep, complex subject, but very important for organisations that only have relatively small boards, 10 to 12, to fit all of that skills audit with the diversity audit. And it does make recruiting more challenging. And rightly so.

Hannah Munro: 16:20

Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because on one hand, like we talk about fit and we talk about being able to add value to that board. But at the same time, being different almost adds value. So how do you balance the need to that cultural fit with the fact that you can bring something different to the board?

Unknown: 16:43

Yeah.

Fiona Hathorn: 16:43

Well, here we go again. We can talk about unconscious bias, for example, and you can do as much unconscious bias training as you like. We all have biases. We can talk about the need for diverse teams, but if you recruit a diverse team, or diverse individuals and you don't look after them and you can't manage a diverse team, the actual performance of the team goes backwards. So what do we really need? We need effective leaders who are consciously inclusive and know how to engage and manage a diverse team. Now you take that upper level again and you go into the boardroom and we're talking about the ability of the chair to chair an effective meeting. So that can be all sorts of things. A good chair, according to INSEAD and some research done by INSEAD, speaks for less than 10% of the time. A good chair has a very, very good relationship with the chief executive because if that trust isn't there in terms of reporting into the boardroom, it's me against them. So actually being consciously inclusive and getting the benefits of of a diverse board means simple things like, have you onboarded them? Have you given them enough information to add value in their first few board meetings? Because boards, even at the FTSE level, will only meet once a month, but they don't have all the information they could possibly know about large organisations. Smaller organisations meet four times a year. It takes you about a year to know what the heck's going on. So to what extent is the organization upskilling you and giving you the tools and the information, the offsite visits to start to add value? So if people don't engage consciously in our diverse candidate of any form of diversity, make them feel comfortable in any way. And that can be the pre-meeting. That can even be walking into the board meeting. That can be ridiculous things like you can't sit there because David always sits there or Jenny always sits there. I mean, what the heck? You know, a good chair will make sure it's breaking up little groups that start, you know, little silo groups. So it's incredibly complex to be an inclusive leader and an inclusive board chair.

Hannah Munro: 19:04

It sounds like the chair plays a really important role, particularly in your first board appointment, in terms of getting you into the swing of things and making sure that they're setting you up for success. What are the things that people should look out for when looking for their first board appointment, apart from just wanting any, in terms of finding a good chair to work within, a good board that will set them up for success?

Fiona Hathorn: 19:29

Well, there's several aspects to that. Firstly, being aware of what's out there. Because don't be flattered just because somebody says, would you like to join my board? There's something called due diligence. You know, as a board director, trustee or governor, as a registered director, you are personally liable, potentially, for what goes on in that organisation. Law's not out to get you. Law's out to get you if you're asleep on the job and there's fraud or something going badly wrong. We've all heard of kids company in the UK where things went wrong. So the law's not out to get you, but your due diligence is really, really important. So the first thing is, I mean, we advertise board vacancies for free. We've got about 300 on our website. We've got 50 news. Have a look at the whole landscape because once you've joined a board, normally you're on the board for at least three years. probably six, maximum nine. So make sure you like the organisation. Do you like what it stands for, its purpose? Because if you don't, you are not going to be an effective board director. So once you like the organisation, do you like the executive team and the culture that's happening within? Are you a change agent? If you're a change agent, that possibly doesn't matter if you're brought on to help change this company and make it more robust. So it's not all about a perfect team. But do you like the chair? So when you're at the interview, the minute you're aware of this, you realise it's a two-way interview. You're in an overseeing role. Your nose is in, fingers out, unless something gets wrong. The helicopter on the board should not have landed. If it's landed, it means the board is in charge because something is going materially wrong. So all of that due diligence you can do, you can go onto Google, you can ask to meet the other directors online. Speak to the chief executive. If they say to you, no, I'm sorry, you can't speak to the executive team, that is giving you a message already. Because why would you lend your time for free or not paid enough because you never are? relative to the executives. Why would you do that if they're not engaging you? So one of the things that we do is not only do we give one-on-one support at the point people have interviews to make sure they really understand how to sell their board value add, but we will also talk to them once they've been offered the job and say, are you sure? Don't be flattered. There's lots of board positions out there. You're a talented individual. Make sure you choose the right board.

Hannah Munro: 22:00

Yeah, I think that's super important, isn't it? Because like you say, it can be flattering, but it is a big commitment. And certainly for a couple of years, for you to invest your time and your efforts, if it's not the right fit, that's incredibly important.

Fiona Hathorn: 22:15

Yeah, and one thing I would say is there are a lot of career benefits to being on a board. So a lot of people worry about their duties, responsibilities and liabilities. And all I say is that actually, as an executive, you have a lot of responsibilities and liabilities already. This is about understanding why you're doing it. It can develop your career and leadership skills. It's a point of difference on your CV. It helps you build new connections. It strengthens our community. So don't let the people who don't understand the responsibilities go on those boards. We need everyone to get involved. And the younger you start, the better. because there's a board rollout there for everyone. Even when you're at university in your 20s, you can go on the sports club board, the hockey club board, the debating society committee. All of this will strengthen you and make sure you understand the role of the board in your current organisation. I mean, big organisations like JP Morgan, who we work with, they have 33, if not more, subsidiary boards in the UK or Europe alone. What committees report into them? What do they do? Who's on them and why? And don't tell me you're ambitious if you say, I don't know. Because if you don't know, your head's down, hoping to get noticed by doing a good job. Well, good luck with that project.

Hannah Munro: 23:36

Yeah, it takes a lot of effort to build brand. And I think sometimes people underestimate the value of a strong personal brand. And have you seen any success stories with those that you could share with us about things that people did to really help themselves stand out?

Fiona Hathorn: 23:53

Well, I mean, a super success story is Karen Finlayson. So she's a partner in Leeds. For PWC, so she's an accountant. She didn't go to university and she decided to get onto the board of Doncaster College at a point in time. And we've got a podcast of her talking about this when it was going through a bit of financial difficulties. Lots of organisations get themselves into difficulties. Now, it was possible that some of the partners around her were telling her, you know, this potential conflict of interest. So she managed that conflict of interest. So we don't audit it currently. And this is an extremely important community college that I went to as a non-graduate that came into PwC. And it's now time for me to step up. Now, as a result of her experience of being on that board, she really understood her value as a leader, which made her a better partner at PwC. And she has been on NHS boards since then. Again, no conflict of interest, carefully managed. She's on the board of Sheffield Hallam University. And it is no surprise to me that five to six years after meeting her, she's now on the main supervisory board of PwC in the UK. overseeing the main management team because she's different. So it basically transformed her brand, not only within the community, but within the whole of PwC. And that is the sort of thing you can do. But you do have to say, what am I doing? Where am I going? And what do I need to do to get there? So I wouldn't say one has always got the final plan, but this is not a once and done thing. It should be done constantly. And being aware of your options and who you are as an individual, I think Karen is a fantastic, what I would describe as a beacon of light. She is a minority and nobody can say she's ticking a box because she's marvellous. And of course, minorities, men or women, have to usually be better than to sell their board value add, which means really understanding how to influence people and the vulnerability of some people who are interviewing you on the boards themselves.

Hannah Munro: 26:09

That's really interesting. So what do you mean by vulnerability of those that are interviewing for boards as well? Talk to me about what that statement meant.

Fiona Hathorn: 26:19

Well, we've talked about fit, haven't we? And so one of the things that we suggest that people do is understand do a little personality profile of themselves because I may not put on my CV my personality. I might not be asked, but when I'm being interviewed, they're trying to work it out. So for example, I did something recently called How to Fascinate. And it gives you three words to describe you. And it says, Fiona is powerful. She's a natural innovator who's not mysterious. Now, I would not put that on my CV, but if somebody put me under pressure, I now understand what they mean. I'm a change agent. I'm an innovator. I love startups. If I join a company or an organization, a big school, whatever, that's an established organization that doesn't want fresh ideas for stale companies, then I'm probably the wrong fit right now. Now, even if the chair says, Or the chief exec won't change. If the rest of the board aren't ready for it, I am going to get frustrated. So fit is both ways. So understanding your personality and choosing the right board where you can have maximum impact without doing everyone's heads in. is important. So I understand my personality and I can communicate it succinctly, which is why when we run events, we actually get people, we put people in breakout rooms and we give them feedback and say, really interesting, you're global head of swaps. No idea what that means. You're managing director of a big canary wolf company. So I don't want to disappoint you, but there are thousands of you. What do you understand? What can I grab onto to That means that you can add value on my academy trust board or on my NHS board. Because funny enough, we're not involved in global swaps. So people hide behind their title and who they are. And this is a very, very different type of fit and connection. And your personality does matter. And that's why the earlier you, I mean, I meet too many executives, particularly who are accountants. who are retiring from any of the accountancy firms, the big four or any smaller organisation. And they imagine they're going to walk onto a board really easily. Whereas actually the ones who walk onto the board really easy are Karen Finneson because she's been on boards in her 40s. She understands the boardroom. And I know she understands the boardroom because I can see the board she's been on. The way she interviews will be completely different Now she's been on boards than some retiring partner who's a newbie. So, you know, lots of accountants say to me, it's not fair. I can't get onto a board because they've already got an accountant. Well, that's as maybe. We usually want one. who's independent, possibly to chair the Audit and Finance Committee. But actually, the lawyer will say the same thing. I can't get on board because they don't want a lawyer. The HR person says, I can't get on board because they don't want HR. It's not a skill. Not true. There's loads of lawyers in the boardroom. There's loads of HR skills in the boardroom. But they're selling their knowledge and understanding of the boardroom, their breadth, their network, and all the other things they can add. And so it's the language and how you behave. because there's lots of board positions out there. And most people look at our vacancy board and say, well, they want an accountant. They want a lawyer. I'm not one of those. You know, I'm PR and marketing. And I just said, remember, most people get a board position from somebody they know. Most boards aren't transparently advertising. Who are you talking to? How are you talking to them? And what are you really interested in? Because you can broker yourself onto a board, assuming you get that valuable position correct. And don't sound like a complete nightmare, but we've talked about due diligence as well.

Hannah Munro: 30:19

Yeah, no, that's, that's brilliant. So I think one of the things we haven't yet discussed is what does a typical board recruitment process look like? What are the stages and steps? I think you said earlier on in the podcast, certainly some of them can take up to six months just to find the right board member. So what does a typical

Fiona Hathorn: 30:35

recruitment process look like? It depends enormously. I mean, it really, really depends enormously. What I think is really worrying is lots of organisations spend more money and time recruiting graduate trainees. And the whole interview due diligence process, they do some board directors. And yes, it's easier to get rid of a graduate than it is a board director. But it depends. Some organisations are still using their networks. The interview is very, very quick. Oh, come along for an interview. It's usually quite informal. Why don't you come and meet our chair? You have a little chat with the chair. The chair thinks, yeah, yeah, that's a good idea. I'll introduce you to the rest of the board. So it could be as simple as that. As to how, if it's a public appointment, so the environmental agency, HMRC, the cabinet office, there's thousands of government departments and UK Sport, Sport England, report in via a government department. Those boards will transparently advertise. So there'll be an advert up there for three or four months, public appointments website. Then they'll have a whole process of due diligence, asking those questions. So you're probably going to, the interview is probably three months away. And then they have to get ministerial approval for some of those appointments. If the minister changes, I know one large organisation which took them two years. I mean, they're literally pulling their hair out in terms of the stress. So it's enormously dependent. A good board, so FTSE 350, ought to have a nominations committee. They ought to be actively engaging and interviewing people all of the time. So they have a Rolodex of options, either from chief exec recruitment, i.e. what would happen if anybody went under a bus? Who are the internal candidates? Have we got good engagements with headhunters? Are we constantly interviewing candidates to get a sense of what's out there? It depends. How long is a piece of string? It's really difficult. It's the same with pay and everything else. Depends.

Hannah Munro: 32:43

Wow, that is, it is fascinating to hear the difference in terms.

Fiona Hathorn: 32:49

And the other thing that we do is we give telephone hugs because most of the people we meet, particularly accountants actually, have often stayed with the same company. I mean, nowadays you see people move in one accountancy firms to another in-house, out-house. Historically, some of the retiring partners that we meet today, they've been in the same company, they're career lifos. So they have not been used to rejection. They have never actually had to sell themselves because the brand of their accountancy firm, actually the smaller firms, they have had to sell themselves. So this is about selling you. So that's why you can go on as many courses. And they are great because they'll take you through all the regulation, everything you need to know. But that's actually the crucial thing is how succinct you are, because that's A headhunter, and there's lots of headhunters in this space, so how many are you going to meet? How many are you going to have a coffee with? Will they even have a coffee with you? I don't know. It depends whether you are an obvious candidate to them. They want to put you into box. They first need to know, are you a performance net or you're a conformance net? And if you're a conformance net, I want to know, are you a chartered accountant? We've got complex IP laws, so we want an IP... regulatory persons? Are you in operations? Are you GDPR? Are you cyber? They want to put you in a box. And if your performance is a different type of box. So when you are meeting with the people in a capacity to put you on a long list or put you in the interview process, they need to be able to say, oh, I met so-and-so the other day. They will be good because. And the shorter and the succinct and focused you are, the better. And that's quite difficult for some people to do. And that's what's crucial. But it is selling you. That's hard. And everyone struggles. It's usually by the time you've got to the interview, it's not personal. I went for a really large organisation board position about a year ago and I thought I was a shoo-in. Proper headhunter was involved, but I knew the chief exec had worked with him many, many years ago. So I knew he understood me. So I thought my sales thing is going to be less here. I didn't get the role. And he called me up and he said, Fiona, you didn't get the role. I can't tell you why. But when you find out who got it, you will know. Now, she was Japanese. And it was a Japanese-related company. And they didn't have anybody who was Japanese on the board. And there were other things about her as well. But we were so different as characters. We were both good enough. But there was just something in her breadth and depth that she had that I couldn't compete with. And she's a terrific individual. So it isn't personal, but you have to be tenacious and you have to keep going. And that's really why our organization exists to plant bold seeds. We work with lots of corporates. career and leadership development. We always talk about the boardroom. And then people who know they want a board, they have to have an exposure to what's out there. And then we do CV courses as well. Because writing, we've got a top tip for a CV. And we've got the CV cloud course, which is take a piece of paper with your current CV on, shred it, and don't look at it. Because if you do, you'll copy it. This is not about your executive. And we also have something called the So What. What are you most proud of? Make a list. We'll then work out, is that relevant in the boardroom? Yes or no. And then write it up in three points. What you did, what was the business benefit and what was the outcome? That's the so what. If you can't answer those three questions, then why are you writing it on a CV? Because I've got to understand, so what? What does it mean to the organisation? What was the business benefit? And if I get a sense of all these things you're proud of, and I can read maybe 10 things, I can get a sense of what you could oversee and how you could strengthen our organisation. And it might be environmentally, it could be anything. And that might be you're a finance director who happens to have been involved in an environmental initiative in your local community. Nothing to do with your executive side. That might be the one thing that gets you the role than somebody else. Who knows? So what you're proud of, make a list, and then you have a suite of things to go in and out.

Hannah Munro: 37:22

That's really interesting, isn't it? Because what you're saying is there's a certain level of skill that you need to pass, but actually it's those unique things that make you stand out as an individual that are going to get you actually onto the board. Like the whole Japanese piece, you know, that's not something that you would think that, you know, you would have to have. But again, it was just about that particular situation and that particular board. And just out of interest, like how many applications... do people need to go through to get onto their first board? Is it hundreds? You know, should people, is there any benchmarks around, you know, sort of how long it

Fiona Hathorn: 37:59

takes? Again, it really depends. Rarely do people get success straight away, but of course it can happen. And that's why I talk about it being a campaign. But if I give you, talk about it from another way, the average public appointment is, for something pretty well known, like, I don't know, the Consumer Council for Water Regulation, might get 300 to 400 applications. And they'll interview maybe eight of them. So your CV has not only got to follow the brief because it's a public appointment, the best skills audit. It's got to have a really simple covering letter saying with regard to the brief, I believe I fit it in the following three ways, 0.1 to 0.2, 0.3. So you've got to be clear. I'm going to give you another example, Nick Pink. And I'm going to say Nick Pink because we're called Women on Boards and people think we don't help. men, but Nick Pink was at UBS and we told him he needed to run around campaign. And he said, I'm going to find it difficult to get on a board because I'm competing against women and everyone, women, I mean, women will complain for a different reason. Everyone complains because it's competitive. Rightly so. So he created a spreadsheet when we explained to him, he's actually going to have to sell himself. And he made a list of about 170 people. And he worked out how many coffers or emails he would have to do, telephone chats, just to let his network know that he was looking for a board role. And he religiously did this as a campaign. And it's no surprise that today he's an accomplished portfolio non-executive director. So there's several ways to look at the question. It's competitive and it should be. But equally, your local theatre, you can just call the chief exec up and say, love what you do. In fact, I met somebody recently at KPMG. Love what you do. And I used to run my local acting society at university. I love what you do. Are you looking for somebody with my skill set on the board? The chief exec in the chair had a coffee with that person three or four days later. And three months later, he was asked to join the board. Can be as fast as that. Who knows? Wow. But you have to want it. You have to want to do it.

Hannah Munro: 40:20

I think that's a, you know, and I think it's a really, in having you on here is, you know, I think it's very much open, certainly my eyes, let alone our listeners' eyes, to the effort that goes into find not only putting yourself forwards for the board position, but finding the right one for you as an individual as well. And it's great to, you know, hear your comments up about it being both sides. So I literally probably could pick your brains for hours and I promise I won't. But one last thought for our audience is very much, can you give us some top tips for setting out on your board journey if you had to give people three things that they need to do to start um and you know to find the right role for you what would that be

Fiona Hathorn: 41:02

well the first thing is is um understand the role of the board um you know you're you and who the stakeholders are um and understand you know company law or charity law it's not difficult to You can read it in a book. So understand your duties, responsibilities and liabilities is the first thing. The second thing is open your eyes. And even walking down the street, what's the board of that? What's the board of that? It just... think in a different way and then consider your board sales campaign, which was, you know, I've talked about the CV, it's who you connect with and how. So those would be the three things to do. And just know that organisations like myself, Women on Boards UK, register as a free member, hover around and then get engaged and come to our workshop. But there's lots of organisations out there, but it's, There's help out there for you and we're very happy to help everyone. And my final point was, and I've said my three things, is tell your daughters, tell your sons, tell everyone about the boardroom because it matters. And the younger you engage them, the better. And that's why I talked about those university boards. I first went into the boardroom at the age of four because my father hadn't got any childcare. I didn't know what I was learning, but I was sucking it up somehow.

Hannah Munro: 42:22

Hey, that is a very early age to start on boards. Well, thank you so much, Fiona. And just if people want to learn more about women on boards and more about how they can get support and help, where's the best place to find yourself in the organization?

Fiona Hathorn: 42:40

Well, womenonboards.net. We've got a sister organisation in Australia and then choose the UK site and we will then engage you once you've joined. But that's the best way to get involved. And we work with lots of big corporates like PwC, JP Morgan, BlackRock, Exprime. talking to them about the boardroom. So, you know, that's why we don't worry for the men. Please don't worry about our brand name being women. There's a particular issue with women in the boardroom. So we particularly want to have a brand name that supports them. But we have lots of other relationships with NEDA, the IOD, FT, all of them. It matters. And we connect with everyone.

Hannah Munro: 43:19

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Fiona. That has been a fantastic session. And for those that are interested, I will put the link into the show notes, along with all the references that Fiona has made, because this has been a fantastic session. And I'd love your feedback for all of our listeners out there. You know, I'd love to hear what else you want to learn about. Is the topic of getting on to board something you want to explore more? I'd love to do a follow up on this one as well. So thank you very much, Fiona. Thank you, everyone. for listening and we'll see you on the next episode.