269. CFO 4.0 Revisited: Accelerating your impact as a CFO with coaching with Catherine Clark

For this CFO 4.0 Revisited episode, Hannah Munro is joined by Catherine Clark, Lead CFO Mentor at GrowCFO and Director of Cristallum Limited, for a grounded and practical conversation on the power of mentoring in modern finance leadership.

As the role of the CFO continues to evolve beyond technical expertise, the need for strong communication, self-awareness, and leadership capability has never been greater. Catherine draws on her extensive experience to explore how mentoring provides finance leaders with something often missing in their day-to-day roles, a trusted space to step back, reflect, and grow.

What is covered in this episode

• The difference between mentoring and coaching, and when each is most valuable
• The soft skills finance leaders need when stepping into more senior roles
• How to build clear, effective communication within your finance team
• Why finance leaders must understand their wider impact across the organisation

• Explore other CFO 4.0 Podcast episodes here.
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Transcript

The CFO Role Is Shifting

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly. Moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition. To win at work, drive your career forward, and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Monroe, Managing Director of iTest, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

What A CFO Mentor Actually Does

SPEAKER_03 0:49

So hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. Now, with me today is a recommended guest, actually, from one of our previous guests on the show. So Catherine Clark is with us today. She is an executive coach and she's actually got a number of strands to the coaching and mentoring work that she does. So she is a lead CFO mentor with the Grow CFO program. You might remember we had them on a few weeks back. A mentor with the ICAEW, and also obviously fundamentally director of Her Own Businesses, which I'm going to apologize in advance, Catherine, if I get the name wrong. Kristallum Limited, where she does and runs her own CFO mentoring business as well. So welcome, Catherine. Thank you for joining me on the show today. Yeah, thank you, Hannah. It's really, really good to be here. Thank you. So um so tell me, you know, tell me a little bit about your your role as CFO mentor. What does that involve?

SPEAKER_04 1:46

Yeah, so I've had a passion for mentoring for sort of many, many years. And um, so I I was sort of group CFO of a um global consultancy for almost 10 years and realized I was helping one company at that point, really enjoyed it, you know, achieved my ambition, and just really recognized that I could help multiple people and multiple businesses with the experience and the sort of wisdom I've gained over all of that time in my career. So the mentoring now is just something I love doing. And I feel incredibly lucky day in, day out to be doing it, you know, as as part of really as my full-time focus um, working either with individuals or or in group scenarios.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

So tell us a little bit about the importance of mentoring because I think everyone likes the idea of a mentor, but sometimes it can be quite hard to define the the impact of a mentor. So can you tell us about some maybe some successes that you've seen or some benefits that you feel that are underrated in having a mentor?

Why Mentoring Matters In Transitions

SPEAKER_04 2:48

Well, I I want to share up first. I I also still have my own mentor as well, and I think I think in life, if you've got that opportunity to just get that little bit better and that little bit better, I would just say take it. Um there are always people out there who have uh sort of more experience than you, they've been through similar challenges. Um they can help you, and I I know it sounds a bit cliched, but accelerate where you get to. And you can sit there and you can be successful, but I think that the crux of mentoring is actually feeling successful and really completely unlocking what you can't necessarily unlock for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Um, we talked a little bit before the show of like mentoring not being just about that exact level, but do you see as it's something that everyone at all levels in finance should have access to?

Mentor Versus Coach In Practice

SPEAKER_04 3:43

The answer is possibly. I I think it has the most impact when you're at a position of change, maybe transition into something more senior. Um, you're you're you've got a role that has a lot of responsibility. Because it's at that point that having that support to allow you to have a confidential space to just share what you're thinking, what's going on in your mind. Um, how do I how do I think this through? Can I get a different perspective from it? Um I don't know about you, but when you're coming up a career, you always feel like you need to know everything. And it and it's quite hard to admit there's some things you don't know or you want to ask someone else's advice on. So it mentoring just allows you that time and time for reflection to think, am I thinking about this the right way? Um, is there another way of looking at it? Um, could I do it in a different way? And it's just so powerful in in the in the time, that sort of one-on-one time that you can have with a mentor.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

And so, how do you see the difference between a mentor and a coach?

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Yeah, there's there's there are there is some clear difference because I think with a with a mentor, you've you've been there. So you've actually done a similar, I'm not going to say the same journey, but a similar journey to people you're working with. So, say in my case, I've been I've been a CFO, I've I've worked in a number of multinational businesses, um, sort of I've I've been on the board, and therefore I can resonate exactly with the more general challenges that people are facing, but also the opportunities that might come their way. So you you really get to um tap in to someone's true knowledge in that particular field. So whether that's in in leadership more generally, or as a finance leader or as a CFO, you're getting someone that has has been there. And you don't really need to over-explain it. It's like I I get what my clients are going through. It's just that without support, you can sit in a place um for too long sometimes where you don't feel in you don't necessarily have that confidence that you should really have at that level.

The Soft Skills Gap To CFO

SPEAKER_03 6:02

And so one of the key elements, you know, when I'm speaking to people that are looking to make that transition, particularly into that CFO role, a lot of it comes down to the soft skills side of things rather than the technical capabilities around finance. So talk to me about some of the gaps that you've seen or you feel are um, you know, maybe a bit harder to bridge in that sort of that step up from either a an FC to an FD role or FD to CFA role.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

Yeah, it there is quite a lot of difference. So what happens is you start, particularly in accountancy, you start off very technical. Um, you know, you master certain things as you go through your career. What happens is that there becomes a point where it shifts hugely, actually, between the technical and the more strategic thinking in the role. And that strategic thinking incorporates all sorts of other things, like around sort of partnering with different stakeholders, whether that's internally or externally, um, communicating in a different way, being part of really quite big decisions for the company. And you've really got to be very good at delegating for a start, to allow yourself that space to step into that new place. And it is a new place. There's um there's different dynamics, there's there's different decisions that you're involved in. It's it moves probably, I I would say sometimes, you know, maybe 70% strategic, 30% doing. And that 70% strategic is the meetings that you have with different people in the organization, whether that's internal or external, um, the the part you're playing in in moving that organization forward. Maybe there's some strategic projects which are needed to make things better, more efficient, more effective, um, drive the the target setting that that people are working towards. Um there's that side of it. The other big side is if you look up to a leader, often the ones you look up to are very calm and in control. Um, and and that's the place that you've got to be in. But to be in that place, you've got to create the time to allow that headspace. And so what happens is when people come to me, they they come to me for all sorts of different reasons. Um, but often it is around those feelings of I don't feel as confident as I as I would like to in the role. Or am I as good as other people who may be doing the role? Um often high performers are very perfectionist by nature. So, you know, you set yourself a bar or of or very high expectation and performance, um, and it brings up all sorts of self-doubt. So one of the one of the big shifts is actually in self-belief and self-confidence at that level. But not everyone is naturally holding that. That the moment you transition between roles, as you were saying, maybe FC to FD or FD to CFO or whatever combination, it's it's gonna create some doubt in your mind at that point. So there's there's confidence, which is then the basis for things like influence and and communication, um, how you show up in the boardroom, how you build certain relationships that might be new to you in that sort of higher-level role. And um I mean, I mean, communication is is without a doubt one of the most important, and and communication has different components. So, whether that's your body language, which is the biggest part of communication or the tone or what you're actually saying, if you can't, as an accountant, communicate the insight that you're finding from that data and information, you can't connect that information to the board, or I'll get your management team to understand the information. So that there's many components, but soft, yeah, there's a variety, anyway. I mean, please ask me more on this, but it's you know, ultimately when you're trying to become a sort of influential, impactful leader, it's the soft skills that become the dominant part in your success at that level.

Self-Awareness Feedback And Meeting Presence

SPEAKER_03 10:29

And what are some of the signs and sort of watch outs that you should, you know, that you should keep an eye on? What are the signs that your soft skills aren't where they need to be? You know, what are the kind of things or the you know, the reactions you get, the, you know, what are the things that you need to look out for to say, actually, maybe I do need to speak to somebody about this.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

Yeah, I I I would hope as a leader that people have a very strong self-awareness. Um, that is one of the key key traits that everyone should be very conscious of how they are and how they're showing up and how others are responding to them. So that self-awareness is is key. You've really got to be very observant of yourself and and watch for how other people are responding to it. The second component I would say is is actively seeking feedback because if you are wanting to grow and and and become that leader of the business, and it becomes, remember, a business leader, not just a finance leader at board level, then obtaining feedback is quite important. So getting feedback from others, you know, how yeah, how am I doing? Are there things I could improve? So when people come to me, often they've done the self-awareness piece and they're saying, I would like your help because I've identified that I'm not so strong on these areas, or I'd like to be stronger. There are also people who come and they've maybe had a 360-degree feedback sort of assessment, and they're working from what other people are saying. So it is worth almost taking a check-in on both and sort of seeing where you are. But I'll come back to the point that it's how you feel that's that's most critically important. So, do you feel like you're showing up with confidence or with gravitas, having the right influence? Are people, you know, you I think we all know if you're sat in a meeting and you don't feel like anyone's listening to you, then take note of it and sort of think, well, why? What's going on here? Um there's a there's a very strong connection also between your thought patterns, what you're thinking and your behaviors. A very, very clear connection. So when we look at whether we are or we are doing something or are not doing something in the soft skills area, particularly, have a look at what thoughts you're having in connection with that. You know, what beliefs that you're carrying.

Thoughts Body Language And Confidence Loops

SPEAKER_03 13:15

That's a really interesting statement. Can you give us an example of of that specifically?

SPEAKER_04 13:23

Yeah, I mean, I know this is probably the most simple example, but if your mind is saying to you, I'm not good enough, or the people in this meeting are better than me, it has an immediate impact on how you show up. And when I was saying earlier about your body language being the strongest part of communication, if our thoughts are saying to us, we're not good enough, our body language will naturally shrink to match that that belief. And then what happens is, so then you're showing up not in the most confident way, and then what what happens to our minds is we look for evidence that a belief is true. So if you're thinking I'm not good enough, or someone else is better, our minds will naturally find the evidence to support that slightly that more negative belief. Whereas if we can shift it into a positive statement, um, then then our minds will start looking for evidence of that. So we can create our own vicious cycle, or arguably our own positive cycle, depending on what we're thinking.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

That's it. And I guess the challenge is is when you're when you've had a bad experience, then you're you're then looking, like you say, for that continued bad experience in that situation. So it can grow and become worse over time. Yeah, I can understand that.

Simple Clear Communication People Understand

SPEAKER_04 14:45

And it's and it's why the statement, fake it till you make it, exists. I I don't believe in faking everyone should be their, you know, their genuine authentic selves, but that there is a degree of testing this out and you know, deciding and recognizing that the power you have is to show up in the way that you want, but you need to recognize what does that for you. So um, if you want to show up you know in a confident, happy, you know, engaging, quite relaxed way, you know, do you need to take 10 minutes before a meeting to get yourself in a place where that's true? So it you know, what what what is your energizer, let's say, in between meetings or ahead of an important meeting? Is it going and getting some fresh air for five minutes? You know, taking some deep breaths, maybe it is having a coffee, I don't know, but whatever works for you is is you have to recognize it's in your power to do that. You can't change other people. So the only thing you can do is change yourself.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

So we've talked a lot about mindset and your perception of others and the situation that you're in. What are the other key components to good communication?

SPEAKER_04 16:04

Well, uh is thinking about who the audience is. So who is who who are you communicating to? Um, fundamentally, what do they need from you? Now, I would say the basis of communication is simplicity. So let's use the words like clarity and simplicity, but it is about the simpler the better. I mean, particularly for finance, it can be quite complex by nature. So the easier you can make it for people to understand, the better. So if you're thinking about a presentation that's having, you know, maybe one graphic or a word or some kind of chart, but it's not about having slides full of words. It's it's about thinking what is what is most important for me to say? What is most important? What what message is is most important that I get across and that someone understands? So maybe it's like your top three points, you know, rather than having a whole paper behind you. It's what do I what do I really what do I want to influence here in this communication? And the thing is, if you if you keep it fairly short and sweet, then you can check in that the other party has understood what you've said. The the problem is that people will nod and and appear to understand, but everyone interprets things differently. So you and I could say the same thing, but someone would hear it differently. So you you have to create the ability to for someone else to understand what you're saying. Particularly, remember, we're talking about finance leaders, CFOs. We don't want anyone to misinterpret what's being said.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

Absolutely. And I think there's an interesting point with that, I think, about how about actually having that stage of check-in that and how would you normally approach the the making sure people understand? Would you question it back? Would you how do you recommend that people approach that?

SPEAKER_04 18:12

Yeah, I mean, you can say something like, you know, what you know, what have you understood from what I've said? Um you you say it in a certain tone that doesn't imply that they've not been listening, but you know, can we just check it? Can a bit like, you know, a bit like can we just check in that we've both understood the same thing? Because remember, in any of these important communications, you're hopefully both working to the same intention. So whether that's an organization that's trying to achieve its strategic goals or to make a decision on a particular way forward, ideally you're coming from the same place. So if you change the language back to that, which is let's just check in and make sure that we've both understood each other and and that we we do agree on this way forward, I think it's worth doing that for something very, very important. Yeah, perhaps not every single fact and figure that you put in front of you. No, no, no, not every single fact. I I think I'm trying to keep it high level. I mean, I think with mentoring, it's it's it's it's fine tuning. Yeah. Mentoring is fine tuning. So therefore, you're you're working out. If you're working in the the value-added space, the strategic space, then hopefully your any communication you're having is important. So that's why it's worth working out what someone else needs to understand.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

Yeah, and I guess there's I guess there's different pillars, isn't there, of communication. You could be doing downwards communication versus up into the CEO or the board, the board level. And I guess that the commute the way that you communicate, whilst the fundamentals are the same, it could be quite a different approach depending on who you're speaking to as well.

SPEAKER_04 20:00

Yeah. I mean, remembering that body language, I guess, is the most important. You've just got to be aligned. You know, a key component of communication is alignment, so that your what you're saying and your body language are completely in alignment to each other. So if you're naturally sort of, I don't know, sort of vibrant by personality, naturally optimistic, great. But if you're delivering, you know, a bit of a harder message, or maybe in this case the financials are not so strong, you have got to adapt your body language accordingly. I mean, I used to sort of present AGMs, and before I said a word, really, people would know if it'd been a good year or not such a good year. I had to show up in a way that was you know, in alignment with what I was presenting. So if I did smile, which is my slightly more natural persona, then they they knew everything was okay. It it sort of creates a much more relaxing environment. So, particularly when you're doing communication in your in, you know, in your words, sort of downwards, um, you know, it's about being motivational, it's about being encouraging and recognising that you know, when when you do provide that sort of energy to a group, they're gonna respond accordingly. And that's what you're really doing with communication. You're thinking, really, what's my goal here? Am I sharing information? Am I doing it to bring, you know, to give to uplift people and to sort of encourage them to do more of the same, more of the same good stuff that they're doing? Um, or am I delivering a slightly harder message that that needs a little bit more maybe structure to it?

SPEAKER_03 21:43

And I don't suppose that many people actually step back and think, do they? And actually take the time to think through the fact that about the message actually before they they start talking. You know, and I think that's one of the key conversations, the interesting things I've heard. From from you today is actually taking the time to think about what is the message I'm giving before you start to talk.

Pressure Overwhelm And Delegation

SPEAKER_04 22:08

Yeah, and and and you know, this is against a backdrop of um people feeling very overwhelmed at the moment. People are very, very busy. So if I ask many people at the moment, how are you? They say very busy. Um, they've got all sorts of um tasks that they're completing. Um it's very nice for me to say up front, you know, you should be doing more strategic, less BAU. Um, but in reality, there's a lot happening in organizations. So, however, I I I very strongly, and I share this message a lot, I think if you give yourself the time to pause and reflect and then realize that you do have this choice, how you show up, how you deliver a message, how you turn up at a meeting, then it's it's amazing what a change that makes. Because what you're doing is you're trying to step up, step up into leadership, and leadership is about so, so much more than just the doing. You you've got to release some of the um the overwhelm, that sort of feeling of I'm just too busy to think ahead, to show up in that very calm and in control manner, because that's what people are trusting in. You know, you're you're like the finance leader of an organization. They're looking up to you as the financial conscience of that organization, looking after that business for the for the longer term. To do that, you've got to be in the best place for yourself. So you've got to look after yourself and you've got to keep your own mind clear and be very conscious of the impact that you are having on others around you. Um, there's a there's a statistic that says you can have an emotional impact on others in as little as 23 seconds. 23. So the point is as a leader, you have got to be conscious all the time as to how you're coming across. That doesn't mean hiding how you are, but just being conscious of what impact your mood, your behaviour could have on others.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

And I I think that's a really interesting point. Weirdly enough, that this came up in conversation over, I think it was last week, with somebody. Um and I think that's a really interesting point, is that people or you know, we talked about self-awareness being really important for a leader, but when you're under pressure, uh a lot of the time self-awareness can can drop back because you're so focused on whatever the task is that you've got on your to-do list. And so you can be a lot. I I I do find when people are under pressure their self-awareness it becomes weaker and and they tend to they might react in a way that they don't intend or understand, and that has a detrimental effect on you know the people that they're with at the time.

SPEAKER_04 25:07

And the best, you know, the best sort of advice is to make sure that you've got a really solid number two who you can delegate effectively to a really good team. I mean, you know, having the right team, the right skills in that team, you know, the the people who almost support maybe the change that you're inspiring in that organization. You've got to have people who buy into what the organization is trying to achieve, buy into what you're trying to do as a leader. You can't do it alone. And I do work with a lot of leaders, um, particularly more in the SME space, who are trying to do too much themselves. And then it's very, very hard to step out of that and then be seen as the leader they want to be seen as. Because they're just too lost in the detail, too lost in that. So um it is very, very important to ensure you've got the right people around you to allow that to happen and not to dilute the value that you can bring by trying to do too much. I I'm seeing it quite often now. People are taking on like new responsibilities a bit too willingly. And when I say too many, like sort of in functional areas that maybe are not the area of expertise. And on the one hand, that that's great. Um, it gives you exposure to new things and and you know, maybe managing different areas, but be very, very careful that it doesn't dilute your core value and where your focus should be as a finance lead.

Underperformance Team Investment And Finance Value

SPEAKER_03 26:50

And talking about creating space there, so obviously you mentioned delegation quite a few times already during this conversation. So, what does good delegation look like? How should you structure and work within that delegation? Because that, you know, if we think about a lot, a lot of people in senior roles are perfectionists. They are I hate to use the term control freaks, but it can be the case. Um, how do you manage the obviously the the ensuring that things are delivered well whilst not taking the responsibility or accountability for literally doing everything?

SPEAKER_04 27:23

There's a few things. I think one is ensuring that either your number two or your team are on board with what you're trying to achieve. So again, I'll I'll mention the word alignment again, but everyone's got to be coming from the same place. Everyone's got to have that sort of similar energy to be trying to achieve the same thing. So that's the first thing. Um, I think secondly, it's about as a leader or as a finance leader, ensuring that maybe you've set a finance strategy. So again, you're sharing the big picture and that everyone has a part to play in in achieving that. So being very, very clear with what everyone's role is and what they're doing, and particularly why. So some things may be obvious, but not not everything is so obvious. So being extremely clear on you know exactly what everyone has to do to play their part.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

And it's it's a hard topic, but I think you've um covered the sort of the core of it. And I think that's always the challenge, isn't it? It's by making sure you have the right people in the first place to be able to delegate too well and and be able to deliver that. So it comes back to your original point, I think, about making sure you've got the right uh team around you as you board.

SPEAKER_04 28:40

I was gonna just gonna add that you you've got to deal with underperformance at the right time and ensure that other people see you dealing with that because what what you have to watch is the dynamic of a team. And if if no if not everyone is playing their part, it won't just be you that sees it, other people will see it. So you almost have a responsibility to the team to ensure that everyone is doing what they need to do.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

Yeah, absolutely. And that comes back to the um, I think I did I did a podcast way back when when we first started CFO 4.0, and it was all about building high performing teams. And like you say, one of the biggest killers of high performance is when your your weakest member though those performance issues aren't addressed, and actually getting in and going, yeah, because everyone else feels like they're shouldering the burden for that person. It creates resentment, it creates a culture of why should I? And that's that's always a challenge to address. And it's harder to fix it than it is sometimes to address it in the first place.

SPEAKER_04 29:44

Yeah. I think I think the di the difficulty at the moment is a lot of people bring this up. I do group mentoring sessions with Grow CFO, and we look at the top challenges that people have, the sort of I call them top personal challenges, but they you know they they're slightly broader than that. Um and maximising your team's performance comes up time and time again. Um, but often it's that people are carrying underperformers, possibly they need to really work out their tactics for for dealing with that. Um but possibly the other the other angle of it is that there's sometimes not enough investment in finance, and again, a lot of it's from the perception of value that that support functions more generally bring or don't bring as as people perceive it. Um so you've really got to stand up as a finance lead and and you know portray that that value adds of the function and show what people are doing because often it becomes very natural, you know, you do one thing and another thing and another thing, and it's all part of our natural work, but other people need to see sometimes what's really going on below the surface, and and and also it starts with your own self-worth. So, what do I bring as a leader, as a finance leader? What value do I bring? What what what successes have I had? So it does start with the person recognising themselves, what they bring for themselves to the organization, and then what the team brings as well. Ideally, then that supports further investment in the team to make it a very high-performing function.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

And I think that's an interesting point. So, what obviously I spend a lot of time going in and digging into people's processes, figuring out, you know, why isn't this finance team as efficient as it could be? And uh, I won't say all of the time, but in a significant number of cases, actually, some of the inefficiencies are being driven by other areas of the organization, whereby the finance leader hasn't stood up to that team and gone, this is either unsustainable or unscalable, um, and making them aware of the impact it's having, um, you know, in terms of efficiency and you know, capability within the team. And I always find that really interesting because I do feel like finance lit tries its very best to support the rest of the organization, and it doesn't always challenge as effectively as it could do.

Five Priorities For Strategic CFOs

SPEAKER_04 32:23

Yeah, I mean when you take the the if you look at an organization, if every process, every transaction, everything that anyone does in an organization ultimately leads to a financial transaction. So I personally have always had a very sort of strong role in in the the whole sort of governance, internal control process structure for a very good reason that when that's working and that foundation is in place, then things flow. And again, everyone understands their part. We talked earlier about the finance team understanding their part, but this is across the whole organization. It's like what leads to what? You know, what what someone does in one part of an organization impacts another. So, as a finance lead, you've you have got to be looking at the whole organization. You can look at it as a value chain analysis, you can look at where the value points are and and make sure that's being sort of maximized, but it is about the whole organization, not just the finance part.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

And and I think that's even more important because obviously finance, you know, again, we talked about taking on more responsibilities, tend to, you know, take on responsibility for managing the processes internally, like you say, putting in controls, assessing risk, managing that whole piece, yet they very often don't have a huge amount of say on what goes on at the beginning part of the process, which I find really interesting. So it is a whole, I mean, we could probably spend all day just talking about process design. Don't get me started on that. That's one of my favorite topics to talk about. Um, but so fundamentally, let let's let's sort of um let's do a recap on. So we we want to step into that strategic role, we want to shift our um capability to step back and really add that value in our finance leader role. What are the you know, the five things that um a every finance leader needs to make sure they're doing to create that space and create that capacity to do that?

SPEAKER_04 34:27

Well, let's let's just see if it is five, but I'll go speak if it's that many. Um I think the first thing is your own health, your well-being as a leader is number one. It I I'll I'll use the term it's your superpower, but I really it's your emotional, your mental, and your physical well-being are at the top of that list for me because you are doing a very um responsible job and and a job that ideally is looking after organization for the longer term. So you've got to look after yourself in that it never gets quieter. There is not a quiet time as a finance leader. So, you know, first and foremost, look after yourself because in that place you will actually have a much clearer head anyway. Um, so that's number one, your energy. So, number one is your energy, but uh associated with your well-being. If you can show up with that energy, then you're gonna be in the best place possible to think strategically or think more creatively, think with just different perspective. Um and and decision making is is by far at that level, you you you're probably gonna be making decisions every single day. So make sure you're in the best place to do it. So look after your mind and make sure it's in the best place to actually show up in those meetings. Um I think thirdly, well, these are not in any particular order, really, but I think having feeling confident is is critically important because that will translate into how you show up physically, and a lot of gravitas is around, in a sense, uh when I say how you show up physically, but your body language, you know, that sort of calm and in control way. Um so you've you've got to be thinking, I do feel confident. I I I love when I say love working with people who don't have that feeling yet, is because in my own career that was what made the biggest difference. So, along with looking after myself and keeping myself in that sense fit and healthy, um, actually feeling confident made the most difference. If in fact, it it made so much difference, I felt like a different person. So if you're not feeling that way, do you get the support you need to feel it? Um, because other people also respect you in that place. They don't, there isn't a lot of room at leadership level to have doubts. There isn't. So if you're joining a board, you're an equal board member from day one, you know, with an equal voice, just make sure you feel that way. And don't sort of sit there um not feeling that way. Um I think um I think communication, they're all connected, but communication is is is very, very important. Um, we talked earlier about allowing yourself the time to think about what what is coming up, how do I need to be in this particular meeting or in this presentation or in this in this engagement with someone? Um, you know, what they need from you is almost more important than what you think they need from you. That was something I I learned over my career. I thought, well, I know what they need. And when I asked them, I found it was quite a different angle on it. So so really spend the time. Um, this is maybe the fifth point, it's around relationships, um, which is do spend the time building relationships and your network and ensuring that people know you for who you are. So allow a little bit of vulnerability in there, allow a bit of personal side to come in. Because the more people know you, the more rapport there is, the more trust and understanding follows. So that that relation is it is all about relationships. And if that isn't a natural strength, then please get again get the support you need to make sure that is something that that feels a little bit more natural. Um and um because that is the the the basis, it's it's the basis for business partnerships, it's the basis for yeah, trust. Um and and really when people like you and know you, that they're more inclined to go along with what you're suggesting anyway. So again, then the then the influence part is is much more natural. So I think that sums it up. There's probably more to say, but yeah, sums it up.

Where To Find Catherine Plus Listener CTA

SPEAKER_03 39:03

And you made it to five points as well. Thank you, Catherine. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for sharing your insight and and and some real food for thought. I think for everyone, anyone that's sitting there wondering whether anyone else has ever felt unconfident or felt like they're not quite um doing doing a good job, I think there's some really great food for thought. But for any of our listeners that want to maybe get some help um or perhaps some advice from yourself, where's the best place to find you? You know, how can how can they find about more about some of the work that you do?

SPEAKER_04 39:39

Yeah, so I mean I have I have my own website, so that's um crystalline.co.uk. Um, so I'm also on LinkedIn as well. Um, I'm on the um grow CFO platform, so grow CFO is growcfo um.net. Um that that's really good actually, also if you have um if you're thinking about yourself and a team, and I run their CFO program as well and and contribute to the sessions on the future CFO program. So it and then the ICAW they have their own sort of leadership programs again, which incorporate mentoring. So I I guess I guess the answer is you can find me really quite easily. You don't have to look very far. Very far. Um, and um it's just about thinking what will work best for me or for me and my team, or or what combination of support, um, whether it's one-to-one mentoring, which I think is excellent for going a bit more in depth personally, or programs which give you that peer support or on top of that. But um, I I really do think there is there is a good combination to support people in what can be quite a lonely role at times.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

And it's great to see the the increase in these programs to support CFOs, um, or people even that are transitioning into a CFO role. It I must admit, I've seen they're starting to appear, there's more of them available, which is brilliant, I think, you know, because it, like you say, it can be quite a lonely role. Um, you know, stepping into that CFO piece. Well, thank you so much, Catherine. And to all those listening, thank you so much for listening. Um, if you if I missed a question, if there was something you wish I'd asked Catherine, then please do reach out. Tell me if there's any topics you feel like we should explore further on the show. I always love feedback. And if you particularly enjoyed this episode, please do give it a mention in a review, share, um, share us on LinkedIn or your TikTok or whatever is your social platform of choice. It's always great to get feedback on how you know how people are finding the podcast. So thank you again, Catherine, and to all of our listeners. Thank you for listening, and we will see you on the next episode of CFO Paul Poito.

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SPEAKER_00 41:50

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