Malcolm talks to a funeral director who's been working with politicians to get bereavement education onto the national curriculum for school children in England. John talks about why it's important, what it would look like, and his own experience of childhood bereavement.
Malcolm talks to a funeral director who's been working with politicians to get bereavement education onto the national curriculum for school children in England. John talks about why it's important, what it would look like, and his own experience of childhood bereavement.
Malcolm Flanders [00:00:05] Welcome to the Partnership Podcast. One thing funeral directors understand better than almost anyone is supporting people through bereavement. For so many of you, the work only begins at the time of need, and aftercare is equally important for supporting your families. Today I'm talking to a funeral director who's been meeting with MPs about why bereavement awareness should be added onto the national curriculum. John Adams, from Shropshire's Perry and Phillips, explains why it's so vital, and what he's been doing to push politicians in that direction.
Malcolm Flanders [00:00:44] Now. I'm delighted to say that John is with me today. Morning, John.
John Adams [00:00:49] Morning Malcolm.
Malcolm Flanders [00:00:50] How are you, sir?
John Adams [00:00:51] Yes, I'm very well, thank you. Thank you for having me on your podcasts.
Malcolm Flanders [00:00:54] No, it's a pleasure. And I should also mention that we've got the NAFD conference and AGM weekend coming up in Wales, and you're about to become the national president of NAFD as well. So you've got a busy year ahead of you, I guess.
John Adams [00:01:07] Yes, I have. Been looking forward to the challenges and learning more about the industry. So yeah, it's going to be an exciting 12 months.
Malcolm Flanders [00:01:15] Okay, fantastic. All right. Firstly, in terms of introducing yourself, and your business, to our listeners, I think it'd be quite helpful to understand where your business has come from. I know it's been around since 1835, and your own experience is quite varied too, including time in the Royal Navy. So could you give us a whistle stop tour of all that history?
John Adams [00:01:37] Yes, certainly, Malcolm. So the company background, first of all, so, Perry and Philips, as you've mentioned, 1835 established. I'm fifth generation, but it's my grandfather who purchased Perry and Philips in the sixties. He purchased Perry and Phillips, which was his then competitor. My grandfather, and his father, was doing it from their family home in Worfield, which was probably a ten minute journey into the main town. And he was a carpenter, that was his primary role. Funerals wasn't his prime job, and obviously, as the industry has evolved, his job evolved.
John Adams [00:02:13] And my father came into it in the late seventies. He served in the forces as well. And then I came into it. I left school at the age of 16, had a year here, and then decided I was too young to be in a mortuary. I needed to go and see the world. I just felt like I needed to get out of the town as well. My plan was to do only four years in the Royal Navy, and I ended up doing eight years. I finished as electronic warfare director, and that was to do with anti-ship missile defence, reporting to the captain every day about any threats that we might face as a ship. So yeah, it's quite interesting and very different to what I'm doing now.
Malcolm Flanders [00:02:48] And just a follow up question there, to what extent did that time in the Royal Navy set you up, or indeed help you, in managing a small business?
John Adams [00:02:58] So I gained a lot from the Royal Navy, a lot more than I ever thought I would. And I think it's just general life, about people, about problems, issues, and how you communicate. My leadership course that I carried out, it was fascinating and I learnt when to step forwards, when you need to step forwards, also when to keep quiet as well. It was quite important, which I think some people struggle with. So yeah, I learnt a lot about myself, I learnt about my self resilience, and I learnt about how to deal with pressure, being in a war zone, having a missile coming at us, which did happen on occasion, about keeping your cool, and relying on the training you've had, to ensure that you're safe and protected.
Malcolm Flanders [00:03:45] That's good. Yeah, yeah, I understand all of that. Blimey. Okay, well, look, so turning to bereavement support, it's always been a fundamental part of what families need. And it feels like the funeral profession is more aware of it than ever. Is it fair to say people are recognising that it's more important than ever now, especially given how the pandemic shook up the grieving process for so many?
John Adams [00:04:08] Yeah, it's a great question. I think the answer to this, I don't think people, following what's happened in the last two or three years, I still don't think people see the importance of why we have a funeral service. And I think that's a responsibility we have as an industry to really highlight the importance of why we have a funeral. We don't just have funerals to give ourselves jobs. It's done to find a platform to allow people to move forward without bereavements and grief. And that's the whole purpose of it. Give people education, give people information, and then it's up to them. But as long as the communication's clear, and people know what they're getting, that's what I think is important.
Malcolm Flanders [00:04:45] So, I mean, if we put ourselves in your shoes, in your business, at Perry and Philip's, around aftercare, and let's say that you've had three or four funerals that week, maybe more, what do you do as a business, or as individuals, to kind of support your families post the funeral?
John Adams [00:05:05] So there's two parts to this for what we do. So firstly, we have a bereavement councillor, who's part of the team here now, and she provides free of charge counselling service to people. So she'll make contact with every family, to see how they're getting on, and do you need any more support? Just a general catch up conversation. So that's a really good tool to have, and it's really effective.
John Adams [00:05:30] The other part of this is, if you get the arrangements correct, and the arrangements right, and listen to people, what they need, and they put everything into that funeral service that they need to, that will set them up in a strong position when they start their grieving process after the funeral. It's when they leave the funeral service, and they haven't done the things that they needed to do, that's when they can actually be in a bad place. So it's preparation again. And that comes back to the national curriculum again, taking responsibility and preparation. Even at a younger age, giving children tools, which will hopefully see them through for the rest of their lives as well.
Malcolm Flanders [00:06:07] Now, you've mentioned that couple of times now, so let's dig into that little bit, and we know you're engaging politically on this, to get bereavement awareness onto the national curriculum. So why is that so important? Can you give any examples of how it's going to benefit people then?
John Adams [00:06:22] Well, firstly, I lost my mum at the age of 12, and there is an element of isolation when you lose somebody, especially at a young age, because your peers, your friends in your class, don't know how to talk to you. And things haven't really improved throughout schools, and that's because... and I know that from feedback I'm getting from questionnaires I've given around to numerous schools. Some schools are very proactive, and have some brilliant processes in place. Some schools still do nothing.
John Adams [00:06:53] So it's about providing a platform, and a net, over the whole education system to ensure that there is something in place across all schools. Not just proactive schools, where you have a good teacher that's really caring, and knows how it communicates, and that will help the friends in the class, understand what that person's going through. Knowing some simple communication techniques, how to speak to that person, "are you okay?" It's okay to ask that question. It'll help the individual who's lost a loved one, knowing that people do actually care, and people are wanting the best for you.
John Adams [00:07:25] It'll help the teachers, who sometimes are out their depth, and are too busy to deal with it. And they want to help, but they're not sure what to say. It will give them some signposting of where to go to for that support. And finally, which is, I think, as important, it's from a society point of view. It's having an understanding about what this actually means. Throughout the Covid pandemic, we were all getting home, and your 6:00 news comes on, and you see all these numbers on the screen, it's about what each number represents, and the families behind each number. So it's a bit more compassion and empathy.
Malcolm Flanders [00:08:00] And does that mean you are helping with the content, do you think, in terms of what will go into the national curriculum?
John Adams [00:08:09] Yeah. So what I proposed to the MPs, which they are supportive of, is that we have the same concept as sex education. So a third party will go in to have a talk to children, of different ages and different age groups, about death, about bereavements. And it's not to discuss the type of coffin, it's to discuss about when someone passes away, what associated feelings might come with that. And the bottom line is, it's always going to be different. But to explore these conversations, and feelings, and to really highlight what someone might be going through.
Malcolm Flanders [00:08:47] Yeah. And I suppose, you know, those of us who have children know that they can react and respond in different ways. They can be very sensitive, and in some ways, they can deal with it if they've got a structure, and in a far better way than sometimes parents can. So I guess it's giving them the techniques, isn't it, as to how to handle it?
John Adams [00:09:06] Yeah. I think sometimes parents can be too close, and we can try and protect our children too much. But the conversations that I've had, it's remarkable how children do respond. The amount of times have gone to someone's house to arrange a funeral, and I'll say, "oh, you've mentioned you've got a daughter, or a son?" "Oh, yeah, they're upstairs." So why don't they come down for the arrangements? I promise you, I won't say anything that's going to cause offence or deeply upset them. And, they're a little bit cautious about it. Then I'll get them down, and I'll have a chat to them, and then half an hour's gone by and they're really communicating. And I've seen it from the start to the end, that journey. And it's huge, how it can help a child. For a child who's 10, 12, 14, for that child, their life really, they go to school and come home, but realistically, their parents, or siblings, are their life. So why wouldn't we involve them?
Malcolm Flanders [00:10:04] That's a very good point, John. Thank you. So how has progress been then? I understand you've had some good engagement from some of the MPs you've spoken to so far. So in your eyes, is it frustrating, or do you think you're starting to see the sort of end of the tunnel now?
John Adams [00:10:20] Well, if I explain what's happened so far, I wrote to the education secretary last year and I had a very slow response from them. But they actually put my local MP, Phillip Dunne, who's been really supportive, and he came in and had an hour and a half with me here, and discussed it all in great depth, and he's very much behind it. He's given it a case reference, and he's now discussing it in parliament, which is great. And there's other MPs involved as well now, the NAFD are heavily involved now as well. And I've been invited to speak at the House of Commons in July, I believe it is, to again discuss it to the APPG meeting about why it needs to be incorporated into the national curriculum.
Malcolm Flanders [00:11:12] Excellent. So that means you physically, you're actually going to have to go down to London and meet them all down there?
John Adams [00:11:17] That's correct.
Malcolm Flanders [00:11:19] And presumably, is that a presentation or will it be a discussion, where you kind of share your thinking and your views on the way forward?
John Adams [00:11:26] I'll try to do a bit of both really, what we're doing today, and also to get more stats, such as children, up to the age of 18, 80% of the population will have suffered a close loss in their lives. So by giving this information, these stats, and the questionnaire, as I mentioned, I've been giving out to all the schools, it's providing the actual data to prove what we're saying is correct.
Malcolm Flanders [00:11:52] Wow. Okay. Well, good luck with that. And we'll all look forward to hearing how you get on in July, onwards. Maybe we'll do another podcast later in the year, right, just to see how you got on with it?
John Adams [00:12:03] That'll be great, Malcolm, yeah, thank you.
Malcolm Flanders [00:12:04] Okay. Right, improving bereavement awareness would be a welcome change at a time when it feels like a lot is happening all around us, both in the UK and the world. More broadly, how do you see the future of funeral directing from your own perspective? How optimistic are you about the future? Sorry, it's quite a big question that, I know.
John Adams [00:12:23] Yeah. Yeah, it's a big question, but it's a good question. So I'm an optimistic person. I'm a very positive person. But I think, as I said right at the start of this talk, we have the responsibility now to give the information, and educate the communities around us. And if we do that, it's going to be a very positive future for us all. And again, with this, it's about transparency. So with the CMA ruling last year, we need to see that as an opportunity, and a positive, and to utilise that, and really promote about what we're doing, and show people. I mean, if someone wants to see our mortuary, I'll allow that to happen. Obviously we'd be covering up names, nobody will see any deceased. But the point is it's about transparency. We should really show people about, there's nothing to be scared off, and all of the work we do, and how it helps people.
Malcolm Flanders [00:13:13] Excellent. Thank you. Got a final question for you. Now, I know Jo Parker of Abbey Funerals has just taken on the presidency of SAIF Association, so I've got a similar question I asked there a few weeks ago. How are you preparing your business and yourself to cope with that 12 months, in terms of time away, and all the extra things you're going to need to think about?
John Adams [00:13:36] It all comes down to time management. And I think the question you asked at the start about the Royal Navy, and what I gained from that, I did learn about time management and that's critical. Preparing and being aware of where I'm going to be next week, being ahead of the game all the time. My wife's very supportive. The children are both young, so yeah, I've got a good support network around me. So it's a case of giving it my all for 12 months and hopefully do some good.
Malcolm Flanders [00:14:05] Fantastic. Well, best of luck for the next 12 months. And John, thank you ever so much for sharing with us the progress you've made, in terms of getting this onto the national curriculum. And best of luck. We look forward to hearing how you get on with that.
John Adams [00:14:18] Thank you so much, Malcolm, for your time. Really appreciate being invited on.
Malcolm Flanders [00:14:22] Pleasure.
Malcolm Flanders [00:14:28] Thank you for listening to the Partnership Podcast. Keep an eye on John's progress, and you can contact me if you have any questions or want to get involved. You can also contact me if you want to contribute, or suggest anything for the podcast at malcolm.flanders@goldencharter.co.uk. And don't forget we'll also be at the NFE this year, so do come along and say hello. All of our previous episodes are available online at goldencharter.buzzsprout.com, including interviews with bereavement professionals like Dr. Bill Webster and Catherine Betley. You can also find and subscribe to us on most podcast apps. Thanks again and I'll talk to you next time on the Partnership Podcast.