Why Creators Struggle To Find Their Place In Church (and how to fix it) | Rick Sorenson, Author

Have you ever found yourself in conflict as an artist with the church you want to serve - either because you didn't fit the mold, or the church didn't know how to develop your skill? 

Is there a solution? Rick Sorenson thinks so. 

As a lifelong artist, and now author and speaker, Rick has relentlessly explored the connections between faith, creativity, and worship. In this conversation we explore all three to help you realize the key to finding your place in a congregational setting as a creator - and to help churches better shephard their creative members.

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Transcript

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (00:00)
Tell me if this has ever happened to you as a creator in a church environment. You feel the pull to share your gifts. You take the leap of faith to make it known. And instead of encouragement and fulfillment, you experience something that totally undermines your confidence and your creative ability. A lack of development, an attitude of indifference, or maybe worse, rejection because you're just not good enough yet.

So here's the question, are we stuck between accepting everyone in a church, no matter what their talent is, and making the standards way too high to encourage emerging artists to find a place in a church? Is there any way that artists can be both challenged and nurtured by their congregations?

To help us answer that, we're going to talk to someone who has spent decades studying the intersection of art, faith, and the church's relationship with creativity. Rick Sorenson is an author, teacher, and visual artist. His book, The Church's Response, explores why this tension exists and what it actually takes to move through it.

Rick's father actually met and played with Louis Armstrong, but it's his approach to faith and creativity that has made him an expert in explaining how artists can shape culture and how they are shaped by their beliefs.

In this conversation, we get into why so much of what happens in the church around art stays at the surface. What King David's Tabernacle model reveals about worship that many churches are not tapping into, and why the real problem for most faith-based creators isn't talent. It's not understanding that you are always a work in progress. If you're new to the podcast, welcome. My name is Allen C. Paul. I'm the host and founder of God and Gigs, and this is where we help you to become the creator that you were created to be.

And by the end of this episode, you'll have a much clearer understanding of where your art fits, both inside the church and outside of it, and especially why God might be more concerned with what he's creating within you than what you are creating for him.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (02:00)
I would like to welcome Rick Sorensen to the God in gigs show. How are you my friend?

Rick Sorenson (02:05)
⁓ I'm fine. Thank you for having me. ⁓

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (02:07)
It's awesome to have you on. And as I just mentioned, probably in the bio, in the intro, you have a lot to share. You basically have talked about and written about and shared on the exact same issues that we share with our community, art, faith, creativity, making a living sometimes in this industry, but also being able to understand what God has to say about it. So the first thing I always try to help everyone understand is the heart behind the person.

So if you are meeting someone for the first time, they don't get a chance to read your bio, your resume, you're just introducing yourself. What are those few things that you want them to know about you, the person, upon the first meeting?

Rick Sorenson (02:48)
So I grew up as a pastor's kid. I'm pretty familiar with what goes on in church. Both good and bad. And for me growing up, my parents were always encouraging of any creative thing. And I always loved art when I was growing up.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (02:55)
Got it.

Rick Sorenson (03:08)
So that's what I kind of gravitated to. And they were always encouraging me in all those pursuits. so for me, everything was natural together. It wasn't a separate thing. Being creative, being artistic was just as natural for me as being a Christian.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (03:24)
most people they are told in some way, shape or form that their creative life and their either their church life or whatever have like these separate boxes, especially in school and stuff like that. So you didn't have that experience

Like what are the areas that you were entering as you were growing up that was kind of, you know, your artistic expression?

Rick Sorenson (03:43)
So my dad, when he was a kid, was a trumpet player. So my dad grew up in Nevada and he had this amazing teacher who knew like all the greats of that time. So he would take a couple students with him to Las Vegas or to Reno and

they would jam with who's ever playing there. So my dad jammed with Louis Armstrong when he was in ⁓ junior high.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (04:07)
Whoa.

not a line that no one else gets to say that line that my dad jammed with Louis Armstrong. That's insane.

Rick Sorenson (04:15)
I heard that from my dad growing up. And so I took his trumpet. In fourth grade, I joined the band and learned to play the trumpet.

And then in seventh grade is where

I think what I describe as began the mature process of learning the skills of art, of drawing, of painting. So that all started really in seventh grade where the first class the teacher put a white ball on table with white paper underneath it, turned out all the lights, covered all the windows, and turned on a small lamp.

that was shining down at the ball at a 45 degree-ish angle. And he taught us how to not only see the shadows, so in a sense, he taught us how to see light and the study of light. And to see how light bounces and bends and just hits and interacts on an object and creating the shadows for that object. And so that...

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (05:03)
Hmm.

Rick Sorenson (05:14)
And then we added objects later on. further in the class, drew cow bones, which I've really come to love bones from studying bones. just the way God shaped these inner things are just so fascinating. Just when you have to now sit down and draw it.

then you start to study it. And you're not just glancing at it. You're actually studying the interactions of light as it's hitting on this object. So you can probably tell that I get excited. It's just not drawing a ball, but you're interacting with what God has done with light. And so that began actually my understanding what the Bible talks about light.

I have a better understanding because I've studied how light hits on an object.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (06:00)
That makes a lot of sense in terms of not just seeing something as a skill, but also what the skill teaches you about obviously light or about whatever that particular thing, but what the actual art or the discipline teaches you about God. So I wanted to make sure I pivoted right there to what you have seen as you've begun to study more, not just about art, but about theology and how art actually helps us know more about God. The church,

I would say historically, would ask you this question honestly, I wouldn't say it, I would ask you. The church used to be or still, maybe you think it's different, was a place where art was celebrated and helped us know more about God. So I guess my question is, do you feel that's still the case that art and the church helps other people understand more about the way God created their universe, about how he operates, his functions, or has the church kind of lost some of that?

Rick Sorenson (06:38)
Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (06:55)
over the years in terms of Does the church still a good place for that or have we lost that over the years in your estimation?

Rick Sorenson (07:01)
⁓

I think in some ways, probably the classic time most people think of is like the Renaissance where all of this was being discovered. so I think artists then, even if they weren't Christian, they had this worldview and I think they saw it more in terms of learning the underlying things that God has put into creation and...

But for when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, the church was not as favorable to the arts. Not really. was not thought of positively. So it was Francis Schaeffer who kind of opened up the church's understanding that

Art and creativity is a positive thing and is found in the Bible. Kind of before that it was all seen as bad that there's no connection or the connection is only from a biblical understanding. It's not from also this practical understanding. And so that

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (07:56)
Okay.

Rick Sorenson (07:59)
learning skills except for Christians that really were involved in the arts and they saw this connection themselves, but the church as a whole did not. So I would say that things have opened up more, but as far as the deeper understanding of what you're talking about, it's not really pursued in church.

⁓

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (08:19)
Yeah, it's funny you say that like that because I have found in my own practice as a worship musician, having played every Sunday for years and years and years, having been in different denominations, not a lot. I haven't been switching churches my whole life, but I've been in more, more Protestant, more traditional churches like Lutheran denomination. And I've been more in a evangelical non-denominational situation. So I've been in all kinds of like different where, where I've seen it operating, right?

Rick Sorenson (08:46)
Right.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (08:46)
And so there is this understanding that the art should give glory to God because we have music and we have dance ministries and we have things like that. But it's interesting that you said it in terms of the surface area. And here's why I'm asking this next question because I feel at least in art and singing, the church is one of the few places where let's just say this way, congregational singing. one of the few places that it still occurs. It's one of the few places where there's like

Rick Sorenson (09:09)
Sure.

that's true.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (09:16)
Yeah, where music goes out or art goes out of entertainment, it actually enters an area of, we actually want this to form opinion. We want this to help you understand the world. So I guess my question is now that kind of like second half to that same question, what should we be doing? If it's surfacey, if we're not really using the power of art to help teach people about God, then what would be your...

Rick Sorenson (09:22)
Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (09:42)
antidote in a way to help us see that, Hey, these are ways that artists like me can help the church say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You've got, you're missing out on certain things that we could be using this art for. So any recommendations or things that you wish that we were doing?

Rick Sorenson (09:48)
Mm-hmm.

So I think congregational singing is a good example of how you could read the like the barometer of the church at the moment. What the question involves is how do you think or what's your idea of worship?

how do you lead the congregation before the presence of God? What does that entail? And I think there's a lot of confusion at the moment about that. You see some of the big mega churches are all feeling based. They're just trying to solicit this good feeling and

In many ways, it's just we're having to, we happen to sing about God. We're not really singing to God. We're singing about God. And as I've kind of thought about this whole idea of music and worship, then I looked at King David. And how I, this is how I think that King David,

saw what worship was, that he had in his mind the pattern of the tabernacle. And so my clue to this was in Psalms 100, enter his gates with thanksgiving and into his courts with praise and be thankful unto him and bless his holy name. So the gates and the courts, I think he saw

the gates with Thanksgiving. I thought he saw that as a category. So we're entering into the gates with Thanksgiving. And then now we go through the gates into the courtyard. And that's where praise happens, is in the courtyard. Those are two different categories. And so...

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (11:13)
Okay.

Rick Sorenson (11:24)
King David also had a category called the Song of Ascents. As you read in the Psalms at the start of the Psalms, there's sometimes called this is a Song of Ascents. And those were songs that were sung to as you go up to the temple. The temple was the high point in Jerusalem and you have to go up. And so you're singing these songs to prepare yourself

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (11:35)
Right.

Rick Sorenson (11:47)
to get into the temple, to be in God's presence. And so if we think of the tabernacle or the temple as a pattern, then after we get into the courts, the center of that would be where the wash basin is and the altar for sacrifice.

And so in categories of songs, that would be the blood of Jesus who washes away all sin. At the cross, at the cross, where I first saw the light, that's the sacrifice. know, the songs of Jesus taking our place, those were the sacrifice. Now we move past that into the inner courts.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (12:12)
Hmm, okay.

Rick Sorenson (12:27)
as we go towards the holy of holies. The songs of praise at the outer courts and the inner courts are different. The outer courts, the songs are more geared to God saved us. We are free from the old life and can now go to the new life. You know, all of those type of songs. But as we...

get into the inner courts as we're getting closer to the Holy of Holies. Now we're talking about God's glory, His greatness. It's not about us anymore. We're moving past us into going to prepare ourselves for the Holy of Holies. you know, all the great feats God has done. Those type of things are...

are more songs that gets us more to the Holy of Holies. Now when we get to the Holy of Holies, we as a kingdom of priests can enter because God made us that. And it's not just the high priest that can go by himself. so, God's holiness, His loving kindness.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (13:24)
Yeah.

Rick Sorenson (13:28)
Those are not songs that are directed to me, but it's only to God. It's not how God makes me feel anymore. It's that you are holy, Lord. Holy art thou.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (13:32)
Mm-hmm.

Rick Sorenson (13:40)
There's no personal pronouns in the interactions in the holy of holies, because it's not about us. most songs that Christians sing are directed about how we feel about God, not being directed to God himself.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (13:47)
Wow.

Rick Sorenson (13:57)
And so I think there's been this misconception about what worship really is.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (14:03)
Yeah, yeah. I love the fact that you're talking about the tabernacle being kind of like a map or a pattern of praise and worship because again, I think the key that we want to make sure our listeners and people who are viewing understand is art teaches, art transforms and instructs. The way that we do things actually is walked out.

I believe this is one of the books that you might be maybe have read or familiar with. I think it's James K.A. Smith, Imagining the Kingdom. But he talks about how the church service really is a way of walking through.

the way that God operates with his people. And it's just a picture of it, the pattern, like you said, the songs are a pattern. And then the way that we even go from the opening of opening our doors and praising all the way to the benediction and the way that we make sure that the community is then reunited, just like it is reunited in revelation as we're reunited with Christ. And he walks through all these different parts. And it helped me as a musician to realize, oh, our church service is not just a function of a bunch of pieces of, you know, just a program that we put together.

Rick Sorenson (14:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (15:08)
There was a reason for the liturgy. There was a reason behind all of these things. So I'm curious in terms of, talked about praise and worship. I do kind of want to pivot a little bit to those who are outside of the church, but who are also operating in this world of art being kind of something that influences or creates a world for them. And so some of the people that are listening and watching are writers. Some of them are, you know, music musicians and their songwriters.

Rick Sorenson (15:12)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (15:35)
Do you feel that creators outside of the church also understand that they are creating worlds and creating teaching moments for people? Or do you think we just kind of like forget that at times that, you know, we actually do help people go somewhere. If we're not leading them into worship, we're leading them somewhere. Do you think that's something that creators and authors, are aware of?

Rick Sorenson (16:00)
Not necessarily ⁓ The ones I kind of the ones I know around the country They might understand they're creating worlds But to what end I don't think they really realize they're just Needing to create and they're not thinking of of it so Directional

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (16:03)
Hmm.

⁓ okay.

Rick Sorenson (16:19)
It's not like Tolkien or C.S. Lewis who created, you know, the these worlds.

in having a Christian worldview that dominates everything they do So I think CS Lewis probably was a little more Clear in Kind of presenting More of a what a biblical worldview

because it's pretty blatant at times what he's depicting.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (16:43)
Yeah.

But even when it's not, it's very, like you said, it's clearly from a certain worldview that says, here's why I am presenting this. It's not just a what, it can be beautiful. It can be done very well with excellence and with a lot of imagination. And I think there is kind of like a push-pull here between the desire for artists to be authentic, and that's the buzzword right now, right? Authentic. And they don't want to be trapped in a certain Christianese box.

Rick Sorenson (16:53)
Right.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (17:13)
They don't want to be, you know, stuck in a label that I have to create everything that is only for church. But at the same time, you know, the verse or the phrase that comes to mind as the roots or the branches, like there's no way you can get away from if you are out here making things and creating things at some point, it does point back to either who you are or who God is or one of the other, hopefully the same, but usually not, right?

Rick Sorenson (17:19)
Right.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (17:38)
And so I think there's an intentionality that you're discussing again, whether it's within ministry or outside that has kind of been lost and maybe certain people are able to find that kind of nice balance between saying, Hey, I'm not just creating for the joy of creating, I probably overuse this quote, but it's from George Frederick Handel after writing the Messiah.

And apparently doing a performance for us, one of his patrons, wealthy patrons, one of these Kings or princes or whatever. And the King or the prince comes up and says, I was so entertained by your performance. We're talking about Handel's Messiah, right? Like this is glory, hallelujah, everything literally speaking about Christ. And, and Handel says back to him, my Lord, I am so sorry if you were only entertained. I wished to make you better.

Rick Sorenson (18:13)
Right. Right. Exactly.

Yeah.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (18:27)
I wish more artists thought like that. It doesn't mean that you have to slap a label on everything, of Jesus, on everything, but you do need to realize that your art has more power than maybe you realize.

Rick Sorenson (18:32)
Right.

Well, I think that's true. And if we're only going to the surface of things, then we don't ever access that power that we could have. And so I think of that in terms of not only subject matter, because I'm like you. I don't think everything has to be blatantly Christian to impact people.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (18:47)
Hmm.

Rick Sorenson (18:57)
Something I learned from the Chinese, is that the Chinese see evaluated paintings according to calligraphy. That's where Chinese painting came out of was originally calligraphy. And so they use kind of the same evaluation of looking at the strength or weakness of a line or a stroke.

in calligraphy and they applied that to Chinese painting. And so they can look at work and see the strengths and weaknesses of the creator because of that. In some ways, each work that we do is autobiographical at the moment that it's made to show the weakness of character or the strength of character.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (19:30)
Hmm.

Rick Sorenson (19:40)
in who we are.

And so if you realize that you are putting yourself into your work.

I mean, because we can't help it, because we're the ones making it. So who we are comes through. And so when someone criticizes a work, the hard part for creator people is to separate themselves from the work. And that's something that art school beat out of me, is that I don't take criticism personally very much.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (19:51)
Yeah.

Rick Sorenson (20:08)
because you're criticized all the time. Each thing that you do, you're put up, you get talked about the strengths or the weaknesses of it. But it was learning the Chinese way of thinking about it that this is going to depict some of who you are at that moment. And it's not for all of time, it's just for when it was made.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (20:10)
Yeah.

Rick Sorenson (20:30)
Because the next one that you make, it'll be different than you were before then. Because things have changed.

I think if we realize that, then it takes some of the pressure off. But it also makes us think more deeply about who we are ourselves, because that's going to be revealed in some way.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (20:52)
Totally. And you know, the first thing that I started to think of, as you mentioned, the strength and the weakness of the artistic, you know, the actual moment of creation is that God calls us His masterpiece, His handiwork, and that we are being formed. We're the potter, He's the potter, we're the clay. And so we are being managed and formed and built up even as we are creating, we are being created.

Rick Sorenson (21:05)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (21:20)
in the process, and there's so much about this, and you mentioned the thing about identity, which is super hard for most creators, is being criticized, is making something for God, and realizing maybe the quality isn't up to par, isn't up to standard for a worship leader or for a pastor or for somebody else and says, that's not good enough, and you've made it the best you can do.

Rick Sorenson (21:44)
Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (21:45)
how artists and creators can be so cut and hurt and sometimes driven away from creative work because of the way they're treated in the church when it's true, like being able to take criticism and try to be better is definitely hard in these contexts where we feel called to something. And yet God might be using that to build our patience or build our endurance or build our skill or just, hey, you have to be disciplined and you have to take some hard, take some correction.

Rick Sorenson (21:53)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (22:15)
But I think some artists might be even driven away from that because they don't know how to navigate that.

Rick Sorenson (22:20)
Well, there's that and then you also, it's not only learning to take criticism, but now you're having to self-reflect on...

So, no, I've made some things where I show it to someone and they say, that's interesting. You know, the standard non-answer.

Or something similar. And now I have to think what are they really saying by not saying. So they're picking up on something that I got to now identify that I have to fix so that my true intention will come across. Because you want your true intention to come across and whether someone likes it or dislikes it, you can accept that because now they're...

this place in between, then you have to think, now what are they picking up on? And what is it? And how can I fix what this is? And that's not always done. I made this for church. That's good enough.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (23:19)
Yeah, yeah, this is a whole nother podcast episode I'm sure that we can't dig all the way into, but like you just said it, the whole point of why people sometimes do not like Christian art is because we say those famous words. like, well, it's my heart. Take it from my heart for God. God will accept it because it's for him. And yet people outside the church will say, that's just bad art.

It's just not good. we, yeah. So that's a, that's a huge problem. know that the, that the church and the Christian artists have dealt with with is that struggle is, you know, not, not allowing that to lower the standard.

Rick Sorenson (23:43)
Yeah, right.

Well, and now you're talking about levels of creating from, in a sense, from amateur to professional or hobbyist. And so there...

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (24:01)
Yeah.

Rick Sorenson (24:08)
So the person that you just described saying, you know,

I did this from my heart for the Lord. Because you'll hear that. And it's like, ⁓ we can't put that up. It's bad.

But you say, yes, I believe you did that. But did you, what you really wanted to put across, did you really do that? We have to help them refine. so, you know, the people are just starting out like that, that are hobbyist or

or amateurish, they don't know how to push through. And we as ones that have been at it longer have to help them in nice ways, but we have to help them push through to keep going. That is not just the first thing that you put down. There's a refining that has to go on in this process.

is what you're wanting to say truly coming across or is it just sort of there? And if it's just sort of there, then you can troubleshoot ideas with them saying, you know, I want you to get the best that you can possibly give to God. And I want to help you do that.

So that way you're not attacking them. Now you're saying, I see your heart. I see what your intention is. That's good. I want you to truly present what you want to present.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (25:22)
Yeah.

love that. I'm thinking of Galatians that popped into my mind, brother, and when we caught an assault, this is not even a fault of like actual sin. It's just not being, you know, not being quite as good. Restore someone gently, right? Like gently a kind word, not trying to beat people up and then again, drive them away from the very art.

Rick Sorenson (25:33)
Stop.

Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (25:55)
and the gift that God might be calling out if you just give them time and be patient. So I love that part. I just wanted to make sure I brought that up.

Rick Sorenson (25:55)
Right.

Well, I've seen some of this in different churches that like want to do art programs and they'll invite anybody in the congregation to do stuff.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (26:14)
Yes.

Rick Sorenson (26:15)
and sometimes even have children participate. And I think there's a place for that. But there's also a place to help improve. And so the...

There's this duality that's always in tension in churches that are doing creative programs. There's always this tension that's going on. people want to be creative, and they present it. they're, in a sense, especially the amateur artists, in a sense, bearing their soul. They're taking a chance for...

putting this in public and then the public, you know, not like what I experienced in art school, they couldn't take the criticism. They would take it all personal.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (27:01)
Yeah.

Rick Sorenson (27:02)
And so.

If we recognize there's always this tension between improving and presenting, then I think it creates this openness in the congregation for the people to keep being creative. And I'm not sure, I haven't visited a lot of churches that have this. Just the ones I have seem like they stay at a certain level. They don't really...

go towards excellence in the real way. stay, they go up like this far, but they don't go up where it could be this far. And...

I'm not sure how to to help that along because now you're getting egos involved.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (27:48)
Yeah, that's tough one when you just mentioned that in terms of not just the ego of the artist, but the people again who are being leaders in that area. And again, we're praying for all pastors and everybody in the art ministry or worship arts ministry or music ministry, because this is, I love the word you use tension, because it is a tension. There's a tension between excellence and wanting excellence because we serve an excellent God and he's,

Rick Sorenson (27:58)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (28:14)
at many times, let's look at the tabernacle that you just mentioned. He demanded excellence and he demanded a certain level that had to be done exactly a certain way from Bezalel to Moses and everyone that was involved at the temple. He said it has to be exactly into the pattern that I gave you on the mountain. And yet, as you said, oftentimes we can go to the opposite extreme and, you know, accept everything. ⁓ Or we can be too rigid and we can say that you can't even approach unless you

Rick Sorenson (28:25)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (28:44)
are at this skill level, which of course you can't do it without instruction and without being taught. So I love the fact that you said that it is a tension that we have to manage. So one of the things I want to make sure we get this before we have to close out, what would be your encouragement to the artists who loves God, who may be serving in a church or outside of church might be, know, exploring this as a hobby, as you mentioned, but has felt like the headwinds of, don't know if this is for me. I don't know if the church wants it.

Rick Sorenson (28:48)
Right.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (29:12)
I don't know if God's called me to this and I'm just trying to get these baby steps in terms of exploring how God could use my art. So what would your encouragement be to that person who is trying to navigate all these things in terms of exploring their own creative calling?

Rick Sorenson (29:28)
Well, recognize that God put creativity into you.

You know, in Genesis, it says, you know, after God created the heavens and the earth, a little bit later, he said, let us make man in our own image. Part of that image is that we are also creators, as Genesis 1.1, you know, shows us that God is the creator. So let us make man in our own image. I mean, you could talk a long time about the image of God.

in all that that entails and we still not cover it all. But one area that's not usually addressed is that we are also creators. And so you have to create.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (29:59)
Absolutely.

Rick Sorenson (30:06)
because that is part of God's image in you. And so, so it takes courage to step out into a creative area. It takes actually a lot more courage than you think. And be strong as you step out.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (30:08)
Amen.

Rick Sorenson (30:21)
Do that creative thing. Creating is not about thinking about it. It's only about doing. To create is a verb, an action verb. We have to create. We have to do something to create. And so create. And it may not be great, but each time you step out, you improve.

If you understand that, you take pressure off of yourself. Each thing that you do will keep improving. You do the best of your ability at that time and you improve that ability. So it's always going to be a continual process. I've read biographies of many artists that...

As they reach old age, they think I'm just now starting to understand.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (31:06)
Yeah.

Rick Sorenson (31:07)
and they're in their 80s or 90s and they're thinking, I just now understand. I think I saw a quote that Michelangelo might have even said that. creating is not a one time deal. It's an ongoing process. And so create.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (31:25)
Love that. That's the word that we want to leave these people with that are listening that are again, maybe have felt either criticism or felt worry about being judged, or maybe you didn't know where your art fit, whether it fit in the confines of a church ministry or whether it fit outside in terms of the mainstream arts and entertainment space, whatever that is, that is the blessing that God has put on it. The fact that you went back to Genesis is a perfect way to wrap this up.

because it starts with him and Genesis. And I like to add this part that clearly creativity continues on throughout eternity because the Bible says, and they sing a new song. Somebody had to write that song if it's a new song. And so I believe there's so much in us, whether you are, again, I love the fact that we talked about both church inside ministry and worship, and we talked about people who may not actually do this inside of a ministry, but still are called by God to be artists. So.

Rick Sorenson (32:01)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (32:18)
You have so much to share, Rick. We have to finish this up for now, but how can people find your book? How can they stay connected with you and continue to learn all that you have to share about art, creativity and faith?

Rick Sorenson (32:28)
You can get my book on Amazon, The Church's Response. Let's see, I have a sub-stack page where I write about different aspects of creating and aesthetics from both the maker's point of view and the audience's point of view. It's not necessarily Christian or in its orientation. I'm just looking at create.

the aspects of creating. And then the Lanyard Life is where I have my authors page. That's my publishing. So I'll give that to you.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (33:03)
it'll all definitely be in the show notes. We'll make sure all those links are there where people can find them. I'm looking forward to, haven't had a a pleasure of reading the entire book yet, but I'm definitely going to be looking at this because again, God in gigs started from amazing authors that I was following, trying to figure out how do I actually explain the artistic creative life in terms of spirituality and maintaining your values and your faith. And without people who discuss these issues, I would not have God in gigs. And so I appreciate you for stepping out into that very same area.

writing about it, talking about it, not letting it kind of sink to the bottom of either our church life or our culture. It's got to be put out in front because it's so impactful for everything we do. So thank you so much for being a part of the show. It's been an excellent, a very, very intriguing conversation. I'm sure it's going to be blessing a lot of people even as they listen today. So thank you for being on the God and Gigs Show.