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Recorded Live at Fan Expo SF - Life Legally after being the Villain in Star Wars 

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We had an amazing time at Fan Expo San Francisco. Thank you everyone who attended our panel, had awesome questions, and fantastic discussion after our presentation. 

Life Legally After Being the Villain in Star Wars 

Crosshair, Alexsandr Kallus, Barriss Offee, and Asajj Ventress, are all former villains who abandoned being the “bad guy.” Are they forgiven for their crimes? How is their status as former Imperial or Separatists handled legally? Kallus committed war crimes on Lasats. Is he forgiven for genocide because he joined the Rebellion? Barriss Offee committed acts of terrorism, became an Inquisitor, and then abandoned the Empire to become a healer. Is she forgiven? Crosshair enacted brutal attacks on behalf of the Empire and deserted after seeing Imperial cruelty to his fellow clones. Is Crosshair forgiven for those he killed? Join us for a discussion on law, forgiveness, atonement, and redemption from Star Wars The Clone Wars, The Bad Batch, Tales of the Empire, Tales of the Underworld, and Star Wars Rebels. Presented by The Legal Geeks.

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Joshua Gilliland:

Show time. Sounds good. Hello everyone. How how is everyone doing today? You know, it's nice for lawyers to get applause. So my name is Joshua Gilliland. I'm one of the co-founding attorneys of the Legal Geeks. It is fantastic to be back at Fan Expo. I love having a local show that doesn't involve an airplane or uh driving six hours to Southern California. So it's awesome to see everyone here. And is this Mike Live? Alright, do I have to be on top of it? Oh, this is gonna be fun. Alright. With me is Michael Skeen. Michael and I are both lawyers here in the Bay Area. Yes, we are real lawyers. Is there anyone else? Yeah. Is there anyone else who's a real lawyer? Alright. Okay, we can have a group hug afterwards. So uh learn to live again. Okay, who here's curious about the law? Okay, we live in a country of laws, so and it keeps making the news. We're gonna talk about that. So, one of my big issues is I I like questions of faith, I like the law. So, what do you do with someone who's committed war crimes and decides, whoops, I made a mistake. What do you do with those individuals? Well, we have some historical examples. So after the United States Civil War, a lot of people were dead. If we make so the Vietnam Memorial has 58,000 names on it. If we were to make a similar one for all of those who died in the American Civil War, it would be as long as 11 Nimitz-class aircraft carriers. We only have 10 in service because the Fords are coming online. So uh President Andrew Johnson uh decided, you know what? Uh I'm a racist, I'm a mean person, and on December 25th, 1868, so Grant had been elected president but wouldn't get sworn in until March, Johnson on Christmas Day pardoned all the Confederates. And we still feel the healing impact of that today, because we have statues to traitors. Eleven states committed mass insurrection to nullify a presidential election for their self-proclaimed right to own other people as slaves. That's the American Civil War, and we have monuments to them.

Michael Skeen:

So military base is named after Confederates. Well, name changed, and now I guess it's named again.

Joshua Gilliland:

Yeah. Not something we want to idolize. So we learned from that experience, because all those start going up during the civil rights movement in the 1960s. Well, we learned from that experience for World War II. Because despite what someone in Congress recently said about how do I teach my kids about Hitler without looking at a statue of Hitler, there are no statues of Hitler. And if they exist, they're in a private collection. And you don't want to be friends with that person. No, no. So we decided to put on war crimes trials. And Justice Jackson on the United States Supreme Court took leave from the Supreme Court to prosecute those monsters. His opening statement was two days long. Of the original 24, the big ones, there's thousands of these guys that we do prosecute. But the big 24, 12 of them are sentenced to death. We hang 10 of them. Guring commits suicide the day before because no man's defeated me. And so he's a coward. So what do you do? Well, if Star Wars follows the same type of logic, they could do war crimes trials as well. Think of it as judgment at jacu. That you would have a model system of prosecution after the London Charter, which is what we use for the Nuremberg War crimes trials, four-panel judges made up of the Allied judges. And here are some of the basic key war crimes. Crimes against peace. You wage a war of aggression. Okay, sounds like the Empire. War crimes can include murder, killing of hostages, destruction of cities or towns, and anything not justified by military necessity. For example, Governor Tarkin could not say, I needed to kill everyone at Alderon to stop the terrorists. No. Alright? Crimes against humanity, and that's a long list as well of like, we don't want people to do that. And to get into genocide, that's when someone in a time of peace or in a time of war, with the specific intent to destroy an entire population, is guilty of genocide. So again, things we don't like because we're the good guys that liberate death camps. We're normally the heroes of the story. So let's talk about a live-action example from Star Wars. Kill them all, says Kylo Wren. And then his stormtroopers open fire and kill a whole bunch of women and children. That's a problem. And saying I have nice hair is not a good defense. So war crimes can include killing prisoners, uh people who are non-combatants, killing civilians, all those things are war crimes. And what Kylo Wren orders is verbatim what William Cali did at the Me Lai massacre, when U.S. troops went in and killed 500 civilians who were our allies in Vietnam. Now, he's prosecuted and ultimately convicted, uh, but then President Nixon starts getting about 500 telegrams a day saying, like, hey, it was really stressful in Vietnam that we shouldn't have him in prison. And so he only ends up serving three years and then goes to have life in Georgia as a jeweler and dies in 2024. So, what a you know, their defense was I was just following orders. That doesn't work. An order must be legal. An illegal order is repugnant on its face. You know it's illegal. Generally, someone saying kill them all is illegal. So here's a question for the audience. Is Finn a war criminal? You say yes? Okay. Anyone think yes? Anyone think no? Yeah, there should be more no's up. Um Finn doesn't pull the trigger. At the Melee Massacre, there was one dude who threw down his weapon and said, This is wrong. And if you watch the BBC documentary about Eli, you see him. And he was very animated in saying this was a no-no. There was a U.S. helicopter crew that stopped it. And the captain of the helicopter put his bird between U.S. forces and the South Vietnamese and told his gunner to shoot the U.S. soldiers if they tried to shoot the South Vietnamese. We should name bases after guys like that.

Michael Skeen:

Yeah, another interesting thing about it then was um thinking The Horse Awakens, you know, it was meant to guarantee that he didn't shoot anybody. Captain Phasma, after they get back to the ship, says, present your last super inspection. And at that point it's clear that he's basically gone against the programming, which is why they're. Oh, sorry. Anyway, well, so yeah, so Captain Phasma ordered for his gun to be checked because she suspected he didn't do anything. And so they figured out that he did not actually pull the trigger, which is one of the reasons why he wanted to get Poe to fly him off the ship. Yep. Um, among other things.

Joshua Gilliland:

So, in live-action Star Wars, people who realize I made a bad life choice and I want out normally die. It's like really quickly. Wouldn't it be fascinating to have a movie with one of those guys who made those bad life choices live? Wouldn't it be fun if we make Hunt for Ben Solo happen? Because what would that arc look like? Would you go like my mom and dad were heroes? I participated in a genocide. My bad. What did you do afterwards? How do you live? Well, we get a better answer in animation, but I'm curious if what they're doing in Ahsoka season two is if we're gonna get a post-death atonement arc for Anakin Skywalker. Episode five of Ahsoka with Shadow Warrior is like the beginning of that. So stay tuned. I think we're gonna get good stuff out of this, but what do you how do you live? More importantly, how do you spend eternity knowing that I'm in Jedi Heaven and I made some bad life choices? So, let's get into animation because there's a lot of fun stuff here. Now, Michael, what governments are we looking at?

Michael Skeen:

Okay, so we have the Galactic Republic, which is you know from the prequel era, and which got you know reorganized into the Galactic Empire, which got defeated by the rebellion, which then we create the new republic, uh, which I guess probably kind of falls in um The Last Jedi of Rise of Skywalker.

Joshua Gilliland:

Yep. So there's spoilers for a lot of animated shows, so just and they're all awesome. So let's talk about Baris Offie, who we see her in the Clone Wars, and she is absolutely ruthless. She's she's killing people, takes out a hanger, delivers the bomb through a person working on the flight deck, and then kills that guy's wife because she was the one who infected him with the explosive. She frames Ahsoka, she goes from good Padawan to bad. Then we get Tales of the Empire where she starts questioning, and then back to good. So it's a fascinating arc, but I think the like 15-year period between writing the stories, you see a big change. Because what were how much time was she in prison? And what life changes did she realize sitting in that cell with I made a boo-boo? So, we have a whole bunch of dead people. Like, she takes out a hanger deck. Okay, she starts murdering others. She said red is her color. She's embraced the darkness. We do get the first trial in Star Wars from this. Second is Andor. One and a half, because it's not on screen, is Ponsolo's court martial. It's a deleted scene. But we get the first trial in Star Wars and the Clone Wars. So she then joins the Inquisitors, and she quickly realizes I don't like this. Because the job interview is you guys have to kill each other. To her credit, she says, We don't have to do this. And it's her friend who says, Oh, yes, we do.

Michael Skeen:

Right. Yeah, well, it's uh they're given the choice of the Inquisitor, either you both die or one of you dies. And Dante, I think it's his name, he has seen Bull Warrant uh, realizing he only had one choice. Um, although, you know, was ultimately Sahupervey.

Joshua Gilliland:

Yeah, and again, what she does in that job interview is self-defense. She doesn't start the fight. She's like, I don't want to do this. I don't like where this is going. So she ends up having to defend herself to stay alive. And she does. But then she they they go on a mission, and the fourth sister kills everyone in a in a bar, leaves a child, and she starts going, This is not okay. And then they go out to murder a Jedi, and she's really going, no, and she makes a comment, will you have one more Jedi left, or something along those lines. She embraces back to being a Jedi. And then we get an unknown amount of time for atonement. This is sometime after the Kenobi series, because the fourth sister is in the Kenobi series, which is not uh 11 BBY, 10 BBY. So she's living on an ice planet in stress, which is why I think she's got bags under her eyes. You know, like that's a really rough lifestyle that will age you. So, but again, it's let's say eight, five years before the Battle of Yabin. Well, she actually helps redeem the fourth sister. What do we do with her? Michael, what are your thoughts? Should she be prosecuted? Should she get a big mull again?

Michael Skeen:

Well, I I think that uh it just depends on which government we're talking about. So we're talking about, you know, obviously the Galactic Republic, she was convicted for the hangar, sent to prison for life, um, then she got you know released by the Inquisitors to join the Inquisitors. So the Empire, well, once she betrayed the Inquisitors, then they would kill her. I mean and then under the New Republic, what they would do, I think, is I don't think they would have, you know, well, I'm guessing that the Empire basically wiped her slave as far as crimes go. And say, okay, well, you blew up a hangar, but we're forgiving you for that. You know, we're not gonna, you know, there's no legal repercussions. I have a feeling that the New Republic, they would probably look at that and say, wait a minute here. I don't think that that we can just sweep this one under the rug. And I think that in all likelihood, she could probably be ordered to basically resume her sentence. I mean it's kind of an interesting thing where you have, it's kind of like some of like with extradition laws, where like a country's not going to respect your extradition requests if it's not a crime in their country. And so in this case, I think looking at what happened, the new republic would probably respect the old Galactic Republic's conviction and would say, No, you're going back to prison.

Joshua Gilliland:

I think they would give her a pass. I think there would be prosecute prosecutorial discretion and them going, a lot happened. We spent a lot of time trying to remedy the situation. We're gonna give you a mulligan on this one. Not saying a pardon, not saying expungement. They're just not gonna prosecute. That's that's what I I think would happen.

Michael Skeen:

I still think it would be prosecuting. I guess it's what would be the act that they would point to saying that you know she's done some good since then that kind of balances the scales of killing, you know, Jedi, clones, civilians, and the hangar. And so I think you would you would need something to balance that and maybe redeeming the four sisters enough or whatever the fourth sister does. But I think that would be a hard thing.

Joshua Gilliland:

I think from what we've seen from the secondary material, I think there's a lot of forgiveness that takes place. I people like Dooku, people like the Emperor, no, they don't get they don't get a mulligan. But I think I think Barris does. Crosshair. He's my favorite out of all these because he's so wildly complex. So we have good soldiers follow orders. He he kills lots of people. So he's ordered by the Imperial Governor taking over uh D6 to kill their legitimate governor. And he does. He kills elite troopers. He then has a little war crimy issue where we have Saul Guerrera's people who they capture, and he has them all killed. That's a war crime. Absolute full-on war crime. So let's break down what he does. So, his watershed moment uh is with a clone named Mayday, and they go on this adventure and they're coming back. Mayday's hurt and needs medical attention, and the imperial lieutenant who's in charge of the base refuses to give aid. And Mayday dies in front of Crosshair. Crosshair does not handle this well and shoots the lieutenant. I'm thinking that's heat of the moment, passion, manslaughter, but if this was the new republic, they'd probably go, ah, good job. Umless Imperial to deal with. But, you know, he then ends up getting sent to uh Tantis, uh, you know, on uh excuse me, on Planet Wayland. He's tortured, lots of bad things are happening to him with involuntary medical experiments, and he starts talking with Omega. They then escape. And probably one of the most adorable mismatch buddy stories takes place, and it it's it's very heartwarming with how they work together and how they escape together, because he's the quintessential grumpy old man who's a really good shot. Well, we start seeing his arc and in the last couple episodes. Loyalty meant something to me, but with the Empire it didn't go both ways. I thought I was being a good soldier. I've done things, I've made mistakes. And he has the shaking hand because he's riddled with guilt about what he's done. And the last episode, we have this gem of Clone Force 99 died with tech. We're not that squad anymore. I've been inside that mountain. I know what we're up against. If we're all if we all go in, we're not all making it out. Omega needs you both. So I'm doing this alone. It's it's what I deserve. Do you think he's seeking redemption? Do you think he's realized I screwed up bad? Like this is full-on, I'm willing to go make the sacrifice because I deserve it. And Hunter, to his credit, no. No, it's like his brothers are, no. We're not doing this. So, shouldn't he be prosecuted? I mean, he shoots a governor, he's killed prisoners, he killed the elite squad, you know, he's killed Lieutenant Nolan. Michael, your thoughts.

Michael Skeen:

Well, I think that uh, you know, certainly gunning down, um, you know, I think the rating of the prisoners. That's a that's a huge problem. I think the killing the lieutenant, well, even even the New Republic might say, well, you know, you don't kill your own um superior officers. Even if we don't like who what he represented. And it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't it was more he killed him out of spite. It wasn't like he killed him because he was preventing him from doing some war crime or something. And so it might, but on the other hand, I think that part of it depends on what happens next. Because you remember at the end of the Bad Dash where we have, you know, Omega's off to go join the rebellion, and you know, Hunter says, if you need us, we'll be there. So you know they're gonna follow up on that. And so if we get another uh find out, you know, so a couple more of the rebel soldiers on Endor where Retcon and uh, you know, like Rex, you know, supposedly being on Endor. I think I think if he was there and helping out fight the Empire, I could see him getting a pass.

Joshua Gilliland:

There's some problems, but we have a lot of characters with some deep problems who are like, yeah.

Michael Skeen:

I do want to add one thing I do really find fascinating about the character was because they're all thinking it's he's got his inhibitor chip, which is making him basically do all this bad stuff. And then it was revealed that he had already had that chip removed, and it was like he was still cool with going and doing Order 66, and so it's a real, you know, fascinating story arc in the character.

Joshua Gilliland:

So let's get to Callus, or some people like to say Hop Callus. So alright. I I love this character because he is ruthless at the beginning of Star Wars Rebels. No problem being brutal. He's calculated, he's mean, we have the Les Siege of Les, but we talk about the Siege of Lason, he's killed Lasalle to the point of attempted genocide, and uh Vader orders him to go squeeze Tarkentown. Those are definitely war crimes. He's done bad things. And he starts realizing after, you know, and the enemy mind storyline with uh with Zeb, that they realize I'm not sure I like this. It's a brilliant storyline because they work together and we we see Callus as someone who respects the Lasats, which is why he's taken the weapon, he's like followed their cultural uh edicts. Uh but when he gets back to the imperial ship, he's all alone. Like there's no esprit de corps, like they don't hang out, they're not there for each other. And the rebels are a full-blown family. They actually care, they actually want people to live. They actually have agape and forgiveness, and they actually give a damn. And Callus is sitting alone in his bunk going like, I might have made the wrong call here. And it's one thing to be the Imperial who realizes, hey, I just wanted order after the Clone Wars. Like, I thought this was okay, and then they realized I just got ordered to kill civilians. This is not what I signed up for. So he joins the rebellion, and his arc to do so is slamming. He fights Strong hand to hand. Not many people live in Star Wars doing that because Thrawn is scary good with his big battle droids that he practices with. So we we have a couple quotes from him. So one was with Imperial Governor, the day your empire was portrayed, Governor, was the day self-betrayal finally stopped. And and just the the exchange with Thrawn, Thrawn saying, You have the heart of a rebel, Callus. I will take that as a compliment. When you think about the beginning arc with, you know, all fire on the Jedi, it's joking. And so, because he realized, wrong side, I'm putting my life on the line, because we're gonna stop this. Because I want to be the good guy. So, Michael, should the Republic prosecute Callus for what he did during the war?

Michael Skeen:

I think that uh, I mean, he certainly did, you know, the war crimes and everything is appalling, and I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff he did in ISB that is also appalling. But I think in this case, you know, he did, as Holcrum provided lots of valuable Intel and helped save a lot of lives, like on Lowfal and other places, and then also Polon joining the rebellion and basically doing what he was doing for that. I think that I think the Republicans would say, well, he's a bastard, but he's our bastard kind of approach to it. And I think that he would they would give him clemency because of the things that he did and ultimately, you know, really fight a great age of rebellion.

Joshua Gilliland:

Plus the hair, the lamb chops, you know, it's just and there are those who who ship Zeb and Callus. And I was asked about that if we would address it. So my thought is people will see what they want to see and what they need to see. Because that representation matters, but there's the the fact that have you not had a really good friend? But some people want to see that relationship, and if they do, that's fine. Now there's he might appear in live action played by uh Wyatt Russell, and if that actually happens, I think it would be very cool. So, but there's another element of Callus that mirrors US history. What we did with Nazis who were really good at math. Because they could make rocket ships. Why don't you tell us about Von Braun, Michael?

Michael Skeen:

Yeah, so uh he was part of the uh probably a rocket scientist, he was part of Operation Paperclip, which was this program, you know, basically, so in this case, it wasn't just space race, but in this case the space race to help. You know, basically we had these scientists that had a lot of knowledge and we wanted to use their skills. And we had the Cold War basically going on, the USSR had its own similar program of the Nazis that they captured. And so it was really about we want to get to space first. And so if there's certain skills that they have, it's kind of frightening how willing, two side of the rug we can be, and ultimately we're getting something out of them.

Joshua Gilliland:

Yeah, we realized as the war crime trials went on in Germany that we would have to prosecute all the Germans. And we needed the Germans to stand up to the Soviet Union, so we stopped. And we didn't do enough in Japan. So, my sense, when you murder 25 million people with swords, we should address that. And we didn't. Now, pivoting back to Star Wars, they clearly had their own version of Paperclip or were super lazy about it. Because you need middle management to run things. So in both Mandalorian season three and Ahsoka season one, we see slimy middle management that were formal imperials who are still loyal to the Empire. That's not good. Like, you need to actually vet people. If they're gonna put people to work, don't give them middle class jobs where they can make good money or hurt your infrastructure, or make sure that, oh, there's a pirate problem. Ah, we don't need to worry about that. It's okay, it's just rockets to jump galaxies to go get thrawn. Who cares? Lots of people do. So you need to actually have competent people and vet them accordingly.

Michael Skeen:

Yeah, well the program itself uh said some kind of dubious prospects. It's um, you know, because uh like that was the uh New Republic Ambassy program, which we saw in the Mandalorian, and it was not exactly uh wholesome. Uh very wholesome, you know, it didn't give me the you know the warm fuzzy feels, especially when they start doing lobotomies and you know, kind of killing them with kindness.

Joshua Gilliland:

Um you have to jump through a lot of hoops to give somebody a lobotomy. And they were just very laissez-faire about slicing up somebody's brain. So, not okay. The good guys aren't supposed to do that. Now, pivoting to Callus, he had lots of good and useful information. We find out after the war he does write a book. So, again, the Republic probably sees him as the example of the former imperial that they're not all bad, that there were those who realized this is wrong, and they switch sides. Like, you don't have a lot of historical examples of that, but it's fun to see the character being good. Let's get into Assage Ventress. So Tales of the Underworld with her arc is fantastic. Was anyone at Star Wars Celebration in Tokyo? Okay. They showed this. So you got to watch it with 5,000 of your closest friends. Best way to watch any of the animated stuff. They also showed the Siege of Mandalore in Japanese, which was a heads flip. But again, seeing people crying at the end, wow. So, Ventress. Fun character. So she's the commander, uh, she's Count Dooku's assassin. We see her being a very ruthless, effective general. She is very good at her job. She's also a creepy killer. Like, I never want to be stabbed. I don't know how I feel about getting kissed while stabbed. I really don't want to find out. Um but like that always went, whoa, that's not okay. Don't do that. First episode of Clone Wars, the Separatists and the Republic are, you know, trying to win favor with a planet. The planet decides to go with the new republic, and Count Dooku orders her to kill the king. She tries to carry out that order. I don't think that's a legitimate military target. It's a problem. But going on, I think the bigger problem is after Dooku tries to have her killed, because Palpatine says, kill her, because I don't like this, she goes back to the Night Sister, she gets wrapped up with them, they recruit Savage O'Press, and his final test is for him to kill his brother. She, Ventris, tells O'Press, kill your little brother. And he does. This is a problem. She becomes a bounty hunter. She stops child trafficking that's going to result in child marriage. So, Gold Star. That's something we should stop. Good. She eventually, after the Clone Wars, mentors Omega. She saves Kenobi from Maul and O'Press. She saves a young Jedi in Tales of the Underworld. So we're getting a little complicated character arc here. Which raises the question, is she a war criminal? And now we're gonna see point counterpoint. Michael, do you think Ventress is a war criminal?

Michael Skeen:

I do think she's a war criminal. I think for and it's not. I think, you know, obviously a lot of things that she did was just basically part of her fighting the war on the Separatist side. But she's she's basically Dooku's top assassin. And throughout the Clone Wars, it was clear that the Separatist planets, the Separatists, were going to do a lot of really shady things to try and get certain advantages forward. And so you technically may not have seen things that might be a war crime on screen, but as Chief Dooku's assassin, you know that he's ordered do things that are not, you know, military necessarily targets, or things to basically either to motivate or to punish for you know acts or not acts. And so, you know, I think it's for me it's similar to how I look at Boba Fett from Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi. You never actually see him do anything. But everybody thinks he's just like total.

Joshua Gilliland:

He looks awesome. But yes.

Michael Skeen:

He did ask Smart Han Solo. He figured out exactly what how Han you know was escaping from the Sard Store. So he gets that. But we never actually see him do anything, but he's had this huge reputation. And so that's one thing I love about Star Wars that there's all this implied history. And so in that, I think, looking at the implied history, I think she's absolutely a war criminal.

Joshua Gilliland:

I believe Assage Ventress is not a war criminal. I believe she has other problems. But in everything that we've seen from her, we do not see her order the deaths of civilians. We do not see her uh go against a target that's not a legitimate military target. Everything that she we've seen shows it's war. And because it's legitimate military targets, I do not think she is a war criminal. I think the issues are after she leaves the separatist government, is where we start getting into some problems. Because trying to kill Dooku, okay, you can say that's two nation states going at each other, because the head of state is a legitimate target. What the Knight Sisters do with oppress is a problem. But how much is I think this is one of the few times where you can have the dark side made me do it defense be effective. I don't think that's effective for Darth Vader, because you don't get to say that for 20 years I was snapping the necks of children.

Michael Skeen:

And yeah, and see this is another point we disagree on because I don't think there's such a thing as a dark side defense. I mean, one thing that is, for me at least with Star Wars, either going the path of the light side or the dark side, it's all about the choices that you make. And each choice brings you either closer or further away from the light or closer to the dark. And it's a series of actions that ultimately can result in a lot of horrific things. So I think that I think that uh the dark side may have inspired her to do it, but it's kind of like Obi-Wan says back in the New Hope. You know, the force partially evades your commands, but it also control you know, it partially controls your actions, but evades your commands.

Joshua Gilliland:

I also go on.

Michael Skeen:

So I think that, you know, rage killing a bunch of you know uh sand people, yeah, that's on you.

Joshua Gilliland:

Yep. I think it's a form of temporary insanity because the insanity defense is you don't understand the wrongfulness of your actions. And if you are so polluted by the dark side that you've all you've given into hate, and that's the religion that you've embraced, and you no longer think clearly, I think under those circumstances, for Sauvage oppress, I think that would be an effect of defense.

Michael Skeen:

Well, I'll give you heat of fashion and call it manslaughter.

Joshua Gilliland:

Yes. So the question is what about religious exemptions? Religious exemptions do not excuse laws of general applicability. So we have a law against murdering people. You don't get to say, look, it was my religion to commit that sacrifice. Like, uh-uh. Like it's still, like, we all have to drive 55 or 65. You don't get to say, I needed to go 90 through the school zone. Yeah. Because my religion said so. Or the Mandalorian saying, like, look, weapons are part of our religion, yeah, you still get a background check, dude.

Michael Skeen:

No, they're actually actual cases where I have people like saying, my religion requires I do not pay taxes. That doesn't get the very hard.

Joshua Gilliland:

Yeah, convenient. Yeah. Absolutely super convenient. So, but again, this highlights this is what lawyers do. Like, it's an adversarial system. Like, I'd be comfortable representing Ventress for a lot of the life choices she made, but not all of them, because there are some problems. Uh but there are others. It's like, yeah, I don't think she's a war criminal.

Michael Skeen:

Yeah, well, the interesting thing about uh but also Ventress, remember that um Ahsoka promised to uh go advocate for her to be pardoned based on her helping her out. Although, you know, that on its okay, she didn't do that. On the other hand, um, you know, to get the pardon, she'd have to go to the Chancellor, who is, of course, Palpatine, who is Darsidious ordered her execution. So it's not like that would get her very far.

Joshua Gilliland:

Well, that and Ahsoka made that promise before a lot of things happened. Oh, yeah. Okay, so we didn't know about uh Ferris, there was a lot of things that went sideways that would make uh uh executing that contract highly difficult because the facts don't allow you to carry it on.

Michael Skeen:

So from Assange's perspective, though, it's like, hey, come on.

Joshua Gilliland:

Come on. Yeah, so I kept you alive. Alright, so she dies and Dark Disciple when comes back. Michael, you you have some fun thoughts on what death does for the guilty.

Michael Skeen:

Yeah, well, you know, the question is, does her having died basically and coming back to life, is she forgiven of all her crimes? And um, we actually have a real life case of this. Um Benjamin Schreiber, who was having a medical procedure, he was serving a life sentence uh in uh prison, and then he had a medical procedure and ended up basically like having a heart attack. And even though he had to do not resuscitate, they resuscitated him. But he was technically dead for I think a minute or two on the surgery. So then he had a pretty clever argument, or clever by half probably, of um, well I died, I'm serving a life sentence, so I can go now. And um, and you can imagine we can get him anywhere. And they basically said, well, if you're alive, then you should be in prison. And if you're dead, then it's moved.

Joshua Gilliland:

You know, you gotta love the logic of this Iowa Court of Appeals. So Alright, question 10. Yes. Could you say that again, please? Do I think any of this applies to Marin from the Jedi Games? I don't know enough to answer that. So, but I'll look it up and we'll do a TikTok or a podcast to get into that, because I don't know enough the backstory. Yes. Wait, do you? No.

Audience Member 01:

Okay, so with the change in governments and with the uh ideals changing in each government, and then war crimes which apply no matter what government views, uh, that applies that there are universal laws that don't apply in or out of the government.

Joshua Gilliland:

So the question is we have changes in governments, but you still have war crimes being a universal constant. And the question is, are war crimes a universal constant? Post-1945, yes. Like we do have precedent from like the Rome Statute and Geneva Conventions about what's permissible or not in war. We've had countries refuse to sign on to them as well. Um there history will prevail on what is right because there are some universal truths. You don't get to murder people. No, the the Germans during the war crimes trials were not allowed to argue they had to exterminate all the undesirables to make Germany great again. They didn't get to do that because there's no defense to crimes of genocide. So, you know, they could argue mistake, you know, there's there are times where, like during World War II, uh I believe it was Colonel Jimmy Stewart, as in that Jimmy Stewart had to preside over a court martial where some of bomber pilots accidentally bombed, I think, Switzerland. It was a whoopsie-doo of they were they were in the wrong place. They misread the charts and they accidentally dropped the bombs on the wrong country. And again, acquitted, but again, like those things happen. So again, do I think they're universal rights? Yes. Yes, I do. I think murder's wrong. I think death camps are wrong. I'm pro melting Nazis.

Michael Skeen:

Right, but I think also to answer your question now.

Joshua Gilliland:

So the question is, could you prosecute a clone for war crimes if they don't have personhood? Well, in the uh fives arc, uh, that is uh quite the emotional gut punch, uh, you do get into some personhood issues. And when you think about a show for seven-year-olds gets into human rights to that level, that's brilliant. So I do think they have rights. I'm on the clone right side of the fence. And because you don't make disposable people. That's just just no. Like they have they those they're sentient, they have different personalities. So I would I would say they're people and they get rights, and the Jedi definitely go that way. Yoda goes that way. And the first episode of the Clone Wars.

Michael Skeen:

Yeah. But it's uh, yeah, I mean it is an interesting question. That's something I love that The Bad Batch dealt with, which is basically the war's over, what do we do with our clones? And um, and then you know, in Obi-Wan, you saw you know a clone trooper begging, you know, that Obi-Wan gave some money to. Um, yeah, it's a big, it's a big issue, and it seems like the Empire, you know, had absolutely no interest in taking care of them or treating them with any dignity, but I mean I think they absolutely should. And I honestly was interested for a while. I wasn't even sure if the clones get paid. But then, you know, there was that episode of Clone Wars where they're they got a clone bar, and so somebody's gotta be paying for the drinks. So it's an interesting question.

Joshua Gilliland:

Yeah, there's uh yes. So I I'm 51. So I was young in the 80s, and so I remember a lot of Vietnam vet stories and saying Vietnam vets were homeless. In South Bay there was a guy named Mr. Mountain View who was wandering the streets whose story was he was a Vietnam vet. And the treatment and the PTSD that they suffered, I I think is hauntingly mirrored with crosshair. And in being a tortured soul about what was done. Like I had a uh cousin who had five tours in Vietnam as a naval aviator, and out of the seven, and he was in the Navy's first attack helicopter squadron, where they got to test out the night vision goggles so he could watch the people he was killing. That haunted him for the rest of his life. So the treatment of those who have served is radically important to make sure that they have the care that they need for what they do in defense of our country, and in this you know, story of Star Wars, how the clones are treated is of paramount importance because people are not disposable. Yes, sir. So I heard, would you say Cassi and Andor? And you might really need to raise your voice after that. What? Would Cassie and Andor be charged with war crimes for rescuing Mon Mahma from the Senate? No, because we're now in a rebellion stage. He doesn't shoot any civilians. It's ISD and Imperials and that firefight to get out. Now Luthand does use some dark tools, so uh throughout all of Andor, but that's why Andor might be the best Star Wars that we're told. So, yes, ma'am. Uh you both had one case. Pardon me? What do I use as the basis of the morals that I'm discussing? A lot from the London Charter, a lot from the Geneva Convention, a little from the Rome Statute. So, again, all of the things that we use to define war crimes and the rules of war for, you know, no one should give the order, kill them all. Give no quarter, that's a war crime. Yes. What are my thoughts on Luthin for what he has to do? Well, the the monologue from season one is hauntingly beautiful and an incredible gut punch of uh I will burn my decency for tomorrow I will never see. Yeah! Like, that's what he had to do. And I would have expected him to have like a better exit plan. That like for his informant in the ISB that there would have been a plan. Like, their plan was to die. Like, that's not a good exit plan. That's not good for morale. So, but uh I love Luthan. Radically complicated, brutal, and willing to sacrifice people in order to maintain cover. Like, those are all the hard choices. Cassing Andor murders dudes multiple times. Legally justified? No. Tactically the right decision? Yes. And that's why it's a dark, complicated character, and why his decision to go, yeah, let's go to Scaraph. We're probably gonna die, but it's the right thing to do. It's fascinating.

Michael Skeen:

Right. No, it's it's it's and it's another character where it's a shame that he died, because now we can't see how he reconciles like a, you know, especially in the new republic, you know, with what he did. Because like him and like Sagarrare both did like very questionable, um, whose side is really, you know, who are the good guys here? Um, that it's kind of like, you know, it's just kind of means type tactics that you know they can say, well, this is what we're left with doing, but it's still it's it's it's a challenge to reconcile how you deal with that.

Joshua Gilliland:

It's it's one thing to go, we want the war and everything's over, so we can be comfortable in these decisions, as opposed to have your back against the wall and you're hiding in your basement hoping you don't get killed. And so, like, those are we're comfortable here. There might be horrible things happening in our country right now, but we're safe. There are others who are not. How are they living? What are they feeling? And how do we help?

Michael Skeen:

Yeah, I mean, my guess is that in the Star Wars universe, I don't know that Lisa Noble necessarily be very well remembered by historians at all, but he doesn't care. I mean, he's doing it for you know the greater good.

Joshua Gilliland:

The sun rose again. Others get freedom. He doesn't, and he knew that cost.

unknown:

Yeah.

Joshua Gilliland:

That's why it's a brilliant character.

Michael Skeen:

And he hated.

Joshua Gilliland:

Yeah. And like he knew what he was doing. He'll stabbed himself. Do you have any idea how hard that would be to do? And it wasn't like an easy way out. It was, no, I'm gonna do this. Ow. Don't try harming yourselves. Please don't. Please don't. Alright, so we'll be back tomorrow, I think, at 1 o'clock for uh cult movies from 1985. It will be in 2022. There'll be a lot of Better Off Dead, Goonies, Back to the Future. Uh, you'll you'll know that I was 10 or 11 when those things came out. So yeah, I've I have very fond memories. Michael does too. Oh yeah. I won't out him. But uh yeah, so gear up and thank you all. We'll hang out over there. I don't know the next panel, but we don't want to take up their space while they get ready to present.

Michael Skeen:

Yeah, thank you everyone for attending that.

Joshua Gilliland:

Thank you.

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Joshua Gilliland

Host