267. CFO 4.0 Revisited: How to make your next digital transformation project a success with Mark Lockton-Goddard

In this CFO 4.0 Revisited episode, Hannah Munro is joined by Mark Lockton‑Goddard, now Founder & CEO at embracent, to explore what successful digital transformation really looks like for finance teams.

With over 25 years’ experience across global organisations, Mark shares practical insight into how CFOs can approach transformation decisions, gain buy‑in from their teams, and avoid common pitfalls when introducing new technology and processes.

Relaunched ahead of the new financial year, this episode is a timely listen for finance leaders reviewing how prepared their finance function is for what lies ahead.

In this episode, we cover:

• How CFOs should approach decision‑making for finance transformation
• Gaining employee buy‑in for new systems and processes
• Common mistakes that cause digital transformation projects to fail
• Key focus areas when modernising finance departments
• How finance teams are adapting to meet today’s business demands

Links mentioned in this episode:

• Mark's LinkedIn
• Sign up for our CFO Briefing and Podcast newsletters

• Explore other CFO 4.0 Podcast episodes here.
• Subscribe to our Podcast!

Transcript

CFO 4.0 Opening Theme

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly. Moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition, to win at work, drive your career forward, and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Monroe, Managing Director of iTest, a financial transformation consultancy and she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people, and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

Hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. I am your host, Han Monroe, and today I'm talking with Mark Locton-Goddart. So Mark is the CEO and founder of Embracent, a digital transformation and strategy company. And we're going to talk about what it takes to implement a successful financial technology project. So welcome, Mark. It's fantastic to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_04 1:13

It's great to be in here. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Well, because you've had quite an interesting journey to starting Embracence and doing what you do now. So tell us a little bit about your story. Where did you start?

SPEAKER_04 1:27

You know, it's uh yeah, it goes back some way actually. And uh I started out in technology back in the day um up in the north of England uh when I was doing quite a lot of software development actually. I try not to tell the team that I've done too much software development in the past because you know I try to keep that one quiet. But I actually started out doing quite a lot of technology for the stock exchanges back in the day. Um and I was writing in um, you know, DOS and all these different programs. So I came back, I came from quite a technology kind of heavy uh heritage and then worked for a number of different businesses in the in the north, in uh in Bradford and Leeds and one or two other places. Um I spent quite I I've probably got two or three parts to my career actually, which is uh I think is quite helpful for me because I spent quite a long time in consultancy. So I uh worked with uh big four consultancy organizations, more latterly PwC, doing big technology transformation programs all around Europe and mergers and acquisitions around technology and you know, kind of proper, deep kind of technology consultancy work. Um I then spent about eight years out as global CIO of some large businesses working all around the world from California through to Hong Kong for people like Michael Page, um FedESA, which is a very large um uh derivatives trading platform, big kind of Fotsy 250 PLCs. Um, and I I really loved that. I did that for about eight years, but I also found that I missed some of the consultancy work that I used to do. Um, so I decided to create a consultancy business that was probably what I wanted to be uh doing uh when I was at the big four, and you know, without kind of um doing them down because they do a fantastic job. When I was in PwC in the big four, I spent a lot of time talking about how to make the big four more money, you know, how to make the consultancy more money, and and less time, as I got more senior, talking about how do we help clients, how do we really stand in their shoes, how do we really help them embrace technology. And Haypress, though, that's where our company name came from. Embrace and uh means embrace new technology. Because there's a lot of talk about technology being disruptive and you know it's all very glue. And I thought, well, that's a bit negative, isn't it? Because if we think about how we can really embrace technology and do consultancy in the way that I always wanted to do it, so much more pragmatic, hands-on, you know, very much uh the antithesis of the kind of um slick-looking consultants in black BMWs. Um, you know, I wanted to make sure that we could do that in a way that clients could relate to, we could just do some great work with some very nice clients, and that's what we do now. So I had a you know a bit of a heritage around technology, a bit of a heritage around consulting, then wasn't the sharp end as a CIO of a of a range of businesses where it was quite challenging as we went through different uh kind of digital transformations, and I've seen the good and the bad of that. Uh, and now what I try to do is bring all of that and the team that we've got here to help businesses do technology in a pragmatic and sensible way. And and our strap line is we help make sense of technology. Um, because there are lots of people who sell you stuff, and lots of people will, you know, kind of try and persuade that persuade you that it's very, very hard. And some of it is complicated, but actually, you can also do technology in very sensible, pragmatic, realistic ways where you drive the benefits of a kind of a much more um sensible path. So that's what we're trying to do. We're we're not trying to be too complicated. Um, we do some complicated stuff around automation, especially RPA, especially um data analytics, especially. We do some clever stuff, but we try to do it in a way where we're not trying to make it clever, we're trying to make it simple.

Why Tech Programmes Really Fail

SPEAKER_03 5:15

And I think that's a great so I often talk to our team when we're going into projects about it's there there is a bit about, like you say, the practicality of implementing systems and being realistic about goals and getting away from all of this this jargon about digital transformation to actually talking about what does that mean for that customer and how do they make that change and go into it and look at it in a way that drives an impact. And, you know, rather than trying to do everything at once, I'm a I don't know about you, but I'm a massive fan of sort of you know, small wins, get you know, getting the team onboard approach. But enough about how we approach technology, I'd love to talk about how how you guys approach a new technology project. If you're speaking to a client, what are some of the conversations that that you have with them at the start about what they're looking to achieve and how they're looking to approach?

SPEAKER_04 6:06

You know, it's um having been around these kind of technology program projects for you know far too many years now, um the there's we've done quite a lot of analysis, and I've done quite a lot of analysis over the years as to why programs fail. Um and it's hardly ever the technology. It's mostly about client expectations, it's mostly about client dynamics, it's mostly about leadership, it's mostly about change management, it's mostly about things that are not specifically about the technology. Um, so one of the things that we try and do right at the beginning is understand the client. And what I mean by that is that we've got some companies that we work with that are very we're quite fortunate in that we've got a range of clients that we work with, right? So one end of the spectrum, we've got um a wonderful client, which is, you know, the I think Europe's largest manufacturer of sausages, right? So that's that's really kind of one end. And then at the other end, we've got a very corporate bank, okay, and we've got everything in between. And every one of those clients is different, and their ability to understand and embrace technology is different, and their teams are different, and their capabilities are different. So, what we probably spend quite a bit of time doing right up front um is understanding what works and what doesn't work within that client's environment, what capabilities they've got, what expectations they've got around technology, what are they actually trying to achieve? Um, because there's a there's a you know, one of my phrases is you've got to try and slightly avoid the shiny new toy mentality in technology. You know, everybody gets excited about I must have, you know, whatever the latest phrase of the day is. And let's call it robotic process automation now, because that's you know intelligent automation. These these great buzzwords, everybody gets excited, I must have one because somebody's told me I need one. And you know, in a very simple way, we we kind of say, what are you gonna do with it? What do you want from from it? What's your expectation? How is that gonna make your world better? Because coming back from the technology, I think there's always a real need to understand what are the business outcomes, what are the business benefits, how is it gonna make your life better? Um, and um, you know, I've had so many conversations with people over the years. I remember one um about six years ago with a group of finance directors, and there were 15 finance directors in a room, and myself, and uh, we were talking about technology, and I was talking about this technology roadmap um for the for that business over the next few years. And they were all saying, we need cloud, we need cloud, we need cloud. Um, so you can tell the date of this. This is probably, yeah, maybe eight, 10 years ago. We need to move to cloud. And I said to them in a nice way, look, if I asked each one of you what you actually mean by cloud and what cloud is, you'd probably give me a different answer. There's 15 as in the room, you'd probably get at least 15 different opinions. What you actually, I think, want is flexible, scalable cost management of your technology platform. Do you want to move something that's to agile, do you want to get some benefits out of it? You maybe want to save a bit of money, and you want to be not constrained by all this on-prem hardware in the future. So, what you want is an outcome. What you're saying is I need cloud. And actually, cloud might not be the answer at that time, and some of it some it was in some ways and it wasn't in other ways. Um, but you know, it's pinning it back to what are you actually trying to achieve, um, clients? Because so, so to answer your question, Hannah, I think what we do is we we ask those kinds of sometimes difficult questions, and sometimes questions that people don't like answering because they just want to buy a shiny new toy, and I've decided I need a CRM platform and an ERP platform, I need to upgrade to Oracle or whatever it might be. I I've made my mind up about what I need. And we probably ask some of those awkward questions and say, well, okay, what are you going to do with this? You know, how's that gonna make your business better? What are the benefits that you're going to track? Are they realizable? Can you track them? Do you understand what you're going to do with them even if you can? You know, it's all those boring, difficult questions that we ask, because we know that those are the things that are fundamental to project success. If we have a clear goal, a clear set of benefits, a clear set of outcomes, then actually we can navigate programs pretty well. Um, but you know, when it what I find is the ones that go wrong, they were kind of set up wrong in the first place because it wasn't those things just weren't clear.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

Yeah, and I think, do you know what? It's a really interesting piece around um what you're talking about about focusing on the outcomes. So um I've noticed is an interesting trend that's happening at moments. People come in with like lists of features that they need rather than, and and the the challenge is is that then becomes a tick box exercise rather than a conversation about let me help you make the most of the technology that we're suggesting. Um, and and and it and it and I've I've noticed it happening more and more, especially in things like tenders, where rather than sort of using the the knowledge of that technology, and because every technology is slightly different, there's some commonalities, but there's ways to use it, I will, in my personal opinion, to make the most of it. And sometimes you can be, you know, forced into going down a route where it's actually, like you say, it's not actually tied to what they're trying to achieve. It's just a a tick box of is it cloud? You know, is it, is it this, is it that, rather than actually, you know, what are we trying to achieve with that that feature rather than um a piece. So I think that's a really interesting point. And it's certainly a trend that I'm seeing at the moment.

Scope Creep And Commercial Reality

SPEAKER_04 11:35

And I think, you know, to your point there, uh increasingly, especially with the options that we've got available with technology now, you know, every every company, you know, this side of California is coming up with some new products every five minutes. So so with the technologies that are available, there are so many different ways of solving problems. Um and that's useful, right? Because you can pull and pull off on different levers based on what's important at any one point in time. So that's good, but therefore it's even more important that you don't have a tick list, that you actually rely on people who know what they're doing to say, what I'm actually trying to achieve is this. You know, you tell me what the different options are, because otherwise, what happens is you just go down a very standard route. Uh and, you know, um, that's not always the right answer. The simple answer is let's just upgrade the system that we've got, let's just replace, you know, let's go with the standard. And what you'll find is that that will give you a reasonable outcome, probably, but you might be missing some really great ways of improving customer experience, improving employee experience, driving out benefits because you're not allowing the people who are the experts to say, yeah, that's great, but have you thought about this over here? Because this, okay, it's only been around a couple of years, but what we're finding is it's got massive impact in an organization. So, you know, it's it's it's it's important to allow the flexibility and the freedom for you to consider things that you might not have thought about before. Um, but also you've got to be sensible. You know, I think um I I I uh another project that we were involved in reviewing um was a was a program that was you know going way off track. I think the original budget was eight million pounds for this technology program, and and they'd called us in at£15 million because they thought, hang on a minute, this is this is a problem. Um and there was a there was you know what had happened is over the time the scope had changed, people had added in different requirements, and it all just crept along in a slightly different route. And and I remember talking to some of the team there about one particular change. Um, just to example to give an example of how this you know kind of creeps along. One particular change was going to cost£250,000 for this one particular module component feature. And I said, Well, what are we doing that for? Who's that for? And it was for one particular client, for one particular scenario, they needed to do some invoicing and some billing in a particular way. I said, okay, great. How much does that client make us per year? Uh profit terms, about£20,000 a year. So we're going to spend a quarter of a million pounds for a client that makes us£20,000 a year to give them the service that they need. Would it not be better off to just go and talk to that client and say, can we do this a different way, please? Um and in reality, we then did go and talk to that client, and guess what? They said, Oh, that's okay, we'll we'll work with this in a different way. So um and that's what happens. You know, if you if you focus on the technology too much, you actually stop thinking commercially, you stop thinking about the business, and you stop thinking a little bit more laterally about how you can solve problems. Um, and that I see that all the time. People get fixated on the technology. And I you know, I'm saying this is a technology consultancy, so you know it's probably not uh not a great marketing message in some ways, but at the same time, you know, people get fixated on the technology and forget the business side and the commercial commercial side. Um, so we just pull three people back to that.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

And I and I think that's a really interesting point about not designing your systems for a small percentage. If we think about, you know, the 80-20 rule we hear about it, don't focus 80% of your technology development on the 20% of people that might use it. Um, and I think that's a really good takeaway for anyone that's listening is just to, yeah, the weird and wonderful scenario is one of the uh one of the questions that has to be asked is how often does this actually occur? Because the amount of time, and you know, um a bit like you guys um as consultants, we spend a lot of time just challenging some of the questions and you know, asking the why, why are we doing this? Why do we need that in the first place? So yeah, I think that's a great point.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

I think I liken this. Uh I was talking to one of our clients who's a CIO of a very large organization. I was saying, we channel the inner five-year-old. You know what I mean? It's like, why'd you do that? Why'd you do that? Why do you do that? What's that about? Why'd you do that? We ask lots of why questions. Um, and you know, it's you'd be surprised how many times we get the kind of the response which is, well, that's what we thought we needed. We kind of haven't really, you know, when you ask us why, we don't really know why actually, you know, we now we now need to go and think about that, you know. So uh so yeah, that's that's always um, you know, ask it's always important to ask those why questions. And having been on I I've you know, I've uh been on the receiving end as a CIO when I was used to be a CIO uh and also in consulting of some fairly big programs that have gone way off budget and they've gone way off track. And and a lot of the themes are the same, Hannah. They are really, you know, it's just about people losing sight of what's actually important and getting carried away with the technology.

People Change And Quick Wins

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Yeah, and and I and I really like that theme and you know, a work in technology, we love technology, um, and we think it's the best thing to slice bread, but you're 100% right, you know, that piece around um folk and often very often it's processes that are the problem, not necessarily technology. And like you say, people is one of the biggest um success factors of any digital transformation project. So, for anyone that's approaching that sort of digital transformation project, what's your your advice when, you know, if they're sort of leading that and they've sort of taken responsibility for it in terms of how they approach the maybe the people side first, what what are your thoughts on and some top tips that you can share on how to approach approach that successfully?

SPEAKER_04 17:25

Yeah, it's um funnily enough, I was having the same conversation with one of our other clients um on the last week, which is they've got quite an ambitious digital transformation program. Um, and you know, it's a fantastic program, actually. I wish I could tell you more about it. But they're really changing the fundamental premise for why they are a business because they've realized that you know they created their business 150 years ago, a great business, um, but the world's moved on, and therefore there's a whole different agenda around how to make this a digital business that's ready for the future. Um, and that's about new revenue streams, it's about new services uh being provided, it's about engaging with customers in an entirely different way. So they really are doing a proper job. They've got a fantastic vision of their digital transformation. Um, and I think the hardest thing that they will have is, in many ways, taking the people with them. Um, because the people, you know, the longevity of service is quite long. They've got a lot of people within the organization that are, you know, um very long-serving, very loyal, very capable people, um, but they've been used to doing the things the way they've done them for the last 30 years. Um and one of the things that we do around the people side is as part of the program, we clearly understand what the vision is, what we're trying to achieve. We try and break that down into what does that actually mean for people? And then we try and create some different personas. So maybe there's a persona of a finance manager, maybe there's a persona of an IT manager, maybe there's a persona of a customer, maybe there's a persona of a supply chain director. We create these different personas and say, what does that actually mean for me? If we go on this journey, what's the journey I personally am going to have to go on? Because one of the things that we find is that getting people on board, making sure that they understand the journey and what it means for them, and somehow demystifying it, taking the scariness out of it, that's really important. You know, we do a lot of finance automation using RPA. We do a lot of automation across businesses. You know, the the usual strap line there is you we're using robots to put people out of work. And of course we're not. What happens is people's jobs change sometimes quite significantly, but they do change, and they therefore the greater opportunities to add more value, to get more involved in decision support and different things, but their jobs definitely change, and and the fear comes from an unknown uh view of what that change is actually going to mean for that person. So we spend quite a bit of time at front saying, what does this mean? What does this mean for the organization? Why is it important? Let's make sure that everybody buys into this vision, and then what does it mean for the key people around the organization and really spell it out? And then it's you know, there's a big piece around change and cons for that. Um I think the other thing that we do, um, which I think is something that we've learned to do over the years, is try and do some things quickly. So, in other words, try and I know we all talk about quick wins and and it's like a bit of a tedious statement in some ways, but we try and find some early, early successes where we actually go, you know, if we've got people that we think, yeah, they are going to be slightly resistant to change, they're going to be slightly worried about this. Let's go and find some ways of making their day better now. Because if we can demonstrate that digital transformation can bring something to them which is great and can make their days better as early as we can, then you get that buy-in. People think, oh, right, okay, I I kind of understand this now. My day is definitely, you know, suddenly I've got rid of all that rubbish task that I used to have to do every month end. I can I can figure this out now. This is great, it's not all bad. Um, so finding those things where we think, let's make sure we do uh a piece of automation or a piece of project or whatever it is, it's going to give you a benefit quickly. And then you think that actually we kind of we do have you in our minds. And that's one of the reasons why also we we kind of you know don't promote this idea of these three-year programs that you know suddenly there's a kind of a drum roll and a ta-da moment at the end when you get everything you want. Um, you know, we we phase things so that you actually get things as you go along, and the benefits ultimately, if possible, pay for the future development work. So, because the whole thing about that is it's um it's hard. Doing digital transformation is hard on people, and it's hard, you know, technologies can be hard, but it's hard on people, it's hard on business change. So you have to keep peep people. People on track by giving them things along the way, you know, giving them things along the way. I I always uh like the the analogy of um you know I I like architecture and building houses and things. So if you ever watch grand designs, you know, they're they're trying to build a beautiful house, and at the end everybody goes, Oh, what a beautiful house. There's always always what that that valley of despair in the middle, you know, where suddenly the the people that own the house have had two more children and they're living in a caravan and winter's setting, yeah. That's what happens in digital transformation. Part way through, you have a bad month then, you've got you know an acquisition to do, you've got other projects that come along. And everybody's thinking, why the why on earth do we do this? Yeah, but you have to keep people on the side, and I think you do that by really understanding what it means for them and trying to give them some benefits along the way. Um, and and then you know, you what you don't have is this kind of passive-aggressive, I'm going to vote with my feet mentality, which is you, you know, you you technology and business people may have a great digital transformation plan, but frankly, I'm going to now carry on doing things the way I've always done them because I'm happier with that, right? So, so that's probably a long answer to your question, but well, what we're really trying to do is understand the impact and then work with people to really make it better.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

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Automation That Elevates Finance Work

SPEAKER_03 23:45

Do you know? I think it's really interesting conversation. So uh very often, obviously, um, when you're speaking to people is and they're talking about, you know, what's your the what's your life going to look like after this technology's in? Um and one of the things people forget is that they've spent an awful lot of time training and learning the skills that they need to do their role, right? If you think about like how long it takes to get CEMA accreditations, ACCA accreditations, you know, even just going to get a new degree in accounting for those newbies coming through, that's an awful lot of time spent to learn how to enter a purchase invoice into a system. And I think one of the fascinating and one of the buzzes I get, I have to say, when I'm implementing new projects is that seeing those people being able to step up and do the interesting bit of finance, the bit that really adds value to that team and the organization, and step out of that role. And I think that's something that people forget. I think they get so focused on what are you taking away from me that they actually forget. And I think a lot of finance leaders forget to talk about this is all the stuff I'm desperate to give you because I'm doing this and I don't have time to do my job because I'm too busy reconciling to make sure that all that information's in the system.

SPEAKER_04 25:03

Yeah, it's it, you know, we we all say, don't we, we we we underestimate the positives and overestimate the negatives, you know, that in change, that's what we do. You know, we don't think it's going to be as good as it could be, and it could it actually might be five times worse, you know, and that that's what we do. But I suspect that I haven't yet met somebody in finance or any part of the business, you know, but I haven't met anybody in finance yet that really went into finance to be able to check spreadsheets at seven o'clock at night, or to be able to, you know, kind of enter it, enter invoices and double check them. You know, they didn't go into finance for that reason, actually. They went into finance because you know they understand the value of you know financial modeling or they understand how that can, you know, the the impact on the business. They they wanted to be able to do much more of this, helping businesses make better decisions, you know, that it was much more the kind of the value add, the creation, uh creative end. It wasn't just to become a number cruncher. Um, so you know, and I think that's what we have to try and reconcile with people, because whilst they didn't go into finance to do that, that is maybe a good part of their job right now. And if we say, well, we're just gonna take that away from you, inevitably people are gonna say, okay, but what are you gonna replace that with? Or are you gonna replace me? You know, and uh and there's that concern, you know, and it's a it's a perfectly reasonable concern for people to have. You know, I think we will most of the clients we work with, they then want to repurpose, if you like, the the that role to be much more around analytics, insight, understanding uh what's going on with the numbers so that you can make better decisions for the business and and spending less time creating the numbers, if you want to say that, you know, and more time analysing and and providing insights, which is I think a probably a much more fulfilling job anyway. Um, but you know, but that most of the companies we we we work with still spend far too much time arguing over whether the numbers are even right in the first place. Uh, and therefore, you know, there's a huge amount of energy that goes into creating the numbers, slicing and dicing them, you know, in wonderful Excel and PowerPoint slides or you know, Power BI dashboards or whatever. There's a lot of energy that goes into just creating the numbers, and and not enough energy goes into, in my opinion, you know, deciding what we want to do about that and and where does that take us and what's the insight and how to add some you know new value to that. Um, so digital transformation in finance is a lot about that actually often. It's the how do we get rid of all that stuff so that you can get your head above the water and go, okay, right, this is this is interesting now, let's start thinking differently.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Absolutely. And I think it's also, and you know, as we know this, you know, it's the speed of and the time that takes. And and I'm pretty sure if I spoke to most people in finance, they'd be quite happy with the fact that they could perhaps leave the office at five on a month's end and not have to worry about the fact that they're going on holiday and it's the third day of the month and they have to time it around that. So um, and that's a whole different world, I think, and perhaps a bit different thinking. But just to go back to your your point around um phasing, because again, um it it's great to speak to somebody else that talks about um you know structuring projects in a way that isn't this big bang. I I don't know why, you know, um why why so many people feel like that's the best way to do it, but I'm a I'm a massive believer in sort of phasing and staging. How do you approach that? So what if somebody was thinking about a new project, how do they identify which pieces to do first? Um, and you know, what would you recommend in how to structure a project to make sure that you you know you're not tiring out your staff in that thing, you're not hitting what what do you call it, the valley of death on the way through your project. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 28:50

I I think there's different strands to it, you know, because often with these big large programs, you have some foundational components that you have to put into place. So they those can some of those can be technology related, you know. We need to actually have a better platform or we need to have you know better infrastructure or whatever. There can be some foundational things we need to do. Um, and therefore, you know, we try and understand what those are quite quickly so that we can plan for those. Um, often there's quite a lot of issues around data because data's often not very organized and not very accurate, and there's some quality issues. So there might be some foundational components. Um, so definitely get those out first, you know, let's understand what they are. And then on top of that, when we're thinking about the actual program itself, we try and tie things back to benefits realization as much as we possibly can. So, so you know, if we understand the different components of the project, different parts of that will drive different benefits. And therefore, then we try and shape a program. Yes, of course, there's a question about how do we shape it in terms of the logical building process. But at the same time, we try and say, okay, but what are the what are the parts of that will deliver some benefits in a different way a little bit earlier? Um, so you know, to use the terrible kind of overuse building expression, you know, we we work on where in the foundations, what do the foundations need to look like? Um, and let's get the general shape of the house. But actually, you know, if we then need to deliver you know the kitchen first, because that's the heart of the house, and therefore everybody feels a bit better because we've got a decent kitchen, and you know, get the garage sorted out because that's where people work from, you know, above the garage these days, we'll start to think about the programming business benefits context. Um, and then we'll try and break things down into modular channels and say, okay, well, how do we deliver that in different parts? Because um, again, you know, I having been involved in many multi-year programs, um things change fast in business. So we all know that, right? Business is changing very, very quickly. Um, and so we tend to try and make sure that we're only looking as far ahead as is sensible. So we might be deciding if we put the foundations down, we understand that we want a four-bedroom house, but you know, we're not gonna choose whether you know the conservatory is on the left or the right yet. We're not gonna choose some of these things that are more agile, um, because actually we might you know have a different view in six months' time. So, so we then take what we call, and I I'm not gonna bore you with technology kind of jargon, but we take what we call the wagile approach, right? So it's uh traditionally in in IT you would have a waterfall approach, which is you design everything up front to the nth degree, and then you build it, yeah. And of course, nothing ever changes in between, so it's perfect, yeah. Uh, and and obviously what came along was agile, which is much more, let's, you know, more like a prototyping style of approach. Let's understand, you know, in much more rapid ways what are we trying to build, do a show and tell mentality around this is what we're building, do you like it? Yes, let's build it. Um, we take a wagile one, so kind of an overarching design and view, but then much more agile in terms of okay, let's do a show and tell mentality of saying, this is what this looks like. Is that what you meant? And therefore, then we can build things as we go in stages. Um and we have this phrase which is think big, start small. So, in other words, you have have a view of what you're ultimately trying to build, um, but probably it's more like a vision around I'd like a five-bedroom house and it must be nice. Um, but then let's think about how do we build that on a much more agile way based on the changing circumstances. Um, and and what we also do, I think, which is probably one of the one of the reasons why some projects don't go well, is we put some hopefully we put some sensible governance around the decision making. Because what you have to have is good good, sensible people who understand the business making the decisions about whether we need a window there or a door there, because otherwise what happens is you can really go off track. So, so having good decision makers who really are empowered within the business and understand the business and what we're trying to achieve, uh key stage gates to say, yeah, I sign off on this, yes, I'm happy with that. Um, and uh and try and not pretend that you know too much. You know, um what uh every project that I've seen recently, you know, certainly didn't um uh predict uh what we've gone through over the last 12 months, you know. Uh so there are these big events, you know, there are big changes in in macroeconomics, let alone your your local business, that mean that you know you can start off with an idea today, and if you just build that and it takes you 12 months to build it, you know, you may well end up with something that's okay, but not not really ideal. So taking a kind of a step-by-step approach is is really key. So we, you know, the design part, we always separate that out and say, well, look, you know, there's no point really understanding what you're going to do until we've decided, you know, we've got the high-level design right. And then we try and build as many stage gates in as we possibly can, so that we're then saying, let's just, you know, let's just run to the next corner, let's just run to the next corner. Uh and that way then we can always, you know, check that we're on track. Um, it also helps us bring people with us because that show and tell mentality, you know, it is how people like to work. They like to see what they're getting.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

No, absolutely. And I think um and to go back to your analogy, don't decorate the kitchen before you've even built the house.

SPEAKER_04 34:12

Exactly. I love the yeah, so so uh and that's that's you know, that's I I know it sounds I'm probably making it sound, you know, kind of fairly kind of um generic. It's an approach, you know, and I think the approach works quite well because the reality is when programs go wrong, it usually is because the there's been scope creep, people have decided to throw all sorts of other things that they wanted, you know, or they've lost sight of what was important as a business objective. So the key thing about that approach is that it keeps you know bringing everybody back, say, okay, why did we decide we were going to do this in the first place? You know, what do what were the benefits that we're gonna track? You know, let's just remind ourselves before we go into the next bit, is that what we really wanted, or has anything changed? Um, and it just keeps everybody pinned back to the business and the commercials as opposed to getting carried away with this shiny new toy.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

No, absolutely. And I think there there is a lot to be said about um um if you think well, if you think about just the environment that we're in at the moment and how quickly businesses are changing and developing. Um, and yeah, I um I love your your concept around you know the framework, the if the framework is solid, um, then you can be agile. I think some of the challenges is when that framework and like you say, that overarching vision, clarity of purpose just isn't there. And that's you know, it all goes back to that. I are you clear on what you're trying to deliver and why you'll do this project in the first place, and have you set the foundations in place? Because if you need to move a window at some point or you know, change where the conservatories, I am gonna have to keep, I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna use that analogy. I'm really sorry, Mark. I know it's a brilliant one. No, I'm I'm not so sure my husband would be very happy about shifting a conservatory round if I'm being very honest. He might let me change the curtains if I'm lucky. Um, but uh yeah, if we if we think about that concept, like you say, if we need to we know how many bedrooms we're going to need and what we're gonna we might need in the future, what we're trying to achieve. But like you say, you know, are we making the best of that particular plot? Are we are we looking at how we should be um decorating and designing it for the you know the family that's gonna live in it? So I think that's a great concept.

Data Foundations With The 80 20 Rule

SPEAKER_04 36:19

Yeah, exactly. And and I think one of the things that's uh one of the things that just to add on to that, probably one of the foundational components that people don't always realize with with these kinds of programs is is data is actually also one of those foundations because uh people get carried away with data and master data management and data schemas and data programs. And and the problem is businesses and especially larger businesses, they have a lot of data and they have lots of different types of data. And and a lot of people start by saying, well, we need to sort our data out in order to understand where we are as a business and move forward. So we're gonna try and fix every piece of data, every bit of data, and we'll spend two years on a big data program to be able to sort out data out. And we take a very different view to that, which is okay, yes, you've got a lot of data, but actually there's some of that data that's really valuable, and then there's some of it, which is probably a little bit less valuable, let's be honest. Um, and and if you then understand what you're trying to do as a business and what your objectives are, you could then value your data. And you can say, this is the stuff that's really high value over here, because that's all about how we engage with our customers, or that's all about this particular product. So if you value your data, what you find is that it's the 80-20 rule. 80% of the data is like, yeah, whatever, but there's 20% that is really, really valuable. And therefore, one of the foundational things that we do with any of the program is fix the 20%. Don't worry about the other stuff, but fix the 20%, because that is the heart of the business. That is the value that you have as a business. It's you know, your customer experience, it's your you know, kind of supply chain, whatever it might be. There's some value there, and let's fix the 20% of data. Let's not try and fix everything. Um, and uh therefore, then that's one of the foundational things because people get carried away on the application. You know, I need to go to work day, I need to go to Oracle, I need to do this, I need to do that. Actually, you can plug and play a lot of these different systems if that 20% of your data is really well understood, because it's the data that is actually valuable. Every five years or so you'll change your systems, but the data and what you do with it as a business probably won't change that much, actually. So getting the data right is really key as well.

Final CFO Tips And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_03 38:34

And and I think to be honest, the 80-20 rule is a great, you know, you should always, anyone that's managing and looking after a project or working with technology generally, just constantly have in the back of your head, you know, head, you know, that 80-20 rule because you it's it's amazing how often it applies. You know, 80% of your problems are always caused by 20% of your your customers, you know, 80% of you know your your time it's spent is caused by 20% of your processes. Like the the amount when you look across a team and a and a business, it's it's it just is uh an amazing um amazing way of looking at things, but actually quite scary if you think about it, how much time we spend talking H20s. So um, as much, you know, I would love to keep talking to you, Mark, but very aware of that clock tick in a way. So have you got any final thoughts for any CFOs that are embarking on a new digital transformation project or you know, are dipping their toe in the water? What are your top tips to make sure it's a successful one?

SPEAKER_04 39:37

Um that's a very good question. Um, I think some of these things we've talked about, you know, know why you're doing it in the first place, um, understand really clearly what it's going to do for you, your customers, your partners, your suppliers, your people, and then try and break it down into some key chunks that are not trying to be too ambitious because it is hard. And I think you have to learn as you go along. You know, this kind of test and learn or fail and learn, whatever the mentality is. I think you have to learn. Uh every business that I work with that has gone through a digital transformation, you know, what they knew six months or 12 months later is a lot more about the transformation, the journey, the challenges than when they started. So don't try and plan everything out from now. Learn as you go along, test and learn, fail and learn. Um, so break things down into channels so that you can then do that process well. And don't be too precious and don't make too many commitments is probably what I would say as well, because people can get fixated on, well, we said we were going to do this and therefore we must do it. And actually, the world's moved on, you know, things have changed. So have a good way of identifying whether something is valuable, getting a good decision making and leadership around that, because it is an uncertain path, it is an uncertain scene, and you have to navigate as you go along to some extent. Um, so I think I would do that, be clear about what you're trying to achieve, break it down into chunks, don't overcommit and test and learn. And obviously find a great partner to work with. Yeah, I've got to get that in there.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

So absolutely. And if um if anyone listening uh wants to learn about more about what you and the team at Abrasent do, then what's the best way to get hold of you?

SPEAKER_04 41:19

I on our website we've got you know various different contact forms. We're also on LinkedIn, you know, um, but just reach out to us, we will respond very quickly.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

Wonderful. So for anyone that's interested, we will of course put the links to Mark and the team um in the show notes. And uh yeah, so we just want to say thank you very much, Mark. It's been a pleasure talking to you today, and thank you for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_04 41:41

No, thank you for that mood. It's been great, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

So, for those of you that don't know what we do here at ITES, so we are a financial transformation consultancy that specialises in stage technologies. Whether that is looking at a new solution, evaluating your current solution, or just helping you to get the most out of your current setup, we can help. But rather than me tell you all the reasons that you should consider working with us as a stage partner or a transformation consultancy partner, I'm gonna let our customers do the talking for us.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

ITAS were there from the sort of get-go, helping us, you know, talking through what the process was going to involve, setting expectations, you know, making it clear that how much work we were gonna have to put in to make sure that the project was a success at the at the end, um, and then talking us through all our different options, looking through our current processes, making us re-evaluate what was important, which elements we wanted to um move across to the new system, how we wanted to configure our new system, and also kind of making us sit back and really think about what is the success of this project when we get to the other end, when we finish the implementation and we're in the system, what's success going to look like? And actually, you know, putting that question back to us and really making us sit down and think about what is it that we that we are looking to gain from this whole process was was really useful internally, making us really think about the key objectives and which areas to maybe prioritize over others. Um it was also really helpful sitting down and thinking about it rather than one big huge project, actually splitting it down into different phases, um, sort of smaller bike-sized chunks, which made it seem a little bit more achievable within the time. Um, and then thankfully, ITAS had been super flexible with us during this process because it all it happened to coincide our implementation with our first ever financial audit, which just took up huge amounts of our time that we didn't expect. So we did have to um slightly push back some of our go live dates, and and thankfully ITAS were accommodating and actually helped us navigate through through that process. So we'd like to say that thankfully we're out the other. Side of our first days of go live and uh yeah, loving the move to intact.