251. CFO 4.0 Revisited: What are Boards looking for in a CFO? with Patrick Dunne

In the second instalment of our CFO 4.0 Revisited series, we return to a conversation that first aired as the twentieth episode of the podcast. Hannah Munro sits down with Patrick Dunne, now an experienced chair and influential voice across business and social enterprise, to explore what boards truly expect from a modern CFO.

This episode offers a clear, direct view of boardroom dynamics and the realities of senior leadership. Patrick sets out what a strong board and CFO relationship looks like, the qualities that boards value most, and where new finance leaders often fall short. He also tackles the balance of the CEO and CFO partnership, how trust is built or lost, and whether a strained relationship can ever be repaired.

Key themes include

• The hallmarks of an effective board and CFO relationship
 • What boards genuinely want from their CFO
 • How to make a strong start with your board
 • The role and boundaries of the CEO and CFO partnership
 • Whether damaged senior relationships can be rebuilt
 • Practical guidance for new CFOs looking to set the right tone

Links mentioned

• Contact Patrick on LinkedIn 

• Explore other CFO 4.0 Podcast episodes here.
• Subscribe to our Podcast!

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Patrick Dunn And Boards
• 2:55 Why Good Boards Matter In Crises
• 4:00 Purpose People Process Triangle
• 6:30 The CFO At The Board–Exec Intersection
• 8:45 What Chairs Seek In A CFO
• 11:20 Relevance Beyond Sector Experience
• 13:05 CEO–CFO Trust And Partnership
• 16:20 Spotting And Fixing Broken Dynamics
• 19:20 Self Awareness Feedback And FIDO
• 22:00 Onboarding And Educating The Board Financially
• 24:30 Building Influence Not Just Position
• 27:00 Final Lessons: Read The Thought Bubbles
• 29:40 Sponsor Message And Client Testimonial

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Welcome to CFO for future of finance. The CFO Rose strategic. Moving from Costco to Strategic Directory. And with epithets, kind of opportunities, we are here to help you take advantage of this transit to private career forward and with confidence. Join Hanelon Rose, Managing Director of ITAS, a financial transformation consultancy, and she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people, and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

SPEAKER_05: 0:48

So hello and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. My name is Hannah Monroe, and I am your host today. With me today, I have Patrick Dunn. So Patrick is an experienced Toron board member in both business and social enterprise. He's also the author of award-winning book boards. So thank you, Patrick. It's great to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08

Great pleasure to be here. I've always valued CFOs. So uh nice to be able to chat to them.

SPEAKER_05: 1:13

Absolutely. And uh you've done quite a lot in your your your years, um, uh, you know, your last few years. And particularly from what I understand, you're you're also um a part of the FT Advisory Board as well for boards, is that right?

SPEAKER_01: 1:27

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:28

Brilliant. So tell us a little bit about your journey and how you ended up writing your your book, Boards.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33

Yeah, so uh by background, I'm from Liverpool, mathematician, uh, and spent the bulk of my executive career in chemicals and private equity. And in private equity, you get to work with a lot of boards. And early on in my career, I I sort of worked out that the better the boards, the more money you make, and the less hassle you'd have. Uh, and so I put a lot of thought into well, what does make a good board? And um came up with a model for that and um started to sort of write on a little bit about that. But it was really a really bad board meeting that I went to one day that got me got me properly writing because I thought, God, I've got to buy this chair a book to do it better, it'll save me a lot of time. And I I went into a bookshop, tried to buy, uh I I asked the guy, you know, have you got anything on running board meetings, and he didn't and looked on his computer and couldn't find it. So I thought, well, maybe I'll write something. That was way back in 1997, and I wrote a few books around then and then had a break, you know, being very busy, um, ended up on the operating committee of 3I and the social enterprises and so on. But but uh just over a year ago, the the FT, who I would do a lot with, uh in terms of the board director programs, um, asked me, you know, would I be interested in doing a sort of new book because um they they felt there was demand. And I I thought, well, what am I going to call it? Um and I thought, well, it's gonna be about boards. And just as I I didn't find a book many years ago on running board meetings, I couldn't see that anyone had got the title boards. So I I I because I'm mildyslexic, I like short words. Uh and so I I thought, well, boards, that's a good title, isn't it? So um that that that was it. And it came out about a year ago, just in time for the crisis, uh, which wasn't the necessarily the best of times, but um uh yeah, and it's been really interesting to see the response to it.

SPEAKER_05: 3:27

And I and I can imagine that actually during coronavirus, the the importance of having a good board is you know becomes even more prominent. And and and so what does a good board and CFO relationship actually look like?

SPEAKER_01: 3:41

Yeah, well, I mean, my my starting point is triangles, because I love triangles. And uh when I was trying to figure out what does make a good board, uh I had this triangle in mind of purpose, people, and process. Because if you if you're really clear about what you're doing and everyone's aligned behind that, and you've got the right people working together in the right way, and you've got a good process, then it's gonna be uh a pretty good board. And I also love Venn diagrams. I mean, John Venn was an amazing guy, sort of apart from being a brilliant mathematician, is a philosopher, social entrepreneur, amazing guy. And I and I think of his Venn diagram in the context of one circle being the board, the other being the management. And the the secret source, if you like, is in the middle, in that intersection, and that's where the board and the exec come together. And the CFO is really central to making that work. I mean, they're a big connection for the board and uh and and and and the executive.

SPEAKER_05: 4:41

And so what um what are boards looking for in that CFO? So you said that they're really important. You know, what is the role of a CFO when they're working well?

SPEAKER_01: 4:52

Yeah, so uh ages ago, one of the other bits of research I did was, you know, what what's the difference between really good CFOs and those that aren't? And came up with um, again, a sort of triangle, I'm afraid, uh, a sort of Maslow's Maslow's hierarchy of needs type approach, saying, well, you know, what do you absolutely have to have? What's really good to have, and what's sort of in the nice to have category? And uh at the base, I think, is integrity. If you're a director, you have to trust what the FDCFO is telling you. You know, that's sort of fundamental. The next thing is they have to have relevant, and relevance is a really important word, technical competence for that organization, because there are many different types of organizations, and I think you know, it's hard to find a universally great CFO for every sort of situation. So you have to find, you know, have they got the right technical skills for that? Big difference between a public company and a private company and so on. They have to have management skills, you know, if only to manage themselves. Uh, but you know, they're going to manage a finance function, they have to understand what it's like being a leader, being a manager, because they're relating with the other C people in the C-suite. They have to have, I think, um, to be a partner with the CEO and the board, they have to have a good understanding of strategy. So I'm not saying they need to be a strategic genius, um, but they need to understand, you know, the language of strategy, the basic approaches to that, what other people are doing, to be able to take part in strategic discussions and almost avoid being cast as just the numbers person. Uh, so I think that's important. The next thing they need, I think, is sales skills. And that might sound odd in a CFO, but in my book, being able to clearly convince other people of the need for good financial control, forecasting, sensible budgeting, to be able to communicate with investors, you know, whether they be debt investors or equity investors, uh, or or all of that, to be able to communicate with the board and influence the board, you you you need that. Then you may or may not want them to have some characteristics of or potential to be a CEO. Um, you know, that might be something that you you you might want. Uh and they have to have board skills. If you're going to put them on the board, um, you know, they they need to have board skills. So I think it it's actually quite a you know, that's a lot uh to expect in in someone. Um but I think you know, if you're thinking of a chair's dream CFO, there's the things I'd sort of look for. And when I'm interviewing uh CFOs, you know, uh I I look for those things amongst some other things.

SPEAKER_05: 7:42

And it was a really interesting point you made about relevance. So when you say relevance, are you talking about industry experience? Is that what you're looking for? Or is it wider than that?

SPEAKER_01: 7:52

I I think it's it's wider than that. So so that could be experience of a different type of ownership structure. So, you know, very different CFO needs in a family firm to a private equity back firm, to a public company, to a startup. Very different um CFO needs in a big international uh business with subsidiaries all over the world to you know a local uh a local domestic business, very different um uh experiences uh needed for you know a capital goods business versus a high volume service business. So there are many, it's a bit like a Rubik's Cube, really. There's sort of many dimensions, but you kind of need that that cocktail of things. Um and it could be, you know, experience of being in um financially stretched situations as opposed to you know having loads of cash in the bank. Um you know, so it's it's these different things.

SPEAKER_05: 8:50

So I think what you're saying there is relevance is made up of a mixture of so type of boards, because I can only imagine that the uh the skills needed for a family-owned board versus maybe a startup. Like you said, they're they're very different. So it's it's it's more about the situation that the company's in as well as the business model that they're working to.

SPEAKER_01: 9:11

Yeah, and situational experience often trumps sectoral experience when it comes to it.

SPEAKER_05: 9:17

Yeah. Yeah, and I and I I was gonna say there's gonna be a few um CEOs who'll have coronavirus survival on their uh on their resume.

SPEAKER_01: 9:25

Oh, you better and and that, I mean, mentioning CEO, you know, that relationship between the CEO and the CFO is really critical.

SPEAKER_05: 9:35

And what what makes a good relationship? So, you know, what what do you see as the signs of a successful CEO and CFO relationship?

SPEAKER_01: 9:43

I think um trust and respect are probably the underpinning things. So that they trust each other, that they respect each other. So you look at some of you know, I I think I I've sort of witnessed some fantastic CEO CFO partnerships, and I'll I use that word partnerships. So the CFO isn't subservient to the CEO. Um, you know, that that they they together they run the company, they have complementary, different, different skills and they respect the difference. When I'm coaching CEOs, uh, you know, I I I worry when they kind of uh are see the CFO as a servant kind of uh to them. Uh and I encourage them all to sort of, you know, the things that might irritate you about them actually are brilliant because they're the things you haven't got uh but you need. Uh so you know, and and actually, you know, sometimes the CFO, the CEO has got things that they haven't got and they might be irritating. But if they can find a way to respect their differences and draw on those strengths and cover for each other's weaknesses, then that's that that's a great thing.

SPEAKER_05: 10:54

So it's about the balance in terms of both skills and both sounds of it, sort of um uh mindset in some ways as well, probably having that person that you know being the opposite in that conversation before you even get in front of the board is is that what you're saying is really important?

SPEAKER_01: 11:10

Yeah, you know, all of that, you know, critical friend, uh providing an analysis that the CEO, you know, may not have had time to do, you know, being able to really get people to understand consequences. I think CFOs, in my experience of, are often very good at helping not just the CEO but the board really understand the consequences, usually financial, but not only, uh, of you know, if we do this, this is actually how this is going to play out. Uh and in public companies, that's that's incredibly critical.

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SPEAKER_05: 12:37

And and what are the signs that a rel that relationship isn't working well? Are there any sort of common signs where you go into and you see it and you go, yes, this needs to be addressed?

SPEAKER_01: 12:48

Yeah, it's a bit like um, I use another sort of Venn analogy, really. So if you can imagine the two circles in a Venn diagram with no can no intersection. So they're living in a slightly parallel universe, they're not really talking to each other, uh, they're talking to different groups of people. There isn't a sort of joined upness. That's a real sign. If you can imagine that the other end of that spectrum of sort of intersections is two nearly overlapping circles, they're trying to do each other's jobs. So the CEO isn't happy with the CFO, and and particularly if they've been a CFO themselves before, they will tend to sort of slip down the slippery slope of doing the other person's job. And if the CFO feels the CEO is not being a good CEO and not doing that, they'll do the same, they'll expand the envelope of their CFO dum uh into it into that. And then there's just good old human chemistry. So, you know, one of the things I think that CFOs have to be really good at is managing conflict, um, you know, knowing when to compete, when to avoid, when to collaborate, when to compromise, uh, when to accommodate. That's all about judgment. Um, and you know, it's a very tough job being a CEO. Um, and you know, if you can be that critical friend, but also that fantastic supporter when they need a bit of a lift. Uh, because you know, they can't share their highest hopes uh and worst fears with too many people, CEOs. Um, but they should be able to share them at the CFO.

SPEAKER_05: 14:27

No, absolutely love that. And I have to say, as a fellow mathematician, I'm loving all of the references to Venn diagrams and triangles.

SPEAKER_01: 14:35

Oh, wait till they get to catastrophe theory.

SPEAKER_05: 14:39

Brilliant. Oh, sorry, geeking out over mathematics, that's uh we'll move swiftly on. So, um, so in the in terms of a poor, poor relationship between the CFO and this and the CEO or the board, um, is it something that can be repaired, or do you sort of have to make a decision either to shift away or to you know to to make that change?

SPEAKER_01: 15:02

I think it absolutely can be repaired. Um, but sometimes it's a bit like a bit of elastic. Yeah, you can stretch it and stretch it and stretch it, but if it's broken, I don't know if you've ever tried Hannah to put a piece of elastic back together again. It's actually quite tricky. Um and at the core of this, I think, is is trust and respect. So if you know, if a relationship is struggling, I think, you know, trying to get you know e each side of that, and this is a very important role for a chair to play, if the if if the chair spots, and you know, in in terms of what chairs need to be good at, they need really good antennae. And if you can, you know, if you can actually help this along before it it escalates, then you're you're going to be much better. But with most situations like this, I mean there's a sort of acronym that um leap confronting conflict, one of the uh charities I helped to build, which helps young people manage conflict more effectively. We have an acronym called FIDO, and it stands for Facts, Interpretation, Decision, Outcome. So I think the judgment you have to make furly on is is this actually repairable? Uh if it is, then the outcome we want actually is to get them focused again. And one of the ways to do that is, you know, what can you get them aligned on? So I remember one situation where you know CEO and CFO were you know nearly at fisticuffs, um, and and the CO is a woman, uh and uh the CFO is a man. And uh I I the only thing I could get them to align on was let's not go bust. Uh and then we built up from there. So so because I said, you know, if this goes bust, both of you, you know, are going to be it's gonna be very difficult for you. People will lose their jobs, you have a responsibility. So we either have to sort this out or one of you's got to go. Uh and I haven't decided who that should be yet, but uh we need to find a way to work this out. Uh so let's just focus all of our efforts on you know saving the company, restoring it, and then can we sort out your personal differences after that? Uh and and and it worked. Um and they found a way to work together until until the exit, I think it was three years later or something. So um so you you can do it. But it but it requires a lot of time um and and clear sort of rules of the game. Um so you know, CEO, you will not belittle the CFO in board meetings. CFO, you know, you weren't embarrassed as CEO with some new information that you've kept to yourself beforehand, you know. So just basics, really. And and respect is really important.

SPEAKER_05: 17:53

And if you're a CFO and you you can see some of these signs of concern, you feel like you know, you know you're perhaps shifting into a role that shouldn't, you know, sh you shouldn't be except because you can see the gaps. How would you how would you suggest that they actually approach it? Would you suggest a conversation with the chair? Is it a conversation with the C how how do you actually address that, assuming you think it can be repaired, of course?

SPEAKER_01: 18:16

Yeah, so the first thing is is about self-awareness. So there's some research from Harvard which shows that, like dear Dolphin Ruben, I think, which shows that people who are highly self-aware, groups of people who are highly self-aware, on average perform twice as effectively in terms of making decisions, managing conflicts, coordinating, things like that. That's the good news is though, oh, so let's just get self-aware. The bad news is that there's other research that shows that uh people uh in business or elsewhere are not very good at being self-aware. So the uh you know, so the the the correlation between your own view of what you're good at and what impact you're having on others versus the reality uh tends to be only about you know less than a third. So we're we're really not good at this. So we need help, we need feedback. And so getting an interlocutor is is quite helpful. So the first thing a CFO needs to do is actually is think about what is really going on here. And let's sort of do your double entry bookkeeping, if you like. On one side is, you know, what am I doing that's helpful and what am I doing that's unhelpful to this situation? And what's the CEO doing that's helpful and unhelpful? And what actually are the things that we don't respect each other on? What are the things we actually don't agree on? Uh, what are the things we actually align on? What are the things we actually like about that other person? Because often it's a situation of, you know, like lots of relationships where, you know, I love you madly, but you drive me nuts. Uh and it's kind of, you know, you just need to figure out what drives them nuts and stop doing it. Uh and and everything will be all right, you know, not putting filling dishwasher up properly or not, you know, uh leaving stuff around the house in a bad way or whatever, you know, it's that's it can be that trivial. Um and then talk about it. So you're making a judgment as well as, you know, so if you you and I, Hannah, which which is probably unlikely, but if we if we had a sort of you know attention like that, I think you know, there's points for the first person to say, I'm not uh we don't seem to be working as well as we were, you know, what do you think why do you think that is? What is it that I'm doing that's really getting up your nose? You know, I think have a proper conversation. If the CEO is closed, then you may need to seek the counsel of uh a non-exec uh or the chair or a a peer or a mentor uh and say, look, I I something not quite right here. I think I understand what it is, but I'm not quite sure how to move it on. Or I'm not sure what it is. Have you got any thoughts? And and then move it on that way. But recognition is the first, like most things, you know, um, gotta realize you've got a problem before you can solve it.

SPEAKER_05: 21:14

Absolutely. And I I think there's a few people listening to this, one you know, gonna start writing lists about their marriage and the pros and cons and things they'd fight each other nuts with. So same principles, I guess it is a marriage though, in some ways, isn't it? When you think about that relationship between a a CEO, CEO and a CFO, it's it's that it's that you know, you have to coexist peacefully and get all the children to do what they're supposed to do in the way that they're supposed to.

SPEAKER_01: 21:40

Yeah, and there's a bit, I mean, if you can forgive me for another little bit of maths, but if you think of a normal distribution, a bell curve, and you think of effectiveness and you think of pressure, you know, one of the things you have to do in most kind of relationships, um, and the board has to do this with the exec as a whole, is you know, how do you keep yourself in the middle where your effectiveness is high and the pressures, you know, it's pacyed as good momentum, but it's you're not a headless chicken and you're not asleep. Um and most CEOs operate at just to the, you know, the good ones operate just to the right of that peak. You know, they're always trying to do more than is possible, um, but not too much. Um, and and part of the role of CFO actually is is helping them, you know, by relieving pressure, uh, you know, taking a lot of hassle away from them, making sure things are in order, that what the CEO is telling the board about the numbers in the business are accurate and you know, he's not over egging it and all of that.

SPEAKER_05: 22:41

Um Yeah, so the set they're the um the sense check, I think, is the way I sometimes think about it. Yeah. Yeah, not not just the numbers person, but the san you I think you mentioned the term sanity check. So before they they they get too far ahead of themselves. So that's a great, that's a great way to think about it. Um and in terms of um say, you know, what about a new CFO coming into a role? What is the four, you know, is there anything that you're looking so say you know that you might be taking on um a CFO that perhaps hasn't got the experience? What are you looking for there? You know, what are the sorts of things that would say actually that person's ready to step up into that CFO role?

SPEAKER_01: 23:24

So I think, I mean, they have those three fundamental characteristics that you want in people in the executive team and you know, it goes for board members as well. So you're looking for have they got really good judgment? Have they got the interpersonal skills to go with that judgment so that they can bring those judgments to bear? So will they have influence with the CEO? Will they have influence with the other executive directors? Will they have influence with the board, stakeholders, and so on? Um and have they got really good antennae? I talked about the chair's antennae before, but the best CFOs I know are really good at understanding the business. They absolutely get the financial dynamic of the business. So one of the tests I have in sort of interviews is, you know, uh, can you can you just talk me through the financial dynamics of the business? And really good CFOs don't need any spreadsheets. They just can tell you, you know, this is the dynamic of our income and costs, this is the dynamic of our balance sheet, this is the dynamic of our cash flow. And they're able to explain that to someone who hasn't got a high level of financial um technical uh technical understanding, they can they can actually do that. Um you can see whether a CFO commands the respect of the business unit leaders. Um and then for a new CFO, it's sort of inducting themselves into that. I think you know it's quite important that they build a good relationship with the non-execs individually as opposed to just collectively. So they take time, they have regular copies, they you know, they make sure the the non-exects understand the financial dynamic of the business. Interestingly, where I'm chair, I usually ask the CFO once a year just to give us an update on how the financial dynamic of the business is changing. You know, we did this in all of them just as we were entering the COVID thing, and it was really helpful because then people are making you know balanced judgments about you know what they're doing because they understand how this will play out.

SPEAKER_05: 25:30

And so are there any top tips that you can give our listeners? Perhaps they're a CFO new to role, um, or and and they just want to make sure they're starting off on the right foot with with their board. What what have you got any recommendations for them and practical things that they can do?

SPEAKER_01: 25:46

Yeah, so if you if you want to build your power with a group of people, that will come from you know your positional power and your personal power. Now, given the board has got a higher positional power than the CFO, uh, the CFO will need to basically, you know, obviously be very good at the day job. Um, but if they really want to be uh to excel, they have to and not instant, they're not you can't microwave uh strong relationships. They take time to build. So you know they they have to invest the time in getting to know the non-execs, understand the non-execs and the execs, and be really good at at thinking of themselves as being in that intersection between those two groups. They have to be trusted by both. There'll be times they have to challenge uh both, and there are lots of times when they have to support both. So I think that's that mindset actually helps a lot. And it's not an instant thing. Yeah, you can't pour a sachet into a cup, put some hot water in, and you know, you've got a nice drink. It this is something that takes time to to mature.

SPEAKER_05: 26:58

Absolutely, and I I I I I really now understand why you use the triangle, because I can see the triangle between the the board, the CFO, and the CEO, because that CFO is helping the board to understand that financials while still feeding that information into that CEO. I can understand why if one part of that triangle isn't an equilateral one, then you can end up in some real hot water. So that's a really great way of doing it. And and when you're actually sort of having those conversations with, you know, with the board members, would you change your approach depending on sort of the their their experience, their background? Or would you, you know, and how responsible is the CFO for making sure that the board have a good financial understanding generally? Because that's my that's probably a tricky part of being a CFO, isn't it? Making sure the boards actually understand the finances without offending anybody by talking at too low a level.

SPEAKER_01: 27:57

Yeah, it's really important. So I can give you two examples. So at uh at the EY Foundation and ESSOHI chair, you know, for any new um trustee, because they're charities, they're trustees, and we have young people on on the boards um who haven't got um you know uh the experience or haven't got the financial sort of training and understanding, it's just as important for them to have that. So an important part of their induction is understanding the financial dynamics of the organization. When I joined the board of the University of Warwick many, many years ago, the finance director was excellent at taking me through how the finances of a university work. So I think, and I think by taking on that role uh of CFO, you know, it'll save them time and hassle and tension later. You know, if they can if they can make sure their uh non-execs, their trustees, whatever the sort of uh organizational frame is, really understand, you know, the fundamental drivers uh from a financial perspective in in the organization, then you know, they'll probably make better decisions. You know, the worst position for a CFO to be in is where you know the board are taking decisions which don't make sense financially. Um and then that's just gonna cause them a huge amount of problems later. So they have a real interest, I think, in helping the board you know, make the right judgments. And no one's got a monopoly on wisdom. You know, sometimes they'll get that right, sometimes they won't.

SPEAKER_05: 29:32

Yeah, absolutely. And I and I um I I think it's uh it's a really interesting dynamic, and I and I love your your your focus on those relationships. I can understand why that's so critical. And uh, like you said, they've got to be amazing at their day job, but actually, you know, in terms of the numbers, but it's so much more than that to being a successful CFI. So so any last thoughts, any other top tips that you just you know that our listeners can take away?

SPEAKER_01: 30:00

One of one of my most important sort of learnings actually as a kid uh was that it's really important to listen to what people say. But it's even more important to listen to what they think. And if you're a CFO that can see into the thought bubbles, um that can be enormously useful. So understanding how people are feeling, what they really think as opposed to what they might be saying to be accommodating or to be polite or whatever. And I think the best CFOs can read the thought language, read into the thought bubble.

SPEAKER_05: 30:42

I love that, and that is a that is a cracking way to end the podcast. Thank you, Patrick, to to be able to see into the thought buddles, to be able to focus on what they're thinking rather than what they're saying. Um, because yes, that can that can definitely be uh at two opposite ends depending on the individual. So thank you so much, Patrick. That has been incredibly valuable. And I think there's another book in there about you know CFOs and the board itself, how to be an amazing CFO for the board. I think you know, there's a few more books in there, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01: 31:17

So quite possibly.

SPEAKER_05: 31:23

But uh thank you so much for joining us. And um, if if obviously if our listeners want to think um to learn more about what boards are at or what a good board looks like, and um and read into some more of your insights. And I think you've got a chapter, haven't you, in your your book on the relationship with the CFO and that side of things as well. So if they want to learn more, where do they find your book?

SPEAKER_01: 31:43

Is it is it is Amazon the best place, or is it you can find find the book from uh I think there's a there's a discount on governance, the my my publisher. So if you look for uh a governance, uh and you can get it on Amazon, uh all good bookshops.

SPEAKER_05: 32:00

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01: 32:00

Well and there's a Kindle version as well.

SPEAKER_05: 32:03

Uh as there should be, I must admit, I'm I'm a Kindle girl myself, so that's the uh that's always the preference. So thank you so much, Patrick. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. And uh yeah, um I I literally I think I could have talked better with on this topic, so thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 32:19

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_04: 32:20

One of the hardest things I think is actually putting into words what it means to work with myself and the team here at ITAS. Um, because not only are we a financial transformation consultancy, but we do it using Sage technology. And so rather than me tell you how awesome we are, let me introduce one of our customers.

SPEAKER_03: 32:40

I'd recommend ITAS as a Sage partner, um, not only because of their knowledge that they have on the product itself, um, Intact, but also their friendly and professional approach to the whole project. Um they've been incredibly flexible throughout the process, but also challenging us as a customer to really think about what it is that we're after and ensuring that intact was actually the correct solution for us to meet our to meet our needs, which was really refreshing rather than feeling we're just being sold a product that they offer. Um we've got on really well with the whole team. They've been hugely approachable, um, helpful throughout the whole process, really putting it as an ease if you know anything we kind of felt um we were struggling with or difficult. Um it really helps us to understand some of the complexities with the new system that that's different to other finance systems, things that we've just never come across before, like the new dimensions and understanding how that actually works.