CFO 4.0 - The Future of Finance

253. Data first, People first: The making of a modern finance function with Matthew Robinson

• Hannah Munro

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In this in-person conversation, Hannah Munro sits down with Matthew Robinson, Financial Controller at Zebra Pens, to explore the realities of running and transforming finance inside a small but ambitious business. 

This episode covers

  • Why small-business finance needs pragmatism, balance and the courage to let go of total control 
  • How Matt rebuilt finance around risk-based thinking, strong foundations and the ability to switch off at the end of the day 
  • The hard lessons of a difficult first implementation 
  • How Zebra Pens is moving towards 21st-century operations with integrated systems

Links mentioned

SPEAKER_04:

Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly. Moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work, drive your career forward, and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Monroe, Managing Director of ITES, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

SPEAKER_05:

So hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. I'm actually really excited. Um, not only as one of my first times recording in person, but I get to do it with an actual customer. So I'd like to say a very warm welcome to Matt Robinson from ZebraPens. It's great to have you joining me today.

SPEAKER_02:

Nice one. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_05:

And uh not only in your lovely offices, I have to say, with some of the best and most appropriate wallpaper we've seen.

SPEAKER_02:

It's uh dazzling, isn't it? Let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_05:

You can't get away from it. So so Matt, just tell us a little bit about yourself. So how did you end up here at Zebra?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's been a it's been a long, long journey, I guess. Um I started out in Audit um with KPMG, it's one of the big four accountancy firms, um, auditing some of the largest companies in the UK. Um, then took a career break and went back into Audit with a small one office firm and enjoyed being f feeling like you actually wanted when you're in the when you're coming into these businesses and in the audit room, like you were dealing with small, you know, maybe family-owned businesses, owner um owner-managed businesses that actually valued your input. And I think it's at that point I realised kind of being in small business was what I wanted to do. You're actually making an impact, making a difference. So um that was my time in audit, and then I moved into industry uh with a company called Henry Bath in Liverpool. So that's um a global warehousing and um logistics of exchange trader commodities, which was interesting, it was a huge learning curve. Uh I went in as an internal auditor and I was promoted to accountant for the uh Benelux countries there. So that was good. I'd learnt a lot. Um and that's that's where I really started learning about um internal management accounts, how I can leverage um different processes to to work for me, um take take the weight off me and and um really automate what I was doing. That's probably the word I'm looking for, automate there. Um and then uh it took a bit of a gear shift and a bit of a passion project opportunity came up where um the football club I support, Tramia Rovers, were looking for a new head of finance. So I moved there, um, yeah, as head of finance and company secretary. Um only ended up there for 18 months, um, but it was again a huge learning curve. It's pulling itself in so many different directions, just trying to turn a dime in a way, trying to just get that edge, get get that extra bit of revenue to then put that money onto the pitch. Um, just an entirely new way of thinking about business compared to where I'd been previously. And then opportunity came up at Zebra, um, which was too good to turn down, and I came in a finance manager and I've just been promoted to financial controller. So that's me.

SPEAKER_05:

Fantastic. And and I guess obviously you look after the the finance function here at Zebra. I I guess what's your philosophy or your your vision for how you want finance to operate?

SPEAKER_02:

Um shouldn't take itself too seriously. Shouldn't be a blocker to letting people get on with their day jobs and do business. Um there's absolutely zero need to be putting in all the hours and staying pulling all nighters. Um leverage as much as you can so that you can get that laptop lid down and go home. I know it's not all finance, all I know of from KPMG, I I did work till like 2am some mornings on certain clients. Like I have been there, but um it's not what it's about at all. It's about it's about efficiencies and um and being able to switch off at the end of the day, it really is.

SPEAKER_05:

And I think that's so important. So a lot of people are probably sitting here listening to this, going, yeah, that sounds great. I'd love to be able to walk away at four o'clock, shut the laptop and not worry. But talk a bit about like how how you approach that. What have you thought about in order to get yourselves there?

SPEAKER_02:

I rightly or wrongly know that I can't control absolutely everything. So um I don't know, maybe is it more of a risk-based approach? You you kind of accept that if you if your processes are sound, if you train the people around you appropriately enough to spot certain things, you know, you know, you're you appropriately trained yourself and keeping on top of any you know current technologies, current legislation, whatever it is. And if you have like all all these things in place around you, then matter shouldn't slip through the cracks. It's what you know, you're building up your defence layers in a way. Um and if you've got everything in place around you, those solid foundations, then that should mean that the those instances that cause you to like have to stress and pull all nicers or worry about this and worry about that, that should all be absorbed by everything around you, I think. It's another huge thing as well, particularly in small business and slightly gear shift from what I was just saying. Um if you know what's happening with your cash flow, yeah. Everything else drips off it.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um if you're in control of your cash, if you have a really good understanding of your cash flow cycle and you know you know 52 weeks down the line, like where your cash should be and exactly what's going on with the ins and outs of that, then you can sleep easier at night. If c if cash is fine, then that you know perfect else will drip off it for it.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. Cash is king, like we we've been saying that for years, and it's so true.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_05:

And so you obviously mentioned about thinking about automation processes, but also you mentioned you can't control everything, so you need to risk assess. So how do you find that balance between letting people just get on with the job, but also making sure that you have got the right controls in place?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, so on the people side, um, if I forget on to the second part, please remind me. On the people side, um, yeah, look working in small business, you you cannot micromanage. You've you've got you've got people that they'll end up taking on funny responsibilities. There'll be a gap and you go, well, that person who's doing that as their core role has a bit of capacity, so they just end up taking on a responsibility that might not strictly be in a large company, they wouldn't be doing those two kinds. You've got to trust that you you hire the right people who have a broad range of skills that isn't too specific, and then and then you can hand on hand on these different tasks and they'll take it on and bellish it. And uh, you know, it's a great thing about working in a small business. Anyone coming in is gonna be is gonna have exposure to a lot of different lot of different facets of the business. And um yeah, you you just you gotta trust people as well, and um if they make mistakes, it's fine. You're there to you're there to train them and help them along. And um Yeah I guess that's it. It's just it's just trust. You know, you you get to pick you get the higher rights in the first place and then trust them to trust them to um just let that shine through, I guess. Um second part of what you were saying, um controls.

SPEAKER_05:

Controls, yeah. Because with automation, I think sometimes it can be a bit scary to just let the system do its job. And I think with AI coming, that's going to be even more scary, right? Because it it you know it's starting to think for itself a little bit. So how do you think about finding the balance between automation and control?

SPEAKER_02:

Automation and control. Um Yeah, I think I think the big again in small business is actually winning winning people over and kind of bringing them with you on that. If you if you implement any control or try and automate any process and then and but the people don't get the buy-in and don't want to shift away from their previous manual process, then it's gonna fail anyway. So it really is that kind of explaining to people why you're making that change, why you're doing something whilst you're while you're implementing something, and um making sure everyone comes along with you on that. I think that's the biggest thing. So it is it is the people aspect of it. Um so as an example here, um credit controller approach to credit control, we don't have a credit controller, we do or not, we don't have the luxury of being able to employ someone to just do credit control. So we have a kind of layering in place that um puts the onus back on the sales team to kind of check that the customer's credit control history is is sound and then they can process the next order. And we got a lot of pushback on that. People ask me, well, it's not why I'm not a credit controller, why are you why are you getting me to do that? But actually, it's just a few common sense steps, it's showing them in Sage Intact where to go and actually find this information for themselves. It's literally just a click and you've got your answer, and you don't need to come and bother me and wait a few hours for your answer. So, as an example, that's that's how you kind of bring people along with you, show look, it's really simple, just go this, and there's your answer, and you can move on with your day without having to wait for an answer from me. So that's a very simple example.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, but it's actually a really good piece because I think sometimes we underestimate the power of actually enabling the wider organization to have access to finance. I I I do spend a bit of my time trying to convince people to let people other people see into what's happening in finance, getting access to that data. So that's obviously something you've really embraced.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it was every every industry role I've been in, that's that's been the the cornerstone. It's it's teaching the non-finance, uh, my non-finance colleagues, um, what they should be looking for, how they can look at it look at some numbers, look at those kind of fairly basic management information I'm giving them and kind of spot things for themselves, um, spot trends, stuff like that. Um Yeah, I was uh particularly in my previous role at Tramia Rovers, I'd you know, a lot of micro departments, it was 13 departments, really, no, and that's done, stadium catering to the club shop to the international business. And so you've got 13 managers there who not from a financial background at all. So I'd send them management accounts every month and they just didn't know what I'm sending them. So we we had workshop sessions uh teaching them, uh you know, I'd teach all the managers like what they're looking for, what this means, what gross profit means, what what a ratio is, you know, fairly basic stuff like that. And straight away they're more passionate about what they're doing because they they're understanding the the end result and what management are then looking at, or senior management are then looking at and expecting of them a bit better, particularly when you know payrolls link to maybe performances. It could be at manager level, suddenly they get a lot more interested, you know. Um and that's yeah, and it just takes so much weight off the finance team if if you've got managers going out and spotting things and and trying to trying to, I don't know, whether it's reduce costs or improve a margin somewhere. And if they're doing that for you without you having to get into the numbers yourself and look at that, it's just takes so much weight off, you know.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned obviously you've you know, um if you think about the organization now, so what's what are people accessing now that perhaps they didn't prior to you guys shifting to stage and tan?

SPEAKER_02:

Um so yeah, I think real-time customer information is is a big one. Um going back to this this thing of credit control, they can, you know, on the spot see is their customer account up to date, um, they can get some really good information on kind of their current margins. Uh, you know, when they're talking about pricing, if they can offer any discounts, they can they can see like what kind of what the throughput is for each customer and and they can kind of decide on whether a customer's entitled to a discount or a rebate or whatever mechanism, sales mechanism it is. Um they're using data and a bit of science to inform that decision rather than just a bit of a finger in the air type thing. Um yeah, it it it just across the board well, yeah, particularly with Sage and Tact, it's just across the board in improving the time or reducing the time it's taken to just get current information into people's hands. So I think that's been the huge thing, really. Um we had Sage 200 previously, which was a great system, but um it could be a bit slow, it could be a bit clunky. I thought I find the flows in Sage and Tact just make sense how you navigate between screens and and kind of that process through getting information, it just it makes a lot more logical sense. And then the obvious thing is with it being cloud-based, you're not you're not worried about your system going down. Like Sage 200, you if if your server was having a funny day, you could just not have access to it for three hours, you know. So that that was a big thing. So um yeah, I think just all around, I I can't really put my finger on like one huge gear shift that's given the business, but it it's really just nudged the entire business along. And as we get further into developing state, I mean this is a great thing about Sagentat, we haven't just got a system, we've turned it on, and that's it now forever. Like we're just gonna continue developing it, and we've we've got some um yeah, I I understand I can't name them individually, but we've we've got we've got some great developers working with us at ITAS who like really get the business and they're really they're really um passionate about like improving our systems to improve our business.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, no, and and I think that that's the important thing. And what I love is that you've got that attitude because I think a lot of people come into I'm just gonna suffer through the initial implementation and then it's just gonna be perfect. And actually, I I think it takes a change in mindset, especially when you've got regular releases, there's all always new tech coming out to have, I guess, that continuous improvement mindset.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And how do you roll that through finance? Because obviously you guys, and we'll talk about this in a bit, had a bit of a tough initial start to your implementation. Um, like now you're through, it's live, it's working. How are you, I guess, trying to make sure that the team are focused on continuously making it better?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I I well, taking a step back. I said during our kind of internal catch-ups throughout the development phase, I just said when when we go live, it it's um can't swerk on it. I said it's it's we can beep it out. It's going to be difficult is what I said. Not quite. Yeah. It said nothing nothing worse as you hope when you go live, or if it does, then well done to you. Um I said it, you know, it w it will be difficult, it's gonna need continuous development, and it's gonna need my team here, or our team here, sorry. Um to feedback because I'm I'm not getting into the nitty gritty of processing orders and kind of working with the system on that granular level in certain aspects of the system. So you know, I I I need your feedback on what's going on and and said to them actually, you know what, just don't don't come through me, go direct to ITAS with with your kind of development points. Um and they've done that, and that's been great. And I I think so again, it's it's that great small team mentality, they don't have to go through layers to develop things. We can just go buy bypass me, go direct to ITAS. Here's a development that's gonna make my life easier. Do it. Um, and what really helps us, um, you get a response from ITAS almost instantly. I don't I don't want to promise that feature. Yeah, please don't. Uh in our experience, it's been very quick. It's you're not just you're not waiting. I I hate it when you get that automated email back. We are very busy at the moment. You are you always that busy? And we'll get back to you within three to five working days. It's like, right, okay. So it's in our experience, you don't get that at all. It's um you don't you don't get that horrible automated email response straight away. You get a human coming back to you very quickly.

SPEAKER_05:

I must admit that's always the that's the piece that I'm personally really passionate. I think it's really important that when you're stuck or you need something, you can reach out and speak to a human. Um we we had a lot of debate about you know automated systems, but for me it was always super important that you can pick up the phone, you know, or send an email, whatever method you want to use, rather than just waiting for a an and a response back in a in an online system. So yeah, I'm really glad that you've had that experience. And I won't promise any of my other that we'll deliver within a second, but Hannah's face when I said that. Oh my god. But it, you know, I think um we've always had that philosophy of you know, underpromise and over-deliver. And it sounds like you guys have enjoyed working with the sport team, and that's super important.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's it's been phenomenal, it's been an absolute pleasure, genuinely. Um and yeah, as you touched on, we um itas were not our initial development partner, um Force Agent after decision that was made prior prior to me joining Zephra, which I hastened to add, um was to use a different partner, and um I just think they miss they misunderstood um what we were trying to get at. We we were we were trying to change things in our system to now allow more dynamic reporting. We need to we need to get into quite granular detail about our products. We we have like maybe 700 different SKUs, um, and many more are coming on board all the time. And we need to report back to our parent in Japan, maybe about different collections of SKUs, they all they all form into different you know, different types of parents. It's something I'm still learning about, but um we need to get quite granular on that reporting, and Sage 200 wasn't letting us do, and it was a lot of download the report and a lot of manual work around our system, whereas we wanted to get as much of that in intact as possible. And um I think the the previous development part and I just kind of misunderstood, and it was a very fixed solution they came up with, which just didn't work. And um I knew we had to go in a different direction because they weren't um so I know you didn't necessarily ask this by the way, but it did, but it does bring us it does bring us to like how we how we um can really harness Sage and Taft. Um and yeah, from the first the first call with our developer at ITAS, they just completely understood what I was getting at. And actually it wasn't it was actually we needed a very simple solution, and it's just it was just about um harnessing the dimensions in Sage and Tact properly, and it well once the penny dropped in my head on how that worked, um because because your developer explained it quite simply and knew what they were doing. I felt like the previous developer just didn't fully understand that dimension system and how it could be harnessed, whereas obviously you guys have been using the system first UK company to to go to bring it in. So um yeah, you knew exactly you knew exactly how to answer our needs, and um that will be the biggest thing in the in the long run when um we can fully we're still learning like we've only just come on board of Intact, you know. Excuse me. Um so we we we still have a lot of learning to do on how we fully fully fully harness the full power of what the system has. But um I know we're set up properly, that's the main thing now. Yeah. I know we've got the starting point correct. Um we'll only improve from that.

SPEAKER_00:

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SPEAKER_05:

So one of the things I think is really important that you brought out, and I think a lot of people forget about it, is that when you're implementing a finance system, it's not it's not a technical implementation. It's a data, it's a process, and and it's a technical piece. And I think you're part about understanding your data structure. So obviously in Intel, we have dimensions, and you know, and we are very lucky, they are incredibly flexible. But whatever implementation you're working on, I think one of the key things that people need to think about is how what they want out of it. I think everyone focuses on what they put in without thinking about the reporting, and then they end up with a challenge that you know that you guys had in terms of it not quite delivering what you wanted out. So, how did you think about the data structures and the reporting and how you put that together in order to get the solution that you've got today?

SPEAKER_02:

That was it for me. We look any any account system can uh process some invoices and apply every account system at its core is the same. Like as an auditor, I used to go into businesses and you know, one week here, one week there, and every business had a different account system. You just need to learn how to get in quickly, and you you quickly learn every account system at its core, does the same thing. So for me it was very much the the starting point was the end point, which sounds a bit uh cussing that word out there.

SPEAKER_05:

Start with the end in mind.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. And we we it was very much like we what excuse me, what what was the point in changing system? Um it was to get much more enhanced reporting at the back end and and reduce reduce the amount of as I as I just said, the amount of off system workaround I was having to do and running formulas and pivots and stuff to find information. Like needed to get as much of that in as possible. Um and as well, we just we have blind spots and our reporting to head office, like it's it it it can be quite boring stuff, but we um okay, we have a we have a pen and it could just look like a straightforward pen, but towards it's like what type of ink does it have, what type of barrel does it have, what finish has it got on the barrel? And we really have to go into that granularity, and head office really needs to get into that, and this is about knowing whether we discontinue certain lines or push certain lines or is the pricing right, and then and then it also comes into transfer pricing as well, but that's a whole different matter. So we do we do really need that granularity. So um I knew we had to get that endpoint right, and that was that was the focus really. Um yeah. I I mean I'm not I don't I don't come from a technical background, I'm more of a you know I have an accountancy degree, but it's an arts degree done from a social sciences background, so I'm not I'm not massively technical, so for me it's it's definitely that architecture of what you what you can get out the back end. The inputs into any account system are always the same, so I don't really worry about that. Um you wouldn't be offering me a product that didn't do the basics, you know. Simple as that. Um so yeah, I think that's that's that's where we are really.

SPEAKER_05:

Um and it must have been quite a challenge, because obviously, so do you want to just talk about the scenario that you guys have? Obviously, you came in, was it in the middle of the implementation? Sorry, it was at the beginning of the implementation, or what at what point did you get involved uh start with Zebra?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's so I think um kind of initi so with the previous develop developer, I think initial scope and calls had taken place, but that was done by so I was the first kind of in-house senior finance hire the company had ever made that had previously been outsourced.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Um so initial consultation was done with an external accountant as well. So again, probably just focusing on again the core inputs rather than worrying about from a from a management information point what's coming out. Yeah. The other end. Um So yeah, I I came in as as we were starting the development piece, and as I said, we were we weren't just trying to go like for like, we were trying to add these new dimensions and really enhance what we were doing, and so I I was trying to how do I put it? We were yeah, we weren't just going from trying to replicate exactly one position to another, we were trying to do more. Gonna just just my mindset really. It's like why why why change one thing when you could change 10, you know? Yeah. Make it better for everyone. So um yeah, just push it all through in one go, it's fine. I'm I'm very much not that, oh let's take change slowly, I'm very much let's just change what we can overnight if it's gonna make everything better for everyone. Um so yeah, um, yeah, so I I I mean I did come in early on development process, but it was quite a fraught process um with the previous developer. And I I think maybe it was because we I again like I I was probably slightly changing my scope as we went on, which I know is a nightmare for any for any developer. Like you if you if you if the person on the other side doesn't match your mindset, then I think that's the huge thing. And I again that the maybe just look at the draw and the availability of the developer for my tasks we had, but but again, that individual just has the complete same mindset as me and just totally gets what I'm trying to do about changing all these things at the same time. Um we just struck lucky there. But there there was a particular it was when the dimensions thing wasn't captured, and I'm I'm doing my own research online and kind of seeing what Sagent Task should be doing, and when the the previous developer wasn't offering that full capability, I kind of knew something was wrong. Um you didn't ask, but the particular reason I got in touch with ITAS was because there was one particular thing I was trying to do. Um I was trying to apply a contra, simple as that. I was just trying. Uh we have a lot of contra arrangements because just the nature of the business we're in, dealing with large retailers, and um I didn't know how to do it. Sage 200 had really good functionality, so it's one one slight downside of Sage Intact that we can give it the contra functionality for whatever that's worth isn't great. Um and um I was just trying to find out how to do it, and I just googled how to how to do it and um uh iTAS guide on how to apply contras, and I thought, well that worked pretty well. I'll pick up the phone to them. And um, very glad I did.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, it's great that you've had that experience. And I think from my perspective, there's a key part here is um so I'm a big believer in matching consultants to customers, right? Because I I do feel like you've got to have somebody that's on your wavelength and get how you operate. And I and and we we often will have a discussion internally about who should we match with this one, both in terms of industry. I think experience obviously matters in terms of do they work, but it's also about personalities and cultures and how the thing, you know, how they think can often be a factor in that and what the customer needs. So it's it's lovely to feel that we, you know, we we really got it right with you guys.

SPEAKER_02:

It absolutely did. It really did.

SPEAKER_05:

So tell us a little bit, obviously, you know, it's not just about the technology, it's about the people. So obviously you came in and perhaps the the guys were dealing with a lot of change. How have you helped them through that process? Talk about um how I guess the people side of the change.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, uh it's it it really is the the biggest side of any any change project. You like I've already said, you have to bring people along with you. If you don't get the buy-in from people, then you can you can implement whatever system you want, it's never gonna work. Or or might take longer to work, is probably the truth. Um see uh we have I I just have regular sessions with people, almost like constant reassurance that um yeah, it's gonna be painful on painful in the short term because any system change is is painful in my experience. It's you know, you you don't you don't make a system change because um you just fancy it as a bit of fun.

SPEAKER_05:

It's not something well you us crazy people like doing it for fun, but it's normal finance.

SPEAKER_02:

I guess that's why you've gone into that business. Exactly. Um but no, it was and a lot of the people uh we've got working here haven't been been through a system change before and and certainly haven't been at a a high level where it's impacted on. Been an active part of making the change work. Whereas I I have been through a few things in the pa in my career and I've kind of led on to you. Maybe, maybe not of this scale, not a complete new account system. But I've been I have been through different system changes and so I just reassured them like you know I've got experience of this, I'm I'm I'm the right person for you to be leading this, but also um yeah, your your your input is gonna really be needed to to make it work. Um as I said, reminding people it it's not gonna be straightforward when we go live it won't be perfect from day one, it will need development, but just saying to people, look, it's fine that it won't work absolutely as as we want it to from day one. Um not but not because I had any specific reasons why I knew it wouldn't work, I was just just more just more in general these these things are never perfect. And um yeah, we're you know, we're fortunate we've got a small team and a small team that's really passionate about really is passionate about the business, likes coming to work here. It's a nice place to work. I think just working with a nice product is is a great starting point for it, just gives you that first 1% to enjoy the rest of your day, simply. I th I think it does, it does for me anyway.

SPEAKER_05:

Um yeah, um so and I really like the conversation there about because I think sometimes we feel like we have to be overly positive and everything this is gonna be amazing and really excitement. And I think there's something about being clear about the why behind the direction and being motivational, but there's also a balance about being authentic. Okay, guys, this is going to be tough. We will get through it, we will be better once we get through it, but we're gonna need, you know, everybody to jump in.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that I mean that was the the pointer. Um I yeah, I should have got to, which was that it was that constant reminder of and the long-term benefits of this are gonna be huge. So it is worth the short-term gain. And and the reasons why we had to make the change, we haven't we haven't just done this because we fancy that like we really did have to move away from the old system and the old kind of backed up on a on a decrepit server type system that we had. We had to move to a 21st century system. That the whole business has has gone through a kind of complete root root and branch change on how we how we work operationally, how we work with customers, really getting into the weeds on pushing pushing margins, frankly. Like, you know, we we deal in like um high volume, low margin stuff. So to really turn the dial, we have to really get into the weeds. If we can like nudge a margin by like a penny on something, it has a huge impact on the bottom line. Really? Yeah, so that's that's what it's all about. So it's a remind it's that reminder to people this is the next stage in that process, having a system that's gonna let us scrutinize even further what we're doing. Yeah. Um and it's just gonna help help the bottom line in the long run. Um and then the I guess the next the next phase was reminding people that yeah, say the implementation of Sage and Tact is just stage one of three new systems that were coming in. So if if you don't jump on board now, you're gonna be way behind when we get to the third system. So we're we're we're in we've never had a kind of a proper warehouse management system, despite essentially being a you know, a wholesale warehousing business. So we um yeah, we're we're two months away from going live on Bright Pearl, which is another Sage product, uh, which will integrate with Sage Intact, which would be phenomenal, and then the third phase is to uh bring Shopify on board for both a direct-to-customer sales platform but also a B2B portal so our customers can log in and place orders on a portal rather than having to like wait for their salesperson to come and visit them or whatever it whatever it is. So yeah, it's it's really bringing ourselves into the 21st century. I mean, my our managing director, Andy, won't mind me saying that we almost got quite lucky and that we had we had really good, really good contacts with these with these large retailers and and uh a good product to sell, but the actual processes behind how we were working were quite archaic. Uh and we probably we probably have left a lot on the table over the last few years just because the processes weren't off the scratch and um you know errors or or not getting the margins quite right, but we're we're putting ourselves in a position to really, really get every last drop out of it now.

SPEAKER_05:

And that's the thing, I think sometimes it can be hard to justify an investment in new software. You know you need it, but it's really hard sometimes to put a number on the value of that until you've actually experienced what what the good looks like as well. And I think that's always one of the challenges.

SPEAKER_02:

It's it's a huge step for it's what our turnovers about eight million in the UK, and we're investing you know, a really good, chunky five-figure sum in in these new systems this year alone. And it we're fortunate that's self-invested. Uh we haven't we haven't been able uh we haven't had to you know go and borrow this money or finance it in some way. Like we are fortunate we've we've been able to self-fund this. But um yes, you you know, and it's it's a it's a management style as well. I think I think previously the business, previous previous managements have just gone, yeah, well no, we'll it it's not broke, so we we won't spend the money and but you know we'll we'll just kind of trudge on. Whereas Andy, our current MD um started about four or five years ago, he he just totally gets the need to like invest and constantly improve. And so that's why I wanted to come and work here, because it just matches my mindset as well.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and I guess that's key part. If you're gonna lead finance, making sure you've got an MD that you're on the same wavelength with as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. He he's Andy's from a sales background, so it self-admittedly just leads me to get on with it. Which is he trusts he just he just trusts that um you know, I may obviously obviously drop drop enough bits back to it to show that I to show that I I know what I'm doing. Um but no, it's um no, he again my attitude that I've thought about of trying, you know, trusting people to get on with their jobs and trusting they have you know they there's a reason they got offered the job in the first place. And Andy's exactly the same. He's very, you know, he's got enough on his plate to worry about micromanaging me, you know. Yeah, particularly as he self-admits, doesn't know much about what I do day to day anyway.

SPEAKER_05:

And finding that's important. So so when we look back, if you had to give some advice to somebody going into an implementation, right? And you know, based on what your experience, what would you have said to the previous guys about how how you know how they think about systems and processes?

SPEAKER_02:

That's a good question. Um I mean the the given is is be comfortable with who you've who your implementation partner is. Um as as I said, we I kind of I kind of changed scope a couple of times during the process. I kind of realize once once I got into knowing what what the system could do, I I wanted to then kind of change how our data was set up to match that. And even like, you know, we've we've changed the chart of accounts, um, actually reduced the reduced the size of the chart chart of accounts. And you need someone who when you say this to them, they're not gonna sort of huff and then go and grumble about how it's a change of scope and immediately jump to well it's gonna cost more money. Yeah. Um whereas you just want someone who totally embraces that, works with you and goes, Yeah, then that's a great idea, and and how about this? That's what you need, you know. Um and then uh generally just accept that um yeah, as as I've said a few times now, it's it's never gonna be perfect, and it will be challenging, and there'll be times where you want to scream and not c not come into work that day, but or even not jump on a call because a planned call because you know it's gonna be difficult. But yeah, you just have to like I said, I'm not I'm not massively technical myself, so you are you I'm placing a lot of trust in in people to kind of understand sort of my more abstract idea of what's going on and and kind of cut through that and get that from a technical point of view, you know. Uh so yeah. I'm good, I'm comfortable with we're in the right place now, you know.

SPEAKER_05:

Fantastic. And obviously, you know, I guess what's been the impact on the wider business? You know, have you had any feedback from from Andy and the the wider team on the change in finance?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think I think everyone um our kind of operations team is sort of integrated with finance and that they're they're processing orders and process you know, both sales and purchase orders. So we're sort of more integrated that way. We're not completely separate teams. But um yeah, just the feedback, even from even from the first launch, agent uh, just to you just hear the murmurings of like, oh god, this is so much quicker to use, and this is this is just letting me do my job easier.

SPEAKER_05:

So obviously you're not from a traditional sort of accounting and technical background. Like what do you think that you bring to the I guess that sort of finance role that is different because of that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think I think I have a I'm I'm a probably like a good all-rounder to why it works in small business. Yeah um I think um I said, you know, my my going back to school even it was more it was more social sciences and arts type stuff and um with a bit of you know um interest in kind of business and economics, but then you know I did work at a big four firm as well where you are expected to be sort of super technical, but it was the I was you know admittedly like the the side of the job I didn't really excel at. I was better at um talking to management about their numbers and maybe maybe leaving the the kind of more the the technical updates and specifics of you know um financial accounting, probably probably more to my colleagues. So uh I'm able to um offer a more rounded service, I think. So and that you know, and if I'm I'm never gonna be able to go into a big corporate and and just be treasury or just be, I don't know, tax planning or something like that. It's just not the way I work. I I need to kind of touch across all bases and then lean on experts where I've got gaps in my knowledge. Um you know, so I do I do I do need in this case a strong a strong systems developer, but uh you know, I rely rely on my kind of audit my auditors for like sound tax advice. Um it's you know it'd be silly to think I was A plus in absolutely every aspect of accountant. So I have to be general, I have to be across everything. Um but yeah, it's where I am. I'm just not afraid to admit where I've got blind spots, you know.

SPEAKER_05:

But I think some of and I can say from experience, some of the best like leaders that we've had in, you know, and and seen massive change in most of them are. I don't I think everybody's human. There's there's there's sometimes this worry about admitting where you've got a gap in knowledge, and actually I think that's great that you're you just go, yeah, and just bring the right people in. That's the point, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

That's it. Um I have had I you know I've had experience where that is then used as a stick to beat you with, and it's uh that's not what you want as well. Like you you want you don't want someone to take advantage of where you're kind of open them opening up and showing a bit of a weakness. You do you do need to you you hope someone understands that and works with you and not doesn't doesn't exploit it, you know. Um yeah, which is something that's you know, or you can spot it's happening and you just cut a relationship there if you like that you're you're just exploiting this. Um so yeah, it's um no, it's it's it's really important to and I think that helps with the the the the project management, people leading, whatever you want to call it, it's um admitting to people that you know you you are on a need for help to get through something is is the way to go.

SPEAKER_05:

And I think that's some great advice and and a great piece to to finish the podcast. And I want to say massive thank you, Matt, for bearing with us while we figure out how to do an in-person podcast. Um and to our to our listeners, I hope you've enjoyed this one. I genuinely would love your feedback on the content and the structure because obviously very different doing it in person, but I actually really enjoyed that. So um thank you so much for listening, guys. Of course, as always, if you've um got any feedback, if you've got some questions I should have asked Matt that I didn't quite get to, I'd love to hear them. Please do reach out to me on LinkedIn and uh a massive last thank you to Matt for participating.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you very much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05:

One of the hardest things, I think, is actually putting into words what it means to work with myself and the team here at ITAS. Um, because not only are we a financial transformation consultancy, but we do it using Sage technology. So rather than me tell you how awesome we are, let me introduce one of our customers.

SPEAKER_01:

Working with ITAS has dramatically made our lives simpler because there's just such a knowledgeable team there to help us. Um, before we felt the consultants were working with at another company, it was always a challenge to get the information out of them for them to understand the problem, and it just didn't feel like they were on our team. Working with ITAS, it's almost we just feel like you are all employed with us to you know, work with us to do it. It's an absolutely fantastic relationship, and it's just made it's such a smoother process and an absolute fun process working in stage intact and coming on our calls. Um I look forward to it now.

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Hannah Munro

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