Nevermind (Nirvana)

Episode 50: Nevermind (Nirvana). McCartney In Goal is the podcast that debates the great albums of pop music, using a competitive knock-out format. Today we’re discussing, Nevermind which was the second studio album by Nirvana. It was released on September 24, 1991.

Unlock the story behind Nirvana's first release on a major label and the first to feature drummer Dave Grohl with the latest spirited debate “track by track” by the McCartney In Goal team. The album includes loads of hits including “Smells Like Teen Spirit”, "Lithium", "Come As You Are" and "In Bloom".

Ever wondered how a controversial album cover and a song about a deodorant could change the landscape of music forever? Join the team for the milestone 50th episode as they dive headfirst into Nirvana's legendary "Nevermind" album. Broadcasting from sunny Argentina and somewhere in Steve's beard, Dave, Brett and Steve embark on a nostalgic yet humorous journey, sharing their personal connections to each track.

Remember those house parties where "Nevermind" was the soundtrack to your teenage rebellion? The MiG team explore the emotional highs and production quirks of "Polly", "Stay Away," "Breed," and more, contextualizing their place in the album's legacy.

What makes an album timeless? We tackle this question with a focus on the genius of Kurt Cobain, from his punk roots to mainstream success. We also share a hilarious anecdote about hidden tracks and childhood swimming lessons tied to the "Nevermind" cover art. Join us as we celebrate 50 episodes of musical exploration, heartfelt debates, and a deep appreciation for Nirvana's transformative impact on our lives and the music world. Thank you for being part of this journey; here's to the next 50 episodes!

Chapters

• 0:00 Music Album Debates
• 11:49 The Evolution of Album Impact
• 20:27 Uncovering the Dark Meaning of Polly
• 29:29 Song vs. Song Debate
• 39:09 Analyzing Nirvana's Album Dynamics
• 42:34 Nirvana's Mainstream Transition and Album Production
• 48:29 Nirvana's Album Production Evolution
• 58:48 Nirvana Album Dynamics Analysis
• 1:09:54 Debating Nirvana's Album Production & Songs
• 1:16:18 Album Track Analysis and Voting
• 1:30:17 Nirvana's "Something in the Way" Debate
• 1:36:33 Cover Art and Record Label Dynamics
• 1:51:38 Nirvana's Album Perfection Debate
• 2:00:19 Territorial Pissings Wins Episode 50

Transcript

Dave: 0:00

Hello and welcome to McCartney and Goal. This is the podcast that debates a great album of popular music using a sporting knockout format. I'm David Hughes and I'm joined by my fellow judges Brett.

Brett: 0:13

Hello, hello.

Dave: 0:14

And Steve Sumner, episode 50. Yes.

Brett: 0:19

How did we get here? How?

Steve: 0:21

I've no idea how this happened. I never dreamed such a thing was possible in christian. Oh my gosh unbelievable.

Brett: 0:28

It's episode 50 dave it is how do you feel having marshaled 50 of these?

Brett: 0:34

uh the long silence before answering says a lot listeners but we've saved up a classic tonight, haven't we for our 50th birthday. What we have per.

Brett: 0:43

We have purposely saved this up. We've talked about it for years, doing this album um, and we've saved it.

Steve: 0:48

We wanted the words. Are we doing the words?

Brett: 0:50

it's exactly that. Steve the words all the combine harvesters all the combine, yeah, that we were but we decided actually we're going to do nevermind by nirvana, because it's you know, it's pretty good in it, dave yep, it is uh.

Dave: 1:03

So tonight we're giving our uninformed, biased and unruly views on nevermind by nirvana. And now the puns bit go for it.

Brett: 1:13

Go on episode 50. Is this the last time you're gonna do the puns? Are you? Are you retiring the puns after this?

Dave: 1:17

no, no, we've, we've. Uh, I don't like the puns, but we um, don't tell the listeners that they imagine that you love them the puns have been an essential part of all 50 episodes a whole lot of pun yeah, so far um so. Brett, have you been on a plane recently?

Brett: 1:32

I have dave because I'm in. I'm in argentina, south america, oh nice that's good, that's a pun, but also you personalized it.

Dave: 1:39

I really appreciate that and on our zoom screen I can see the window behind you. You're, you're flexing that. Uh, you're recording this in bright sunshine yeah, that is a flex yeah, I am in summertime.

Steve: 1:53

Yeah, sorry about that yeah, I don't want to go unnoticed, no it doesn't?

Brett: 1:57

you've got it. When you basically in british windsor, it is horribly long and very gray and dark and cold, and if you can escape it, you should, but also you should also never, ever, ever brag about it, because people will hate you so let's try and downplay it and it's January here in the UK at the moment so.

Dave: 2:16

Steve, would you be? In bloom if it wasn't still winter in the UK. Well, as you can see, I've grown a beard.

Steve: 2:23

So I am in bloom beautiful. I am in bloom beautiful, I am blooming just for this episode nice any more puns is that it? No no, no, that's it, that's it oh okay, well, that's good.

Brett: 2:34

Two's good, two's good. We'll take two, sure, yeah, I'm just glad you didn't try and squeeze in territorial pissings because that could have gone anywhere. To be fair, he he came in real hot with on a plane. That was very good. I think he wrote that and went fuck it. I'm done for the day, done that I'm not gonna top that. I'm gonna go and have my lunch absolutely, it is um.

Dave: 2:54

This is actually the second album in our trilogy series of albums that were released on the 24th of sept 1991. The first part Was episode 47. Where we did Blood Sugar Sex Magic by the Chili Peppers. Part two is Nevermind by Nirvana, which is this episode 50.

Brett: 3:14

Nice, I mean that's a pisser for the Red Hot Chili Peppers. That's a great, great album and it's still not the best album released that day.

Dave: 3:21

Let's be honest no well, and part three will be.

Brett: 3:27

What do you think it will be? Our part three? What's? What's the choice I'll give you. What else was released was stupid enough to release an album that day, since you asked brian adams waking up the neighbors will never ever be that over mine, yours and steve's dead bodies.

Dave: 3:38

You two first van morrison hymns to the silence. I've not heard it.

Brett: 3:46

I mean, it's what 90s era Van Morrison? Is that his best era?

Dave: 3:50

well, 24th of September 1991, van Morrison.

Brett: 3:53

Well, specifically, I mean, you're probably the biggest Van Morrison fan. Is that fair to say out of three of us? Yes so is that one of his finest of his oeuvre? Are we, are we likely to do that? We've already done one Astral.

Dave: 4:05

Weeks, which is amazing. We have, yeah, we've done the best of Van Morrison, which was Astral Weeks, although there are some other fine Van Morrison albums.

Brett: 4:13

Okay, so we'd be crowbarring that one in, wouldn't we? So it's not.

Dave: 4:17

Not that one. Okay, how about Tribe Called Quest Low End Theory?

Steve: 4:21

Oh God, quest low end theory oh god you. Any excuse to name drop that album. We're never gonna do that album.

Brett: 4:28

Move on, you're obsessed okay, it's not gonna happen. He's gone. Tribal on you our third part.

Dave: 4:34

Uh will be none of those. Uh, it's actually going to be screamadelica by primal scream that we might get around to, wasn't?

Steve: 4:41

there wasn't the pixies this year, wasn't the pixies like a day before, a day after, or something?

Dave: 4:46

it was on that day.

Steve: 4:47

Yeah, you're right which is a good connection, because obviously there's a huge amount of Pixies influence on this album which we will get to.

Dave: 4:55

Trump LeMond was on 24th September 1991, as well by the Pixies and the Pixies is big we could do that.

Brett: 5:05

That's kind of more of a wheelhouse. They're a bit cool, aren't they? They're a bit cool. It gives us a bit of cred.

Steve: 5:11

We've done the Pixies, haven't we? And it was our least listened to episode ever, so let's not do that again Do little literally.

Brett: 5:17

Do little listening, yeah.

Dave: 5:20

Yes, so 1991,. What were you into? What were you listening to? Brian Adams obviously.

Brett: 5:29

Yeah, well, I was 15 at the time. So just discovering music, just discovering it, and that's the interesting thing about this album. This album comes out and you're like, wow, this is really good. But that's what you expect. It's just an album that's come out literally when you're getting into music. It just happens to be one of the greatest albums of all time. But you kind of it skews your expectations. You think are all albums going to be like this? So you probably don't appreciate it at the time. As time goes on, you kind of get into it, but it's incredible. Yeah, so at the time I would, I've been listening to, I'd have just come off. My uh had a u2 phase, a queen phase, then, bizarrely, a t-rex phase. It was in an advert, um, and so it's just coming off of all of that. And then, yeah, then getting into, like, actually getting into the wider scope of music, but this would be one of the first I've got going to. So, yeah, what were you listening to, steve?

Steve: 6:16

I think I was segwaying from straight up whatever was in the charts to beatles hendrix clapton well, you got into the Beatles earlier than me.

Brett: 6:26

Nice, you got into the 60s earlier yeah, well, not the 60s.

Steve: 6:30

No, I got into the 60s a bit, but you were always much more of a big 60s guy than I was. But yeah, the Beatles was very much the gateway drug into everything else.

Brett: 6:40

That wasn't just what was in the chart well, that's interesting because I went through bands like Nirirvana, um, and then, and latterly at the same time, really punk as well, but yeah, so, okay, okay, it's been this big kind of burst between 16 and 18, which is what is the fascinating thing about this time you, you basically between 16 and 18 is really when you get into music. And just at that point, for us, this album was released, completely skewering our expectations of what you can expect from yeah regularly released new bands.

Brett: 7:12

What were you listening to? Hughes? A lot of cure, I think. Bit of goth, weren't you brian adams? Brian adams brian adams.

Dave: 7:17

I mean we we're joking about it, but waking up, the neighbors sold a gazillion, didn't it? It was another huge selling album shame on you.

Brett: 7:25

The 90s shame on you.

Dave: 7:26

There was a really mixed bag of rock around at the time wasn't there, because, as well as never mind, there was guns and roses. Yeah, the uh red and the uh blue use your illusion.

Brett: 7:39

No, that's the beatles. For fuck's sake. You should know a bit more about music than that use your illusion.

Dave: 7:44

One and two the red and the blue albums well, the difference between them was that one had a red cover and one say what you see?

Steve: 7:52

yeah, use your illusion one and two. Yeah, use your illusion one and two, yeah.

Dave: 7:57

And so that was around at the same time. That was in the charts, really high up the charts at the same time. Um, and then you had like rem were big at the time when they're out of time.

Brett: 8:06

Yeah, shiny happy people, which was released in 91 as well. I mean, 91 was an insane year for album releases.

Dave: 8:13

It was just really and then in the uk we had a lot of uh, indie uk indie carter, the unstoppable sex machine, the wonder stuff um stone, roses, stone roses carter, the unstoppable sex machine.

Steve: 8:26

There's a reference, wow yeah, that's what.

Brett: 8:29

I was into them a lot of the time, so this was like kind of pulling me out of that, I suppose. But yeah, that's what happens when you're 16.

Steve: 8:35

Well, this album pulled a lot of people out of a lot of things, not least in america, where it killed or is is generally held to have killed an entire genre. But we can't talk about that genre because Dave, as evidenced in previous episodes, doesn't understand it. You're talking of hair metal, I am talking about hair metal, which Dave has singularly failed to grasp in any concept. I can't remember who it was he accused of being hair metal but fucking hell.

Brett: 9:01

He's just referred to the worst thing that ever happened. He's just referred to.

Steve: 9:06

Usual Ill illusion as the red and the blue album. I mean, yeah, his metal knowledge is atrocious. Yeah atrocious jeepers crepers yeah unbelievable all you need to know, dave, is that people stopped backcombing their hair and putting lipstick on, despite the fact they were heterosexual men, and started wearing plaid shirts and growing stubble. That's Just run with that no more backcombed hair.

Dave: 9:28

Unless, like me, you were into the Cure, in which case you started backcombing your hair and putting lipstick on about this time. Yes, that's a goth discussion.

Steve: 9:36

I'm just talking about the hair metalers, that's fine. Ah, ok, I never understood that If you were listening to Warrant and Poison. You stopped when this happened.

Dave: 9:46

I definitely wasn't listening to them. Segwaying. A question that we've debated before is how easy is it to tell whether a record is going to be a classic before it has had contact with the public? And I raise that because Geffen, who were the record company, sent out 46,000 copies to American record stores. Yeah.

Brett: 10:13

And they sent 35,000 copies to the UK, but only because Bleach had been relatively successful and they were darlings of the NME and the British music press, which a lot of bands used Britain to break, especially art rock. So that initial pressing of what? And the British Music Press, which a lot of bands used Britain to break especially Art Rock.

Dave: 10:25

So is that initial pressing of what like just under 100,000 records?

Steve: 10:30

Yeah.

Dave: 10:31

Geffen didn't have the highest hopes for this album.

Brett: 10:34

Yeah they hoped in the best wildest dreams it would do about 250,000. I thought, ah, could we do that? That'd be amazing. Um, and yeah, I mean, it's just yet another example of not being able to predict, or just how hard it is to predict, even though you can. It is an art, it is not a science. You know you, you can't predict it.

Steve: 10:53

Um, and humans are terrible at predicting anything, let alone something as finite as this but sometimes it's very little to do with what's good, bad or indifferent, it's about the times. You know, it's like's like the way I always come back to, the way that Steve Martin and Eddie Murphy were funny. They were funny, they were funny, and then the 80s ended and they weren't funny and they were saying the same things and making the same jokes. It was just the times had changed. Something had shifted in the international consciousness that meant that those jokes weren't landing in the same way. You know something about the vibe had changed and the films changed, everything changed.

Brett: 11:25

And you know, nirvana, there's a lot of you mean Father of the Bride 2 isn't one of your favourite films of all time, it's everyone's favourite film.

Steve: 11:33

But I mean, obviously there were going to be, like you know, anomalies along the way, but in general it was a decline. The Nutty Professor isn't top five for you.

Dave: 11:48

It's not inching out, godfather, I mean, it's strong. It's a strong entry. If you were trying to describe the impact of this album to generation z, how would you describe the impact of gen z?

Brett: 11:57

yeah, um, well, it's so interesting. It's so hard to to describe an impact of an album, because I was thinking today, like that period between 16 and 18 is where we would have gestated a lot of music and we'd have had to literally like, yeah, I got into nirvana, but at the same time it was the beatles were new to me, they were like a new band to me. The cure uh, stacks records was new to me. All of it was new. But the fortunate thing for us was we had to physically acquire copies of the albums to listen to them.

Brett: 12:27

Nowadays, you could literally decide to, you know, define yourself as getting into music. You could finish school in the summer and by the end of that summer holiday you could have listened to everything, everything. And that is why music has shifted from the album, which is a long-form thing, to kind of to putting songs onto playlists and why I think you were telling me, dave, your, your daughters, now just listen to songs. They don't really listen to albums or don't even sometimes know who the artist is, they just know the song. So, no, bohemian rhapsody is a great song, but they won't know really that much about queen I.

Steve: 12:58

I get that a lot with students. It's like it's such a I think we talked about this a little bit before. It's like I'll ask them what they're listening to and it's like they were listening to some random. It'll be like highway to hell and I'm like, oh wow, you're into acdc. And they're like, who acdc? And I'm like, okay, so you've kind of blown me away by listening to something I wasn't expecting you to. But then there's this total disconnect between the thing you're listening to and you having any further knowledge of it.

Steve: 13:22

It's really odd, it's a very different way of consuming music we're totally different from us.

Brett: 13:29

Like we, we would have to invest literally, physically, and usually financially, in the album, and once you've done that, you've made an investment.

Brett: 13:35

You want to put your time you're gonna listen to the damn thing we've actually swung all the way back from the original thing in in the 60s was was not the album, it was the singles and the live tour. That's how artists made money. Then from mid-60s onwards it swung all the way back to the album being thing, not this justice thing you just hang your credibility on. And now it's swung back. People release an album not for the money, for the. It's for the cred, for the, for the excuse to do a tour, to release some singles. It's mad.

Steve: 14:01

It's got, it has some, but yeah, it's very different, very different. But to answer your initial question about its impact, dave, I'd say I mean I just remember going, you know, going to parties at that point when you were very, very first going to parties and it was like you know, and I remember, you know alcohol for the first time and sort of darkness. You know, hanging out with people at someone's house in the dark and people smoking cigarettes and all this stuff. The only musical thing that I recall is this album In my head. If I close my eyes and imagine that I'm at one of those parties, all they are playing is Nevermind At some point. That's what happened and I don't remember anything else apart from okay, go on.

Dave: 14:51

What were you going to say? Because there's one other that I remember from that period, one other record that was put on, say the wonder stuff, for fuck's sake.

Brett: 14:58

No, go on what was it.

Dave: 14:59

I wish it was. I was gonna say rage against the machine is the other one I remember.

Steve: 15:03

Yes, yes, it's, I listened to that a lot, but I didn't hear it at parties. At parties, it was never mind, never mind or never mind. That's what it was. It was just endlessly, endlessly played, and and so I associate it very, very heavily with a time and a feeling and and just parties, house parties um, because it was suddenly, it was everywhere.

Dave: 15:22

Yeah, no, that's a good way to connect it to the impact that it had, because that's where, like you say, that's where we heard it. You put on an album at a house party and it was played all the way through, and it was this one.

Brett: 15:35

That's what you would do. I mean, it just does not happen now, but I'm sure people of course people still listen to albums. We have people who you know listen to albums.

Brett: 15:50

We have people who you know listen to this podcast, who are gen z and have tweeted us. So, um, you know, shout out to james from huddersfield, but I mean, basically he has a tweet. I said, am I your only gen z listen? I said I don't know, james, I hope you're not, but you might just be, because I just don't know how old does that make? Him.

Dave: 16:00

I don't know dave's on the on the job under 35 gen z would what very end of the 90s to into the 2000s? The first 10, 15 years of the 2000s maybe?

Brett: 16:12

So listen, tweet us if you do, if you are a Gen Z and listen to the podcast and you listen to albums in general, because yeah, well, and if you like this one, yeah, which I? Imagine they will do If you're.

Dave: 16:23

Gen Z and you like this album, if you've connected with this album, yeah, I'm sure they have.

Brett: 16:28

I mean, it's just got so much cut through, hasn't it? It's incredible what sustain it must have had over the years. I mean, this is the easiest one to listen to because it's all bangers, it's all thriller, no filler.

Dave: 16:40

Well, let's get into that. Then let's start listening to these, that's my claim the first two songs I'm going to play you the opening round, are in bloom versus poly guitar solo. Send the kids for food.

Nirvana: 17:24

When the change is moot, stinks here again Rip the dark from the ground. Hey, the one who likes All our pretty songs.

Nirvana: 17:58

We'll be right back. I think I should get off her first. I think she wants some water To put out the blowtorch. Here's a knee, have a seat. Let me clip Dirty wings. Let me take a ride, cut yourself. Want. Want some help? Please myself. Got some rope. Haven't told promise you haven't true. Let me take a ride, cut yourself. Want some help, man, please myself.

Brett: 18:53

In Bloom, track two on the album, and Polly is track six, side A Gen Z listeners. So that means that's where you had to get up and turn it over so they put kind of two ballady ones at the end of end of both sides, like so they say beef, so I mean, ah, they're both. I'm gonna be boring you're gonna have to they're both great.

Brett: 19:15

Yeah, they're both very different. Yeah, they are. But in bloom's this massive rocker with just this huge drum sound and on it it just smashes in. I mean, if if you haven't been woken up out of your senses from the first track on this album, then In Bloom has just totally confirmed you're listening to something of spectacular genius. It's incredible, I mean. I love In Bloom. Polly's a really interesting track as well.

Dave: 19:37

But, yeah, the drum sound on In Bloom Well.

Nirvana: 19:40

I go. What are?

Dave: 19:40

you going to vote for.

Brett: 19:41

Well, let's go straight to the vote then. Yeah, I mean I'm going to vote for In Bloom because it's just a massive tune. I mean it was a single, wasn't it? It was the second single or third single of the album. It's got that cool video where they're kind of dressed up as if they're in the 1960s. They're in kind of jackets and ties and they've got their hair slicked down.

Dave: 19:59

Yeah, it's brilliant, I love it In Bloom, brett, you're going for In Bloom, steve. How about you?

Brett: 20:06

Yes, I'm going for In Bloom as well. Oh, there's a tension gone.

Dave: 20:09

Lovely Dave. What are you going for? Well, actually I'm going for In Bloom as well, so it's a 3-0.

Steve: 20:16

But Polly's got all let's talk about.

Dave: 20:18

Polly, then I guess, yeah, let's talk. I know that there's a very dark background story which one of you can tell. I know that this is playing a character. I know that Kurt is playing a character singing as a character when he does this song that's unusual for you, dave yeah, I recognize that in this song, because you can't help, can you? It's so dark. But I really struggle to listen to it, knowing that it's a true story.

Brett: 20:44

I didn't know that until doing the research for this album, what it was based on. I just thought it was. You know, his lyrics are quite opaque and we can get into that later and I know steve will probably have some, I will.

Steve: 20:54

But I just want to say that actually these two, I would say, are the two least opaque lyrics, lyrical songs, on the whole album. These two are pretty much the only two that have something specific to say. Everything else is very, very broken images and just sort of ideas that sound interesting, rather than this is what this song is about.

Brett: 21:24

A coherent idea and you can really plot through what it's about from start to end and it stands up to kind of rigour. Well, I mean to be fair to Kurt Cobain, he probably didn't realise that you know this album was going to be so effing huge and didn't realise he needed to put so much effort into making everything tie up contextually with his lyrics.

Dave: 21:43

But yeah, what is the?

Brett: 21:44

story of Polly. The story of Polly is based on a newspaper article that he read in which a girl was abducted and raped by, you know, obviously a complete psychopath, and that she managed to get away. I think she had to kind of pretend to like him in a way to let his guard down, and she managed to escape with her life. So it was based on the article that he read and he definitely defined himself as a feminist and was obviously horrified by the article, and I think she was abducted after a gig actually. So it would have hit home even more to him. But the weird thing about it is he takes the perspective of the assailant in this song, so the song is from his perspective.

Steve: 22:33

Steve, it's interesting that the acoustic sounds on this album are really interesting because he quite consciously and we'll get to the overproduction of this album later, but he quite consciously chose slightly shitty little guitar and you, you know, obviously, butch vig, the producer, who we'll get to later, has still managed to make it sound smooth as fuck.

Brett: 22:54

Um, but it is a, you can hear, it's a cheap, nasty acoustic guitar which suits the content of the song you know, it wouldn't if it was a better guitar, one would work yeah, I think this might have been oh god, I would have to check this day but I think this was taken from the original recordings they did before they actually went in proper to do the album and it might have the original drummer on it, chad channing, rather than dave grow. It might be his only appearance on the album which is a a great segue.

Dave: 23:25

No, my only, just before we talk about that. My only problem with this is that it pushes my boundaries of comfort, in that I can't watch horror films and I would struggle with a book that was too graphic, and I think there's nothing wrong with? His choosing this as a subject matter and the way that he does it explores it, but it just makes my skin crawl past the point, which is comfortable.

Brett: 23:56

Well, I've listened to it for years, dave, and not realised what it was about. And it was like you know, even you know it's an easier song to sing as well on the acoustic side. But, yeah, knowing what it's about, you know, even you know it's an easier song to sing as well on the acoustic side. But, yeah, knowing what it's about, I mean because the lyrics are really, again, they're pretty opaque, not so much for his standards, but they're still. You know, you wouldn't know. Just if he gave you that on a piece of paper would you know what it was about.

Brett: 24:20

If you read the lyrics, well, when you read the story, you know, yeah, once you know the story, but just from literally reading the lyrics, you wouldn't necessarily have a clear idea of the story. Um, so, yeah, but once I've now I've realized that just in the last couple week, a couple of weeks doing it, it's like, wow, it does change it a lot. I completely reassessed the song, knowing it's a subject, where it is, it's, it's very, it's very bruising, and you know, yeah, it's um, it does change it.

Brett: 24:45

I get that, so I understand.

Dave: 24:46

I understand both sides so you mentioned dave grohl. So right before this album was recorded, uh, dave grohl joined the band and replaced pete best on drums.

Steve: 24:57

He replaced the sixth piece, pete, best in a row, to be honest with you yet, yes, this poor drummer that that ends up being. They end up being both spinal tap and the beatles, because a you get the beatles peak. Best situation with you know I was. I was on the drum seat and then I left and then they became massive.

Dave: 25:18

But it's equally spinal tap because it was literally the sixth guy yeah, it's like what the hell's going on here so that this drummer couldn't that was playing on polly is um. His name is chad channing and I think there's just a lone symbol crash at the end of the verses and that's. That's um, as you say brett, taken from an earlier uh session and that's his only appearance, chad channing's only appearance on Nevermind, and I think he's uncredited.

Steve: 25:44

But what a cymbal crash, though. That is the cymbal crash to end all cymbal crashes.

Brett: 25:50

That's been sampled so many times.

Steve: 25:54

It's almost no better cymbal crash. I can think of.

Dave: 25:58

So when you hear that, that is Chad Channing, but that's his only appearance on Nevermind, he was replaced by Dave Grohl somebody called Dave Grohl call up Dave Grohl.

Brett: 26:09

Call up the beast. Dave Grohl was in a band called Scream and someone I think in the Melvins the Melvins are a big band in Seattle the punk scene that were highly influential on Kurt Cobain and Chris Novelessic. How do I pronounce that? Is that right? Nova Selich or Nova Selich? I've heard both on Kurt Cobain and Chris Novoselic how do I? Pronounce it is that right? Novoselic, novoselic or Novoselic.

Steve: 26:28

I've heard both.

Brett: 26:28

I've been worrying about that all day, how to pronounce it and I fell at the first. I don't know Novoselic, so they're a big band and I think their bassist recommended Dave Grohl. So they're like, okay, yeah, we've had loads of drum, but it's amazing so many bands like that happens, like the Beatles. They don't become the Beatles until Ringo Starr sits in that seat. The Clash don't well, it's slightly more arguable don't really become the Clash until Topper Hiddens sits in the seat. You know, it's so important. The right drummer is so important, and it doesn't mean the best drummer, it doesn't mean the jazziest drummer, it just our people too, our drummers, our people too yeah, I know some kids to our rest will disagree with that, but yes, so the next, the next round is on a plane versus lounge act.

Nirvana: 27:15

I'm on a plane, you know it's wrong. What should I do? I'm on a plane, I can't complain. I'm on a plane.

Dave: 28:45

Soon I'm coming to security.

Brett: 28:45

I can't let you slow me, we'll be right back. You see, makes me feel now well, lounge act is is um.

Steve: 28:48

it's according to steve that's a secret track that's never been on, nevermind before. Why is that, do you want to tell us? Well, because I admitted before. Okay, so this has only happened once before on the podcast, and not as extremely as this. When we were doing Led Zeppelin 4, I realised that I had never listened to Four Sticks all the way through because clearly I'd always got to the introduction and decided I hadn't didn't like it and must have skipped it. So when I had to listen to the whole thing of the podcast, I was like bloody hell, I've never heard this. Even worse, with lounge act.

Brett: 29:15

I am pretty sure I've never heard this song in my whole life which must have that rare japanese import that didn't have lounge act on it, you were at parties, steve, they played this all the time I know they did. He was always he was always, but by this point he'd already started hooking up with someone, so he was off yeah, I was usually off with the girl by now.

Steve: 29:36

You heard the songs that came up.

Dave: 29:37

So this was lounge acts, track nine. But you heard on a plane which was track 11, so that came afterwards on a plane, track 11, something in the way dave, they didn't play the whole album it was a quick worker when he hooked up with the girl that's

Brett: 29:52

enough now, steve. So he's back for. He's back for stay away.

Steve: 29:54

Ironically, I think they just made a compilation tape and left it off right, fair dues.

Brett: 30:03

So anyway, you're fresh to lounge acts. That's interesting because this is another thing to talk about. This, this album is the whole album has um, danger of um, wonderwall syndrome, trademark mccartney and gold podcast, um, in which we this you define, that song is so overplayed that it loses all kind of bearings and impact. But I don't think it does. But I think you know it's just, it's an interesting point you could make because it's so played, we're so aware of it, we're so aware of every song ingrained in us.

Steve: 30:32

But yeah, I mean so. Lounge Act is interesting for you, steve, because it comes at you fresh, you are fresh, so how do you feel?

Dave: 30:39

Giovanna yeah, I'm released, isn't it? How did you find?

Steve: 30:43

it, steve. Every time I listened to it, I went this is good, this is good. And then I couldn't retain a second of it. Even now, I cannot retain a single thing about it, not a thing. It will not stick in my mind. Whatever I do, I cannot get it to stay, and I don't know why it's not a bad track. Every time this is good. Nothing, nothing about it has stayed in my mind, not a thing okay, yeah, I mean I do like it.

Brett: 31:11

It's got a. He's got on this song only a tight, a tiny like country twang to it. It's slightly country tighter, like three percent, but it's just that more than any other song. And then it goes up a gear into his scream like this incredible vocal range he does go up an octave, which is cool that is true.

Steve: 31:30

I love that. It's a classic McCartney thing and there's only two ways you can go up an octave. It is a trope in a way it's very overdone, but it's very effective if you can sing verse one in your head voice like this, and then go in your head, voice like this and go, you know, up to you can go up an octave and do exactly the same tune, but an octave up for verse two or whatever it's.

Steve: 31:57

It's good, but so the only two ways to do it are either be paul mccartney, which means that you've got such an incredible range, certainly in the 70s, when his range was at its absolute best, um, when you know you can do it in most keys or you have to pick a key where you know that the limits of your voice are within that key um. So I don't know which is true of of kurt cabane, but yes, he does very effectively go up an octave in this song.

Brett: 32:24

But it's not just like. I did manage to remember that I think he's an amazing, I think he's got an amazing voice. I mean we'll get into your opinions on that and it's this and it's largely one of the main reasons there are a lot, obviously because they're an incredibly popular band, but it's one of the main reasons why they've sustained their popularity for as long as they have. But when he goes up that gear, it's not just like hitting it at an octave higher, which is hard to do. It is actually very hard to sing. You know an octave higher because you're right steve, because sometimes the notes will lead you out of your range if you're written in that way.

Brett: 32:57

But the intensity when she sings it halfway through is incredible. So it goes from like a kind of slight country twang, which is really nice, to that like it's just absolute metal. Holler, like this is heavy metal, like screamer, it's brilliant. And to have both. It's not like he's doing an impression of a country singer or that twang, it's just. It's a really nice vocal he puts on at the start of the song. It's got an incredible tone.

Brett: 33:21

But it's against.

Dave: 33:22

Well, it's against on a plane and I suspect that Thank you.

Brett: 33:26

I had forgotten, I suspect that both of you are.

Dave: 33:31

Well, I'll ask you what are you voting for? Well, I know what he's voting for.

Steve: 33:35

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear what I'm voting for.

Steve: 33:37

I mean I can't vote for the one I can't remember, can I?

Steve: 33:39

I'm voting for the one that I literally retain nothing about. I'm voting for the one that I literally return nothing about that makes all the sense yeah, on a plane it is Of course 3-0.

Dave: 33:49

On a plane goes through.

Steve: 33:50

Yeah, lovely.

Dave: 33:51

Right, so on to the next pairing which I'm going to play you, which is Stay Away versus Breed, Outro Music. Take a smile.

Nirvana: 34:08

About your shit, about your style, about your life, about your life. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't Get a hold of you. Oh my, oh my, oh my, oh my, oh my. Don't have a mind, you're way, way, way way way, way, way out of your home.

Brett: 35:10

We'll be right back. Wow, both incredible songs. I mean Breathe the production, the amazing sound on the drums is just excellent. And then the rhythm section, that fuzz bass, it's just incredible. It's just so sub-bass Against Stay Away, which is an absolute belter as well. I mean that's kind of not Nirvana by numbers, but it's almost like they can just churn out another absolute banger and just put it on. I think every song on this album is fantastic. As I said, for me there's no filler here at all. It's why it's one of the most it's consistently in greatest albums of all time top tens, because it's just, it's just so damn deep and consistent. Um, but it's extraordinary. If any of these songs turned up on a playlist, they'd probably actually pop out more than they do within the structure of this album because they're up against such stiff competition from each I was going to make that point.

Dave: 36:02

I agree with you totally, brett, that if many other bands had written stay away, then it would be the one of the standout tracks on standout songs on their album and it might even be the lead single. But instead on this album it's buried down at track 10. Just because of the quantity and the quality of yeah, of the songs just on this album yeah, and it and, great though it is, it is no Breed which is phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal.

Brett: 36:30

I mean, I'm voting for Breed.

Steve: 36:32

I could flip. I could flip a coin on these two, to be honest. They are both.

Brett: 36:37

In a good way or a not that interested way.

Steve: 36:40

No, no, no in a good way, In a good way.

Dave: 36:43

They're both good I think I'm very clear on this, so shall I go.

Brett: 36:48

Because I'm going to go the other way. I'm going to go Stay Away, nice, I can't object.

Dave: 36:53

And then I'll leave you, Steve to flip a coin. To Steve, Flip that coin.

Steve: 36:58

No, I think this is a very, very successful album, but a very big punk failure, and I think that uh breed comes closer to the spirit of the punk album that could have been in there. Um, so, so I'm gonna go breed, I think breed goes through two, one way has, has, has done exactly that what what bread? Wow okay oh, stay away. Has done exactly that stayed, he has. He's stayed away, stayed away. Yeah, sorry, a bit opaque.

Brett: 37:26

I need to hold up a little sign saying this is a joke. Next time, don't I?

Dave: 37:30

The next pairing is Drain you against Territorial Pissings which are back to back on the album. Territorial Pissings is track seven and Drain you is track 8. When I'm there, gotta find a way Better way.

Nirvana: 38:05

Better way. Never turn away, I don't care what you think, unless it is about me. It is now my duty To completely drain you. I travel through to blend up in your affection. It's only me and you Passing back and forth In a heart-passing kiss, from out of your sight, in our passionate cheers. From now on, I'll be all the time.

Steve: 38:49

Like you, easy, easy. Go on, steve. I mean I love Draney, but Territorial Pistons is probably my favourite thing on the record.

Brett: 38:59

Well done, well done. Well done. Well done.

Steve: 39:03

Territorial Pistons is amazing.

Brett: 39:05

Oh, it's fucking unbelievable. I love, I love, love, love it, I love. Drain you. It's an amazing pop song, um written about his ex-girlfriend, toby vale, who was in bikini, kills um a big influence on him. I think he was really smitten and then she broke up with him. So a lot of the songs on this album are kind of heartbreak songs about her I think uh land jacked was as well about her actually.

Brett: 39:27

Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, I think. Actually Side B, the majority of them are about her in some way or another. That's what I've read, but Territorial Pissings. That's what I'm going to say, dave.

Dave: 39:42

I'll talk to you more about it in the next round. Well, I would have voted for Drain you.

Brett: 39:48

Yeah, I mean, it's a brilliant song I mean people will now be screaming at their audio device.

Steve: 39:55

Also, drain, you is the most Nirvana chord progression ever. It's so Nirvana, that chord progression, I love it. It's great. Drain, you's great, but Territorial Pissing's oh, nirvana, that chord progression, I love it. It's great. Dwayne's great, but territorial pissing's oh man. We'll talk about that later. Yes, baby.

Brett: 40:07

Yeah, I've got here an old Nirvana songbook and you're right, the chords are A, c-sharp, major, f-sharp, major, b-5, a. I mean that is, which makes no sense at all.

Steve: 40:25

I was watching that documentary where they talked to his guitar teacher and basically the guitar, the guitar teacher sort of says, look, he came to me for some guitar lessons and he clearly he got to that point where he knew you know how to finger, like the basic major and the basic minor and the basic power chords and just at the point when he would have learned, like some music theory.

Steve: 40:42

He's like, oh, screw this, and he bowed out. So so his guitar teacher's like, oh, screw this and he bowed out. So so his guitar teacher's going yeah, I think the reason he succeeded is because his total lack of music theory meant that he wasn't.

Steve: 40:52

Those chords he put together just made no sense at all none at all and that that's such a thing in in in the history of rock music where if you know too much music theory, uh, unless you're in a prog band where it's kind of essential that it can just get in your way you need to know just the right amount and then be working just beyond your ability. So I think if he'd stayed for lesson seven, quit after lesson six, we'd have a different album. Because he'd be like C D. A minor. G C, d A minor. Oh, it's got a lovely tune.

Brett: 41:28

I can't put another major chord, I can't put four major chords and it must have a minor, there must be the relative minor.

Steve: 41:32

Ideally, that's the four. Chord progression, isn't it? And a lot of music.

Brett: 41:35

Now is the four chord progression, which is the relative minor, and the three majors. Of course, we all know that, don't we?

Steve: 41:40

gang. We all know that don't we game.

Brett: 41:41

Yeah, we all know, absolutely we all know that they all four corporations um, the the one, the one, the four, the five so territorial pissings goes through.

Dave: 41:50

Oh, it goes through, it goes through with a salute and I'll see you in the quarters.

Brett: 41:55

Yes, it does, yeah steve, yeah, yeah, for sure, I love it. Here's a question let me ask you a question about, uh, about this album.

Dave: 42:02

So, after you get territorial, pissingsial Pissings, which is a punk track, it's one of the big punk tracks on the album you get back Hang on sorry and we'll talk about it later, but with one of the greatest punk moves on any song ever, which we'll come back to.

Steve: 42:21

Okay, oh nice.

Dave: 42:23

So after you get Territor, get territorial pissings on this album, you get straight back. The next song is drain you. You get straight back to well-crafted rock melodies with lovely harmonies. And here's my question it's almost like nirvana wanted to go mainstream, that they were prepared to craft an album that was accessible enough.

Steve: 42:42

It's every time they threw in a punk track.

Dave: 42:44

And, and I'll give you another example uh, you've got breed, and then you go straight, which is track four, which is punk rock, and then you go straight to lithium, which is like massive single, well-crafted rock like you're the anr man you're going.

Brett: 42:59

Yeah, that's a single. As soon as you hear it within, before it's finished, do you think, nirvana?

Dave: 43:03

were were aware uh wanted. Do you think nirvana wanted to go mainstream?

Brett: 43:10

yes, well, no, I don't. Here's, there's a legend and there's then there's a nuance. So the legend is he hated being famous and and didn't want. He just wanted to be cool, didn't want to be famous, couldn't, didn't want to sell out is from the seattle grunge scene, which is an incredible scene. I recommend the documentary Hype if you want to learn more about that whole scene and what an incredible hotbed of bands and acts of music it was. But the legend is no, they didn't want to sell out. They're a punk band, they're super cool. But the nuance is they wanted to get off of sub-pop records which they were on because they felt they weren't promoting the album correctly. So they wanted to be successful. They wanted to be about as big the. The idea is they wanted to be about as big as the pixies. They wanted to be really successful that's the.

Steve: 43:52

That's the thing. It's not a binary choice. I think you know it's like you want to be successful enough to make records and for people to hear your music, uh, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily wanted to be this world-conquering.

Brett: 44:10

MTV-strandling behemoth.

Steve: 44:15

And so I think it's fair to say Kurt Cobain wanted to be a rock dude making albums, but I think what he got was so far past that that it shocked him profoundly.

Dave: 44:21

So what you're saying is that he overdid it. It's.

Steve: 44:29

Butch this album's fault.

Dave: 44:31

That's what kirk cabane would say if he was here.

Steve: 44:33

It's but it's what he did say in interviews later. He said he called it a candy ass album because it was so overproduced and, and I agree with him, it's one of the most overproduced albums of all fucking time.

Steve: 44:45

Do you think it's overproduced? I mean, it's produced Shockingly so. Everything is so smooth on this album. There are times where there are literally times where you can listen to a song and he's going and it still sounds nice on the radio Because it's been mixed in such a smooth manner that everything, even when they're playing out of tune, screaming, uh, flailing around, making just noise, playing like three or four guitar solos on this album, all of which are atonal nonsense, one of which is just like scraping the strings brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Steve: 45:28

But all of it sounds radio friendly because butch figg produced the fucking life out of it. And and it's like when you listen to that pearl jam, uh, redux of 10, where they've taken all of the uh, that lovely version that we talked about on that episode, where they've taken all of the reverb off it, so it sounds like a contemporary rock album. If they released a version of this with all of the smoothiosity taken off it and it was like a raw version, that would be mad. I'd love to listen to that and I'm not saying it ruins it for me, but it's a very, very specific flavour and Butch Vig is as responsible for it as Nirvana are.

Brett: 46:06

But music has gone that way since the 90s. As technology has improved now, like if you produce an album now, like the vocals, pretty much on any genre, will be auto-tuned not auto-tuned, but they'll be tuned by hand to fuck. So every tiny wobble or indiscretion or uh you know bit where the singer goes out of wave, is slightly out of tune, which the human voice does it would just be poked back into tune. Everything will will be tracked up triple quadruple tracked. Every guitar will be triple tracked. Everything is smooth to make as smooth a process as possible, which is kind of great for our ears but also kind of weird that we're removing. We're kind of moving further and further away from the humanity of music, which is kind of an ironic thing yeah I mean it, but it it's like when he would do the tracks he don't.

Steve: 46:47

You can hear that when, when cabane sang his vocals, you could, you can. All of his vocals are double tracked and you can hear that all of his vocals are double tracked, which is just to say that he sang them twice and he objected every time and every time butch figure, go go and sing your vocal a second time. You'd be like, oh, it's gonna make it too smooth and too nice and whatever and every time butch vigger go.

Steve: 47:08

It's what john lennon used to do and that's how he hooked him in, and lennon was a massive fan.

Brett: 47:15

Cabane was a massive lennon fan and they always managed to hook him in. Which but context they've drawn some context on the recording of the album and where they how they got to this point yeah recording this album.

Brett: 47:24

So they recorded bleach for 600 bucks um, I think it was 89 or 90, I can't remember um, and that was done by jack and dino, um seattle kind of legend, um, I think they even actually asked someone who played guitar with them for a while to stump up the money for it, which he did, um, and that was that did well, that sold about000 copies. And then they go into the studio again with Butch Vig to demo out the next album and those songs sound pretty good. They're just demos and they shop those demos around to get a bigger label and they finally get David Geffen's label involved and they sign them on a major deal and they give them about a couple hundred grand as an advance and a lot of that advance goes into the recording of this album. And they choose again Butch Vig. Even though Geffen didn't want Butch Vig, the band did because they were comfortable with him.

Brett: 48:16

So then we get to this point, and now, at this point, they've also got rid of their previous drummer, chad Channing, and they've got Dave Grohl involved. So that's how you get from their first album, which is Bleach, which is kind of like a college classic, college rock album. It sounds a bit gnarly and it's got a lot more gnarly to it. It's got a lot more husker do a lot more pixies to it than this. This is yeah. Steve said this is like a massive upgrade in production. It's much, much more of a smooth listen and I think some of the songs were actually in. In fairness, butch vick may argue his case in saying well, I didn't really mix, it was mixed afterwards.

Steve: 48:54

The band wanted it mixed by somebody else.

Brett: 48:55

That's very true they run out of time a bit and they got it mixed again and he smoothed it. I think it was the, I can't remember. It was the slayers mix.

Steve: 49:02

The guy did it was a guy. Yeah, it was the guy who did slay, it wasn't. I can't remember which Slayer album it was, but, yes, none of them liked the mix, including Butch Vig. And then they got Slayer's guy and everyone was like yes, it's great. So yes, he is also to blame or take credit, depending on your perspective.

Brett: 49:17

I would imagine, yeah, the 30 million plus album sales. He's going to take credit for that or at some stage someone is going to want to and anyway. So that's where you get to, that's where you get to butch vick producing this album. And, as steve said, yeah, he had to really coerce cabane to do double tracks, which is a pretty standard recording technique, but again you got that dichotomy always through with cabane, which I'm saying, which is in between the legend and the nuance. He he kind of didn't want to because he thought it was selling out and not punk and cool, but then he did it and it sounded amazing. So you've got that that pull in him all the time. It's not like an outward force, it's something within him. He wants to be in a successful band but unfortunately obviously can't control the trajectory of that when it happens, and it's incredible and he does, and he does, they, they do react against it within Utero.

Steve: 50:10

I mean, in Utero it's Steve Albini whose famous production technique is okay, everybody turn the musical instruments on play.

Brett: 50:19

I'm pressing record now it's a bit like this podcast. Really, it's very much like this he's like the ultimate under producer.

Steve: 50:27

he's like famous for wildly undercer. He's famous for wildly underproducing everything, and so that's why Neutro sounds like a child has produced it, Because that's what they wanted after Nevermind.

Brett: 50:42

Yeah, they were really trying to slam the brakes on.

Steve: 50:45

Yeah, because it is one of the most famously overproduced albums of all time.

Dave: 50:49

Okay, so let's get to the final pairing in the first round, which is the final two tracks on this album. So Something in the Way, track 12, against Endless Nameless, which was a hidden track.

Steve: 51:03

You're not putting Endless Nameless in here. Why did I not get this fucking memo?

Dave: 51:08

you absolute knob if you didn't read the memo.

Steve: 51:12

Well, I didn't read it. Do you expect me to read?

Brett: 51:16

all the memos you send. I'll just bury you in memos, steve that's my tactic from now on that is a very good tactic. Something in the way, something in the way yeah.

Nirvana: 52:00

I'm not a lamb, I'm dying lamb, I am.

Steve: 52:06

I am, I am, I am, I am okay. Well, just to make the point, I was previously making endless nameless hidden track seven and a half years of loud nonsense that they make up on the spot and it still sounds radio friendly because of butch fucking Vig. It's like, oh, what you know? It's like I mean, it's just noise, and still you could put it on your mum and be like, oh, it's got a good beat to it?

Dave: 52:37

was it played at parties? No, it wasn't. I'd never remember this. No, it's a pretty hard listen. Was there a gap on the CD?

Brett: 52:44

my wife has got a great story about it yes, massive it was like minutes many, many minutes so my wife, basically, would used to go to a local bar and it had a jukebox and you'd put on, you could choose your tracks and they would always.

Brett: 53:00

Her and her friends would always choose this one because it was preceded by half an hour of silence, everyone going up to the jukebox smacking, it wondering why it's broken and then suddenly, half an hour later, silence, everyone going up to jukebox, smacking it, wondering why it's broken, and then suddenly, half an hour later, endless, nameless would come on with their treat of waiting half an hour music. Outrageous, it wasn't it?

Steve: 53:14

wasn't half an hour, in fact I think it's about six or seven minutes, but it was a big old gap, big gap yeah, but, uh, but yeah it was like putting on heroin by the velvet underground. You know you, you would upset everyone in the pub. It, it's brilliant. It's a good prank.

Brett: 53:28

It's a good prank.

Steve: 53:31

But it's classic day of the CD, though I mean it's so such a classic height of the CD move, isn't it?

Steve: 53:38

It's like hidden tracks great concept, keep them. Like the Beatles, either have that little bit of zing, dang, bing, bang, bing, bing, bing at the end of Sgt Pepper, and it's finished. Or have Her Majesty at the end of Abbey Road, and it's finished great. It's like oh no, we've got CDs and we didn't manage to fill up the whole thing, which, of course, equally, was the crime of the time let's put 27 songs on 76 minutes of music we must fill all 76 minutes. So this was the other crime of the era, was we?

Brett: 54:05

only filled 45 minutes. Let's put a ridiculous hidden track up on it I think you had to reel it up to track 99 to play it as my memory. So that's what stopped a lot of people. But yeah, if you wait a certain amount of time, it just come on and sometimes you'd forget, especially if you were, you know, having a drink. Oh, was it that one that did?

Steve: 54:20

yeah, I thought that was thought that was the stone roses maybe it might have been. Yeah, it might have been one of them yeah, and it would flip through, and it would go track one track two like track 72, track 74, track 75, track 76, and you're looking at it going. These are all silent and two seconds long. What's happening in the days when something like that seemed wildly exciting?

Brett: 54:40

before we had smartphones and we could just indulge any impulse we wanted at the click of a button. This is entertainment back in the day, kids, thank you, lucky stars but, anyway, we're all obviously, obviously, obviously voting for Endless Nameless, aren't we obviously? It's a banger it's something in the way, dave 3-0.

Dave: 55:01

So we're agreeing that the album really finishes with something in the way.

Brett: 55:05

Yeah, it does 100% and it goes through 3 nil it does, and that's the end of the first round.

Dave: 55:11

Just something that was mentioned during the first round. I think, steve, you mentioned, uh, john lennon yeah was kurt cabane the john lennon of his generation? No, was he destined to be famous and celebrated? Still no uh, yeah, I mean yes, no no, he I think he was.

Steve: 55:28

I think he was very much a man of um, a man of that time he was. You know, whether he liked it or not, I think that was the the, the path he was going to end up on but then again, you know it, it's a, it's a. You know that there are a number of things like like with the beatles, like with any band, where it's like right place, right time, situations, luck, circumstance, videos which we'll get to later, lots of things broke. This album Do you know what?

Steve: 55:58

I'm going to stick with my original idea of no, he could have just been some underground dude. I think that's why he didn't cope. I think he was a sensitive underground punk dude who ended up, you know.

Brett: 56:11

Being forced into being the quote-unquote spokesman of a generation. Whatever the fuck that means. What a load of bollocks that is. Like that pressure's way too much.

Brett: 56:19

No, he didn't, but it's yeah, once your life gets, once you become that famous and you're reasonably sensitive or not really up for that deal, which you probably didn't really consider he was, then shit gets, goes skewed very quickly and it just runs out of control from you, doesn't it? It's just, yeah, it's a whole beast around him. So was he destined I don't think anyone's destined to be famous. I mean, there are so many things that can happen that just off-release I mean you, when you you read even the story of the Beatles, it's like almost as hanging by a thread that they managed to just finally get a record deal.

Brett: 56:53

I don't know, I mean he had, but did he have absolutely everything to be famous and to have a huge impact? Yeah, amazing voice tone to his voice, incredible songwriting, great guitar, playing in an amazing dedicated, hard-working band. They weren't just like, hey, let's turn up and be cool. They worked at it hard. They really did for years. So, yeah, he had all the ingredients. But I don't think anyone's destined to be famous. You have to really, as Steve says, work hard at it, have the talent.

Steve: 57:27

Those are the prerequisites, and then you need that little bit of luck as well yeah, and there are moments that happen on the way and you know when, when the smells like team spirit video dropped onto ntv very quietly, people would watch it and get to the end and go, what the fuck did? I just watch and and it started there. That's where it started. But you know that sometimes videos are just as big a thing as anything else and that's very much part of Nevermind's story. Is the promotional videos for those singles.

Dave: 57:55

Well, we can get to it now, because at the start of the second round.

Brett: 57:59

We're into the second round.

Dave: 58:00

The start of the second round.

Brett: 58:01

I need a territorial pissing. I'm so sorry.

Dave: 58:05

I'll come back to that.

Brett: 58:05

Hold that thought just put in a sound effect of a toilet flushing, and then we'll come back on to the second round, which starts?

Dave: 58:18

surely that's the quarter finals? Smells like quarter finals.

Brett: 58:21

I mean, you've only been doing it 50 episodes, but call it second round. That's rubbish come on, do you remember that time?

Dave: 58:27

Steve did it and he the qualifiers, he called the first love it, don't you? And it just makes so much yeah, yeah, it does, he loved it because the qualifiers is like what, what's the qualifiers? And they get the quarter finals and even then it's a bit like what the quarter?

Brett: 58:42

the quarter finals. Everyone knows what the fucking quarter, everyone knows the quarter. It gives a sense of drama. It gives a sense of progression. Watch the World Cup or the US Open If you've grown up on the FA Cup, fa.

Dave: 58:52

Cup. Well, yeah, I guess. So yeah, if you've watched it. But yeah, first round, second round, yeah, that just.

Brett: 58:59

No. Second round. Third round, Semifinal. Third round, the fourth round, and people are going. Where's the fifth?

Dave: 59:05

round, fuck that. No, no semi-finals. I think you get semi-finals quarter-finals do you want me to do?

Brett: 59:10

you want me to say quarter-finals? Say what you want, but I'm going to say it anyway. So you do. Whenever you say second round, from now until the end of time, I will go quarter-finals okay, alright, I like it.

Dave: 59:25

On to the second round, where we've got Smells Like Teen Spirit against In Bloom guitar solo.

Nirvana: 1:00:04

Light up our guns, bring the best party. Light up our guns, bring your friends On in. Hey, the one who likes all our pretty songs and he likes to sing along and he likes to shoot his gun, but he knows not what it means, knows not what it means. And he's the one who likes all our pretty songs and he likes to sing along and he likes to take a long and he likes to shoot his gun, but he knows not what it means, knows not what it means, knows not what it means, knows not what it means.

Brett: 1:01:02

That's who he is so track one and track two yeah, I mean this album.

Dave: 1:01:22

It really, uh, it really delivers a um, a series of bangers up front, doesn't it? It starts with smells like teen spirit. Track one in bloom. Track two and, come as you are, track three, which we haven't got to yet yeah, I mean, are all the singles?

Brett: 1:01:38

and then you've got side a? I think they are, aren't they? Yeah, pretty much I mean that's some bangers. So it's an amazing album for it to not just go everyone's gone. Yeah, it's amazing, six songs at it to not just go everyone's going. Oh yeah, it's amazing six songs at the start and then it gets really fillery. I mean Side B is great as well, but yeah, it's extraordinary.

Dave: 1:01:56

It's like relentless sing-along. Greatest hits of Nirvana isn't it to start the first. Yeah, four of the first five tracks.

Brett: 1:02:08

There's a shape to it, though. Side a starts of an absolute massive metal heavy metal, punk rock, whatever you want to define it, banger and ends on like a, like a dour downbeat, acoustic one. And side b does the same terrestrial piercings and something in the way. It smells like teen spirit poly. They're both. There's a kind of a shape to it I mean it's. It's a flimsy argument, but I'm gonna make it anyway. Um yeah, but yeah, you're, you're. Right side A's got banger after banger.

Dave: 1:02:28

It's ridiculous, it's absolutely ridiculous and it starts with the biggest of all of them smells like teen spirit.

Steve: 1:02:34

Yeah, I mean, I think that I think that's a that is a fair point though. For it to start with, I mean for it to have such a big, hitter, heavy, single, heavy first side to an album and yet in no way to feel like the second half of the album is short, changing you that's quite a thing.

Brett: 1:02:51

Yeah, that's extraordinary. It really is. It's just unbelievable. Well Smells Like Teen Spirit is mega huge. Does it have Wonderwall Syndrome for overview too?

Steve: 1:03:00

we've all heard it a billion times. Oh god, yeah, totally no. I would say no it doesn't.

Dave: 1:03:08

That's what we like. Divergence of opinion here on mccartney and goal, so not for you, dave and I'd say and, and that is to that speaks to just how amazing it is that it's one of those songs that doesn't feel overplayed, even though it's overplayed oh, I mean hugely overplayed, I mean literally.

Brett: 1:03:26

I mean hugely overplayed, I mean literally on heavy rotation. The video was on MTV forever when it was released.

Steve: 1:03:34

But that was the moment I think that was the moment You've got this very strange murky anarchy cheerleaders. Video drop. It didn't sound like anything else. It didn't look like anything else and that is a combination. You couldn't see their faces and they were very mysterious, slightly blurry, wasn't it?

Brett: 1:03:52

you couldn't really tell how many people were even in the band let alone what they looked like, and and it just it was about the crowd, wasn't it that video, yeah, yeah, and the crowd.

Steve: 1:04:00

You know that really changed the whole thing because people just were like what, what is happening? What is this? Um. But yeah, I mean I'm not saying that I don't like listening to it now, I'm just I just have heard it a lot, um, but you know, comparative to the rest of the album, but you know it's still a great track. I mean, the lyrics are complete nonsense. Um, I mean, isn't it here?

Brett: 1:04:23

we are now great entertain us is a good line. Now, here we are now. Entertain us. That's a nice the first a good line, though. Here we are now entertainers. That's a nice opening line.

Steve: 1:04:29

The verses are good but then, once you get into mulatto albino, my libido and these sorts of things. It really is like okay, but you know shouting a denial 37 times at the end. It's a denial. It sounds so powerful, it's so powerful.

Brett: 1:04:50

It doesn't matter, it's that whole. Thing I always come back to is the chime of the lyric. I mean, some of his lyrics don't necessarily add up to a hugely coherent, uh, end point, but that if you're a 16 year old, screaming denial, I denial, or whatever it's, yeah, it just feels amazing and you feel like you're, you know you're fighting the system, you're standing up to the man, whatever. It is great and like the amount of mosh pitch we would have been involved in, because this came out when we were 16, at the perfect time to launch yourself into a mosh pit.

Brett: 1:05:21

Uh yeah it's just phenomenal feeling, but he had it he had a good.

Steve: 1:05:25

It's not just about the scan or the vibe of the lyric. Sometimes because some of that Red Hot Chili Peppers stuff it is just meaningless, completely meaningless wordplay. And you know a denial, it still manages to when it matters, when the vocals push through in a way where you can hear what the words are. He picks the right word because a potato would scan, but it wouldn't it. You know it doesn't. You know how, about a potato?

Brett: 1:05:56

a potato a potato would sound better and more american, certainly, but um, you know I mean when, dave, you asked if he was destined to be famous, if he had chosen fatefully to sing a potato, I think it could have derailed the entire fucking story and we would never it would have been a different project yeah, I mean yeah, a better project

Dave: 1:06:17

someone argue definitely so it's up against smells like teen spirit is up against in bloom, which is also one of the most sing-along songs on the album.

Brett: 1:06:30

In fact, it contains the lyric he's the one who likes all our pretty songs.

Dave: 1:06:34

He loves to sing along sing along with all our pretty songs, yeah well, that's what I love about that song.

Steve: 1:06:39

As I say, you know, that's when it was paired up with polly I. I really like the fact that it helped because he was. He was bullied to all hell by jocks. You know, classic sort of sports, playing jocks at school and that sort of thing it was such a dig. Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it was such a dig at you know this whole thing of he's the one that likes all our pretty songs and he likes to shoot his gun. He likes to sing along but he doesn't know what any of it means.

Steve: 1:07:04

He's not listening he's not listening to the lyric, he's not paying any attention to the song, you know, and it was because, again, that was part of his thing was I don't want jocks coming to my concert and be like yeah, nirvana, yeah, metal guitar is loud, you know, and he fucking hated that and that he would have definitely hated that they would have definitely loved it as well.

Brett: 1:07:27

He would have hated the success, because when you're that successful, you cannot be discriminated with who is listening to you. It's everybody, and that means people who like to shoot their guns, to put that lyric yeah, exactly yeah.

Steve: 1:07:36

to put that lyric in pre-Nevermind breaking up, clearly shows that he, you know, had already suffered your average sort of college football dude turning up and, you know, rocking a devil horn symbol, you know, at his, at his gigs and that was already disquieting him yeah uh, enough to turn up on the album before they've got big, you know so. So he, I love that yeah he had no friends growing up.

Brett: 1:08:02

His mum said, or he had very few um, quite a very intelligent boy, um, and he hated, hated his hometown because it was all just really alpha male, macho guys with their guns so he described it. And he eventually became friends with um when he was a teenager, with with chris uh, nova celic, and they started to form a band and that was kind of his way out really, and then they moved to seattle. But yeah, he had a big thing about that and this is what this song is about, I think, really especially that line about likes to shoot his gun. You know, that is about his rejection of the alpha male and why he definitely, even in the early 90s, would have defined himself as a feminist and some of the lyrics on here have got some kind of allusion to that as well.

Steve: 1:08:47

But another great video as well, because it was the in bloom in bloom, yeah, in bloom. Another completely brilliant video because, because it's that whole ed sullivan, uh pastiche where they, you know because and this was the first video where, having seen them in some sort of murky smells like teen spirit, mosh pit you you got to see their faces.

Steve: 1:09:05

Beautifully ironic sort of dressed up in suits in black and white, brilliant and again it, you know.

Steve: 1:09:10

So the video had that kind of you don't really understand what's happening here, vibe, that the lyric did and I thought that was so good, um, you know, and then it sort of vaguely descended into like sort of duality chaos where there was like two nirvanas, like the one, that the clean cut ones still singing along in the ed sullivan style, and then the ones in in dresses, you know, breaking up the equipment, uh, the sort of, yeah, the duality of it.

Dave: 1:09:34

Yeah, exactly, and I just um again, another great video for a great song yeah, great I remember a special mention gone, a special mention to the guitar solo in in bloom, which is a very indie guitar solo of the period it's just noise, which is brilliant, it's, it's, it's it's just noise.

Steve: 1:09:54

But again, that's what frustrates me about this album is is to have something I don't know. Some days I think it's brilliant and other days I'm really frustrated by it. Because to to have something that atonal, there's not a note in it. Uh, if it's the one I'm thinking of, it is that one, isn't it? Yeah, uh, there's not a note in it. If it's the one I'm thinking of, it is that one, isn't it? Yeah, it's just atonal noise. And it still sounds like it should be on an FAM rock radio station, you know, somehow, and that is a testament to the production. Yeah.

Dave: 1:10:27

I think it's great because of that. How are we voting?

Brett: 1:10:31

We've got to vote gang. We're trying to avoid voting because it's bloody hard Because no one wants to vote for Teen Spirit because it's so obvious.

Steve: 1:10:38

But it's very hard not to.

Dave: 1:10:39

I do. I'm going to vote for Teen Spirit. Okay. I said it wasn't overplayed. I don't hear it and feel it's overplayed. I hear it and still enjoy it as much. I mean, it's a pop tune, isn't it? But it's a rock tune, it's a generational anthem and it still sounds brilliant. That was the original title.

Steve: 1:11:01

That was the original title of the song. What was that? Generational Anthem? No, Anthem. Anthem was the original title of the song.

Brett: 1:11:16

Do you know? Do you know how it got its name? No, he called the song anthem. And uh, what's the name from bikini kill. So toby vale sounds dismissive, doesn't he?

Steve: 1:11:20

um from bikini he was going out with um, they would stay up late into the night having, uh, these intense conversations about politics and all these kind of things. And he said I've got this song played it to them and everything else. He said I want to call it anthem and that bikini kill had a song called anthem and said you can't call it that. So he's like, oh, I don't know what to call it then.

Steve: 1:11:38

And he worked, they went to bed and he woke up the next morning and she'd gone to work or whatever, and um, she'd written on the mirror Kurt smells like teen spirit right and he thought that this was a reference to some sort of radical conversation. That they'd been having the previous night that he'd forgotten because he's in his drunken haze or whatever, because it sounds great like teen the spirit of the teens rising up and didn't find out.

Steve: 1:12:08

So he changed it to smells like teen spirit because this he thought that was good. He didn't find out until after nevermind came out that teen spirit was the name of her deodorant and literally she she'd just written kurt smells like teen spirit because she, he smelled of her deodorant and that was literally just the point that she was making completely brilliant.

Dave: 1:12:29

I've just looked it up on Amazon and you can actually still buy teen spirit deodorant. It's 38 quid for a six pack you have to pay a Nirvana premium.

Steve: 1:12:44

Now, that's the. Thing.

Brett: 1:12:45

I knew it had been named it was a deodorant but I didn't know that. He didn't know that until until he found it afterwards. Well, lucky she didn't wear Lynx Africa, because that would have been a completely different vibe yeah, that would have been a different vibe.

Steve: 1:13:00

That would have been a different vibe.

Brett: 1:13:03

Toto would have been in touch.

Dave: 1:13:04

Yeah, how are we voting? I'm voting for Teen Spirit.

Brett: 1:13:09

Okay, steve, what are you going with Brett?

Steve: 1:13:12

No, Brett, you have to go first.

Brett: 1:13:13

I am also voting as far as that Teen Spirit because Ian Bloom is amazing, but I think we'd be shot if we. I think we'd be.

Dave: 1:13:23

Yeah, if we celebrated our 50th episode by killing a sacred cow, I mean we at the first stage, but we've done that before. You see so many times.

Brett: 1:13:34

I think we'd be angering a lot of people if we got rid of Smells Like Teen Spirit at it's first appearance. So I'm going to vote for Smells Like Teen Spirit and it's an amazing song, obviously, so it's very easy to vote for it.

Steve: 1:13:45

Steve, I want to abstain.

Brett: 1:13:47

I don't even know Can't do that. We've gone through this before it's gone through.

Steve: 1:13:50

Yeah, I know, but it's gone through, so I can abstain.

Brett: 1:13:52

It won't cause any issues. You've got to vote. You've got to vote.

Steve: 1:13:59

I just don't know. Just vote for In.

Dave: 1:14:01

Bloom, just do it. I'm On chorus harmonies.

Steve: 1:14:05

The harmonies on this album are fantastic.

Brett: 1:14:07

Amazing All the way through. Amazing Like he brings incredible drumming and the notes he plays. It's just an absolute beast, incredible. But the harmonies as well. Oof Incredible. Beautiful the blend they've got.

Steve: 1:14:21

There's great harmonies all over this album, so good.

Brett: 1:14:26

I mean, you think of this as a big, muscular, punk grunge mixture of heavy metal and punk sound, but there's so much melody. There's so much melody and harmony as well. It's phenomenal. That's why it's such a great album. That's why it cuts through.

Dave: 1:14:38

So our next pairing is On a Plane against Breed, better than you Know it's wrong. So what should I do? I'm on a plane, I can't complain. I'm on a plane Somewhere.

Nirvana: 1:15:04

I have heard this before In a dream. My memory's torn After it felt so new to me. What the hell am I trying to say?

Brett: 1:15:44

Even if you have, even if you need, I don't need to stare, we don't have to breathe, we can find a house, we can rent a tree, I mean, yeah, well, breed, if we're talking about Dave Grohl and his drumming like Breed is absolutely incredible. His drumming on that it's just so good. Do you know what Breed was originally about? It was titled Imodium, which is a constipation drug.

Steve: 1:16:25

Yes, because they were on tour with uh, tad yeah and uh, the main guy, tad, whatever his name is that they're named after had like chronic diarrhea on tour yeah, chronic diarrhea breed is breeds, the fourth song in the album, isn't it?

Dave: 1:16:38

so you've got um teen spirit in bloom, come as you are. And then you've got breed, which is almost like a sort of grunge punk. Uh, palate cleanser, something a bit harder before you go back to lithia which is almost like a sort of grunge punk. Uh, palate cleanser, something a bit harder before you go back to lithia which is another, another single.

Brett: 1:16:53

Yeah, you've got four. Yeah, four. It's the only one that's not as a bit. It could have been a single. It's so good. I, I love it, but on a plane it's against. On a plane which the harmonies on that on a plane.

Steve: 1:17:04

I know the harmonies. Yeah, love myself better than you, those harmonies better than you this is. This is the day of girl quarterfinal.

Brett: 1:17:12

This is the day of girl quarterfinal, because you've got this amazing, amazing drumming. What he brings this band and just elevates it way, way higher than what they even had before, which was incredible, and then on a plane, which is the harmonies he adds to it, and it actually ends on the harmonies, doesn't it? They fade down to just the harmonies which is lovely.

Dave: 1:17:27

What an amazing song did they do? Was on a plane one of the mtv unplugged songs? Yes, I think it was. It's really special on that as well when it's played acoustically. So I'm gonna vote for. Go for on a plane, steve. What are you going with?

Brett: 1:17:43

I'm going on a plane as well, okay, I'm gonna vote for breed, just uh, so I can keep my punk credentials flying high with a black flag.

Steve: 1:17:52

Nice.

Dave: 1:17:54

I suspect you were going to vote for Breed anyway.

Brett: 1:17:57

Brett Possibly but yeah, I think I would have done. It's just so good. Yeah, sometimes when we do this podcast, it's like ooh there's like four really really good songs and then it's like oh, what are we going to say about, I don't know, texarkana or something like that, which is a lovely?

Dave: 1:18:14

song. I love that song, I know you do.

Brett: 1:18:17

But it's all right, because Dave's got really fucking weird taste. He probably really loves that one so we're laughing, but yeah, so what do you? How do you? But this one is just like it's totally the opposite problem. It's like how do you not vote it through? How do you narrow it down? It is tricky.

Dave: 1:18:33

So we're into the second half now of the second round. Quarter finals. The tracks against each other here are Come, as you Are against Territorial Pissings. It's the first time we spoke about Come.

Steve: 1:18:44

As you Are, he's doing his English thing again. This is when we were doing. I will always come back to the Red Hot Chili Peppers episode now.

Dave: 1:18:52

What did I say? What was?

Steve: 1:18:54

it.

Dave: 1:18:55

I can't remember. I could have lied.

Brett: 1:18:58

Oh, I could have lied, I could have lied, I could have lied, I could have lied, but I didn't. But I chose not to lie.

Steve: 1:19:03

That's just not cricket brackets. Closed brackets. So, American fans, just for you, let's hear Dave say those titles again in the most British way humanly possible.

Dave: 1:19:14

The next pairing in our competition is Come as you Are.

Steve: 1:19:19

Come as you Are.

Dave: 1:19:20

Track three against Territorial Pissings, which is track seven.

Steve: 1:19:26

If you sound like uber British to me. God alone knows what the guy listening down in Arkansas thinks. Right now it's like, oh, those guys are so British, it just breaks me.

Nirvana: 1:19:58

Come as you are, as you were, as I want you to be, as a friend, as a friend as I know. Let me Take your time, hurry up, the choice is yours. Don't be late, take a rest as a friend, as I know. Memory, memory, memory. Oh, memory, memory, memory, memory. Just because you're a paranoid, don't mean they're not after you.

Steve: 1:21:07

Can I talk about territory of pissings, not knowing whether it's going out or not?

Dave: 1:21:11

Yeah, I do know what I'm voting for, but yeah, talk about it.

Brett: 1:21:16

Go on. What are you voting?

Steve: 1:21:17

for what's it up against?

Brett: 1:21:18

Come as you are.

Dave: 1:21:19

Come as you are Come as you are.

Steve: 1:21:22

Well, should we vote first then, because I feel like I know where this is going.

Dave: 1:21:26

Well, I'm going, come as you Are, come as you Are, okay.

Brett: 1:21:29

Steve, where are you going?

Nirvana: 1:21:34

I've come as you are, but I'm going to have to go.

Steve: 1:21:35

Territorial Pissings, because I think it is my favourite thing on the album.

Brett: 1:21:37

It's always dangerous to assume on this podcast, steve, because it makes an arse out of you and me and I am voting for. Territorial Pissings, oh Come. As you territorial pissings oh, come as you are, it's gone out straight out bang bang goes the single. I'm coughing with shock. In comes the hardcore mental rant on the side of side.

Steve: 1:21:59

B oh fucking love it my lord, what just happened there?

Brett: 1:22:03

well, dave said. Dave said come as you are, and then he said territorial pissings. And then he said I went, ah, territorial pissings, it's just so good. Dave said come as you are, and then he said Territorial Pistons.

Dave: 1:22:09

And then I went oh, territorial Pistons, it's just so good, it's just so good. Yeah, I was going to say come as you are, but I'm not massively shocked that it went out, not because it's not excellent, but because the quantity and quality all the way across this album is so big. I think the only surprise would be if Endless Nameless beat anything, but I think everything else, that'd be literally the only surprise.

Brett: 1:22:33

Yeah, and you know what? It wouldn't have shocked me if you voted for it, dave, I'll be, honest. But Come as you Are is great, but it is a rip-off of. The riff is famously a rip-off, isn't it? Of 80s Killing Joke. Riff is famously a rip-off isn't it of 80s killing joke song 80s yeah and they kind of ripped it off.

Nirvana: 1:23:06

I'm 18. I'm moving in the 80s.

Brett: 1:23:11

But I read today that the welcome sign of Aberdeen, where Kurt Cabanis promises, reads Welcome to Aberdeen, come as you are. So maybe it's got some allusion to that.

Steve: 1:23:21

Well, presumably it says that since Nirvana, maybe, but I didn't read it that way. I don't think it was okay, I just I just because he's from there.

Brett: 1:23:33

May well, that would probably make sense, but the way I read it and the way it was written was more that that's what it's always read as. But yeah, that could be a kind of internet thing where someone reports when it doesn't put that disclaimer in well, something's don't know, something's wrong on the internet.

Dave: 1:23:49

No, something's inaccurate on the internet no, that can't be unlikely highly unlikely.

Brett: 1:23:55

No, that can't be right, dave, it must all be correct.

Steve: 1:23:57

No, that's ridiculous I'll have to leave the flat earth society if that's true and I have no intention of leaving because you get free biscuits- that's the most important thing about the flowers.

Brett: 1:24:07

Is the free biscuits. Lovely, all right. Well, come as you are, is it's amazing? But but we have managed. You thought here's where we surprised you listening. You thought we're gonna do it with smells like teen spirit. We didn't. We got you on core final two, three with come as you are.

Steve: 1:24:23

But it's territorial pissings, man, it's just but no, I think come as come as you are is great. It's territorial pissings man, it's just. No, I think Come as you Are is great. It's a great riff. The lyric works so well. You know, again, it's one of the ones where I don't. It's one of the less opaque sort of less nebulous, like what's he talking about lyrics. It feels a little more. I don't know what he's trying to say, but it feels a little more direct than some of them. It feels a little more direct than some of them, but the lyric works so well. The vocal works so well. The riff works so well. Everything works great. Again, overproduced within an inch of its life, but you know, again, great video.

Brett: 1:24:59

It is, but it's probably the most egregious or clear example of just him writing some lyrics that don't really mean a huge amount but sound cool and everyone's going to tune into like big anthemy lyrics which he did quite a lot on this album, didn't he?

Dave: 1:25:17

because he was.

Brett: 1:25:19

He was writing just before, just in time I'm sure that was it, yeah, and I just obviously didn't think they were going to be, uh, you know, under so much scrutiny 40 years later or 30 years later.

Steve: 1:25:29

He was writing. What do you mean? He was writing just in time for the sessions, or what?

Dave: 1:25:33

Yeah, yeah, just in time for the sessions, so he'd come up with the song and the melody and then he'd write the lyrics after that I didn't know where you were going.

Steve: 1:25:43

You didn't qualify it, so you said he was writing. You know he was writing. You know he was confused at the time because he was writing just in time and I was thinking was he writing a book at the time? I don't remember.

Dave: 1:25:51

Actually there's an example of that. The opening words, the opening lyrics to On a Plane are I'll start this off without any words, which was him just starting with. You know he was writing it literally just before.

Brett: 1:26:08

Yeah, on the plane is good. We'll get to the lyrics on that, so really quite interesting actually Right.

Dave: 1:26:14

So territorial pissings has gone through, of course it does A little dark horse that it is. And the last tie, the last pairing in the second round is lithium against something in the way.

Brett: 1:26:29

That's easy, is it? Is it I'm so?

Nirvana: 1:26:32

ugly. That's okay cause, so are you broke on? Me is Sunday morning, is every day, for all I care, and I'm not scared. Light my candles in our days, cause I found God. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something in the way.

Steve: 1:27:20

Yeah, something in the way. Something in the way yeah.

Brett: 1:27:45

I mean you've got one of the biggest single. Well, it's a huge tune, huge tune lithium. I really like the intro on it. It's got this great uh, rhythm guitar, intro and bass. It's really. Oh, I'm so ugly. That's okay, so are you, I mean that's sorry that is.

Brett: 1:27:58

If you're going to have one, the the lyric I'm so ugly, that's okay, because so are you. If you want to have one line that just sums up the idea of grunge and kurt cobain as a spokesman of a generation, that's pretty much it. If you could have one life, you just pluck, it's a perfect outsider lyric, isn't it? Yeah, it's a perfect outsider yeah, especially that era of the early 90s. Slacky had that film, slacker. You've got all of that ideology that generation x has come out, hasn hasn't it?

Steve: 1:28:27

Has that come out and also yeah, yeah, the novel comes out in 91 as well, doesn't it?

Brett: 1:28:31

And antidepressants are becoming a much more prevalent thing.

Steve: 1:28:33

So to name it after an antidepressant and brilliant, what a brilliant move to name it after an antidepressant and start with the line I'm so happy I mean it. The wonderful irony of that is great. There's some nice humour knocking about in there, isn't?

Brett: 1:28:51

there, oh loads. I mean, have you seen the film Montage of Heck by Brett Morgan? Yes, it's a documentary pulled together from a lot of archival footage or background footage of Kurt Cobain, like home videos and things like that. I think Courtney Love approached him and asked him to to make a film because I think ostensibly she wanted their daughter to have a greater sense of who he was as a person, rather than this kind of spokesman of a generation grunge hero. You know she wanted to know who he was as a guy.

Brett: 1:29:25

Then you get a sense of like here's just his humor as well, like and all the beefs he had with axl rose and he'd always use axl, axl rose and hair metal as the punchline to everything and he was a funny guy. But he was, yeah, very, you know, a nice, sensitive, normal guy and you can see how obviously he just wasn't really ready or interested in being the megastar that or the spokesman that everyone wanted him to be. I mean, I went into it rather naively oh great, it's a documentary about kurt cobain, that'd be really interesting and it's essentially a document to him but also to his struggles, because we know how the story ends and it's incredibly bleak way for it to end and you do get an insight into that like how he struggled and really just couldn't cope with that pressure. It's kind of a harder watch than I was stupidly imagining anyway. So there we go. Montage effect is is.

Dave: 1:30:18

It's an interesting film it's, um something in the way, a good way to close the album steve I don don't know.

Steve: 1:30:28

It's very atmospheric, yeah, I guess.

Brett: 1:30:31

Where else would it go If it stays on the album? Where else would it go? It wouldn't.

Steve: 1:30:34

I'd either lose it or leave it there.

Brett: 1:30:36

There's nothing else that could end the album there's nothing else on this album.

Steve: 1:30:39

That could end this album. I just don't think it's as good as people think it is. I think it's tainted by the fact that you've just listened to a classic album. So you're, you're people. I think I feel like people give it a freer pass than it deserves when the lyrics are total hogwash and I think it meanders and I think it's um atmosphere over songwriting or musicianship or singing or anything. Really, I don't like massively hate it, I just think it's not as good as people think it is what do you think?

Brett: 1:31:20

I think it is as good as people think it is maybe slightly better interesting, interesting.

Steve: 1:31:26

Those people, at least we know we disagree with the people exactly.

Brett: 1:31:30

We've covered all bases. I love it. I think it's fantastic. I think, like we took a lot again mccartney and gold trademark is talk of talk of bookending the album. If we're going to get into an album, it's important how you start and how you finish. We've definitely established that as one of the rules of a great album and this is an extraordinary bookend. From the violence, the power of smells like, to the spirit, to then this raw intimacy of something in the way is extraordinary. And could another band, any band, pull off that spectrum of of emotion and feeling? Uh, I don't think they could. So that's a fascinating um side thing about this album the way it starts and it finishes. So, yeah, I love the fact that it's the last song on the album. I love it and I think it's an amazing piece of music I am somewhere in between the two of you oh, that's good.

Brett: 1:32:19

Now, this is interesting. Usually I am in between, so it's good that you've been. You're the lukewarm water in this situation it's fascinating.

Dave: 1:32:26

It's great well, it used to be one of one of those songs like what's the? Um metallica one, that the acoustic one, that um? Nothing else matters, it used to be like that, didn't it? It was played around a campfire.

Brett: 1:32:40

Somebody would get an acoustic guitar out and play it well it's really easy to play, though, because it's two chords the entire way through it's. So it's the first song I ever learned. Because it's really easy to play, though, because it's two chords the entire way through, it's the first song I ever learnt Because it's two chords and they're really close to each other on the neck E minor and C major, 7. But a weird version.

Dave: 1:32:55

And they probably play Nothing Else Matters as well, and if they were really good at guitar, they'd play Under the Bridge.

Brett: 1:33:00

Yeah, showing off. Yeah, that was the show-off tune, wasn't it?

Steve: 1:33:04

yeah, yeah, definitely, except really they just played the they'd play the intro and then yeah, and then they'd sort of just play some chords because they haven't yeah, yeah, that you also have to play the chords interestingly as well.

Brett: 1:33:17

So how are we voting? I'm definitely voting for something in the way I'm definitely, definitely vote.

Dave: 1:33:23

I was gonna say the same at the same time. I'm definitely voting Lithium. Wow.

Brett: 1:33:31

Okay, well, I mean, the interesting thing about Saving the Way is the production was interesting because he basically I love the interview on the vocal, the way he's just so quiet on that verse, it's so tender and intimate. It was just extraordinary when you think this is a man who's just you know, 12 songs ago, hollers, here we are now entertain us. Just you know, 12 songs ago, hollers um, here we are now entertainers, you know, and I'll buy no amalada just screaming, and then he comes out with that. That shows he's fucking unbelievable range as a singer, yeah, um, and the emotions he can touch in in the listener.

Brett: 1:34:00

But he basically butch v got him to record it on a guitar almost immediately because he was in this, in this groove, to do it in in in the room, not even in in the studio, I think in the control room, and it's slightly out of tune, the guitar and it's slightly out of time. So he wasn't doing it to click. So everyone had to then overdub to that and it just took forever because they loved the vibe of it but obviously they'd they'd not followed any of the kind of the rules of recording which is to separate everything to it to click during time. So overdubbing.

Steve: 1:34:26

It was a nightmare do you know, what actually I think most is getting under my skin and annoying me about it is that it was recently. It recently became very, very popular again in the last two or three years because it was included on the soundtrack of the Matt Reeves Batman film and you know, because that was a much more dark, edgy Batman film than we've had in a while how many fucking Batman films? Have there been. There's a.

Brett: 1:34:53

Batman film every three years. It's more fucking regular than the Olympics well, this was outside the DCEU.

Steve: 1:34:59

This was the new one with what's his name from, twilight playing him, and there must be like 24 Batmans now yeah there's quite a few but what bothers me about it? There must be like 24 Batmans now. Yeah, there's quite a few, but what bothers me about it is that there's been this very, very irritating thing that happened in film soundtracks, you know when they get like. A good example of it is Marilyn Manson doing Sweet Dreams by the Eurythmics. Yeah, yeah, doing sweet dreams by the.

Steve: 1:35:26

Eurythmics, where they just do like a slowed down goth style version of a popular song at half speed and play it in the trailer sweet dreams are made of this and it's like you know someone's oh this is a dark film and it's like okay, we get it, you've taken a song, you've done a slow version of it.

Steve: 1:35:48

it's like, okay, we get it. You've taken a song Crossfade slow-mo.

Steve: 1:35:49

You've done a slow version of it that's slightly dark and the thing is that it was like someone was trying to subvert that a little bit. Oh, we'll put something in the way in, because that sounds like all those songs, except it is actually its original self. And I think that got on my nose a little bit, because it's just like just everybody stop it. So I sort of associate it with that craze, even though it's actually not representative of that craze. But whatever you know, it's a good song, it's all good.

Brett: 1:36:16

Oh yeah, I love it. I love it, but it's gone out to Lithium, which is you know, fair enough. Lithium is amazing as well, there we go.

Dave: 1:36:23

It has, and that completes the second round, finally, quarterfinals. Quarterfinals. Yeah, Now we're on to the semi-finals, Brett.

Brett: 1:36:33

Or the third round, as I like to call it.

Dave: 1:36:36

Yes, the first pairing in the semi-finals is Teen Spirit against On A Plane.

Brett: 1:36:42

Ooh, that's quite an interesting pair-up. Smells like Teen Spirit versus.

Dave: 1:36:46

On A Plane. Oh no, sorry, Hang on. Oh, for fuck's sake unbelievable.

Brett: 1:36:50

We can't fucking rely on him for anything go on.

Dave: 1:36:51

What is the third? Round dave proper before we get there um. Do either of you remember your childhood swimming lessons?

Brett: 1:37:00

yes, not really. I mean, I hated swimming because I'm yeah, I couldn't swim very well, go on. What happened to yours, steve?

Steve: 1:37:07

I met Dave. That's where I met Dave. Did you no way?

Brett: 1:37:11

What people?

Dave: 1:37:11

don't know on this podcast.

Steve: 1:37:13

everybody is that Brett and Dave were like a pair through school and I met them later on in the teenage years and then we became. You know, there's a sort of bond between the three of us that exists, but those two had a very tight friendship. But what is forgotten to history is that I met dave a long time before brent, before me before breakfast.

Brett: 1:37:39

You've got 10 years on me swimming lessons.

Steve: 1:37:42

It's just that we didn't, you know then, connect particularly strongly at that early stage.

Brett: 1:37:46

That's also you know did you try and dunk dave? Did you try and push his head under the water?

Steve: 1:37:51

he bullied me it's like he'd throw bricks into the swimming pool and make me wear pyjamas and swim down to collect, them, make you put your pyjamas on and pick them up? Yeah, exactly.

Brett: 1:37:59

Yeah, when do you ever need to go swimming that late at night to pick up a brick? I mean, it's such an unusual skill to. Yeah, I mean is it that urgent to get a brick, really? I mean, you know, and it's going to be wet, so the mortar won't set on it anyway, so it's just pointless, a pointless task really, I think, to make these people do that.

Steve: 1:38:19

Don't you? Well, I mean, dave made me do it just for the sake of upsetting me. So, yes, I totally agree. There you go. He's a bully, he's a bully. He's a bully. He's a bully.

Brett: 1:38:28

He's always been a bully. He's the type of guy Kurt Cobain would have hated.

Steve: 1:38:31

Yeah, exactly, axl Rose would have loved.

Brett: 1:38:35

That tells you everything you need to know. Yeah, exactly yes, I remember my swimming lessons.

Steve: 1:38:38

Dave, when are you going with this? The cover art.

Brett: 1:38:43

Ah, the cover Well yeah. The cover art is quite an extraordinary cover. I mean, people probably don't think about cover art as much these days with albums, because it's just a little thumbnail, isn't it on Spotify? But yeah, it's quite an image. Do you want to describe it, Dave?

Steve: 1:38:59

I mean, everyone must know the image of it. He doesn't need to describe it. I mean, literally, if you're listening to this podcast and you don't know what the cover of this album looks like, go away, go, go away and do something else you're listening to the wrong podcast.

Dave: 1:39:13

You're listening to the wrong podcast. I'm not sure what podcast you were googling.

Steve: 1:39:16

You're the wrong audience member it wasn't this one that you were searching for but to everyone else we love you.

Dave: 1:39:23

Please stay yeah, it was. It's that famous, isn't it the cover of this album?

Brett: 1:39:29

yeah, it's very famous and it's a very 90s message as well, isn't it? It's like oh we're all chasing money.

Steve: 1:39:38

Don't chase money. It's bad. It's like, yeah, okay, that's a little bit on the simplistic side, but thanks for that. It's like, oh, the corporate machine which this album's about to become.

Brett: 1:39:50

The irony, oh the irony.

Steve: 1:39:53

And apparently the guy took photos of a girl child and a boy child and the photographer preferred pictures of the girl child. But Kurt Cobain was like no, we need the penis, we need to see the penis of it, we need to see the little winky. What this album needs is a little winky woo on the cover. It's not going to sell. It's not going to sell with a lady hoo-ha on it. We need a winky woo that was literally how the conversation went, word for word how did the record company feel about that?

Dave: 1:40:23

I don't remember didn't they try to object to. They wanted it airbrushed out honestly, and Kurt wanted to put a sticker over it saying something like uh, if you were offended by this, then you're a pedophile honestly, the answer to any question in any podcast, which which is, which is along the lines of did the record company? How did the record company feel about the cover? They hated it. How did they feel about the production?

Steve: 1:40:55

they hated it. Did the record company want to go with that decision?

Dave: 1:40:58

no, how did they feel about being a triple album?

Steve: 1:41:02

they hated it because record companies I mean it. Just it's almost pointless to go into it because record companies are, as we all know, complete penises.

Brett: 1:41:12

Uh, ironically, uh, in this conversation well, the interesting thing about talking about this record label is is david geffen, that he specifically signed sonic youth because they were like the total heroes of the rock scene and he knew if he could get them, everyone else would come on board because, oh, you've got sonic youth, okay, you must have integrity. Once you've got sonic youth, then everyone else will sign on because, like, you've got the they were the gateway band, yeah they were the one everyone loved and respected. They were super cool, you know?

Steve: 1:41:41

well, it was them that said to nirvana, because kirk commandant adored them, didn't he? Yeah, it was them it was them that said uh, yeah, you want to sign to geffen? Geffen, honestly, david Geffen's a very strange character anyway. He went from being like a a real hero sort of counterculture hero guy to being an absolute villain and then being to sort of like a more opaque sort of not quite sure character. But he's a.

Dave: 1:42:04

He's a very strange character study, that man did he have Guns N' Roses signed at the same time? Wasn't Use your Illusion released on Geffen? I don't remember you mean the Red and the.

Steve: 1:42:16

Blue album.

Dave: 1:42:17

Yeah, the Red and the Blue album. That's right. So the first pairing in the semi-final is Smells Like Teen Spirit against On A Plane. Hey, hey, hey, we'll be right back oh hard.

Steve: 1:43:40

He was really worried about smells like teen spirit because he two things he he was really scared about playing it's the band, because he was absolutely terrified that the band would think it was a rip off of More Than A Feeling by Boston. More Than A Feeling by Boston, think about the guitar riff in that. Think about that big guitar riff. In fact, if you could play a little bit of that guitar riff here, that would be amazing. Can I play it now? Shall I play it now?

Steve: 1:44:09

Yeah, yeah, shall I play it now, but he was also when it came out. He was terrified that the public would realise that it was a rip-off of the Pixies because it had completely co-opted their quiet, loud, quiet, loud thing and he desperately wanted to be in the Pixies or, by his own admission, just in a Pixies cover band, because he adored the Pixies so much. So he was. It smells like teen spirit. He's like. You know the band aren't going to like it because they're going to think I'm ripping off Boston. The public aren't going to like it because they're thinking I'm ripping off the Pixies.

Steve: 1:44:56

This isn't you know. So he was a bit, he was a bit, you know.

Brett: 1:44:59

He wasn't convinced but afterwards, after it had come out and this album had blown up and become as mega successful as it, started to hate playing Smells Like Teen Spirit. They hated playing it. And my wife guess what? My wife's first ever gig was Go on Nirvana. That's ridiculous. I mean that's just tops all any list anyone could ever. I mean it's ridiculous. Yeah anyway, but she said went to the gig and Courtney Love's band was supporting.

Brett: 1:45:29

I don't think they were called whole at the time no, I don't think they were called whole at the time. I think they were called calamity jane, um, or it was. The band was called calamity jane and they were playing and the audience were just a bunch of boorish twats and they were kind of bottling her off. So when nirvana come on, they fucking hate everyone and they just they literally do their contractual amount of time on stage and what what they would do is they would start playing Smells Like Teen Spirit and then not play it and play Going to Lithium or something like that. And you look at the set list and it's like I even think they ended with Endless Nameless. It's just extraordinary. Like they were just like fuck you, you know it would have really got their goat, but yes, she said it was. Like you know, it's great to have that as my first ever gig, but it wasn't like I saw peak nirvana, because they were pissed, but yeah, but it

Brett: 1:46:20

becomes yeah, but this song does become an albatross around their neck, like there was a point where they would still play it, but he just wouldn't do the solo. He just fucking hated playing the solo, didn't he? Um, and he just wouldn't play it. So, but it's just a huge song, isn't it? That is the song of, of a generation chief, isn't it like play it still now to people that age and they go mad for it? But on a plane is beautiful as well.

Steve: 1:46:42

I love the harmonies and that I'm gonna go smells like teen spirit and leave you two with a difficult bit I love on a plane, but I think even I have to debout the superiority of of teen spirit at this point. So I am also going to go early and vote for teen spirit yes, oh, clever, and then dave.

Dave: 1:46:58

That's easy for you now well, I would have voted for teen spirit anyway. Okay, so it would have been a three nil but on a plane yeah well, the lyrics.

Brett: 1:47:09

The lyrics were interesting because it's like he's got a few lines in that that just we say it is now time to make it unclear, to write off lines that don't make sense. It's just like he's alluding to the fact that he just does sometimes come out with stuff that just doesn't make sense, just because, like Dave Grohl said, he used to say the music comes first and the lyrics come second, which is quite interesting. Um, you know, for for him to say and for a singer to say, but I think, you know, I think he did, I think that's what it was is important to him. So some of the lyrics are. They're interesting, they're fragments of ideas, but they don't necessarily cohere in the way that maybe like a Bob Dylan album, would you know, or something like that. But yeah, he does reference it on a plane there and he's given a clue to that, which is quite clever. Let's go on.

Dave: 1:47:54

What's the second semi-final?

Steve: 1:47:56

The second semi-final is Territorial Pissings against Lithium's, another one with the very conscious, soft, loud dynamic of the Pixies and also that he manages to go from some of those lyrics we've already talked about which are really sort of some irony. There's some humor, there's some sort of counter culture, appropriation stuff, and then and then the chorus is literally yeah, yeah, uh, which is, which is a brilliant move. It's like you know, I'm almost going to deliberately be as moronic as possible. Uh, for this bit, you know it's uh. Before we get into the, I'm not going to crack stuff which is equally brilliant. That's just so great. And again, absolute nonsense. But nonsense never sounded better.

Dave: 1:49:02

But yeah, to have a chorus that's literally yeah, this is wonderful. I think we could do a whole McCartney and Goal on the best uses of yeah in rock couldn't we and like because there's so many great ones, aren't they like, obviously, um the who won't get fooled again is he really screaming?

Steve: 1:49:21

yeah, though, that's. I think there's just a scream oh no, I, I definitely thought.

Dave: 1:49:25

I always thought it was yeah, there's two years, aren't there? There's a shorter one, and then and then it comes in. There's a really long yeah, yeah it's phenomenal, it's the way that you deliver them, and that is exceptional, and I think this is another one. This would be, like you know, right into the semi-finals of our mccartney and goal yeah oh yeah is such a popular word in rock and roll I mean, um well, you'd have she she loves you would be in there somewhere yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brett: 1:49:53

I mean I'm, I'm saying yeah. Now I'm very conscious of the fact I'm saying that to agree, but yes I agree. Yeah, there is a lot. I mean, do we want to do an entire episode on the word yet?

Dave: 1:50:03

no, no no um, no um no chance, couldn't stretch it. But to that point, I love the chorus in Lithium. I love Lithium. I'm going to vote for Lithium.

Brett: 1:50:19

Ooh, territorial pissings. Just this massive behemoth, this screaming rage, dying of the light. I am going to vote Territorial pissings because it's one of the most exciting moments in rock and roll to listen to that two minutes and something of pure screaming punk rage.

Steve: 1:50:37

And I'm going with you. I've got to go pissing, yes.

Brett: 1:50:40

Go team Are we at the final.

Dave: 1:50:43

We are, we are.

Brett: 1:50:44

We are at the final.

Dave: 1:50:46

And our final is Teen Spirit against Territorial Pissings.

Nirvana: 1:50:51

That's a mad final.

Brett: 1:50:53

Heavy and hard, heavy and hard we've gone. Start a side A, start a side B. That's a great final, that's a left-right combination.

Steve: 1:51:01

It's a great final because it's like the most expected song and one of the very least expected songs in the final together.

Brett: 1:51:09

So 50 episodes into McCartney and Goal? Which way are we going to go?

Dave: 1:51:14

What is?

Brett: 1:51:15

more redolent of our podcast? I don't know. I couldn't tell you listeners. I don't know. What do you think we're going to do? I don't know yet.

Dave: 1:51:22

I still don't know Can you predict it Before we start talking about those two, is this as close to a perfect album as you can get?

Brett: 1:51:38

to. Is this as close to a perfect?

Dave: 1:51:39

album, as you can get yes or yeah if you want, if you want to make an episode out of it, or just. How does this? How does this?

Brett: 1:51:43

rate. Okay, I will. I will qualify that it's as close as anything gets to a perfect album. There are so many nuances, so many personal tastes and opinions and everyone listen, have their their idea of what their perfect album. There are so many nuances, so many personal tastes and opinions and everyone listen, have their their idea of what their perfect album is. But this is pretty much as identikit as you can get of a perfect album. Um, it would probably be too heavy for some people. It won't have, um, a range of sound or songwriting that the beatles will have. But how many albums have ever been released in the history of ever? What millions. This is one of the finest ever. It really is.

Dave: 1:52:17

It really is if you're coming up with tick boxes for a perfect. I mean no album is perfect, but coming up with tick boxes for a perfect album, then you'd want great songwriting. You want'd want great singles on there Incredible vocals. Yeah, incredible vocals, great book ending You'd want it to be the poster child for a genre, something new that reflects society. Something timeless, something that's still listened to, 30 years later. And this ticks a lot of those boxes.

Steve: 1:52:47

I don't think it ticks the genre one. Explain that to me.

Dave: 1:52:50

Okay, this is not a grunge album, if you could even say what grunge is. I mean, grunge is maybe a sub-genre of rock, but it's quite diverse All the different bands that were around Seattle at the time. But in terms of what is regarded as grunge and the grunge movement, this is the grunge album yeah, I don't know, I'm just, I'm just being contrary.

Brett: 1:53:21

I know it isn't it isn't, I think, someone like us. It's just. No, it's just. I just struggle with it because, like we said.

Steve: 1:53:26

You know, I just struggle with it because, like we said, pearl Jam released 10, and 10 is a classic rock album that is mixed and produced into Oblivion so it sounds like 1991. And this, as we said at the time on that episode, is a punk album that is mixed and produced into Oblivion so that it sounds like 1991. And it just bothers me that both that act. Some ask me tomorrow I'll say something different. Some days I'm like I love that they sound like 1991, it's like a beautiful time capsule, and other days I think this music was not served as it should have been because it's so polished. Uh, and for something, I'm not a punk guy, brett's a punk guy, I've never been a punk guy, I want to be, but the unpolishedness of it and the lack of melody I usually find too hard which is what's so interesting about Cobain's songwriting?

Brett: 1:54:27

because he loved melody he wanted to infuse punk rock with melody. One of the songs, the albums they listened to um on the tour bus was gold by abba. They love melody and rubber soul was another big touch you talked about the melvins, the punk band the melvins, earlier and he said he wanted this album to sound like the bay city rollers being fondled by the melvins.

Steve: 1:54:49

Uh, and I, I love that. You know, it's like I wanted you know, I wanted like really, really sweet melodies funneled through punk, and you can't argue with that.

Brett: 1:55:00

No, it cuts through so incredibly well. You can't argue.

Steve: 1:55:03

But I just I find the production, just the wrong side of, slightly troubling at times. Oh, that's interesting.

Brett: 1:55:11

I mean it's's very, it's got a smooth. I I really like it. I love the production. I think uh if you.

Brett: 1:55:16

If you want something gnarlier, listen to in utero or bleach, and you'll get that vibe. If you want something a bit more hardcore, uh, but this is yeah. Obviously it becomes a huge problem for them because it just blows up. This album is released on the 21st of 24th of september and then by I think it's 11th or 12th of january. It's number one on the billboard. It takes three months, three and a half months you know, thriller michael jackson.

Brett: 1:55:40

Established artists took three months to get to number one, so it took two more weeks for an unknown band who'd sold 35 000 copies of their opening album to get to number one.

Dave: 1:55:49

That's how quickly it happened they needed to quickly go away and press a few million extra copies.

Brett: 1:55:56

That everything at the geffen uh pressing plant. They couldn't produce any other albums that just churn out this album. That's a stop, stop, stop, stop pressing sonic youth albums. We need more. Never mind, we've got to get it out. It was crazy, overwhelming.

Dave: 1:56:09

Too much, way too much our 50th episode has come down to the final two songs teen spirit against territorial pissings. Sorry, I said it again, didn't? I just love hearing you say it. I just, I didn't mean, I just love to hear you say those words as I said it, I I just I caught myself sounding like those words. As I said it, I caught myself sounding like the policeman from Alo Alo Territorial pissings, territorial pissings.

Steve: 1:56:41

I love it. I know which way I'm voting.

Dave: 1:56:44

I'm voting with the spirit of punk that is, territorial pissings, which you declared early on, is your favourite thing on the album. Territorial pissings on is your favourite thing on the album Territorial.

Steve: 1:56:53

Pissings, I love it.

Dave: 1:56:57

I'm going Teen Spirit, which might be a bit obvious because it's the catchy pop slash rock anthem.

Steve: 1:57:07

Oh, I'm so desperate for our 50th episode to end with Brett staying true to his punk roots. And it's like did you desperate for our 50th episode to end with brett staying true to his punk roots? And it's like, did you listen to the 50th episode of mcconnie goal? They somehow managed to choose territorial pissings as the winner of never mind. I'm so keen on this I I really hope this is the way this is going, would it not be the most? I know I don't usually lobby, but I don't usually lobby. I don't know which way you're going, but but for once I'm going to lobby a little bit. Do you really want, in amongst all these podcasts that you can tell what's coming, the mainstream answer to be that we got to our 50th episode and we did a relatively obvious album and the most screamingly obvious thing on it won.

Steve: 1:57:51

Can you really live with that?

Brett: 1:57:53

yeah, I mean you're lobbying hard, but it is Smells Like Teen Spirit. Dave, you're voting for. Smells Like Teen Spirit. Have you voted?

Dave: 1:57:58

I am, yes, I have, yeah. So you have got the decider, brett.

Brett: 1:58:02

I've got the decider, which I feel is fitting.

Dave: 1:58:05

I think it's fitting hang on, can so the most beautiful beautiful song.

Steve: 1:58:11

Indigo girls covered it once as well. Which is which is get together? Come on yes yes, brother, everybody get together, try to love one another right now beautiful, beautiful 60s anthem of love and very hippie and it's the most punk rock thing that ever happened to sing. I mean, can you think of another time when a song opens with someone else basically trolling uh another song by singing a hideously out of tune, drunk style piss, take version of it and then going into the song itself? That's the most punk rock thing ever yeah I love it.

Steve: 1:58:49

It's another great thing about pissings.

Brett: 1:58:52

Yeah, I think that's Chris doing the vocal on that apparently.

Steve: 1:58:54

It is yeah At the start.

Nirvana: 1:58:55

yeah, come on people now Smile on your brother.

Brett: 1:59:00

Everybody get together, try to love one another right now, and Dave tell me about. So I like this. You're both going differently, dave.

Dave: 1:59:12

I haven't got anything unfortunately, to add to what we've already said about it. So you've got the obvious stuff, like it's the soft, loud, pixies dynamic. It's iconic, insane.

Steve: 1:59:23

Of an album of catchy rock anthems.

Dave: 1:59:27

it's the most catchy by far on the album you know what can you say about his teen spirit?

Steve: 1:59:36

that was the worst lobbying ever.

Brett: 1:59:37

How I think his lobbying is. Do you know what it's so good? It doesn't need lobbying. That wasn't his argument, he just failed to lobby.

Steve: 1:59:44

So if you were choosing on strength of lobbying alone, this would be a walkover well, you lobbied and he, and he just jobbed that's what's happened yeah, but smells like teen spirit is, um, an iconic song.

Brett: 2:00:00

It's probably the song of our generation and it still rips through today. It's so powerful when that vocal comes in. I mean it's it's the whole other whole dynamic of what nirvana is all about. And it's against territorial pissings, you know, which is opens up not even a single opens up the b side of the album. Well, uh, 50 episodes in and we're still debating great songs, great albums. It's been an absolute joy. Thank you for everyone who's ever listened. We love you for listening. It's been great fun doing this and I'm looking forward to the next 50. But my wife told me one thing before we started recording this podcast that this song had to win and we both fucking love it and we will both have very, very fond memories of dancing ourselves to the point of exhaustion to it and like just so engrossed in it as an intense experience. And and all I can say is, dave is, you've got to find a way, because territorial pissings is the winner of mccartney and goal it was always the winner, always the winner of mccartney and goal.

Dave: 2:01:06

Our 50th episode, never mind by nir, is Territorial Kissings. Get that white horse yeah.