We finish up our discussion with Margaret Dawson by discussing what it means to be a leader in tech, woman or not. Margaret's passion for people in the midst of the most technical of topics is refreshing and informative. We also talk about Margaret's passion project, Snort Out Loud where she is helping others to be exactly who they are by letting their light shine. True for anyone in any role, but certainly a relevant topic for being a woman in tech. Join us for this intriguing and hilariously real conversation!
We finish up our discussion with Margaret Dawson by discussing what it means to be a leader in tech, woman or not. Margaret's passion for people in the midst of the most technical of topics is refreshing and informative. We also talk about Margaret's passion project, Snort Out Loud where she is helping others to be exactly who they are by letting their light shine. True for anyone in any role, but certainly a relevant topic for being a woman in tech. Join us for this intriguing and hilariously real conversation!
You are listening to the, You are techY podcast with Ellen episode number four.
Intro:Welcome to the you are techy podcast where it's all about growing in your techy-ness so you can find the tech job of your dreams. And now you're host technology learning coach, Ellen and Twomey.
Ellen:I want to know what it means to be a woman leader in technology.
Margaret:I struggle with that question a little bit. I get asked that a lot and I, I think, I think the reason I struggle with it is I, I don't think of myself first as a woman leader, if that makes sense. Um, I mean, I think of myself as a woman, as a mother, as a wife, et cetera. But you know, in my job, I am a leader, right? Right. And I think that sometimes we over pivot, Oh, she's a woman leader. It's like I'm a leader. It has nothing to do with my gender or you know, what I'm doing. And, and, um, I think the more we think about diversity and inclusion and leadership in a, in a way that, um, focuses on the traits that we needed in leadership, there will naturally be more diversity, if that makes sense. Right. So we talked about, cause I think about leadership all the time. So regardless of the fact I'm a woman, I, over the last few years, probably 10 years, I have read voraciously and are constantly testing my own theories of leadership. Um, and I think that there is power and if you look at the most impactful leaders, and I'm not aligning that with revenue necessarily, but just leaders that inspire people and make people better, you know, and make the world better. Yeah. There is, you know, there's, there, there's something about a combination of their, their experience with some kind of, with a level of humility or self-awareness, right? There's, you know, you've seen boastful leadership and, and there's an ugliness about it, even if they are incredibly successful financially. Um, and so the question I'm constantly thinking about is I am a true believer in capitalism. Like, I believe in the free market system, but I also believe in compassion. So it's like why does capitalism and compassion have to be, you know, neutral, exclusive or counter-intuitive, right? Why can't those go together? Right. And there's a great book called designing reality. I think. I'm pretty sure it's designing reality and it's, it's uh, three uh, gentlemen who are academics and scientists. Um, I think it's a father and two sons or father, uncle and son, but they have this phrase called a bottom, a double bottom line company. And I love this term because I think it captures what I'm trying to say is that to be a double bottom line company is you are focused on financial return, right? And, and driving financial excellence with compassion so you can take care of people while still being successful. And I, and I wish that we did that more and I actually spoke recently at a conference in Europe and I said, how do we all think about becoming bottom double bottom line companies? What would that look like? You know, going back to our earlier question about human connection, right? That means you are putting human connection and financial success, you know, at an equal place on, on, on the scale. Right? Right. So I think we need to look at leadership across many areas, strategy and vision, operational excellence, you know, setting goals of success, holding people accountable, driving to those numbers, but also the, the empathy, the compassion, right? So there's, there's these multiple factors and, and the reality is to be a great leader means you've got to have all of those things, not just one. And then you've got to know which lever the turn up or down, you know, depending on the situation. But you don't get to just be an operator or just be, you know, strategic. You've got to bring together all these different pieces and that's why leadership is and should be very hard. Um, and it should be earned, right? Because you've got to, those are muscles. You've got to develop all those muscles over time. Um, but then I will say as a woman who happens to be a leader and a leader in technology, I feel it's my responsibility to empower every other woman or empower anyone. You know, supporting people to fulfill their dreams, you know, figure out their career path, um, you know, driving greater experience and expertise, you know, living those core values of leadership and humanity. You know, I feel that I have a, uh, maybe that additional layer of responsibility as a woman and I really want to be both a role model for other women looking either go into deck or to be successful in tech or in business. Um, you know, and, and modeling behaviors and I guess, um, you know, expectations that, that help other people see that it's possible. Right. One person said to me that at the time I thought it was a funny thing, you know, like they had just read lean in by Sheryl Sandberg and they said, and then they had, I had spoken at a conference where they were and they said, you made it seem so much more accessible because you're real, like you're not so far removed from where I am that it feels unattainable. And you could take that two ways. I, at first I thought, okay, so I'm a leader but I'm not really great. Like, I haven't run a huge company. So, you know, I'm like a half-assed leader so I can, you know, I can see myself doing that. It's not what she meant, you know? But again, that's our inner voice, right? It's like, wait, did I just get dissed in this compliment? I'm trying to, but I get what she means. I think it's powerful because it means that all of us make an impact on someone else. Right? Everyone is, has the potential to be a role model. Everyone can inspire someone else. You don't have to be a Sheryl Sandberg. And in fact, people like Melinda Gates or Cheryl Sandberg are really important role models. But for most people it just seems so unattainable. Yeah, I agree. Right? Uh, whereas you and I, and everyone that's listening to your podcast, they can set goals that someone else can look at and say, wow, I just want to do that. Yeah. And you make it feel like I can do that. You made it feel real. You made it feel possible. And so that to me is what it means to be a woman leader in technology. Right. That I, if I can make it seem possible for anyone and an accessible and reachable, that that's powerful. It doesn't mean I haven't been successful. I need to think about that as being, that means I've been amazingly successful because if that means that two or 20 or 200 more women you know, will think they can do what I did and achieve it and do it, that's the, to me that's the ultimate value or you know, being a woman leader. I love that.
Ellen:I totally agree. And in our Facebook group, I challenge people to find a mentor in today, right now before you feel ready. I'm always pushing people to do that because absolutely you don't even know you, you can just, you can know such a small amount and still be ahead of someone else. There's always someone else.
Margaret:Um, so I always tell people mentors don't have to be more experienced or older. And the example I always give is there was this young woman, I think she was 25 at the time that I was. I am working with a company doing social media analytics, and I always consider myself pretty smart. I knew big data really well and I thought I knew social media really well. And this girl, this woman was amazing and we were arguing about Instagram and I was just saying, you know, and this was like 10 years ago. I was like, nobody uses Instagram. I'm so sure. Like, and she goes, really? She goes, well, I'm going to do a webinar on Instagram. I'm like, I don't think that's our target audience. It was a B2B solution, right? Yeah. And so she goes, okay, so if I get 500 people on this webinar, well you listened to me and helped me set the strategy and put this plan in place around doing more with Instagram. And I said, sure. Yeah, go for it. 500 people. Okay. She got 600 people on this webinar. I listened to the webinar and she was, I was blown away. I mean, people were just like, Oh, guru, tell us the world. Right. So literally, and we were in two different studios, but we can look at each other. Right. While we were doing this. So the webinar finishes and I'm just sitting there and she looks over and I just was like, slow clap. It was just like, Oh my God, I will never question you again. I'm like, put that strategy plan in place. You are, how much money do you need? Like either, and she was awesome cause she, she didn't patronize me, you know, but she didn't have to write. It was like I tried to tell you. So it's a learning of, you know, not only did she then taught me a ton and mentored me through, you know, learning all this about social media. But beyond that, it was that learning of don't ever assume that someone younger or less experienced or from a different culture, a different perspective. Can't one teach you something or two doesn't have amazing value and you're just, you're, you're assuming they don't just because of some, I dunno, bias that you have. Right. Unconscious or conscious. Right. And so she taught me so much, you know, and I could, I, there's probably a million examples of that, but that one really stands out because she was just so ready to take on the challenge and it was awesome.
Ellen:Fantastic. I love that story. I, I have a few more questions, but we're a little over on time. Can you snag, can we snag a few more minutes? I want to be respectful of your time.
Margaret:Okay. I'm good.
Ellen:All right, I'll, I'm, I, and also I just want to say I really appreciate your response to that question. Women, a woman leader in technology and I struggle even asking and I know people want to hear that, but um, I'm going to be thinking a lot about whether that's a question to even ask because I think, and I've heard this from other women who have been in leadership before and, or for a while, and they're just tired of that question. It's like, okay, I've been a woman for years, for decades. I'm over this.
Margaret:Still important. Yeah. And maybe the question is, you know, what does it mean to you to be a leader? So maybe that's the first question and then there's, do you feel an additional responsibility or is there something more that you think you have to do because you're also a woman in leadership and I, cause those are two different questions, right? Cause fundamentally when we do our job day in, day out, you know, we're trying to be a good leader or a good role model or a good employee or a good client or whatever it is. Right? There is absolutely this added layer of, okay, I was going to say just responsibility, but frankly it's an added layer of challenge. It's an added layer of um, pain. It's an added layer of a lot of things I think because we also happen to be a woman. Right? And I can't even imagine what's the layer on top of that would be if you were also transgender or you know, one of these other kind of diverse populations that have to add one more thing just to get through the noise. Right. And so we can't underestimate the challenges women face. In fact, I was just writing another blog post about trying to share some women's stories cause I think that we can't stop telling those stories because the reality is women are still leaving technology and are still leaving companies because of the challenges that women face. Right? There is still gender inequality. There is still the boys club. So I don't want to make it sound like we fixed that. Right. And that's not my intent. And, and every single day I face this head on, right? It's, it never goes away. But the more we can continue to show that, you know, we as humans are great leaders regardless of our gender or race or background or whatever, you know, the more we will stop having to have this conversation. But it's such a, I don't know, such a dichotomy and just a constant challenge, frankly. How much distress it
Ellen:A lot of, um, a lot of what my audience, they, the interview process is this overwhelming surmountable. They're like, I haven't been on an interview in five years or, you know, just getting out of that or a technical interview. So one of the things I like to do is ask guests about like what do you ask in an interview so that there can be this comfort of like, Hey, I've thought about this or this is what real leaders in technology are asking. Do you have a question or two that you can share with?
Margaret:I do. I have a few actually. And I think about this a lot because at the end of the day, what I have learned is people can learn to do, smart people can learn to do almost anything. Right? And what I would say in general to those women is there's been research to back this up and I'm sure you've seen this where we as women have this issue that we won't apply for a job unless we think we're 100% qualified, right? And men apply when they're 50 or 60% but what I would say to you is like right, one, why are you applying for a job that you have 100% qualifications that would be the most boring job in the entire world, right? So first I challenge every one of you. If you have 50% of the qualifications apply for the job, I'm going to assume you're a smart person and you can learn the other 50. And that will be the fun part, right? There's foundational things that are cultural dial, you know, desire to learn that I care a lot more about, right? Um, because if you hire a bad cultural fit, that is a lot more painful than hiring someone that doesn't know, you know, how to write code in Python or I don't know, like, you know, it, there's just a bigger issue. If they don't fit in and the damage that a toxic person brings. And I speak from experience, it will take months for you to clean that up. Where is the train zone in a new skillset? May or may not take months. It may take weeks, it may take days, and if it takes months, at least you've got a person that you love being around and that is a great team player in there. They're adding value in the meantime while they're trained. So I just want to state that up front. Um, but some of my favorite, uh, questions that have nothing to do with the job is, um, I ask about, you know, what's the last book you downloaded? Um, and that tells me two things. One is it'll get them talking about books they read, but I also specifically use the word downloaded because I actually want to know if they use a Kindle or an iPad or are they going to say, Oh, well I like to read my books in a hard copy. Like you get a whole bunch of information in a really simple question. Um, and so like a lot of companies will have questions that almost like it feels like a double bind. It's like, ah, I didn't download a book. How do I answer that question? Right. Don't overthink it. Just say, actually, that's an interesting question on two fronts. One is, you know, I, I prefer reading my books and paper and I'm happy to discuss that if you're interested. And currently I have three books on my night, you know, on my, um, on my nightstand, uh, because I like to read a fiction book. I'm a nonfiction and a business strategy book. You know, for me, what I say is, Oh well I just downloaded four books cause I happen to be on an airplane and I was having a conversation and in the course of the conversation, you know, this guy next to me brought up all these books so I immediately went on my phone and down but at them or whatever it is. But I love asking that question cause you just, it could end up taking you in a whole different place and have a really interesting conversation and the person gets off their interview podium, right? You, you, you distract them from. So same thing. I'll sometimes say, you know, what's one of your favorite songs of all time and why, or what was the last song you downloaded? So same thing, like you can kind of do that. Um, I've, I've started asking the question of what is your personal why? And sometimes they don't understand that, like I'm really into like, what is your why? And this came out of this book by Simon Sinek. Um, but if they don't understand what that means, I rephrase it and say something like, you know, what is your reason for being? Like, why are you on this planet? And then I follow that up with saying, well how does this job help you further that why, like how is this helping you be why you were here? Mmm. And that's very philosophical. But again, I want to get them out of telling me that they, you know, graduated top of their class and you know, I want to know something deeper about this person. Um, and then a fun one in the technology industry, I always ask star Wars or star Trek and why? Because it makes them laugh and you know, and it says a lot cause they have to say why. Um, and if, if you work in technology, there is a constant, a debate about star Wars or star Trek. And then the star Wars, they usually say, well, which one are we talking about? Well, for both they could say that like, you know, which, which generation. And so then you get into a whole key conversation about that. So those, I mean those are some that I, I like to add to the general interview, if that helps. I don't know if that helps or not.
Ellen:It's great. And it gives a lot of insight as to, you know, the range that you can expect. Um, Oh yeah. This next question I want to ask you, it's kind of a boring question, but the answers are always really great, which is why I keep asking it. It's what do you love best about what you do and then what do you find most challenging?
Margaret:Oh, what I love. Well, I learned something new every day. Right? Um, what I love about this job is I am a curious person by nature and I love the fact that I can't think of a day where I'm not learning something and I need that. Like, I, I thrive on that. And you know, I'm at, as an organization, we are constantly at the forefront of technology and change. You know, where things are going. So that, that's part of it. Um, I love working with customers. Uh, one thing I love about my job right now is I meet with a lot of customers and we brainstorm big, big issues and hairball problems that they're trying to solve. And I am just, I feel pretty just grateful that I'm even allowed in that room sometimes, right. With CEO's or these architects and you know, we're, we're talking these really complex problems, um, with governments and huge organizations and industries. Um, and part of that is I get to work with people literally all over the world, you know, from all different backgrounds and, you know, both within red hat as well as customers or, um, you know, all of that. And, and I think if I was to make it personal, I do feel that what I do with red hat and what I do, you know, personally and professionally, that I'm making a positive difference in people's lives and careers. Like I feel not every day when I stepped back, I, you know, yeah. I feel like, okay, you know, I'm moving forward on my own personal why and I'm, I'm helping other people be successful, which is, you know, I, I think like we should all make it so that if we got hit by a bus tomorrow, we've created an organization around us that is successful and people step up and step in. Right? And so I feel like I've done that. Um, and I feel like I can have a direct impact on my company's success. I need, and I'm wired that way. Like I want to know I'm making a difference. If I don't, I start to, you know, just feel de-motivated. Right. So, uh, challenging is probably, you know, fairly stereotypical. I hate politics. I hate power plays, they drain me. Um, it's really hard balancing strategy with execution and getting those both. Right. Uh, I, I think also probably, I probably put the biggest challenge on myself. I have a really high bar I set for myself and my team. Um, so, you know, performing at that level all the time is hard to do. And I, you know, no one does, but giving myself a break and, um, I'm much more compassionate with other people than myself at that. Uh, and I think probably the other biggest personal challenge, and this is feedback I've gotten my whole life and I'd like to think I've got better, but I know I still forget this sometimes, which is just to slow down and make sure everybody's caught up with me. I tend to be very fast moving. I know that one. Well, can you share any, sometimes I forget what my Myers-Brigg says about me, but they, there's some great phrase in any of these personality, you know, things that always says the same thing about me, which is I am super fast to learn something, love new ideas, innovative, you know, always like finding that challenge and going and there may be just crap behind me that I left behind. Not to mention an entire team sitting there going, wait, where is she now? What's going on? Where, so it's slowing down and saying, Hey, here's an idea. What does everyone think? And letting the process people process it and all of that. So, yeah, I'm not sure that's my job. I think that's just, you know, but I find it challenging because I'm just, I just want to go, go, go. I have a bias for action and you know, new ideas and you know, not everyone moves that way. And so no, part of that is everyone needs to feel like they're on the train with me and I'm not just, you know, the engine's not separated from the rest of the cars. I'm just going off a cliff. Right? That's some of the things I need to work on. Whatever tips you have in that realm, um, take those constant self-awareness, like slow down, let everyone get cut up, and then go to a quiet place and scream and get it out and then go back and then go back. All right. I want you to tell us about snored out loud. Where does the name come from? What is the mission and what are you trying to do? This actually started five years ago with a presentation I gave to about 500 women in tech leaders. And it started as a hypothesis that my theory was we weren't seeing enough women in tech and, or women leaders in tech because we weren't being true to ourselves, that we were getting so much input and continually feeling ourselves shrink that we just, one didn't see that we could even make it in tech or two, we're having to be something else to be successful. And we were just losing what I call our true light or in herself. Right? So I started calling this letting your true light shine and then I added snorting out loud because when I laugh, I snort. And uh, it freaks people out every time. Um, especially if it's like a really big snort when, which means someone really made me laugh or it's surprising, but I can't tell you how many times when I start, people go, Whoa, what was that? Holy cow. Like it just literally freaks people out. Um, and over the course of my career, you know, there were two things I always heard. Stop swearing. Stop being so loud. You're too passionate. You're too, like, okay, so just stop being yourself. Just please stop being yourself. And then it was always like, why do you snore it like stop it that it's weird, like it's or it's horrible or I don't like it. Or like it was all these things or it's like it's not even, it's so not feminine and you sound like a freak. And it was just amazing people's reactions to this. Like why do you care? Like I snore it when I laugh, who cares? Like I don't understand. And so the snorting out loud part just became my metaphor, I guess you could say for being true to yourself. And so it turned that first presentation where I tested this theory and the first question I asked this group of women is, how many of you have asked, who am I? Every hand went up in the room and I was like, Oh, okay. Wasn't expecting that. And then the next question was, okay, how many of you ask, why am I here? Every room, every arm went up in the room. And I was like, okay. So this is kind of just built. And now I've given this presentation, I dunno, dozens of times. And it's evolved each time and the platform has evolved and it's gone from a hypothesis to just this passion project of mine. And what I've learned is it's not just a woman issue, it's not just a women in tech issue. It is a universal human phenomenon that we are born perfect. We are born with being who we are. You know, we let our true light shine. Like think. The thing I always say is think of a, a child around three years old, they don't know how to be anything but true to them. Right? They let their light shine every day and it can be annoying or it can be beautiful. It doesn't matter. Like they are just all in. Right. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like picture when are children when they were, yes. I mean, I, you know, I, I give the example of there was this little girl, we were on vacation at the beach and there was this little girl, she was probably four and she literally created this entire game by herself where she scooped up sand, threw it in the air and then with sing this song that, you know, I love you to the moon and the stars and the laid back home. And then she do this sand thing again. And her dad comes over at some point and says, stop throwing sand. Like why are you doing that? Stop throwing sand. So this is a pivotal moment, right? Because this is almost an example of the input. So I say, you know, over the course of our life and it gets really intense around nine or 10 where everyone seems to have an opinion of what we should be and not be. And many times it has best intentions, right? And his absolute best intentions. But what happens is it starts to limit our vision of who we are and what we are capable of. And it's like, if the world in our boundaries is, is, you know, huge and, and almost unlimited by the time we're 12 it starts to do this and we just get narrower and narrower and narrower and little things like it could be, Oh, you don't need to take the hard math class. Why don't you take home economics? Which was what someone told me at 12 years old, Oh, you don't have to do this or, no, our daughter's not going to go in the gifted program because we think she needs to be with her friends or it doesn't matter. Or, Oh, our family is bad at math, or Oh, girls don't like science. It doesn't matter what it is. Right. Um, and it can be something that you don't even realize. And I'll tell you that it's interesting talking about this with parents, especially fathers of daughters, especially fathers in tech that have daughters. Because as soon as I start sharing this and the, you can see every face in the room goes, Oh shit, I do this. And you don't mean to, you don't mean to, you think you're do being loving. You think like when you say to your daughter, Oh, don't cut your hair, you're so much more beautiful with long hair. What are you telling your daughter that you don't even know? Yeah. Right. And so that's nice. So what does this evolved into is, you know, stored out loud is now stored out loud.com and I've started blogging, so you can go to snortoutload dot com and you can, you know, read my latest rantings. Um, but I think some of, and I'm ready to book Paul pouring out loud and letting your true light shine, or at least that's my working title. Um, and, and the, the website is really me trying to find my voice for this book, right. Where it's been an interesting journey. And, and I had this, this wonderful author who I worked with that said, the key to bringing people into your story is not telling them, but showing them, like, invite them in. So as I look at the posts, and I've, I've written a lot already in the last few months, is my early posts are very much like in education mode, in journal, in, in journal. Uh, journalism mode, right? Like I'm being a journalist, like, here's, here's my report on this situation, you know, and, and it reads like that, whereas the last few, and what I'm trying to do now is create scenes and tell human stories that support my thesis or my, my learning or what I'm trying to share and then go into, you know, this is how it's impacted me and this is, you know, here's some things I think we could do to change the situation. So it's, it's a subtle but really powerful difference and it's, it's really helped me think about things in a new way and, and sharing my own story, sharing other people's stories. And at the end of the day, you know, it's trying to fulfill my personal why, which is I think I am here to help other people, you know, rediscover and shine their true light, uh, and just fully be themselves and whatever that is. And, and I think that if we are true to ourselves and learn what our inner light is and then really shine it on the world, that's when we are ultimately successful. Even if that's just being a great mother, right? How do we teach our children to just, you know, be true to themselves and follow their heart and, and shine their light and just keep passing it on. That's beautiful.
Ellen:Thank you so much. I think you're doing a great job with it. I read your latest blog post and I got a lump in the throat and it's not even a personal experience of mine, so I think you're doing a great.
Margaret:Yeah,
Ellen:I know exactly what you mean. I've been blogging for a few years and I think I'm going to take some from you and I'm trying to do that, but I, I you, you're a great example of it, so I think that's great. So people can find you at snortoutloud.com where else can they find you?
Margaret:@SeattleDawson on Twitter is a great place or snort out loud on Twitter. So we're building out social, um, accounts on all, you know, Instagram, going back to Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. So snort out loud, you know, is becoming the platform and over time, you know, I will do more of that. And less of my day job. So that's, that's my ultimate goal is to do that full time. Write my book and speak. Um, but you know, the website also, you know, connects you to all those social profiles and, and more about me and whatever. I would be grateful to have more people join the conversation.
Ellen:Margaret Dawson, thank you so much for being here today.
Margaret:Thank you. It's been fun.
Ellen:Hey, if you enjoyed listening to this podcast, you have to sign up for the You are techY email list. Imagine being in the tech job of your dreams. Join me to get the strategies training and never ending support to get hired. Sign up at youaretechy.com. That's why, Y-O-U-A-R-E-T-E-C-H-Y dot com. I'll see you next time.