CFO 4.0 - The Future of Finance

252. Financial Transformation Live: Transformation Trouble-shooters November Special

• Hannah Munro

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In this Transformation Troubleshooter episode, Hannah Munro and Neil Lynchehaun tackle two real scenarios sent in by finance and operational leaders wrestling with change. They cut through the noise and give practical, experience-led guidance on managing competing priorities, handling resistance and keeping transformation efforts on track.

What the episode covers

  •  Why misaligned leadership priorities derail projects
  •  How to define ROI early so cost concerns don’t dominate later
  •  Ways to balance the natural tension between speed, control and risk
  •  How to use stakeholder management, individual conversations and senior sponsorship to regain direction
  •  What to do when a team member becomes disruptive during implementation and how to reset the room
  •  Practical facilitation tools

Links Mentioned

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly. Moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition. To win at work, drive your career forwards, and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Monroe, Managing Director of ITES, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

SPEAKER_03:

Hi guys, well, the best laid plans. So this is the second time we've launched this Financial Transformation Live. Hi everyone, my name's Hannah Monroe, MT of ITAS, and with me today is Neil, our head of delivery. And we were incredibly excited when we first started the session to talk about this. But those that are watching live may have noticed we had some technical issues. But we think we've nailed it. So we're keen to crack on and see if we can get this running. So as I was uh saying in our previous piece is that this session is all about um our Agony Aunt transformation troubleshooter. The purpose of it is to bring real life scenarios that come to us um either from customers or from, I get quite a few messages on LinkedIn, um, to talk about various scenarios that come up during a transformational change project. And I think the first thing to say is that if you have had, if you've got a question, you've got an interesting scenario, even if you don't think it's interesting, send it on through to myself and Neil. We're really keen. And between us, we've got, you know, I'm not gonna put an age on either one of us for telling you how many years, but I'll just say a lot of years of experience. Um, both across, you know, Neil's done a lot of work with the big four and some of the the top-level consultancies, and mine's very much been in practice delivering to um Sage products for I think the last uh, yeah, over 10 years, and that's all I'm going to say on that topic. So let's get started. We we thought we were there earlier today, but our first scenario that we have um is an interesting one, right? Um the leadership team um uh can't agree. Finance keep talking about cost, ops are pushing for speed, IT just want less risk. Every meeting ends up in circles. How do you get people with completely different priorities to actually agree on a direction? Um and I don't think this is unusual. And I think we're gonna we're gonna do an initial reaction from both of us, and then we're gonna talk about this specific scenario because I think there's some more context that will help take it through. But it is challenging when you have lots of teams, multi-stakeholder projects where everyone has an input, even though it might sit within one team. So that is always an issue. So I'm gonna go to Neil. What was your reaction to that particular comment, Neil?

SPEAKER_01:

Let's see if I can be consistent here. So my my initial thought is that these things actually don't compete with each other. They are attributes that the solution should show. And I don't think there's there's actually a contest between um speed, control, or or or security and efficiency. I I think they actually work hand in glove. It's finding the way to work hand in glove that I think is is the is the key challenge there.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and I my first reaction when I got this email was to go, where, like firstly, where in the project are you actually up to, right? Because if you're at the end of your project and having these discussions, something's gone very wrong at the beginning, right? Um, and this person was about to go into a scoping session. I was like, hang on, you haven't defined your project objectives, right? They could be multiple, right? But you're you've not agreed what you're trying to achieve for the entire business. So that's the first thing. Like, if you want to get people going in the same direction, you have to have a consistent and agreed business outcome that you're looking to achieve, right? Whatever that is. Now, you can make a decision around which platform um might offer varying degrees of um satisfaction to the different requirements that teams have, but ultimately you have to measure that against the business outcome, right? Um, and and I I don't think from so if we think about the different elements, right? Um, IT are worried about risk, right? So then you need to go, well, what does risk, what risk does that mean? Is that, you know, and how do you, and and I think every business should be looking at risk with any kind of transformation project. Um, so does that mean risk in terms of the solution that they're putting forwards, or is it about how we're approaching implementation? Um, ops are pushing for speed. Um, and I think helping them understand why, you know, there is a saying, so it's more haste, less speed is a real thing, right? You need to get behind that. And then finance keep talking about cost. So, finance, if they're talking about cost, then you haven't nailed your ROI in the beginning, right? If finance are talking about cost at any point during the project, right, you need to kind of go back and saying, this is what this is why we're doing this project. This is with the intended ROI of this project, this is the outcome that we need. Yeah. And this is why we've put this budget behind it. And if that has changed, you get you should be going back and going, do we still have the ROI? Yeah. Um, and if and if you haven't, you perhaps need to get behind you, you know, you can deal with the the finance piece by just going and getting behind return on investment. So the first piece, just to summarize that I said, is now why you are doing what you are doing. As part of that, establish the business case, right? Because if you've if you're gonna save 300k over the next three years, that is what finance need to decide where they're gonna approve the budget that you need to deliver that. Yeah. Okay, so you need to have established the return on investment. And if you haven't looked at, if you're struggling to do that or you don't know how to do that, I'm gonna do a quick plug and say, check out my previous episodes on ROI. Um, and then thirdly, with less risk. I think that's a fair challenge, right? IT should be challenging you on risk. They should be asked, but I think you need to say to speak to them about understanding which risk. Yeah. Is it um delivery risk? Is it the technology risk? Is it you know, they're concerned about how you're approaching. Um, and then I it feels like you need to get ops and IT together to find the balance there, would be my my view. Neil, further thoughts?

SPEAKER_01:

Um I I think that that's all great. I would offer a uh a perspective where let's say we take the the lean mindset. Um if you think about the things that you're trying to achieve and put them into the perspective of your customer who's gonna pay you real hard, Luca, to uh to do the things that you're doing, those things that satisfy the customer, so whether it be the speed, the cost of control, whether it be the the cost of of delivery, does a customer uh appetite for it? And everything else that you do is either an operating waste or is something that you should be eliminating from your business. That could steer you to where you focus on is the speed the right speed? If we go any faster, are we are we wasting energy? Are we doing that for our own purposes or for the customer's purposes? Is the efficiency right for a palatable price model for the customer? Does it does it meet our our stakeholders' needs for the business performance? And you know, in terms of say IT risk or any other considerations, is the cost of control of that risk right for meeting the market conditions that we're going to to be successful as a business? And I'm sure that one, are we getting the the requirements right in terms of the business outcome? Then we can start looking at, okay, how do we make this work together? You know, can we put um uh a better balance between efficiency and speed? What can we eliminate from the process that delays the process but also in introduces cost? You know, so there's there's areas that we can look at very pragmatically about how we look at those requirements and evaluate whether they are truly valuable to our business or whether we think they're a good idea.

SPEAKER_03:

And very often people will push for speed if there's a burning bridge, right? Either they're worried about something or it there's something that's really hitting them day to day, right? So the piece perhaps to get behind is there any short-term like quick fixes that you could put into ops to just kind of give them some breathing space, right? Because, you know, it I think you have to, you know, and I and this person is is a PM, right? So um this, I think the piece to get behind is, right, is to evaluate w who actually has a point, right? You know, you need to understand how valid their concerns are. So if IT are pushing for risk, right, you need to listen and almost evaluate that risk as the first thing. And if ops are pushing for speed, there's probably a reason they want that speed, right? Either they're manually handling so much stuff, they've lost a couple of staff, and you know, they're really worried about how they're gonna do the day job without this new system, right? And I think that in itself is a risk that IT can take on board and understand. Yeah. Um, so I think that's the other thing is you've got to find a middle ground. There's n it's very rarely that the answer is one person's answer. It's normally a compromise, and that doesn't necessarily meet everybody's requirements, but it does that. The other thing, if you haven't considered, and what one of the key things for this person I did suggest was phasing, right? Sometimes smaller chunks that gives people the feeling of winning and achieving success, even though you don't go all of the way, takes people off feeling that they're not, they're not doing something and the business and the pro this isn't moving forwards. So you have to give not only the you're not just doing the change, you have to give them the feeling like you're moving forwards, even when you're in the planning and testing phases, right? And so some ways that you can do that is by taking smaller chunks because it can be exhausting going through implementation transformation projects when they're in very long timescale. So, you know, this person has an 18-month time scale. And I was like, well, just think about how you can chunk it down, how you can get some early quick wins into smaller pieces rather than trying to do everything. Um, because that that just helps you get the feeling of progress and momentum. Um, and I guess some extra context to this one, Neil, that you won't have is that they were, they'd been through, they've been promised a system for a very long time, right? They had a new ops person, um, they had some staff leaps. So all of this stuff was kind of feeding into it. So they, I guess, you know, that that itself poses a challenge is actually having empathy for each other in these pieces, you know, and this poor PM was in the middle of a firing line dealing with, you know, I guess the senior leadership going, you know, we all want, you know, we all want these things and that can't, and that and that's difficult. So, you know, just align with that because very uh um certainly this person wasn't in the leadership team, right? Which makes it even more challenging because you know, so have you got any advice for somebody on how to manage those senior stakeholders better so you get the result that you want?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, okay. So I, you know, I I often refer back to to John Carter and um the you know the the things that lead us to success. There's um and I think this is a theme that might pop up again a little bit later on. There's we are businesses often lose sight of why they're bringing in a system, it becomes the project to put the system in, and we lose sight of that business outcome that you were mentioning earlier, Hannah. What are we trying to achieve with this? Um and it's generally the senior stakeholders who you know came up with that uh burning platform for the business to do something, they came up with an investment case for it to achieve something, but over time that's been lost in the messaging, and they might not be present. There's a difference between support and approval I've seen over the years. Support is where the senior guys get involved, and and you know, they say, That's a blocker I'm gonna remove. You know, this is what we're trying to achieve. Let's stay focused on it. Everything else is a distraction, and I'm gonna remove any blockers for the for the team. In terms of engaging those senior stakeholders, stroke their egos, ask them to be the influential people who can remind you, the team, what is it that we're trying to achieve? What does success look like? What's our vision for this? Why are we doing this? Then we can get into the nitty-gritty of the doing this and making it happen. And um, I I often talk about top and tail, you know, ask senior executives to be the senior executives and stroll in, say something incredible that you scripted them to say, let them stroll out and let them stroll back later and say, This work looks looks wonderful, and say the thing you scripted them to say. Um, I'll be very sneaky. One of my the secrets I've used over the years is giving senior people mantras, a list of 20 things to say repeatedly. So it's they don't know why they're saying it, but ultimately they end up believing it because they say it often enough. Um and it sets the right message. It's a real sneaky tactic, but it's worked a treat over the years. Um and and and use the senior guys for you know, that they've got a passion, they want to be there, they want to achieve something, and they want to look super smart in front of everyone. You know, use it.

SPEAKER_03:

I think it's true, and and I think sometimes we forget that you know there's normally something behind it. Like people don't normally get into senior roles without having something about them and either a passion or a skill set that the business needs, right? You know, there are exceptions, but generally um they do that. So I think first, I think the piece I would say, and what I did say was get your stakeholders in, you know, speak with them individually, right? You really need to understand the motivation. So very often when people and different SMT individuals are at loggerheads, it's because they've got things that they need to achieve, right? That this is critical to, yeah. Or, you know, they're worried about the accountability behind something. So I do think in this instance, getting behind and having separate conversations with each of the individuals and going, where's the worry coming from? Yeah. Why is this here? You know, and and sometimes it can mean going up a level, it can mean having a conversation saying, I've got the team, they all have fair views, but I'm struggling to find a way to get them along. As, you know, as a project manager, you're you know, you can leverage, you know, going up a level. You need to be careful not to paint anyone in a bad light, yeah. And just say, I need your help facilitating and helping me understand where the priorities are. And and I would say going if you can go up a level, get your um, you know, managing director, CEO involved at this stage and just say, I need some strategic direction to make sure I can help the team prioritize, probably is a good site as well, because there will be something, because it could be that the ops director's got um some per, you know, some KPIs that they've got to hit and they can't hit it without this, right? So there's a there might be some driving forces that they perhaps don't um you don't understand or know to be able to get behind this. So lots of in you know, lots of things to think about there. And I and I I do think stakeholder management is, and we were talking literally about this offline today, is how the importance of stakeholder management when you're in um an it a tr a genuine transformation and change project, because processes when you're changing them, system when you change them, very rarely hit what only one team. There is often impacts on other areas, and making sure that you've really got hold of those stakeholders, that you've got, you know, your you've got those those influencing areas, and then you making sure you're not going to have somebody just whip out a blocker and a barrier is really key to success in in in genuine transformation and change.

SPEAKER_01:

I I I would I would I've been asked to define what transformation is in the past, Tana, and I think you've you've absolutely hit the nail on the head there. I I think within functions you get incremental change and improvements and efficiencies. It's when you connect two parts of a business together and make how they operate together different, you're starting to transform. That's transformational.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. Um, so we're gonna move on to our second one. This is one actually, Neil, that you sent me. So I'm I'm gonna read it out and then we are gonna then uh I'm gonna give my view because it's the opposite this time, and then um we'll go back to you and talk about the advice that you gave. So, hi Neil. Uh, we've got a member of the team that's really resisting the new system. He's been shown the system and how it works, but he's pushing back as being quite disruptive to the project. Any advice? And this is really common. I've gotta say, we've seen this in a few projects, right? Um, I personally think it goes down to their why behind the system. So it's I would say that depending on whether you're directly managing it or whether you're having to deal with that is is a challenge. You know, that you know, I perhaps would approach it differently, but I think the key thing is to understand where the resistance coming from. And depending on the type of character they are, I would probably approach it differently. I think if they're being disruptive though, the first thing is you've got to take this offside. I think that's that's one thing I would say is try not to approach it in the middle where others can see and hear you going through this process is to very much pull that person aside and try and understand deeply where this is coming from, where because I I like I'm I'm a big believer that sometimes even though you know some of the objectors and the people that are pushing stuff off, sometimes they actually have a point in, and I think making sure you're listening to it before you get to live is really important.

SPEAKER_01:

So, Neil, you what's your how do you You've already stolen some of my thunder there, Hannah?

SPEAKER_03:

Right, we're on the same lines then Lee.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and uh and in all fairness, the uh the person that came to me with this for this um question was in that mindset anyway. So, you know, um let let the the the the person that's been a bit of a disruptor, there's no malicious intent in it, it's not somebody who's kind of objecting for the sake of it, they're just um they're seeing it hard to see the value of of doing the new thing that they're doing, yeah. But they're influential amongst their peer group, and so they're taking the peer group with them, and in fact, they're even taking their line manager with them with a oh yeah, yeah, never thought of that. Sort of kind of thing. So the person as for the ISIS has actually had that one-to-one conversation with each member, and there is no real argument against it other than this is the way we're doing it, and it's gonna be hard to get used to, and we're used to doing it this way. So far. Um so so the advice that we had a conversation. We actually this is a live um a live uh bit of help. So um we had the conversation, and actually echoing remarkably some of the things that we've already talked about, there's a piece about the why, what are we trying to achieve, there's a piece about managing the dynamic in the room, um, and how to conduct that, and there's a piece about dealing with the what if there is a a little bit of an issue. So, in terms of the um the managing the why, it's exactly the advice is exactly what we just covered before. There was a business purpose that the person was brought into into the business to deliver this program. The there was a ticket that they were brought in on. That ticket was to grow the business through particular. I won't go too detailed because it might get recognizable, but it was to grow the business through an opportunity which the business wasn't taking because it wasn't well organized and it didn't have the means to be successful in. So it's an area of obvious opportunity growth for them. Um, without you know, kind of having to scale the business, they can really go after new opportunities here. Um that has been lost in communication. So the first piece is kind of a a refresh on the messaging and the training sessions with a top and tail from the the managing director of the business, who is going to be given a script to talk about. There is to help with that, the line manager who had kind of been drawn into the what if um conversation, gonna have a session, those two together with the project lead about messaging and bring it on board. So the managing director is gonna deliver the why, and the sales director is gonna deliver the what does this look like when we're there? This is great, the supported messages. So they're both gonna be scripted in the room. This the piece beyond that is how you manage. So when I when I started doing transformational change with um, I went down the Lean Six Sigma Black Belt approach um oh god, long time ago. Um one of the first films we had first films, the first training session we ever had was watching a film, The 12 Angry Men, you know, the courtroom drama, watching the dynamics in the room there, and there's a piece there about agreeing how to disagree.

SPEAKER_03:

Um haven't seen the movie. Um I might be I I'm gonna make you feel old for a little bit, Neil, but I am gonna now watch it and I like the concept.

SPEAKER_01:

So there's a there's a piece there about managing the room.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

In every business, if we're really, really lucky, we've got people with different ideas, different motivations, different thoughts, team styles. You know, if you look at Belboans, we all have different contributions we make. That's wonderful. We should embrace it. When we're going through a situation like this, I think it's the res it's respect for the team to say we don't expect everybody to be loving this or jumping up and down and dancing around the change we're gonna make. But what we want is if everybody can support it, that will be fantastic. We're not looking for everybody to be saying, yes, I think this is the best thing since sliced bread. But if you can support it and you haven't got serious concerns or objections, that is is is fantastic, and that's where we aim to get to. If we can't get to that position, we will take anybody's objections seriously and explore them. For the purpose of today, I want to capture those on a car park. Um, we will spend 30 seconds to a minute to understand the nature of the point, capture it, and move on. Is everybody okay if we do that? Can everybody support that? And amazing that you'll start taking a group with you with about the conduct of the session. If the disruptor is disruptive during the session, you'll start finding that you get peer pressure um drive driving their behavior rather than it being something that you have to fend off with several people lining up behind them to beat you up. It's um it you so you start getting this kind of control over the dynamic in the room, you can take concerns away, um, and you can do you know, reel in your executive on the trolley, you know, get get Stig out and get them to do their closing script. This is great, we're looking forward to the our future, this is in our vision, and beyond that, we can whatever. With the if there's a list of things that have been objected to, the next thing is to say, okay, folks in the room, let's say you've got half dozen people in the room, give them five points each and a marker pen. And you can do this for I've done this on MIRO boards and what have you, so you can do it virtually as well. But if they're in a room, you've got your lists on on the whiteboard or on a flip chart, give them a marker pen. You've got five points, allocate them to what you think is the most impactful of the issues that are being raised. They can allocate their points to all of one, they can distribute them across, they can allocate them over to done. The rule is it's done in silence. You don't let anybody else influence how you do this or what you do. Um let people score, tally them up, there'll be one that stands out, and it more often than not, it's not the one that the person who was a disruptor was going on about, it's something else completely. Then you could in that session or as a follow-up session, you can do a problem solving. What would it take for us to get past this? What would it mean for us to be successful at this? Okay, make sure that this the issue is kind of it's factual, it's framed in a measurable way. So if it's sort of like we always miss this, okay. What do we miss? How frequently do we miss it? Why is it an issue? Okay, what does it mean to our business? And then just go into a structured problem solving. Why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why until you get to the thing that is the root cause, deal with it. It's probably valid, it's probably genuine, and if you treat it in that way, you will give the the folks who've got a concern a sense of being listened to and bring them along on the journey, and they they might enrich the solution that you're going for. I won't go into it right now, but you can look at structured brainstorming sessions like um fish boning as a means of getting there and things like that. But I I think if you just manage that dynamic, use your senior stakeholders, use peer pressure, and agree the rules of how you're going to conduct yourself in the room, it it will help you build success.

SPEAKER_03:

There's some really great points in there. And one of my favorite tactics is you know, I love your use of um peer pressure. And and I have had it where people have continued with that. And and the way I've always done it is the flatter. So look, you're obviously really knowledgeable in this area, X, you know, person X. Um, but I think it's important we're fair to everybody in the room, right? And the use of the word fair is purposeful because people don't, there's a n like there's some studies around this, but there's an actual natural tendency. People don't want to be seen as being unfair to others. They want to be seen by their peers as, you know, um, as in, you know, not just important, but also treating them well. So, you know, and you can really change the dynamic with the use of the word fair in a room. So that's that's one other tip to think about um when you're having these conversations. Um, flattery does go a long way, so sometimes it can soothe some wrathful feathers. Um, but it I think it is important. And I and I really just to re-emphasize Neil's point around that, you know, getting objections down without inf undue influence from others is so important because it's really easy to do, you know, to get that group think piece. If you've ever seen the I talk about this a lot actually, the elevator um, you know, the elevator video where they the experiment they did where they put you know set five people in an elevator. Only one person didn't know about the experiment. Everyone else in the elevator turned the wrong way. That person felt so uncomfortable. They turned around as well. And the same is true, right? You can people can be so focused on aligning with their team because you know, if if if it's a good organization, you're trying to get people aligned, right? You're trying to create that culture of we listen to each other, we we work together as a team. But sometimes, if you like you say, if you've got that disruptive um element within that team, you can end up people going in completely the wrong direction and and not a great way.

SPEAKER_01:

So I I must say that over the years that I think these flattening these you know breaking down the group dynamic and uh and you know flattening getting inclusion um is is the most valuable thing. I I I used to have a little bit of a saying and it's adapted over over since COVID. Um I I used to have the mantra transformation is done standing up. So you know, don't sit round at a table and debate it because you'll only get 20% participation and and you know, slow pace. It used to be brown paper up on the walls, post-it notes, and everybody gets a pad of post-it notes and in silence, get your ideas up there, boom bum bum bum boom. Doesn't matter if they're duplicating, if you think you're duplicating somebody else's, it doesn't matter. Get up there, you might mean something different. And it made sure that the people who are usually kind of really uncomfortable saying something in front of others or they're worried about a dynamic, get the things up there, and then we just we got it discussed. In this in the digital day and age, you know, there's things like um uh soft there's whiteboards and various solutions that enable the same approach, the same practices, just include the people who don't usually have a voice and control those that uh can be over inf influential through silence, brainstorming, um, and peer pressure. And you know, agreeing the rules of conduct at the front.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Neil. As always, I love uh talking this through um and uh debating and what what I always find funny is we we we're aligned, but we have almost different points to bring through. So that's always uh a great sign for us. Um so so for our listeners, if you've in enjoyed this session, then please do reach out. If you have a scenario, like I'm always looking for inspiration, and some of the best sessions that we have on the podcast are where people have said, can we cover this? So if you've got a scenario, a question you've got, we'd love to have it. Um and uh yeah, we'll happily play Agony Ants to your transformation problems. Um, and for those that missed uh last um the last session I did, I just talked about a slightly different way to approach um uh identifying the right um software for you. I think the way that technology is progressing right now in the world of AI and um, you know, and and the pace of change that we're experiencing means we do need to think differently about how we approach requirements gathering and going out for RFPs and all of that. So so we've actually I so I put I gave some ideas and thoughts on how you can help speed up the process, but also make sure you find not just the right tech, but the right partner that can help consult and take you through a genuine transformation journey, not just a technical implementation. So that that session is now on demand um and is uh is available both on the podcast and also on YouTube. Um, and if you know, um if you um have enjoyed the session, just so you guys know, we won't be doing a December transformation um uh live um just because of uh Christmas and all of those things. So please do keep an eye on the podcast. We've got some great podcasts coming out. Um but um I did want to say if you are enjoying these sessions, perhaps you know somebody that's in finance, um working in construction, and would be interested in getting into digital change and transformation. We're actually recruiting. So please do reach out. We'd love to hear from them. We we love working with both people from industry um and those that have actually worked in businesses doing the day-to-day job because it makes I I genuinely feel like it makes them better consultants. So please do reach out. Um, hope you've enjoyed today's session, and we'll see you next time on a financial transformation live. Thanks, Neil. Really appreciate your cheers everybody, bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00:

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