084 UltraMarathon Training Tips from Backyard Ultra World Record Holder Phil Gore

If you are a runner, or have been curious about what mental and physical training looks like for Ultramarathon runners, then you don't want to miss this episode! This episode is full of Ultramarathoner Phil Gore's race training tips that will help you with your mental training and hopefully inspire you to take that jump into training for an ultramarathon in the future!

In this episode:

✅Phil's journey into the world of Ultramarathons and Backyard Ultras
✅Mental barriers that elite distance runners face
✅Phil's daily training plan and race day training tips
✅Actionable tips to help ease the anxious runner brain
✅ What to do when your body wants to quit in a race
✅ How to take control of your mental game

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Kerri,
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FOLLOW PHIL GORE: @Philgore.ultrarunner

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Transcript

Hi, I am Kerri Bicskei,  professional athlete, licensed therapist and mindset coach. I created ReadySet Mindful as an online mental health resource for athletes and high performers like you. And this is the ReadySet Mindful Podcast.

Before we dive into the podcast. If you are an athlete who struggles with anxiety struggles with overthinking, make sure to get our free checklist for athletes over to readysetmindful.com from. From warrior to warrior, that's going to really help you out.

And I'm so excited to announce our course is going to be launching soon, the common, confident athlete from warrior to warrior. So if. If that's something that you're interested in go ahead and jump on the wait list again head over to
https://www.readysetmindful.com/. let's get into the episode!

  I am so pumped to have my guest today, , all the way from Australia. We made the time zone connection to work. , he's an Australian endurance athlete, men's backyard, ultra world record holder, , the amazing Phil Gore.

So excited to have you on the podcast. Welcome. 

Welcome, Phil. Hi.  Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. 

Yeah, so excited to just pick your brain and ask you. So many questions about, that race and your background and all that fun stuff. So, , thanks for making the, time zone work.

I know it's, , it's later for you. I don't know what time, what time do you usually go to bed? It's like seven 30 for you, right? 

Yeah, it's, it's seven 30 here now, so yeah, I'll probably go to bed around 10 30, so it's not too late for me. 

Okay. You're not terrible. Okay. When we were trying to make, just to let people know we were trying to make, uh, our schedule work too.

I was like, oh gosh, I go to bed at eight 30, so I'm like a total grandma. It's like my, my sleep routine. So I'm like, okay, if we can make the me in the morning, I'm, I'm good. Like at seven 30 at night for me, I'd just be like, totally wrecked. So I'm glad that we, you go to bed at 10 30, so you're a normal human.

That's great. Yeah. Thanks for making it work. Yeah. You're bringing me back. I went to, I went to school at, uh, did my graduate degree at University of East London and I went to school with like a bunch of Aussies and yeah, it just makes me feel like I'm, I'm back there. I haven't heard that accent for so long.

We don't have a ton of Aussies over here in Tampa, 

Florida. Yeah. , I'm pretty used to the American accent 'cause obviously we see a lot of your TV shows and movies and, um, so yeah, it's, it's pretty normal for us Aussies to, to hear the American accent. Boring 

for you. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Every, we don't think we have an accent, but yeah.

Everyone who doesn't think they have an accent probably has an 

accent, right? Yeah. And, but even just within America, there's so different, so many different accents just within the one country. Um, it's very true. Yeah. You get to super true Hear em all on tv. 

Yeah. I love it. So yeah, why don't we, why don't we get started and tell me a little bit about your background, how you got into, I mean, we'll lead up to, to the race and kind of what you're doing now and, and ultras and all that.

But tell me about your, your history as an athlete. Have you always been a runner? 

Um, yeah. I like growing up I was never really sporty. Um, I wasn't really a runner until I. Got into high school, so year eight. Um, so yeah, sort of wanted to, to try cross country. Um, I was never really that good at it, but I was just like, no, I'll just stick with it.

I'll keep doing it. And, you know, just, um, yeah, see if I can improve. And o over the five years for, from year eight to year 12, I, I went from being not that good to sorta of all right. And I was probably one of the, the top in the school. Um, but then, yeah, left school, um, life got in the way, you know, started working full time and just, yeah, running, kind of took a back seat.

Um, and it wasn't probably until about 10 years later, um, I picked it up again and, uh, discovered park run. So park run is, it's pretty big here in Australia, but I. I, I know you've got it in America, but I don't know if too many people know about it. Yeah. But basically it's a five K run every Saturday. Um, it's just a free weekly timed thing.

Um, and I started doing that and I'm like, I just wanna get better at doing this park run thing. And so yeah, I made a commitment to run every day and yeah, it just kind of grew from there. Um, but yeah, I've never had any intentions of doing ultra marathons or, or anything longer than a, a marathon really.

Um, e even a marathon, I was like, oh yeah, I might do one of them just to say I've done it. Um, but then, you know, I've just go back to the five K stuff and yeah, I did a marathon and I'm like, oh, that was cool. Let's do another one. Um, and then, yeah, it was probably in 2019, so just four years ago. Um, I had a free entry to a 12 hour run and yeah, just run as far as you can in 12 hours and that, that I guess, was my introduction to, to the ultra running scene, and I just discovered I, I had a bit of a talent for, for that really long stuff.

And yeah, so that's kind of, yeah, what got me into it. So 

Interesting. So yeah. What, what hooked you about the marathon distance, first of all, to make you do wanna do another one, and then again that 12 hour after that, like, what was it about, about that distance or about the race that, that stuck 

with you?

Yeah, I, I guess I'm a a a very competitive person and so when I did my first marathon, I was. Three hours and two minutes, and I was like, oh, I was so close to getting under three hours and I just wanted to do better at it. So I'm like, I'll sign up for another one. I'm looking for the next one, whereas I can sign up.

Um, and yeah, so when I did my next one and I got 2 58, I think, and then, yeah, dropped it again to 2 55 and I just wanted to keep improving. Um, it actually, 2 55 is still my, my fastest official marathon. Um, but during Covid when there was no events on and I was feeling in really good shape, I just went and did a, a marathon, um, just on my own and did a, a two hour 42.

So I guess you can count that as my pb but it wasn't in an official race. Um, and then, but more recently I've done a 50 K run. Where at the 42 K mark I was under two 40. So you could count that as a PB as well, I guess. Yeah. But yeah, it's just, I just wanted to, yeah, I just liked doing those fast events and I just wanted to see how quick I could get at it.

But now it's, it's moved more from wanting to be fast and just wanting to do the harder stuff go a lot further and also more experience based runs, um, where you just kind of get a bit more out of it than just a, a good time at the end. 

For sure. So for you now, it's so funny 'cause I think that's a, that speaks to the athlete mentality of kind of just reaching a little bit further and being super competitive and, hey, you did a marathon, but like you're trying to now, um, You know, PB or, um, get something different out of it.

And now for trail runs, it's probably, there's so many different aspects to, uh, or ultra running. Uh, you can pick more technical courses or further longer, right? Like pick what, what you kind of want to, uh, what you wanna focus on. There's so many aspects where you can challenge your, your body and your brain, which is super cool.

Um, so yeah, for you, I think, like, I'm, I'm super curious, like after you've done the marathon, you did that entry to the, the 12 hour race then, and then how did that, how did that 12 hour race go for you? 

Yeah, so that was, um, the, the longest one I'd ever done up to that point. And so I'd done, I think I'd done like a 47 K run, which was about four hours.

So going from four hours to 12 hours, that was like a huge jump, but in my head I was like, you know, it's just 12 hours. I don't even have to run the whole thing. Even if I'm stopped, you know, I'm still gonna be getting closer to that finish line. Um, I went there and I had, you know, like three or four changes of clothes.

I just had so much food. I took a swag so I could have a sleep if I wanted. And so I was just, yeah, just prepared for sort of anything. And I, I didn't really know how I'd go. Um, my, my goal was that I just wanted to keep moving the whole time. And, um, yeah, so it wasn't about going fast for me. I just started at a pace that I thought I might be able to maintain.

And I, I probably started in, I. Like af after the, the first hour or so, I was probably in the top 20 maybe, but I just kept plotting along at my pace and then, you know, people that had gone out faster than me, they're now stopping for, for breaks or pulling out and I just kept ticking away and by the end of it, I, I ended up finishing in second place.

And yeah, so I was really happy with that. Not just to get second, but just to, to show myself that, you know, I can just continually keep moving for that, for that 12 hours. Like, there, there was a couple of times I stopped to eat or to, to change my shoes or something like that. Um, but for the most part I was, I was running or walking that whole way.

And, um, yeah, so I got, got to the end of it and I thought, oh, maybe, maybe this is something I'm all right at, and, you know, might have a, be able to do a few more of these. And then, yeah, at the time, like 12 hours just seemed huge and, and now I'm, yeah. Going into to run sort of, yeah, 24 hours, you know, four days.

Um, so yeah, it's just grown exponentially. Wow. Yeah. 

It's, it's so impressive. I think, like we haven't, I, I didn't, I didn't really do a great job of explaining the beginning. We're gonna get more into the, , the backyard ultra, but people who are listening who aren't privy to know exactly how long of a race that is.

Right. You did  425 miles.  In four days. That was the, that's the world record. So 102 laps of the four, 4.1 miles. Yeah.

Yep. Yep. So, oh my God. Every 24 hours is um, a hundred miles. So four and a quarter days. So 425 miles. 

4 25. Oh my gosh. I shortchange you by way too many miles. That's, that's aggressive.

That is so, so impressive.  Athletes of all different sports listen to this show and, you know, endurance athletes and, and not, and so for those athletes who are not endurance athletes, it's hard for people to even wrap their brain around doing a, doing a half or doing a marathon, right?

Like 26.2 miles. Oh my gosh. So anything from, depends on your reference point. Anything can kind of seem bigger. Right? I remember before I did my first marathon, I grew up as a volleyball player, played professional volleyball, always hated running, really despised it.

But that's why I got into running because I. I wanted to just push myself and do the thing that I was like leaning away, furthest away from, right. So I was like, I'm gonna do the marathon. Um, but for some people that's so hard to grasp, like just even the, the 26.2. And then for you, it's like just once you get there, your whole reference point changes of what's capable, what your body's capable of, what your brain's capable of.

But  it sucks that not a lot of people , give themselves the opportunity to do the pushing because there's really cool stuff that you learn about yourself along the way. Right. And the confidence that you must have built, like from point to point to point, from, from four hours to 12 hours to now,  the, the backyard Ultra.

What, what do you feel like you've learned about yourself along the way? Just pushing past all of these, these points of reference that you didn't think you can get past before I. 

Yeah. So my, my concept of, of what's hard has definitely changed. Like, I'll do, you know, a, a marathon as a training run now and then, you know, I'll get to the end of that run and, you know, feeling great.

And then I think back to when I first did a marathon and how it was such a big deal, you know, it was, you know, training for, for months leading up into that to get to the, to the position where I could actually front that start line and, and run that race. And, you know, you'd get to points during that, that run where you'd start to struggle mentally or physically and kind of just hang on till you get to the end.

And now it's, yeah, I'll, I'll do a 42 k run. Um, and yeah, I've sort of not, maybe not doing it in a pb time, but, but still doing it, uh, in an all right time and, and getting to the end and, and feeling really good and then still being able to go out the next day and, and run another 15 Ks or something. So I'm not needing such a, a big recovery time.

So, Yeah, my, my concept of what's hard has definitely changed. And, um, even when I do these backyards now, going into the, the first sort of 24 or 48 hours, it's, it's almost like that's my, my warmup and it's. The, the race hasn't even started for me yet until it sort sort of gets to that pointy end when you've got like two or three people left.

Um, and that's when you know that the hard work actually begins to start. Um, but yeah, you just, yeah, you just, sometimes you like, people just think that they're not capable of, of doing these distances, but then they go out there and they give it a crack and they try it and they, they realize, hang on, wait, I can do this.

And I think the Backyard Ultra is, is perfect for that because people might go into that race with thinking, oh, you know, I might get to 12 hours or 24 hours, or, or whatever it is. And they get to that point and then they're like, well, hang on a minute. I'm not ready to finish here. I can still go into another lap.

And then they might end up doing another lap or another five laps or another 10 laps. And it's just a really good way to see what you're actually capable of. And, and I think that's, What I've liked about the, the backyard format is, yeah, I've really been able to learn a lot more about what I'm capable of and, and what my body can do and what my mind can do.

Right. And that is really cool. I mean, I think it's an amazing format. I'm so, I'm so intrigued by it, just specifically because, you know, I, I work with so many athletes and endurance runners and we talk a lot about the things that you say to yourself to get yourself from, you know, to the next aid station to the next point.

And so I think for that format, the backyard format in particular, it's one more lap, right? One more lap. So even though it's the 4.1 miles, like in your brain, it's really attainable, right? It's not like you have all of this terrain to cover. , 

it's easier. Did, did, did it feel that way to you? 

Lap? Yeah, that's what, that's what drew me to it in the first place. Yeah. Um, it was just like, to sign up for a hundred mile race, that's like a big deal and a big commitment and, and, um, it can be very overwhelming, but when you're looking at a backyard ultra and you just think it's just, I, I say 6.7 Ks, but yeah, for the American listeners, 4.1 miles, um, just, just thinking that, yeah, I only need to run 4.1 miles and I go and I'll do that.

And if I get to the end of it, then I just go and do it again. So you just really breaking it down into those elements. Um, the same way where, where if you were to run a point to point, instead of looking at the whole a hundred mile distance or 200 mile distance, whatever it is, you just look, okay, it's just 15 Ks for the next aid station.

And then when I get there, you know, Then I just need to look for the next aid station. It might be 18 kss away, or whatever it is. And just breaking it down into those, those little segments makes it really easy to, to not, um, overwhelm yourself with And you can Yeah. And, and with the backyard, because it's got no finish line, you, you don't need to think, I have to get to a hundred miles, or I have to get to 200 miles.

You're just basically going as far as you can go. So for you, if that's 12 hours and that's the furthest that you've ever gone, then great. But if you, yeah, you get to that 12 hours and you feel like you can keep going, then you've got that opportunity to, to push it a bit further. Right. 

Yeah. I think that's so cool and it's hopefully alluring to people that are, that are listening.

'cause it's a really cool,  format.  I'm curious for you, we can talk a little bit about the, about the race and, and how that went for you. I'm always super curious first of all, what the prep looked like for that race. , and then we can kind of get into when your body feels like it's done right.

How do you trick your, how does your brain trick your body into, you know, uh, to keep, to keep moving when you feel like you wanna hit a wall? You know? So talk, yeah. First maybe we can talk about a little bit of the prep. Like, I know I, I read somewhere that you, , you took, you took cold showers to prep for, for this race.

Is that true? 

Yeah, and I've, I've done it for other events as well. , if they're in the, in the middle of winter, you know, it's gonna be cold just to like, adapt my body to that cold. Yeah. I'll just, I will go and have cold showers and just get used to that. Um, but the other thing is as well, it's not just training your body to, to, um, to tolerate the cold.

You're also training your mind to just. Do things that you don't wanna do because you're stand in front of that shower, you've got the cold tap on, and you know, when you stand under that, you, you're gonna get cold and you're not gonna like it. But you do that every day. You're just pushing past that thing in your, your brain that's saying, no, don't step in there.

You're just going, no, look, this is what we're doing. We're having a cold shower. So that initial bit of, of getting under the cold water can be mentally tough. But then once you're in there, you're just like, look, here we are. Let's just do it. And you know, you've been there for like two or three minutes and, and the more you do it, the, the better you get at it.

And it's the same thing with when you're at a backyard. You might be like, I really don't wanna go and do that next lap, but you know what, we've gotta a minute left. Gotta get to that start line. Let's just do it. So I think yeah, that kind of helps with that mental aspect and even just, um, yeah, so what I say to a lot of people is, do those runs that you don't wanna do.

So it's all well and good to, to go and run when we're in a good mood, when we're happy, when we're enjoying it. But then sometimes you're gonna get days where, you know, you've just had a really long day at work and you just can't be bothered. Or, you know, you woke up and you're not feeling great. Um, or, you know, it's, it's cold outside or it's raining or it's too hot and you just gotta be like, no, this is on my plan.

I've gotta do 10 ks today, so let's just get out there and do it. You know, I've said I was gonna do this run first thing in the morning and look, it's raining outside, but you know, that's not gonna stop me. I'm still gonna get out there and do it. So I think those are the sort of runs that, yeah, you might not wanna join 'em, but then once you've done it, you're like, you feel better for doing it.

And it, it helps build that, that mental resilience to, to be used to running when, when your mind might not feel like it. 

100% and we're the master. I always tell my clients like, you're the master manipulator of your own brain. Like, you know what you can say to yourself to, you know, let yourself off the hook or to get yourself to push a little bit further.

Um, but yeah, things like elevation training. Right now I'm in Tampa, Florida, so the humidity is like 90 some percent, right? So it's, it's rough to run out here right now, but that's the ultimate mental training. Like what are you, are you gonna be the person training in the rain, uh, you know, in the humidity doing the elevation training when it's hard, when you're uncomfortable.

But yeah, exactly what you said. Then you have those. Training sessions as reference points to build your confidence for when shit does get hard in the middle of a race. You, you have all of that adaptation. You have that, that foundation of coaching your body to, to push through. Otherwise, I think people who don't do those things and you know, don't do the long runs or don't do the hard training sessions are at such a deficit.

It's, it's like, I would not be comfortable. I'm one of those people that like sticks to my training plan. Um, oh, are you still there? Yeah. Oh, okay. Perfect. Your video cut out, but I can still hear you. We'll just, yeah. All good. We'll figure that out. , but when, when you stick to your training plan pretty, you know, pretty rigidly, then you don't give yourself, you know, you don't give yourself an out.

Um, and if I were to be missing a bunch of days, I'm sure you're, you're maybe the same way. If you're to be missing all these runs, then, then there's the question and there's the doubt in your mind, come race day of like, osha, am I prepared? Am I actually prepared for this? 'cause I, I missed out on that.

Right? So you're kind of at a deficit if that happens. So all the more to, uh, add that foundation to, to do the hard things, um, along the 

way. Right. Yeah, definitely like, yeah, when when you do your races, like you, you want 'em to be fun and enjoyable and easy, but there's definitely gonna be points in there where it's not.

So if you've gotten used to to running at those times where it's not easy then, and you come to expect that in your race, you're gonna find it a lot easier. You're not gonna go into it thinking it's all gonna be sunshine and rainbows and the first point of struggle, you're gonna be like, why did I sign up for this?

Why am I doing this? I wanna quit. So yeah, it's about just, yeah, getting past that sort of thing in your mind, telling you to stop. 

Absolutely. Have you ever had during a, during a race where your brain is starting to play tricks on you? I mean, you're super human, but you're, you're also still human.

So you have the, you know, the emotional brain, uh, I always call it the emotional brain and the rational brain, right? And your emotional brain is what kicks in when you, you get, you know, things get hard and you get uncomfortable and you start to feel like maybe you, you are lacking some, some confidence there, whatever.

, what are you saying to yourself during those, those moments when that starts to kick in and you notice that that's happening? 

I, I definitely get points in races where I'm just like, why did I sign up for this? This is stupid, you know, I'm not gonna do this again. Um, but I'm also very stubborn, so I don't like to give up.

Um, but there's been, , times in like in backyards in particular, like I never wanna quit, but it definitely gets to the point where I want the race to end. And for me, The only way the race is gonna end is, is if I finish as the last one standing. Like, I, I'm not, I don't wanna get out because I've, I've quit.

Um, right. So for me it's, yeah, it's just about, you know, as long as this race is still going, I still need to be standing at that start line and, and ready to start that next lap. Um, but yeah, I, I definitely get moments where I'm just like, yeah, I, I don't wanna do this anymore. Um, but it's more like I want the race to end because everyone else drops out, not because I drop out.

Um, right. But yeah, it's, you, you do get into those dark holes and I. Like my career is very good at sort of talking me around and, and helping me get back into that, um, positive mindset. And also just like thinking back of, of other races that I've done that are similar or in, you know, when I've had those negative doubts, doubts before, and, uh, you know, realizing that I've, I've overcome them before, that kind of gives me the confidence that, you know, this is just a little slump, but, you know, I, I get through this slump, I'll, I'll be on a, on a rise again afterwards.

So it is just about sticking with it and just having that stubbornness to, to persist through it. 

Right? Yeah, absolutely. I work with a lot,  of athletes on their pre-game, their pre-race routines and, and what that looks like and what they can do to  confront the emotional brain when things do get hard so that they're prepared, right?

So for any athletes listening, if that's you, you're not alone. Phil's an amazing athlete and , he needs a little pump up from time to time. ,   I did put together a checklist, the athlete's checklist, to stop overthinking, right? 'cause that's what our brain is, is trained to do, is to focus on what's, what's going wrong, , when really we have to retrain our brain to focus on what's going right.

So anyone that wants to pick up that checklist, make sure to head over to ReadySet mindful.com. , but overthinking is definitely a piece of it, right? We focus on what's, what's wrong, what's going wrong. What we're not doing well. So it's good to have a crew, you know, your people who recognize maybe your, your body language in those moments when you're feeling low or dark or you just need like, some energy, some fuel, right?

They're probably there to kind of pick you up, uh, in those times. And, um, so you can work your way out of 

it. Yeah, definitely. And, and what I do as well, when I, um, when I run these backyards, I actually, like, I keep a track of a lot of things as I do each lap. So like my, my lap pace, um, like, like what I ran that lap in, what shoes I wore.

Um, you know, what I ate, but also what my mood is. So I have like a, a mood scale and it's just like range one to five. So it just gives my, my crew an indication when I come in instead of saying, oh, like, how are you going? And you, you know, your automatic response, you're just like, oh yeah, not too bad, or, yeah, good thanks.

Um, they just say, what, what's your mood scale? And, you know, it'll be a number between one to five. And so five being the best and one being, you know, I wanna quit. I want this race to end. And so that kind of just gives them an indication of where I'm at and, you know, if I do need any of that sort of mental intervention to, to help get me out of, of a rut or to kind of then ask the question, oh, okay, what's going on?

Like, why are you feeling this way? Um, but also, When I sort of look back on the, on the run, I can, I can see that pattern of, okay, I, I was feeling really good. Then around this time I started feeling bad, but then I picked up again and I can kind of see what sort of interventions kind of ma made me pick up again.

And a, a lot of the times it might be just the time of day. So, you know, between three and 5:00 AM is a real tough time in any sort of ultra. So I might find a, I get a slump, then it might have something to do with something I ate and it wasn't sitting well in my tummy or, you know, um, how, how the other runners were, were going at that time and, and things like that.

So, I think it, it is important to, to track it as you go through the run because you know, you might get to the second or third day and you'd be like, oh, I'm, I'm feeling pretty rubbish. But then, you know, your crew can look back and be like, oh no, you know, you're feeling like this before and you got through it and you know, it's just that time, time of day, time of night.

And, um, yeah, like when you get to sunrise, you always kind of get that little burst of energy and you, you're feeling it a lot better and it. You kind of look back and be like, oh, I don't know why I was, I was feeling like a two back then 'cause now I'm feeling like a four. So yeah, it's, yeah. That's interesting.

Good to keep track of it, I think. 

Yeah. That makes so much sense. Well, and it helps  your brain likes to know what  to prepare for. Right. It's, it's, uh, yeah. You know, it's good to be adaptable as well, but I think it is also super helpful to be able to know that, okay, three to five is kind of like that lull for everybody or me in particular.

Or like, oh, I gotta watch out for this time. 'cause my stomach kind of tends to go this way. So then you're giving yourself a little bit of a, you know, it's a proactive approach and then you can fix it a little bit more. Um, yeah. You know, potentially, at least for the next race. Um, you know, so that, that makes a lot of sense.

And speaking of like, fueling, I'm super curious , what your training routine looks like for a big race like this. You said you mentioned earlier and people are probably just like, Um, in, in shock of doing like the warmup marathon, you know, do a warmup, a, a marathon as a warmup, but what does your actual training routine look like for an intense, , endurance race like this?

And then, uh, talk about how you fuel yourself to, like, what, what that looks like to, to keep you going for all the long training runs. 

Yep. Um, so I run pretty much every day. Um, if I, if I have a day off, it means something seriously wrong, like I'm injured or sick or, or something like that. Um, but yeah, run every day.

Um, and I'll do like a, a minimum week for me, like a recovery week will be about 80 to a hundred kss. And then on my peak weeks it'll be, you know, 160 to 180 ks. Um, so that's, yeah. A hundred miles to, or 110 miles, I guess. Yeah. Good math. Yeah. So. It, it, it does vary just depending on what part of the cycling.

So I won't go from like a hundred Ks to the end of the next week, 180 Ks. It, it's sort of that gradual build and I just, a, a lot of my runs are done at, at an easy pace or recovery pace, and I'll have maybe sort of one tempo session in there and one like interval session. Um, and just, um, yeah, try and mix up the conditions as well.

So, um, yeah, road running, trail running. Um, I do a lot of runs, which is like, I don't like the treadmill. I will avoid the treadmill at all costs, but sometimes I'll just like run loops of like a 400 meter loop. And for me as well, those sort of runs, it, it trains you for that boredom because when you do these backyards and these 12 and 24 hour runs where you're just running the same loop over and over, you're gonna get bored.

So just going and running that 400 meter loop just helps, helps train my brain to deal with that boredom. Because when you, you're running for, for four and a bit days, there's definitely gonna be times that you're getting bored. So you just gotta get used to that. And I think just like, especially in today's world where, you know, you've got entertainment at your fingertips and you know, you can be constantly stimulated, it's good to just go and have like an hour or two hours of running where you just.

Just bored that whole time and just get, get used to that and being okay with that. Um, and yeah, so that, that's just, you know, different parts of my training, which I think separates my, my training from the usual. It's, it's not just about running and doing those Ks, it's about where you're doing those Ks and how you're doing those Ks.

Um, so yeah. And then what was the next question? So important? Oh, the, uh, the nutrition. Oh, 

yeah. Yes. The, the fuel, the fuel part of it. 

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I, I'm really lucky. I've, I've got a really good nutritionist, so, um, Gabby Villa, uh, intern seat fit, and I've been working with her for. Uh, a year or 18 months now.

Um, and she's been really good. So before I started with her, I'd have, um, stomach issues occasionally. Um, for my races I was relatively okay, but what I found was my stomach issues was probably more interrupting my day-to-day training and I wasn't training to my full potential. So just working with her and, and fixing those issues, I'm then suddenly able to train a lot better.

Um, you know, I can run longer and, and more efficiently. Um, and then, yeah, just on, on race day as well, she really helped me with my nutrition plan. So my nutrition plan went from having, um, nothing at all, just taking a whole bunch of food and just eating when I feel like it to. Kind of having a rough guide, like, oh, have lunch at this time, have dinner at this time, but not really having a specific thing of what to eat.

And now it's just, it's at the point now where it's really finely tuned. She's worked out exactly how many calories and carbs I need, um, for each day. And, um, you know, we, we've got foods that I've, I've tested and tried and that works well, that sits well with in my stomach. And so, yeah, I very rarely have stomach issues now.

Um, you know, I'm, my, my cognitive awareness is, is really sharp throughout the whole race or most of the race. And, and yeah, I just always seem to have the right amount of energy. Like I'm, I'm not running outta energy and just, or, you know, getting really hungry or really thirsty. I just, you know, follow what's on my plan and just, yeah, everything else goes really smoothly.

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I mean, it's good to have someone like that on your team because that's a piece of the puzzle where a lot of athletes can, you know, get things wrong and it can go yeah, disastrously poor for you if, uh, you know, poorly for you if you're, if you're not super, super plugged in with your nutrition, right?

Yeah, I'm sure you've seen that like long 

way, I think's probably one of the most, yeah, I think it's one of the most important pieces of the puzzle because if you get your nutrition right, then everything else is gonna go right. Like you can't train properly if you haven't gotten that nutrition right? So you get that nutrition right, then you can train properly, then you can get your mind in the right place.

So when I first sort of started wanting to, to get good at this, um, that, you know, the first thing I did was get a running coach. And don't get me wrong, having the running coach is really helpful and I learned a lot and I trained a lot better. But it wasn't until I started working with a nutritionist that I kind of got everything else dialed in and then I was, I realized how much better I was able to train because of, of the correct feeling.

Right? Yeah. I think it's a really underestimated piece of the puzzle, right? Like a lot of people think that, um, and this is like an old school way of thinking too, just like you're, you're grinding out your training sessions and doing this and you're kind of forgetting about the mental piece and the, you know, the, the mental training, like the, the cold showers and the hard runs and all of those trainings you don't wanna do, and then also sleep and then nutrition kind of fall by the wayside and we can't do anything right or to the level that we want to if those things aren't plugged in.

'cause you just will not have energy. You're making things so much harder for yourself in those moments. So if you truly wanna Yeah, optimize your performance like that, that's such a good place to start. It's just fueling your body just makes everything else easier for you throughout the day, I would 

imagine.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. 

That's awesome. How's your, how's your sleep routine? Do you prioritize your, your sleep? Are you a good sleeper? 

Yeah, I do sleep pretty good. Um, so yeah, as I said before, I go to sleep about 10 30. And then just depending on what time I start my run in the morning, I'm normally up, I probably around six o'clock.

Um, if I'm doing a longer run, it might be earlier, so probably the earliest I get up is maybe four o'clock. Um, just depending how long I wanna run. Um, and, and yeah, like I, I've, I've gotten really good at getting to sleep quickly. So, you know, if I'm in bed by, um, 10 30, I'm probably asleep by 10 45. And that, that's a, a trick that comes in handy for the backyard ultras as well, like when you need to get to sleep really quickly.

Um, like you only get a, a 15 minute, um, you know, window to, to try and get sleep in between laps. So, yeah, being able to, to fall asleep. 

Yeah. How do you, how do you do that? I've heard, like, I've heard that story, I've heard Courtney Dewal talk about that before, where she took like the one minute, like hour nap where she felt like she slept for an hour and she slept for literally one minute.

But how do you, how are you training yourself to sleep that quickly? I. 

Yeah. So, yeah, it is weird, like, so with the backyard, you like, I'll, I'll try and do my night laps a little bit quicker, so I'll get more of a, a window to sleep, right. And yeah, I'll, I'll come in and, you know, I've, I've got a routine that as I come in, you know, I'm taking my gloves off, taking my buff off, you know, handing my water bottle over to my crew, all of that straight into bed.

So from crossing the finish line to lying down, you know, I'm, I'm probably only using a minute up there. And then, yeah, it's just close my eyes and I'll meditate and I'll use noise canceling headphones. And for me, it's like, I don't put my pressure, put that pressure on myself that I have to sleep. It's just, I'm just gonna lie there and close my eyes and meditate.

And if I sleep then that's a bonus. And I just find that probably nine times outta 10 I'm falling asleep anyway. And it might only be for, for a few minutes of, of proper sleep. Um, but I. You wake up feeling refreshed, like there were points in, in this race just gone. There were points where my wife was telling me that I was snoring and I don't normally snore.

I don't think I normally snore, so that's probably a good sign that I'm getting into that deep sleep. Yeah, there, there was one lap where it just felt like I'd have been asleep for hours and I just felt like my crew had forgot to wake me up or they, they'd fallen asleep as well. And I just like sat ball upright.

I'm like, what time is it? What time is it? And they're like, relax, relax. Like you still got a minute. Um, so yeah, then like a minute later the alarm went off and I had my little four minute routine to, to get ready and get back out to the start line. But it just goes to show that you can get into that deep, deep stage of sleep within that, um, sort of 15, 20 minute window.

And I think absolutely, it just comes back to how do I go to sleep every night? So every night, like, I won't, I won't keep my phone in my room, I just kind of remove all distractions. So I lie down, just close my eyes, meditate until I fall asleep. And I'm, I'm pretty good at, at sticking to that routine. Um, and yeah, so I think my body just, you know, when it comes to race day, because I've done a lot of these races as well and, and done a lot of these 15 minute sleeps, um, my body's a bit more prepared for it and more, um, accustomed to, to being able to do that.

Absolutely. Yeah, that makes so much sense. when I was in college,  our college coach used to always tell us we can only take naps if they were, you know, 15 to 20 minutes. And then only if we took a cold shower after. So I used to piss all of us off because, except for me,  and I've always kind of held onto that and I, I use that with my clients a lot.

Uh, two, when we're talking about their sleep routines and their energy lulls throughout the day, and I'm hearing about like what they're doing to kind of, that contributes to that. And I'm a firm believer in using, hey, if we can't get a 15 minute to 20 minute power nap in meditate, right? You're getting a lot of, you know, a lot of recovery and, uh, mental energy when you're, when you're meditating.

So even if you're not sleeping, you're giving your brain that that break that it needs from looking at your screen all day. And, you know, having that dopamine hit and being super energized, your brain needs a break. We're not meant to, you know, stare at Yeah. Screens all day. So, um, yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad to hear you say that the meditation gives so much back to you and you just take the pressure off yourself like, I sleep, I'm good.

If not, whatever, I'm still rested. 

Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of the afternoon nap as well, so I. If I, if I'm at home and, you know, get to that time of the afternoon that you're a bit sleepy, it's, it's your body telling you you just need to rest. So just go and lie down, whether it's 15 minutes or a couple of hours.

Get that sleep in. And for me, I find it doesn't really, if, if it, if it's kind of just around that, um, hour mark or less than an hour, it doesn't interrupt. With my nighttime sleep, I can still have a solid sleep at night. Sure. I think if you're going more than two hours, then you probably might be getting too much sleep and, and it's gonna interrupt your, your, you know, your nighttime sleep.

So, um, yeah, like if you're tired and, you know, you're in, in the position where you're able to just go and lie down, even if it's, if you're at work and you, you've got like a half hour break and you just wanna go and, you know, lie down for 20 minutes or something, like, just take advantage of that and just have that nap.

And for me, a lot of the time, you know, I wake up feeling better and, you know, a, a lot more energy for the, for the rest of the afternoon. For sure. 

Yeah. I think there's a resistance sometimes for, and maybe it's not, it's not the case for, for you, um, and endurance athletes because there's so much output.

But I think for lots of athletes and lots of athletes I work with too, there's a lot of resistance to the recovery piece. Um, it's changing, right? Like that narrative is, is changing, but there's still a lot of resistance to, to resting and taking that time and really listening to your body when it does need to rest.

Um, but yeah. So I'm glad to hear you. You take a nap, you listen. What other recovery strategies are your favorite for just decompressing? 

Um, yeah. Sleep is probably the big one. Like when I, when I'm in taper, um, yeah, like those two weeks before, before the event. It's about just making sure that my diet is all tuned in, so I will mm-hmm.

You know, A a lot of stuff I'm probably not meant to eat like normally, but you know, when it, when it comes to, to taper, it's about just tuning that in and, and making sure I'm having all the right stuff. Um, and yeah, trying to actually make time for getting that afternoon nap. So it is not just for me that the taper, it's not about running less, it's, it's, it's more about yeah, those other aspects of recovery.

Um, because I'm not spending an extra two hours running, it means I've got another two hours in the day to, to go and have that, have that nap. Um, and just, just generally like trying to do less. So with these events that I do, there's always a lot of like, logistics involved as in like, packing and, you know, shopping and all of that sort of stuff.

I try and get that done and have it finished like a week before the event. So, so that last week can just be stress free, you know, I don't have to stress it out too much. Even stuff like getting the house clean so you don't have to worry about cleaning the house for that week and, and things like that.

So if you can do, if there's, if there's stuff on your to-do list, Get that all done before the event. Um, and, and give yourself like that week of, of just, you know, being able to just chill out on the couch and watch movies, and watch TV and, um, yeah, just sort of have your easy runs, have your naps, make sure you're eating right, and, um, yeah.

Then you, when it comes to race, so you, you're over refreshed and ready to go. 

You're ready, you feel, yeah. Your body, body and brain feel rested and ready to go. Mm-hmm. Do you have any pre-game, you know, pre-race, uh, superstitions or things that you do before every race, whether it's like, I have to kiss my wife, or I have to listen to this song, or like, I have to, you know, do this or that.

Um, anything that, that you do to, to prepare you, that you feel like puts you in a good mental and emotional 

space? Um, no, I'm not really superstitious or, or anything like that. I do have a plan and I, I have my routine, so I'll follow those kind of method methodically. Um, but yeah, I think it's just, again, probably just coming back to that sleep and eating, like have, have a good meal the night before and have a good sleep the night before and just, yeah, I, I normally find that I can have good sleep.

Like a lot of people will, you know, kind of be stressing that night before and, you know, overthinking the event and stuff like that. Um, but for me, I just find it easy to kind of switch off and just, just have that good sleep and then, yeah, so whi which, which is really handy to, to get that good sleep when you're going into an event that, you know, you might not be able to sleep properly for, for four days.

Um, but yeah, as far as any other like superstitions or, or rituals or that, I don't, I don't really have any, I've, I've, yeah, just probably. Just my normal habits and, and following my plan. So yeah. 

What are your, what is your pre-race routine?  Walk me through how, what you're eating the night before. Like do you have a staple, you know, something, your staples that you're eating the night before, and then what do you, what, what does the night before look like for you?

And then the morning of, as far as, yeah, just, just preparing your, your mind and your body, or is that, that training is already kind of done, you don't feel like you need to meditate before or do anything before? Kind of walk me through what that looks like for you. Yeah, 

so I'll, I'll, I'll meditate every night anyway.

Mm-hmm. So that doesn't change before race, so I still do my normal meditation. Um, do more. How long do you long 

you meditate for? Let's, I, sorry I stop you here. Um, 

yeah. So I'll, I'll meditate just, just before bed and, and pretty much I'm meditate until I fall asleep. So it, it doesn't normally end up being that long because I'm not.

Um, I, I fall asleep pretty quickly. Okay. Um, but then if, if I, like, I will occasionally meditate as well when it's, um, you know, when it's not right before bed and, and that'll be like maybe 15 minutes to half an hour just sort of sitting on the couch and, uh, and, and meditating that way. And, um, but yeah, the, the night before.

Um, so yeah, just like carb heavy meals. Um, so like rice, um, is a popular one. Like there's not really a specific meal that I have. Um, but yeah, any, anything that's kind of carb heavy, um, loy fat, um, and yeah. And then always, yeah, try and get a early night. So, and I'll, I'll. Probably like the week leading into the event as well.

I try and adjust my bedtime and it, it'll depend on what time the event starts as well. Um, but I'll kind of shift my bedtime from like 10 30 to maybe eight 30 or seven 30. So when it gets to the night before the race, I can just go to bed at seven 30 and be able to sleep and, and, you know, have a good sort of 10 hours or however many hours it is I need before the event.

Um, and, and yeah, so I've, I've, I've in a pretty good routine that way and, um, as, as long as something else doesn't interrupt, like if I have to work the, the day before or something like that, but, but normally I can kind of balance it properly. 

Good. That's awesome. Yeah. Was, was there anything like during, you know, during the race, during, um, During that race that that happened that kind of took you off your game a little bit?

Or was it super smooth and that's why you were able to, to do what you were able to do? Like walk me through maybe like a really hard moment for you, like if something went wrong or unexpected and then, um, yeah, what your favorite aspect of that race was. 

So, This, this race, it went really well. Um, you know, ev every lap I'm following my plan, like almost to the letter.

There's a few little things I had to change, but, you know, if, if my pace said that I had to run, you know, 38 minutes, I wa I was out there and I was running a 38 minute lap. If it was saying a 45 to 50 minute lap, then I was within that window. Um, if it said on there, you know, I have to eat, you know, this tub of rice cream, you know, I'm, I'm eating that.

Um, it wasn't until, um, it got down to just the two of us at the end, and then I started, you know what I always tell people, um, and tell myself not to worry about what anyone else is doing and not to, you know, think about how much longer the race has got left. You just gotta keep focusing on, on one lap at a time and just focus on what you are doing.

But after running for, for 90 odd hours, I'm, I'm suddenly like looking around and thinking, you know, how, how are the other guys looking? So Sam was the, the second last one, standing, and then my mind started to convince myself that, you know, Sam was looking good and you know, this race is gonna go in a while.

And I'm like, oh, you know, I just want him to drop out so this race can finish. And. But he's not dropping out. He's looking strong, so I gotta keep going. And that's annoying. And, um, so that, that's probably kind of where I had to start to have those first negative thoughts. And I actually joked with my crew.

Like I, I was like talking with my crew about it, about, you know, I wasn't feeling like I could last, you know, a lot longer. And, and they're like, yeah. So I just, I, I joked with them that, you know, it's kind of taken me four days to, to get to this point, to start having these negative thoughts where normally I'd get those negative thoughts a lot earlier on.

Um, but they, they lasted a few laps and then, um, and then Sam started struggling and to the point that he'd. I got his crew to ask my crew if I could run with him. And then, so to me that's, that was like, oh, okay. I am feeling a lot better than him because he's struggling to the point that he is asked me to, to run with him.

So that made me feel a bit better and it perked me up. But, um, the only thing about that was I was, I was stray from my plan. So I'd gone from doing like 38 minute lapse to, to get that sort of 15, 20, 20 minute sleep to now I'm running with him, which was probably closer to 50 minutes and I wasn't getting any time to sleep.

Right. And so that kind of threw me a little bit. Um, but then I was like, well, I. You know, this is only gonna be a few more laps anyway, because obviously he's near the end. And I started, I made the mistake of, of thinking that the event was gonna finish soon and, and that I had the wind in the bag and then yeah, when the sun came up and he suddenly like was running on his own again.

And yeah, my mind went, it started convincing itself that, you know, Sam was looking a lot better than I was feeling, but, But really like looking back on the photos and, and videos and stuff like that, it's, yeah, I can see that he was still really struggling, but at that point in time I was like, oh, you know, this is gonna be a lot harder to, to win this, and I'm gonna have to hang on a lot longer.

And so, yeah, your mind, well start, you know, it might just pick up something like, oh no, Sam did that lap, like, you know, three minutes quicker, that means he's improving. And then your mind just sort of focuses on that point. So you just gotta bring it back and just go back to, okay, what's my plan? Okay, this lap, I'm gonna run at this pace, you know, and, and you just gotta take it lap by lap.

So, Um, but yeah, it was, it, it was kind of touch and go a bit there around the nineties and then sort of towards the end of the race he, when he started really visibly struggling, um, then I, I started, um, and, and I sort of, around the same time I started to feel better. 'cause, you know, I'd gone and had a shower and, you know, he changed my clothes and all of that.

So then I wa I was feeling really pos positive and he was looking like he was struggling. And yeah, it, it, as it turned out, there was only another, like three or four laps left from that point anyway. And, and then the, the race ended. So I was doing the last lap on my own and that was probably the best lap that I did of the, of the whole event.

So. Wow. 

That's crazy. And to stray from your plan too, I mean, you put so much work, so much time,  so much effort, so much energy. And then to run with him, to keep him going, I mean, I. That's, that's a tough decision, right? I'm sure. I mean, what, what went into that? That was, was that just an easy yes, an easy one for you, or?

It must've been really hard. 

My, my crew pretty much decided for me and they said, this is what you're gonna do. Um, but yeah, for like, for a moment I was like, you know, if I don't run with him, you know, he's struggling to the point that if I don't run with him, he might just drop out and then I can take this home and, and win it.

And, but then my, my goal in the, on, in these sort of races is, is not to win it or not to get to a certain number of laps. It's just to stay in the game for as long as possible. So I just came back to that as like my core principal, like if I wanna stay in this for as long as possible, then I gotta help him get through the next few laps.

So, wow. And it was just an agreement to get him through the night laps and then he would be fine once he'd got through to the, to the day lapse. So I stayed with him, him for those two laps to help him get through. And, you know, at the end of the day, if by helping him get through those laps, it, it got him to, to a, a stronger position and he was able to outlast me, then I still would've gone further than what I'd done is if I'd just let him kind of fade out at, at, at that laps.

So, um, and yeah, at the end of the day, that's my ultimate goal is to, to stay in there as long as possible and yeah. And if, if I keep thinking about that and, and keep doing each lap with that in mind, then eventually I'll, you know, I'll get to those milestones like getting to the, the four day mark and to the, the world record mark and, and so forth.

It's so impressive to be able to have that, that insight , in that moment when I'm sure everything in your. And your cells just wants to, , quit and be done. But , trying to bring it back to, , your core principle, like you said of, okay, well if I really wanna do this longer than like, this makes the most sense and I'm gonna feel better about what I'm doing here.

But yeah, it's like that separation. I think that's the ultimate goal for, for athletes, right? Like in those moments where things are so hard and you have your emotional brain, you have your rational brain to be able to think with your rational brain and separate from the emotion, separate from the discomfort and that easy, quick win, , so to speak, is it's not easy, right?

, that's so 

hard. It definitely crosses my mind a lot of the time. Like, even though ultimately what I'm there for is the same as long as possible when, when you're at that pointy end and yeah, it, I I am always thinking, I do wanna win this. Like, I, I wanna beat him, you know, I wanna, I wanna like keep going.

And, and get as far as I can, but I also wanna get as far as I can and win it. Right? So it, it is hard to go, I wanna get as far as I can, even if that means that, um, by doing that it means that I'm not gonna win it. So it, it is a hard thing to do. Um, yeah. But that's why like, I kind of write it down as well.

So it's just kind of, you know, I, when it gets to that point, I just need to remind myself that, that that's what I'm there for. Um, and yeah, so if that means helping another runner get a bit further and, um, yeah, to, to help me get further, then, then yeah, I'll stray from my plan and I'll do that. Um, But yeah, it's, it's, it is very hard when you've, when you've been there for, for four days and all you want, you know, a part of you all, all at once is for that event to just be over so you can just stop running and go to sleep.

But then also to get that far and, and we we're so close to the world record as well, you know, if we were to get that far and not get to that world record. You know, we'd always look back on it and be like, oh, you know, we're only a few laps off. Like if we wanna go and have another crack at that, you know, we're gonna have to run for that whole four days again before we're, before we're there again.

So it is good to look back and go like, you know, I did the right thing. We, we got through that and, and we kept going and, and we got to the world record and, you know, I pretty much got Sam as, as far as he could go, um, like three laps before the world record. He was, he was having a lot of trouble breathing.

Um, he mentioned he had a problem with his hammy and yeah, I, I thought he was gonna have to stop at, at the end of lap 98, but then he, he'd lined up for LAP 99 and I'm like, okay, if you think you can do this, I'll stay with you for the, for the next few laps and we'll just take it lap by lap and see if we can get to that world record.

Wow. 

That's, ugh, that's so cool. That's amazing. I mean, to be able to, to look back on, on that situation and be able to, Sleep super well at night, knowing that, I mean, there's so many things that kind of lined up where you, you, you, you can feel really good about what you did, , proud of what you did on so many, on so many levels.

So it's, it's so cool. , do you feel like that's what gives you that extra edge?  What was it between you and Sam or you and other runners? Is it the, what gives you the extra edge? Is it the treadmill runs when you're prepping yourself to be bored? Is it the cold showers? Is it that you come back to your, your core principle?

What do you, what do you think separates 

you? I, I, I think it's a bit of everything. Um, but, but for me, I think where I stand out from, from other runners is my, my organization and. My preparation, um, and, and my planning. So I'm very, yeah, very meticulous and methodical. Like everything's written down and I just follow it.

And I'm not super rigid with it as if, you know, if, if suddenly I, I, I, you know, I have on there that I need to run under 40 minutes and then suddenly I can't run under 40 minutes. I'm not gonna be like, okay, this is it. Game over. You know, I'll adjust. I'll be like, okay, I'll run 45 minutes and I'll only get 10 minutes sleep instead of 15 minutes sleep.

Um, so I can be flexible with it, but just having that guideline there to start with, um, it, it just makes it easy for, for me to focus on, all I need to do is run this laugh at this pace, and when I get back, I'm gonna eat this, and then I worry about what I'm gonna do for the next one. So I, I think for me, what I'd say, what my strength is, is that organization and that planning.

Yeah. 

I wanna go back to something that you said earlier too, with. , doing the hard things and pushing,  through the discomfort, doing the, the cold showers and all the hard trainings and things like that. Obviously that helps you in running. And when athletes do hard things, that 100% helps their performance in their sport.

But the thing that I'm always trying to get across to clients too is that it, it's not just that it shows up in your sport, it shows up in your relationships and your family and like, you know, so many other aspects, it bleeds over into every aspect of your life. Right. So I'm just, I'm just curious how, how you feel like that shows up for you, like you as a human, , you know, doing the hard things.

How does that translate into your, your day to day?  Do you feel like it makes your relationships work a little bit smoother or how, how do you feel like that helps you? 

Yeah, I think it's definitely helped.  It helps me with my, like, just resilience to, to everyday problems in life. , I, I probably, , a bit, I wouldn't say blase, but you know, sometimes something goes wrong and I, I don't really stress and panic about it too much.

, There's still, there's still definitely a, a lot of areas in my life, which, , which I do stress about. , but I think overall I'm, I'm probably better at handling those situations. , I work in a, in a job that can be quite stressful at times as well, so I work as a firefighter. So I think that definitely, um, that sort of resilience and that that mental strength, um, carries over a lot into that job as well.

Yeah. And, and vice versa, I think some of the, um, , some of the stuff I've been exposed to at work and, you know, some of the, the jobs I've had to do, it has made me a better runner as well. , but I mean, for me, like running's just, it's just such a ingrained part of my life now that it's, it's kind of hard to tell where the, the running stops and the, the life begins.

Um, because like every aspect of my life, like the, the way that I sleep, the way that I have showers, the way that I eat, it's all. Focused on how is this gonna make me a better runner? Like, even, even when I watch movies, like, not, obviously, not all the time, but a lot of the times I will do movie marathons.

So instead of just watching one Harry Potter movie, I'll go and I'll watch, you know, all eight in a row. And for me it's like, yeah, it's great entertainment. I can sit down and watch these movies, but it's also building that, that, um, strength to be able to sit and focus on the one task all day, which is what you're gonna be doing when you're out there running.

So, yeah, I, I look at things like that and it's like, it, it might seem like, um, yeah, just sort of, you know, not related to running at all, but when you break it down it's like, well, hang on. No. Sitting, sitting still and watching these movies for eight hours in a row, that that can help with your, with your endurance and just your focus on, , having that focus for that extended time.

So yeah, there's so many things in life that, that when I do it, it's like, you know, this is, this is helping me with my running. Like, I'll be at the shops and just walking around, but, you know, I'll be walking really fast because that's just how I move. But also, yeah, that, that fast walking is gonna help you in ultras because, you know, there's gonna be a lot of walking in Ultras.

So, you know, if you're gonna walk, why, why are you gonna do? Or you might as well just walk fast and get it done. 

Yeah. Yeah. I, I love that. , it speaks to your competitive athlete mindset of just always not being able to turn off in a, in a great way of, of just.

Always thinking about an opportunity to build that mental training, right? Like everything that we do in the day is an opportunity to adjust our responses to things, right? And we're gonna have things happen and mistakes are gonna be made, and, um, opportunities to walk faster through the grocery store and different park further away and, you know, just different, different things.

I think there's two ways to kind of look at it. Some people will look at things as, , discomfort and an annoyance and frustration and have a negative response to that. And other people see things as opportunities and a game, right? And a chance to get better.

So it's just being in that mindset, it seems like you're in that quite a bit. And then it makes life, you know, more enjoyable when you're just growing, , every day. Yeah. So that's, that's awesome. I love that. Yeah. , my last question to you, actually, I have two questions. I wanted to, , I'd be remiss to, to let you know, my husband was like, ask him about the gear.

Like what does he,  train in? , does he have any favorite,  she's, that he runs it  again, back to my coach, , in,  college,  he would always say,  look good, feel good, play good.

And so we are always focused on, uh, not focused on gear, but when you're feeling good and things that you're performing in, right, and they, your shoes fit you right, they're super comfortable, or like you feel faster in a certain color, there's something to that, you know? Um, but I'm curious for you if there's, , a piece of your,  training gear or a couple pieces that you're pretty connected to that, that make you feel like you, you perform your 

best.

Yeah. So for the shoes I use, uh, Tarkin. So you don't, I don't think you get 'em in America. They're, they're an Australian based brand. Um, okay. But you can look 'em up. They might, they might ship out that way. Okay. Um, but yeah, they're, that's the, so I had four pairs of Tarkin and I use those for, for the whole four days and just sort of alternate between them.

And yes, it's about finding that shoe that, that's comfy, um, that you can just, well, for me, run all day in. Um, and, and yeah, so they, they did the job, um, I dunno if you saw any of the videos, but I like to wear like, colorful stuff. So my colorful tiles, my colorful suns, um, so my tops are supplied by OC clothing and they're, they're great comfy tops to wear.

Um, but also the thing about the tops that I wear is they, they all have a little bit of meaning to it, so, For example, one of the ones I was wearing has got a, a picture of my mate, , big Kev on it. So we ran together at my second ever backyard where, um, me and him were the last two standing. And I, I got the Australian record and he was my assist and awesome.

Um, he's been at a lot of the backyards that I've done, but, um, he wasn't at this one, so just wearing that top, it's like I've got a piece of him there with me and it's just cool to, to go and run with that top, with his face on it. , and then, yeah, I've got another one, which, you know, my, my mate has, , got like this.

He designed this bright green top with a, a carter in character of, you know, a guy doing strong arms and yeah. So that's just a, a bit of an in-joke between us. And so I like to wear that top. Um, and, and pretty much all the tops that I have have got some sort of significance like that. So it's not just about wearing something that's comfy and, and that does the job, but it's also, you know, you've got that memory attached to it or, you know, it might just give you that little bit of motivation to, to get through the run.

So, , sure. Yeah. That, that's probably my, my favorite bit 

of gear. I love that. Yeah. That's awesome. A little, a little mood booster if you Yeah. Or needing a, needing a little bit, you can look down and, you know, just a little bit of a smile can shift your energy in that moment. So that's, that's awesome. Yeah.

I love that. , okay. And so now my true last question that I always ask everyone, , is just if you can give your. You know, your 18 year old self,  a piece of advice, whether it's running related or, , or not, what would that be? What piece of advice would you, would you give to your younger, younger Phil 

self?

, so when I was 18, that was probably around the time that I stopped running. Um, I, I would've given myself the advice to stick with running. Just keep being consistent. Even if you're only getting out there for for one K or two Ks or, you know, whatever it is. Just, just get out there and be consistent with it.

It doesn't have to be fast, it doesn't have to be fast. Just get it done. And, you know, doesn't matter how busy you are in a day, you, you're still gonna be able to find, you know, 10 or 15 minutes to get out there and even, even just do one K. And as long as you're consistent with it, then you're gonna notice improvement.

Yeah. So just to start small, I think yeah. Hearing this, this podcast, people are hopefully inspired or,  in awe or, I mean, but hopefully you can, anyone listening to this who is curious about dipping their toes and, , endurance running space, you have to start, start somewhere. Right. And I think that's exactly where, where, where you can start with 15 minutes or just just one mile or two miles.

You have to, you're not gonna have a. A 26.2, you know, base right off the bat. So to just, to start, start super small. , we're not all gonna have Phil's base right off the bat, so we gotta work our way up, right? 

That's it. Yeah. I, I was running, I was running those sort of five k to, to marathon distance for probably, yeah.

Five years before I, I got into the ultras, so just, yeah, I, I spent that time building up my base before I, yeah. Got into that really long stuff. 

And you did the four, you know, just to remind people too, like you did that from four, four hours to 12 hours. So it is possible to also make that. That leap, that big leap.

But yeah, having some, some confidence runs and, , doing the mental training, I think that's outside of the running, like the cold showers or like those, , the hard things throughout the day can increase your confidence so that you can feel like you're able to make that jump from a four hour race to a 12 hour race.

You know? So it's just push outside your comfort zone. People you just don't know. You don't know what's possible. Yeah. Right. You didn't, you didn't think you'd be here when you were 12, did you? Yeah, 

definitely. Definitely not. I didn't think I'd even be running a marathon. , yeah. But yeah, here I 

am. So impressive.

Well, congratulations on, , the world record  I mean, that's such an amazing feat and I enjoyed hearing about it and the fact that you, ,  ran with Sam and there's just that whole piece of the story just makes it just even more impressive.  Thank you so much for, for sharing your story and being on the podcast, Phil.

I appreciate it. Yep. 

Thanks for having me. It was good to chat. 

Awesome. All right everybody. Well, if you are still with us, hopefully you are, make sure to go to ReadySet mindful.com. , pick up that athlete for, or pick up that checklist for athletes who are overthinkers. That's gonna be super helpful for you.

, and make sure to check out Phil's links. I will link them in the show notes. You can go and follow him. , he's on Instagram at, at Phil Gore, right? 

Yeah, Phil dot Gore Ultrarunner. 

Okay. Phil dot Gore, those in the show notes. Okay. All right. Bye everybody.

 Thanks so much for joining us on this episode of the ReadySet Mindful Podcast. With me, Kerri Bicskei, if you like what you hear, make sure to like, comment and subscribe to the podcast. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram or visit ReadySet mindful.com for free resources, courses, and other ways to work with me.

Until next time, be well. Stay mindful.