The Legal Geeks

'Twas the Nightmare Before Christmas Spooky Review

• Joshua Gilliland and Kate Bridal

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Join Kate Bridal and Josh Gilliland for their review of The Nightmare Before Christmas, opening the many legal gifts of trespassing, false imprisonment, kidnapping, false impersonation, and negligent inflection of emotion distress. Tune in for a treat of legal analysis of this two holiday classic. 

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Josh Gilliland:

Hello everyone, Josh Gilliland here, one of the founding attorneys of The Legal Geeks. Our spooky season analysis continues with The Nightmare Before Christmas. With me to cover this amazing film is Kate Bridal, who has gone Comic-Con with us, WonderCon with us, and a bunch of other adventures. Kate, how are you?

Kate Bridal:

I'm doing great, and I'm very excited about this because uh yeah, as a as a firm middle of the millennial, millennial, uh, I am uh big into Nightmare Before Christmas. It was uh very influential in my childhood. I had a massive crush on Jack Skellington, actually, which I don't know what that says about me, but him and Aladdin. It's big stuff.

Josh Gilliland:

Did you see the movie in theaters or did you see it on video?

Kate Bridal:

I saw it in the theater. I remember seeing it in the theater, and then we I begged my parents to buy it. So I definitely also had it and just watched it over and over and over again.

Josh Gilliland:

I saw it in the theater. It was a family trip, it was high school at the time. I am curious to see the different reactions to it and generational love because it wasn't instant for Disney to convert the nightmare before Christmas into the haunted mansion. I don't remember when that happened, but it is fun to see.

Kate Bridal:

So cool. Yeah, I saw it at the El Capitaine. They played it while I was living in LA and they had a bunch of the props and the minis. You know how the El Capitaine always does that. Um, for those who don't know, it's a theater in Hollywood, and they uh when they play movies, they usually have stuff from the movies there, and so it was really cool. They had like the curly hill and you know the little figurines and everything. And I met Chris Sarandon at Emerald City Comic-Con many years ago, and he called me pretty, and I was like Jack Skellington said I was pretty, and so my my childhood crush really came back up hard.

Josh Gilliland:

You know, some people like clemation, and that's cool. So we're stop motion, so yes, creeps, yeah, good stuff, good stuff. Well, let's talk about the many legal issues in this fictional town that's focused on Halloween year-round. Uh, I know there are a lot of folks who would like to do that, that Halloween's their thing, or there are folks who are like Christmas is their thing.

Kate Bridal:

Yep.

Josh Gilliland:

Um but let's get into the issue with Sally and Dr. Finkelstein. Or is it Stein? The doctor created Sally. Is the doctor falsely imprisoning uh Sally? And as the legal standard in California is under California Penal Code Section 236, false imprisonment is the unlawful violation of the personal liberty of another. Kate, what are your thoughts?

Kate Bridal:

Well, I think as we do frequently at the Legal Geeks, we have to think about the definition of personhood for one thing, right? Like, is Sally a person? Does she count? I mean, obviously, I think she is. She has a consciousness, uh, and she's she seems to be a person. And I I mean, obviously, in this little world of Halloween town, there probably would be some different legal standards. But I mean, she's not even made of flesh, is she? She's like a she's like cotton and a doll.

Josh Gilliland:

And full of leaves. Yeah, that does make it complicated and weird because the law is not designed for uh artificial intelligence of that nature. Uh but I will go with let's say she's a person because she acts like a person, she meets the test of she's aware of who she is, she has aspirations, goals, feelings, and shows the self-awareness that I think would qualify as a person, plus communicates in a language. So, like this is yeah, before we start giving Orca and dogs, you know, personhood, like they're those are animals, it's a different category.

Kate Bridal:

She's more in line with a person, and she does have a human brain, I believe, because later when you see him building his new one, he is putting a human, squishy brain in her head, and then it snaps on his lips.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, it's like half of his.

Kate Bridal:

So which right, that's what he does with her. So maybe but I assume maybe Sally then also has a human brain in her.

Josh Gilliland:

So there is a narcissistic quality when you decide I have to make a lady for myself, it's narcissism, it's my fair lady, which also dates back to you know Greek you know, mythology as well of you cannot create someone to love you. That's not how love works.

Kate Bridal:

Gosh, the male loneliness epidemic, what are we gonna do?

Josh Gilliland:

Well, it is real, but that's not the solution to learning how to interact with other people and participate in the rest of society. You can't are there a problem with guys feeling isolated, yes. Is the solution to play mad scientist and make ladies? No. No, you need to learn how to participate in society and be of service to others and actually care about where you live. So don't just heck no, do not do that.

Kate Bridal:

Well, in that case, yes, I definitely think there's there's some false imprisonment going on because she does not want to be there. She escapes frequently and he brings her back by force.

Josh Gilliland:

Well, from some case law, in order to constitute a case of false imprisonment, it is essential that there be some restraint of that person, but it's not necessarily that there be uh confinement in a jail or prison, any excess of force or express or implied threat of force by which, in fact, the other person is deprived of their liberty or is compelled to remain where he does not wish to remain or where they do not wish to go is false imprisonment. Yeah, I think I think we check the boxes here uh that we have false imprisonment going on.

Kate Bridal:

Yeah, because at the one point he drag he's trying to drag her back, and she takes her hand off to get away from him. Um her arm, I can't remember, but he's physically he is physically trying to drag her back, and she doesn't want to go.

Josh Gilliland:

Are you familiar with the Greek myth of Pygmalion?

Kate Bridal:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's what my fair lady is based off of, right?

Josh Gilliland:

Yes, yes, it is, and also pretty woman.

Kate Bridal:

Yeah.

Josh Gilliland:

Let's keep going with some of the other issues that we have. Uh that Jack's lament goes on a long walk and ends up stumbling into Christmas town. There's a grove of trees. We see the other holidays depicted. He opens the door to go to Christmas town, but doesn't go in. But uh he's like pulled in by a vortex.

Kate Bridal:

Right.

Josh Gilliland:

And then he sees it and there's the musical number. He dresses as a snowman, he's looking in windows. Kate, do you think he's trespassing?

Kate Bridal:

Some of it, definitely. Because isn't he in the kid's room at the one point when he's talking uh he's when he's singing about their sugar plums, and the kid is like asleep at a bunk bed and he's in there. He goes in the house and he creeps around.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, that that that's not good. I know he's looking through windows.

Kate Bridal:

For sure, yes, he does that. And the snowman, I can't remember if it's like in a public e area, like a park, or if it seems to be in someone's yard.

Josh Gilliland:

I I think it's well, it's outside of buildings and on the sidewalk, or is it right in front of a house or building? Yeah, like those are tough issues uh that that you're dealing with on whether or not that's trespassing.

Kate Bridal:

Right, because what what is what is our definition? We're Californiaing again. Uh yeah, a land under cultivation or enclosed by a fence belonging to or occupied by another, uh, if you willfully enter upon with that land without permission of the landowner or an agent, you're trespassing. Um, or if you're violating signs about trespassing, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. But I definitely think, yeah, he's going, he is definitely going into people's he goes into one for sure. One house. I'm pretty positive.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, it's we're dealing with uh one of the other uh cases getting into this, and this is from a Ralph's grocery store, uh, the jury consultants, trespasses and unlawful interference with prop uh with possession of property. The elements of trespass are the plaintiff's ownership or control of the property, the defendant's intentional, reckless, or negligent entry into the property, lack of permission for the entry or acts in excess of permission for harm. And five, the depot defendant's conduct was a substantial factor in causing the harm, and that's from Kelly.

Kate Bridal:

Well, the harm element that is interesting. I was I was thinking about that earlier because that does he cause harm? I don't know. Like he the kid wakes up and he doesn't see him in there, he just kind of has a sense like someone's in my room.

Josh Gilliland:

But the trespass that completes with theft, and because when he and we'll talk about this with the next when he goes back to Halloween town, he's in a snowmobile of loaded up loaded up, so it's like he took the snowmobile and all the swag that he grabbed.

Kate Bridal:

Who knows where he got it? Because like it's Christmas town, so who knows if there aren't just presents falling from the sky or but it does seem to be that he does that no none of them know he's there because you could kind of assume, like, oh, maybe he eventually did make himself known, and they were all like, Great, here's some stuff, but I doubt that he could get away with doing that. So I don't think that that's the case. I think you're right, and he he takes it.

Josh Gilliland:

That it's heavily implied. I mean, would the folks at Christmas town welcome a skeleton-looking dude who's like, hey everybody, and you know, yeah, he creeps around the whole song, so it certainly doesn't seem like he has any intention of revealing himself to them.

Kate Bridal:

No, because again, he's taking a snowmobile is a bold move, that's loud.

Josh Gilliland:

And he's in a place completely alien, uh, right to what he knows. It's like absolutely no one's dead. And I mean, I won't bring him a song because that's weird and I can't sing, and I don't know all the lyrics. So again, a lot of negatives. But you know, again, he's doing the what's this, what's this exploring. It's one thing to be in the public square because it's a public, you know, like where there's like a right to be, and he's well, it's not like there's a sign on Christmas Town that says no, no entry, or trespassers will be prosecuted. Like, that's not a thing. When you're creeping around windows and looking in, like it's like we're we're now getting into invasion of privacy on top of trespass. It's just it's like it's a it's a beautiful musical number that people love singing along to. Like, that's a fact. There are cons where that happens, and people are having the best time with others who love this movie, singing their hearts out. That stuff is cool. But lawyers being the buzzkills as we are, we looked at it. It's like uh uh-uh, you're on the naughty list, dude.

Kate Bridal:

Like you don't and intent. Oh, sorry, sorry, go ahead.

Josh Gilliland:

No, no, please.

Kate Bridal:

I was just gonna say there isn't really seen because there is there isn't that intent element because he doesn't mean to be, you know, he's not intending to. I don't even know if he realizes that he's violating anybody's privacy. Although, you know what, Halloween town has houses. I think he knows that going into somebody's house is not cool, but he's so caught up that he's not intending any harm, but that's not really a part of an element of the statute, right? Because it's also negligent, and yeah, I think we could argue that's what he's doing, is he's being reckless or negligent in his trespass.

Josh Gilliland:

It's like your honor, I broke into song, I was just caught up in the moment before I broke into the house.

Kate Bridal:

I broke into song, and that makes it fine.

Josh Gilliland:

It's like, well, okay, he said he was sorry. It's like, I don't think he does. Like, I don't think there's an acknowledgement until the end of whoops, I made a bad life choice here, which brings us to the lesson. Yeah, yeah, it's God forbid stories have lessons.

Kate Bridal:

Don't appropriate other people's cultures. That's the kind of nightmare before Christmas.

Josh Gilliland:

I I don't know if that's the exact intent. I mean, because it's supposed to be welcoming, like, welcome everybody, like we're sharing, like there's and they do at the end, they get along, but don't take someone else's thing, you can enjoy it. I remember the re positive reaction to this movie when it came out, uh, seeing folks having fun. And I remember leaving the theater with my mom and brother and thinking, what holiday am I in the mood now for? Because I felt very confused. And I don't remember uh this is a notable fact, if it came out around Halloween or if it came around time of year, yeah, where it came out around Christmas time, because it's one of those movies that can be both.

Kate Bridal:

Maybe they put it out in between.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, which again, that too would work. Again, money finds a way. So if you release it before Halloween, you could have a long theatrical run.

Kate Bridal:

It was Halloween, it was October 29th, 1993.

Josh Gilliland:

Okay, that makes sense. Yep. So yeah, I worked at a movie.

Kate Bridal:

That's what it would have been my instinct, yeah.

Josh Gilliland:

I worked at a movie theater during that time period. Fond memories of this film. I then went to law school and became a buzzkill. Jack's theft from Halloween Town or Christmas Town. We do see him roll up with a snowmobile with items from Christmas Town. So let's talk. There's theft, there's larceny, there's a few things that could be going on here. So just for the sake of what the law says about theft, every person who enters any house, room, apartment, tenement, shop, warehouse, store, bill, bar, and stable, outhouse, or other building, tent, vessel, floating home, wow, railroad car, locked or sealed cargo container, whether or not mounted on a vehicle, trailer coach, any house, car defined in the vehicle code, and an inhabited camper.

Kate Bridal:

Aircraft, too. Wow. They may have had all of the all of their bases on this one.

Josh Gilliland:

Basically, anything that has a locked door where people can be could be seen as larceny/slash theft. Uh, entering you can get into an intent to commit grand theft, felony, burglary. So again, it's it's a broad definition. And the issue is is it inhabited? You know, that doesn't mean it needs to be used as a dwelling purpose at the time of the incident.

Kate Bridal:

I think this depends. I think this depends because they he has to have the intent to commit the theft when he goes in. And do we think he we don't see this portion, we don't see where he's getting stuff. Do you think he breaks in somewhere and because he sees the presence and is like, that's I want that? Or do you think he finds himself in a place and is looking around and is like, then he decides to take stuff? Maybe he is in a barn or a warehouse and he sees the snowmobile full of presents and is just like, I'm gonna ride that home and show people what's going on. But he didn't necessarily mean to do that when he initially entered.

Josh Gilliland:

So neither of us do criminal law, but that's too little.

Kate Bridal:

I work for the public defender's office. That's why I'm taking the defense side.

Josh Gilliland:

Naturally, it's and you're advocating well, okay. That's a plausible argument, but I think as soon as you get into a motor vehicle being taken, I do think I don't see a good auto petty larceny at that point of like, oh, look, some packages. We don't like people who steal packages from front porches. I I see more intent here, even though we don't see him breaking you know into places, but someone has to miss that snowmobile. Enough stuff taken that people would notice, unless he's spread it out, it's like one item per household, but then he's entered multiple households, and I think the issue is Yeah, and he's just done it.

Kate Bridal:

And by the by the second or third, he's obviously going in there to take stuff, so then you do have it. Yeah, it's it's like this is now pillaging, and it's I actually have a funny story about a package getting stolen off my doorstep once because I it's the only time it's ever happened to me, they were the least fortunate thieves in the world because all that was in it was a box of chalk and a copy of The Sound and the Fury. And I was like, have fun with some real dense reading material and a lot of chalk.

Josh Gilliland:

I have not.

Kate Bridal:

They probably thought it was like an iPhone or something. They must have been so disappointed.

Josh Gilliland:

Wow. Again, crime doesn't pay.

Kate Bridal:

There you go. You just get Faulkner, that's all you get.

Josh Gilliland:

Wow. I want an essay. That's your punishment.

Kate Bridal:

Um 10,000 words on this absolutely borderline incomprehensible book, please.

Josh Gilliland:

Let's talk about the entire town, like, decides to get in on this. And so there's so you got the town getting into it, and then Sally drugging the doctor so she could get out. Let's take Sally drugging the doctor with and having frog's breath and all that good stuff to incapacitate him so she could get out, and then we can get into whether or not a town can has a can't have a conspiracy.

Kate Bridal:

Yeah.

Josh Gilliland:

What are your thoughts on a form of self-defense to kidnapping that can can include lethal force for escaping? What are your thoughts on Sally drugging the doctor in order to get out?

Kate Bridal:

Yeah, so I guess I guess because we define, we said false imprisonment for sure. Do we think she's kidnapped? Is maybe a slightly different standard. If you're created somewhere and then you are forced to remain in that place, have you been kidnapped?

Josh Gilliland:

So if you are born, for example, in your home and then your parents never let you leave your home, is it it's definitely, I think, more on the false imprisonment side than kidnapping, unless they take the individual somewhere. Like there's if you listen to last podcast on the left, there was a very creepy German dude who built a bunker and like Oh, yes, familiar. Took the daughter down there and kept her there for years.

Kate Bridal:

Yep. And then she had multiple kids down there through him.

Josh Gilliland:

Horrific on so many levels. I think that's kidnapping. Because it moved her from one place into a place she didn't want to be. That's because there can be a fine line between the two.

Kate Bridal:

But Sally seems pretty free to wander through the whole house, and she's allowed to go outside at times. She's not just trapped in the tower all the time.

Josh Gilliland:

And she does go back.

Kate Bridal:

She does go back. She in that incident, yeah, she does. She just wants to go see Jack.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah.

Kate Bridal:

She's got a crush and she's gonna poison her dad to get out of the house to go see her boyfriend. That's all.

Josh Gilliland:

And but they're not established yet. That part's not important.

Kate Bridal:

No, no.

Josh Gilliland:

But the drugging dad to get out of the house.

Kate Bridal:

I don't know. I don't know if she's got it here. I I think that I mean, I love Sally. I want to defend her, but I don't know. This would be a tough one.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, I think.

Kate Bridal:

I think you could say she was like under some manner of duress. But then, like you said, all she does is she like brings Jack wine and then she goes home.

Josh Gilliland:

It's not like she escapes.

Kate Bridal:

Right.

Josh Gilliland:

It'd be a very different situation if she escapes the dude tormenting her.

Kate Bridal:

Yeah.

Josh Gilliland:

But she goes back and that continues to be home.

Kate Bridal:

And she's obviously thinking of it. Well, she does it regularly and comes back. That's just her way of doing what she wants of like sneaking out of the house to do what she wants.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, and it's again, how old is she? I mean, that's where are the right that's where like the issue of Frankenstein comes in. It's like it looks like a 35-year-old dude made up of other dudes.

Kate Bridal:

Is he but he's only been alive for a year?

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, but the prior brain was like in in its 40s.

Kate Bridal:

I mean, like it gets really he learns fast and he learns to read, and yeah, I don't know.

Josh Gilliland:

It gets super complicated when because that's not normal, like that that's not what we experience.

Kate Bridal:

And she uh she does present as pretty much an adult, kind of a teenage girl. Yeah, like if if there was a girl who her dad was just really, really strict and she was continually knocking him out with drugs to leave the house. I don't I don't know that that girl would have uh much of an argument, to be honest.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, but if it's knocked the dad out and then goes to child protective services, right? That's different.

Kate Bridal:

Right.

Josh Gilliland:

That that's a very in like that's not what's happening here.

Kate Bridal:

She's not looking for I don't know, I don't know all the rules around this, but you could maybe get into like uh an argument of like continued, you know, kind of like they do with domestic abuse cases that sometimes end in tragedy murder. Uh, you know, that there is a continuous kind of state of duress, and everyone always, of course, in this case is like, well, why didn't you just leave? And it's like, because you're an idiot. Um, but you know, because things are complicated and people get brainwashed, and you know, especially when it's a like parent-child relationship, it's very complicated. So, you know, maybe there's something there that you could defend her that she's continuously kind of under this stress.

Josh Gilliland:

Agreed. I I don't like the victim blaming. Yeah, like you can't, if somebody's in a bad situation where it's whether it's like a horrific family situation or a nation, like you can't just be flippant about oh, there were enough Germans that didn't like the Nazis. Why didn't they stop it? Moving forward. Can a town have a conspiracy? For those who don't know the rules with conspiracy, it's it's an agreement by at least two people to engage in a criminal enterprise. Jack recruiting people to go after Christmas town sounds like a conspiracy, but then elected officials get involved and it turns into a matter of town policy. And as we learned in our Jaws mock trial, public officials deciding on a course of action is very difficult to prosecute or to sue them. Uh unless they're actually like planning a murder.

Kate Bridal:

Well, they're planning a kidnapping.

Josh Gilliland:

They're planning a kidnapping.

Kate Bridal:

I am an entity who is known to murder pretty heavily, I would say he has a reputation, Oogie Boogie. Yeah, he's got a whole little murder casino down there.

Josh Gilliland:

But Jack also says he doesn't want Oogie Boogie involved.

Kate Bridal:

That is true, that is true, but the officials get him involved, right?

Josh Gilliland:

Uh it's the it's it lockstok barrel, the three kids. Yeah, yeah.

Kate Bridal:

And so who sends them out?

Josh Gilliland:

Jack sends them out to kidnap the Santa Claus.

Kate Bridal:

Oh, right, but with the instruction that they not get Oogie Boogie involved, that's right.

Josh Gilliland:

What they do goes against Jack's instructions. Like they they take the side quest with a separate conspiracy.

Kate Bridal:

But after Jack dismisses Santa Claus, because they bring him to Jack first to fulfill their obligation.

Josh Gilliland:

And then he ends up with a boogie. Yeah, this gets weird because from a policy standpoint, there's not often you see a town engaged in a criminal enterprise. And right if it is, it's like a war crime.

Kate Bridal:

But they are intending to kidnap him.

Josh Gilliland:

So But it's like we're taking over Christmas, is the issue.

Kate Bridal:

But you know that the kidnapping is an essential element of that part, so you know it's gonna be happening. I keep thinking of like like mafia cases, like conspiracy cases that I was taught, you know. If you have a town that's run by the mob, I don't know.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, it's it's a very weird mix of what's happening here. I think it's I think there is a good criminal conspiracy at issue. The fact it turns into a town policy is just weird.

Kate Bridal:

Uh yeah, but I don't think that stops it from being a criminal conspiracy in this case, because it is very blatantly a crime.

Josh Gilliland:

Listening to the last podcast on the left, which is doing a series on Himmler right now, you're like concentration camps had support towns. Right. You know, it created business, and the the town existed to survive the camp, uh, sustain the camp. There are other examples of like an industry builds up and there's a support town for it. You could are prosecute, like, okay, you're involved in a war crime. We're going after everybody.

Kate Bridal:

Prime example is a good, is a good one because I'm trying to think of another instance where it's like because Christmas Town, they almost seem to be more like I know they're called towns, but they seem more like countries, really, because they're so different and hard to get to from each other. I guess not that hard if you just walk into the woods. I guess no one's doing that.

Josh Gilliland:

It's like a nation state, like a city state.

Kate Bridal:

And Santa's like their leader, it's kind of like they're kidnapping the president of another country.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, I again we're dealing with fables and holidays, and so it's like this is beyond the keen of mortal men that's at play here. But again, it is wacky and weird. But I think there's an argument that you could prosecute everyone that participates. Sally wasn't the only one not on board. I think you know, like everyone else is a collaborator that could up for prosecution, but then again, it's a Christmas miracle for them not to all end up before the hag because there are other issues that take place. So a lot of them. It's a long, long list. All right, we it's false impersonation. Jack pretends to be Santa, and while he's got the outfit and he's doing what Santa does, people immediately go like that. That's not Santa. What's your thoughts on it? Is there false impersonation taking place here?

Kate Bridal:

Yeah, I think I'm latching onto the same thing you are, which is that it has to be a credible impersonation. And I don't think that it is. He's got the outfit, I guess, but he is clearly an extremely skinny, much taller skeleton man. He doesn't have like a mask that looks like Santa. He has like the beard, but he's uh he's obviously not Santa Claus. And as you said, everyone figures it out pretty quick.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, because he's not he's doing his own spin on the delivering toys, because the toys that have been made by Halloween Town for Christmas aren't normal Christmas toys. Raises the issue: are those defective toys or are they just inherently dangerous toys doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing?

Kate Bridal:

I would say inherently dangerous. They know it, they know what they want them to be. They're doing exactly what the Halloween Town people would want their toys to do and what their toys do. So they, you know, they're not defective, they didn't make it and it's acting wrong. They are just inherently dangerous, definitely, I think on that one.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, I agree with that. Because they again, there's a cultural difference here of like, what isn't this? I thought this would be fun.

Kate Bridal:

Right. Yeah. If a firework goes off in your face, it's not necessarily defective.

Josh Gilliland:

But no, you just that no, you should not have done that. And but the kids don't who are getting this don't know that. They're looking at this going like, no, it's like there's the snake eating the Christmas tree, there's all kinds of my favorite one.

Kate Bridal:

That kid's face just screaming is the best.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, it's very memorable.

Kate Bridal:

So again, the ones getting chased down the hallway by the Jack in the Box, terrifying.

Josh Gilliland:

Yes. Which raises the issue is their negligent infliction of emotional distress. I I have my answer. What do you think?

Kate Bridal:

Yeah, I think so.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, slam dunk. Like, there's no question.

Kate Bridal:

Like, uh definitely negligent, definitely not intentional. They're trying to bring joy.

Josh Gilliland:

But yeah, what you guys made a mistake. This is wrong, and you should not be making toys that hurt people. But thinking back to their song at the beginning, they're not mean. They're they think like having scary things is fun, just as people like scary movies. Like it's exactly just because you know, again, getting into like satanic panic type type mindset, just because you like a scary movie or video game does not mean you're gonna go out and start stealing Ferraris and blowing up buildings.

Kate Bridal:

No, that's not no, no, no, and the stats prove that.

Josh Gilliland:

So we have kidnapped. Let's talk about Santa's. There's kidnapping of Santa, there's torture of Santa, and there's attempted murder of Santa. This shouldn't take long, but yeah, Santa's kidnapped. Put in a bag.

Kate Bridal:

They have a whole song about it. It's called Kidnap the Santa Claus.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, we're gonna call that a party admission.

Kate Bridal:

Yes, I would say so.

Josh Gilliland:

I mean, they they use the word kidnap in the song, they know exactly what they were doing.

Kate Bridal:

Kidnap some random guy. Kidnap this particular human being, yeah, or whatever he is, elf.

Josh Gilliland:

When Santa ends up in Oogie Boogie's lair, like he's strapped to a table. And there's like the spinning wheel, and there's like rolling dice, there's all kinds of like weird games of chance happening. Yeah, well, I we we have torture. Like we yeah, for sure. Sally comes in trying to save the day, also gets kidnapped because she's tied up. Yeah, nice having removable hands and legs, but that that doesn't go as planned. And then Jack comes in and we get into attempted murder, and like you raised the attempted murder issue. Can you explore it for us?

Kate Bridal:

Yes, so I think really the most compelling case of attempted murder is against Sally because he's jacking that table up and trying to pour her into the lava. And the only defense I thought of that he might have would be like, well, I didn't have the intent, necessarily the intent to kill her because I'm rolling the dice to see if the table is gonna go far enough to dump her in. But then he rolls snake eyes and he hits the table so that he gets 11, uh, so he can dump her into the lava. So I think there's it'd be a tough one to not say that he was attempting to murder her and she only survives because Jack jumps in and saves her. And then he is launching everything he has at Jack and having the little robots with the guns shoot at him and all sorts of stuff. And he does say uh very blatantly, you know, I thought I heard you were dead, you must be double dead, and then he hits the button and gets him going. So he's trying to obviously try to kill him. Yeah, if you can kill a skeleton, which apparently you can't in this universe.

Josh Gilliland:

So it's defense of others that Jack is doing because there's a life-threatening situation posed to Sally and Santa, and he goes in to save the day and does because that's that's what heroes do, and he also realizes whoops, which gets into the public response before part of Jack's redemption arc of going in like NORAD scrambles, right? You know, anti-aircraft guns are going off to shoot down the false Santa Claus. A country has its right to defend its airspace, especially from children who are getting harmed. So, yeah, I would say everything that that's a lawful use of military force to uh shoot down an active threat to the country.

Kate Bridal:

Yes, yeah. Well, and that's not even I was about to say it's interesting Christmas town has all that, but I forgot. That's like on earth, that's like normal time. They're going, they're visiting the US and other countries and doing that, and they're they're the ones shooting them down. I had a weird sign. I did not re-watch this because I was like, I know this forwards and backwards, which I still do pretty much, but there are a couple of nuances that I was like, oh right, delivering presents in Christmas town. He's delivering presents on earth, yeah.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, which is you know the portal connection between the two is not fully described, nor does it be. No, it is not um, and the other places are teased, and we don't go there because Thanksgiving could be super tasty.

Kate Bridal:

Or super racist.

Josh Gilliland:

Oh, no, I'm gonna. I just want lots of turkey, gravy, and mashed potatoes and stuff. And I think that's probably what it is. That'd be nice.

Kate Bridal:

Anyway, we oh, I do also have one more thought on because I hadn't even thought about the fact that Jack then does kill Oogie Boogie. But Oogie Boogie is kind of he's like a collective consciousness, it seems, of a bunch of little bugs. And so Jack dumps most of them in the lava by pulling on his string, but then Santa crushes the last one. So is Santa gonna have to defend himself against for killing a bug? Killing Oogie Boogie, though. It's his consciousness, right? He was a being made of all of these smaller beings. Has he as are we all really?

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, has Santa technically escaped at that point and the danger over?

Kate Bridal:

Or there's one bug left crawling at him, and he just steps on it, and then he gets very huffy and in control. So I don't know that he was feeling threatened at that point.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, um, maybe it's a warning.

Kate Bridal:

Shots fired by Santa.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, it's like and thinking of the South Park where red slay down.

Kate Bridal:

Right. Yeah.

Josh Gilliland:

Where Santa says, I just couldn't do it. I couldn't let him live. Is that what's happening here? So I don't know.

Kate Bridal:

He just seems kind of pissed off, honestly. He's just like, but I I don't you can't blame him. He was just kidnapped by the man. I do still think it's you know, he Jack was doing it in defense of others, and who knows if that one little bug could have crawled off at a reformed Oogie Boogie somewhere.

Josh Gilliland:

So Santa's had a needs like quality spa time because like I'm not quite sure if it's been a couple days that he was kidnapped and tortured. You could argue that Santa wasn't hankery or escaping being kidnapped and attempted murder, would might have been under duress and not thinking clearly when he crushed a bug.

Kate Bridal:

He's tied up on it. Can you imagine lawyers will really relate to this? What if you had a court deadline or a trial and you were kidnapped and tied up and you knew that it was continuing without you with someone completely incompetent standing in for you? That's like the ultimate stress dream for most people, but especially I feel like attorneys, especially. It's your one, it's your busiest night of the year, and this dude is keeping you from doing your job. Justifiable homicide right there.

Josh Gilliland:

Crush the bug. Yeah, it's uh no jury's going to convict. Because it's like when you when you think about planet Earth is in turmoil right now because of all of the horrific gifts that were dropped on children that arguably caused harm.

Kate Bridal:

I thought you were talking, I thought you were talking about real life, and even up until you were like, because of all the horrific gifts that have been dropped. I was like, uh-huh. Yeah, we are, we are in turmoil. I was like following along with you, and then you said children, and I was like, oh, he's talking about the movie. That's the state of the world right now.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, everyone's a little freaked out, and everybody needs a hug. It's like, yeah, again, rough time for everybody. So uh everybody's stressed, everybody's really stressed, right? With that slip. Again, there's forgiveness, like redemption. Uh, there are Christmas miracles. Because Santa's like, of course I can do this, goes out and does it because that's what Santa does. And there's a detente, and everyone plays nice at the end.

Kate Bridal:

So hooray.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, it's like again, Christmas miracle, which is like again the moral of the story that we're all supposed to get along and not be weird about it.

Kate Bridal:

Yeah, I want a t-shirt that says get along and don't be weird about it. That's the perfect thing I want right now in my life. Get along and don't be weird about it.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, again, it's the Bill and Ted Mantra. Uh yeah, yeah. It's uh just again, Bill and Ted rules of be excellent to each other.

Kate Bridal:

Exactly. We all need to everybody needs to watch Bill and Ted. That is healing.

Josh Gilliland:

It is. Go go have the Ziggy Piggy, like it's just go bowling, just learn to be cool to each other. Yeah, be groovy. That said, this is a groovy film. No, the soundtrack, I I don't remember what anniversary it was, but they you know, it's like Patrick Stewart reading the story.

Kate Bridal:

I am oh yes, and Fiona Apple does the Sally's song. Yeah, I have that. It's beautiful.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, very nicely done. But again, this is a again, it's a holiday classic spanning two holidays. Like Disney has it up for a quarter, so it goes up in September for the in the haunted mansions, like they'll keep it through Christmas.

Kate Bridal:

Yeah, well, that was Christmas is encroaching on Halloween now. I don't appreciate it. Like, there's already Christmas stuff. I'm like, it's not at least wait for Halloween to be done. We used to wait for Thanksgiving to be done. Do you remember those days?

Josh Gilliland:

I prefer those days because Thanksgiving's not a speed bump. So lame that I'm a mindset that you know Thanksgiving is truly established by President Lincoln during the Civil War, because his two proclamations are very meaningful about people you know giving stock in what they have. Uh the country was in horrific turmoil with what was going on with the bloodiest conflict in our history, by way of comparison. If we were to build a Vietnam memorial style uh memorial for those killed in the Civil War, it would be the size of 11 Nimitz class aircraft carriers stem to stern. 11 of them.

Kate Bridal:

If you've never seen an aircraft carrier, that is massive. One is massive.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah. Now imagine being 11 long. Like that's the number of people who died. And and with that, pressure and stress, and how Lincoln looks like he ages 20 years and four is you know the reminder of like what Thanksgiving's about. So Thanksgiving is not a speed bump between Halloween to Christmas, each are valid in different ways. Halloween's a ton of fun. Kids are dressing up, having the time of their lives. Go and trick-or-treat it. Like that's to me, that's what it's about. It's fun having candy and waiting and you know, seeing folks and celebrating it. There are people who do parties, there are people who like dressing up. There are lots of ways to celebrate it. Thanksgiving, great time with family, friends. I happen to love turkey. Like it's a really fun, you know, it's turkey and mashed potatoes and gravy. That's that's again, rock on. I suddenly want it. And then you get to Christmas. I also like turkey at Christmas, but I'm funny that way. Uh, all of those things are important, and it's it's like Thanksgiving's not a speed bump.

Kate Bridal:

It's a moment to check in with gratitude and whatnot, and you know, all those all those good things to it's getting harder every year the last couple of years, but you know, we're gonna find things of something.

Josh Gilliland:

Think about what those felt during the Civil War. Right. All of that aside, like, don't lose fate is, I think, the important lesson of don't give in, don't surrender, look ahead. And uh, because again, the country's been through stressful things before. Luckily, that has not included dangerous toys being dropped off by a skeleton man dressed to Santa, because who do you sue uh when that happens?

Kate Bridal:

So yeah, seriously.

Josh Gilliland:

That might be an interesting insurance claim.

Kate Bridal:

Oh, there you go. Yeah, yeah.

Josh Gilliland:

Is that an act of that somebody you invite like odd that we don't recognize you invited in someone to as part of a social contract by leaving out cookies and milk? You were good all year, you wrote a letter, you expected a nice present, and instead you get something eating the Christmas tree or chasing you down the hall. And the issue is what would a homeowner's policy cover that for injuries sustained? I don't know the answer to that.

Kate Bridal:

That is a good question, though. That's one to explore down the line.

Josh Gilliland:

Yeah, so that's a yeah, or go get a policy and see what that actually might entail because that's that's an I don't know. Is it covered? Step one, step one in reading an insurance policy. Look at what's covered. Yeah, step step two of reading the insurance policy. What are the exceptions? Don't skip part one. Super important. Do not skip part one. A lot of people do. Great.

Kate Bridal:

So theory, not legal, not technically legal advice.

Josh Gilliland:

Not technically legal advice. No, no, like that, but that's how I would approach it. I'm not saying there are others who reasonable minds can differ and they would figure out some other way. That's good advice. So, Kate, you mentioned your other podcast. Where can people find your other work?

Kate Bridal:

Yes. Uh, so I do have a podcast called Now It's Ruined. My best friend and I ruin everyday objects, people, events with dark history or facts about them. So we've ruined things like chainsaws, hammocks, gin and tonics, hello kitty. Uh, and we are doing a Halloween episode that is coming out October 22nd uh about Halloween candy. So get ready for that. Um and uh and that episode actually I learned that the first town wide celebration of Halloween in the United States was in Anoka, Minnesota. I'm from Minnesota. So fun fact for you to take out to your to your friends. We're like try and get as much history as we can in there, and it's a lot of fun. You can find it on any platform at Now It's Ruined. We are on Patreon, we're on Instagram, and I am on Instagram and TikTok at Bridal Party of Five, number of five.

Josh Gilliland:

So what year was that first Halloween?

Kate Bridal:

You know, I don't know that off the top of my head. I'm editing the episode now, but I don't I'm bad with numbers, so she might have told us, and I don't remember that, but I just remember it was a Noka.

Josh Gilliland:

It's okay. I'm cursed by remembering dates.

Kate Bridal:

So let's it's oh great, we'd be a good team because I I'll remember everything but the numbers in a fact.

Josh Gilliland:

No, no, I'm pretty good with dates. So all right. With that said, everyone, thanks for listening. Talking about Halloween is fun, and it because it's spooky season, and we just did a tick uh kickoff for Thanksgiving and Christmas, so that that's a little weird and new. But everyone, wherever you are, stay safe, stay healthy, and stay geeky. Take care.

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Joshua Gilliland

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