British Baker Outrages Mexico

A critique of Mexican bread by a British baker has sparked social media outrage in the country. Joining Latin America Correspondent Jon Bonfiglio to make sense of the story is Dr. Chris Wood from Mexico's National Laboratory for Advanced Microscopy. 

Transcript

Jon Bonfiglio: 0:01

Hi everyone, welcome back to Latin America Correspondent, where today we bring you news of a controversy. A controversy, I tell you. News in Mexico this week has featured diatribes related to the story that a well-known British baker said on a podcast that Mexico does not really have much of a bread culture. Bang. Richard Hart, owner of the Green Rhino bakery in Mexico City, didn't just critique the country's bread, but he also said that the country's wheat was not good, completely highly processed, full of additives. And its filled rolls, famous tortas here in Mexico, were made on these white, ugly rolls that are pretty cheap and industrially made. It's not a new statement by uh Richard Hart. He actually made the comments months ago, but they achieved prominence a couple of weeks ago after they were widely shared online, generating outrage, opprium, and many, many column inches, in particular at comments considered to be food colonialism. One commentator even used the dreaded CC reference, the one-stop shop for colonialist accusations, by saying that Hart was wanting to be the Christopher Columbus of bread. Hart has since replied, issuing an online apology, saying, Since I moved to Mexico, I fell in love with the people and this city. However, my words do not reflect that respect. Did not reflect that respect. In this country, I am a guest, and I forgot to act like one. Now, as you all know, here at Latin America Correspondent, we'd like to get to the heart of a story. So joining us today, we have Dr. Chris Wood from the National Laboratory of Advanced Microscopy in Mexico, who is British, as you'll hear from his accent in a moment, but has lived in Mexico for over 20 years and is, I feel, uniquely placed personally, if perhaps not scientifically, although we may get on to that, to give us his perspective on the issue. Chris, welcome to the show.

Chris Wood: 1:49

Thanks, Jon. It's great to be here, and uh I will do my best to uh impart my knowledge based on my Mexican bred experiences.

Jon Bonfiglio: 1:59

Yes, and hopefully without offending an entire nation. Um Chris, can we just start with a controversy? Uh where did you first come across it? Where did it first reach your attention? And what's your what's your take on it?

Chris Wood: 2:11

Well, I came across it reading uh a report in the Garden newspaper, and I mean these things bubble up every now and then. Um there's there seems to be a constant cycle of these um offense-taken moments where somebody makes uh a misjudged comment regarding some aspect of uh Mexican culture, and then and then as usual, all hell breaks loose. So um I think it's a storm in a key teacup personally. Um bread in Mexico is uh something that everyone eats all the time, but it's not the key carbohydrate, is it? We're talking about tortillas here. So so really uh if he'd offended tortillas, I think probably, you know, that was really, really, really skating on thin ice. Taking a shot at bread, possibly not well advised, but um I think I think there's plenty we can get our teeth into there, so to speak.

Jon Bonfiglio: 3:06

Yeah, I mean it is, I guess to my mind, a little bit if you were to sort of switch the roles, if you were to imagine um sort of uh I don't know, Mexican living in Britain or somewhere else, criticizing an aspect of of British culture. I mean, maybe these days it would reach the news, but but generally speaking, it wouldn't um it wouldn't be as much of an issue. I think there is that sort of sense that punching down is never or the perception of punching down is never um uh a particularly a particularly good look. And of course, it does play into the sort of the standard um historical stereotypes of um foreigners, predominantly white foreigners, coming over to um to in this case, uh Latin America and then criticizing something, but criticizing it by not really understanding it, uh, rather than actually just uh sort of regarding it as being um a sort of a parallel culture. Of course, breads, uh which you know we're speaking to you in the UK, uh breads between the two countries are pretty different. Can you just give us your perspective on, I guess, the two the two different um food cultures as regards bread in Mexico and the UK and how they how they how they maybe have gone off on different evolutionary strands?

Chris Wood: 4:21

Yes, well, I mean bread in the bread in the UK is obviously extremely fundamental, has been part of the culture, Northern European culture, through through wheat being a primary carbohydrate for millennia. And so there's been uh a huge uh uh cultural sort of um uh build-up of bread technology, bread use, and different forms of actually manipulating wheat into a baked form. In Mexico, obviously, that uh culture arrived with the with the conquistadores. It's a very much a European uh wheat is a European carbohydrate and uh an Asian carbohydrate. So it arrived with the with the Spanish, and and really since then it has always, I guess, always been at maybe at the heart of a tension in Mexico between the more the the extremely traditional uh food law, which is obviously based around uh corn, maize, and um this more imported uh tech uh technical techniques and technology, which really uh really exploded in the Porfiriato, which was uh around the turn of the previous century, around 1900, a bit before, a bit after, um, when all things European was seen as being somewhat uh uh more advanced, more better. And Porfirio, who was the president at the time, was had advisors called the scientists, the científicos. And they advised and actually came to the conclusion that perhaps one of the reasons that Mexico is being held back in his development was was this reliance on maize and that and that wheat was a far superior foodstuff. And so uh Porfilio actually invited, had a deliberate policy of inviting European bakers to come to Mexico and open uh bakeries. And actually you will find that there are there are bakeries now, a very, very common occurrence on the on on the streets and in the neighborhoods of Mexico. And this is something that is probably more prevalent in Mexico than it is in the UK at the minute. I would say there are bakeries in the UK, there that there are many, many bakeries in the in the UK, but they tend to be these days more sort of boutique affairs, uh, not universally. And most of our bread comes from supermarkets or from supermarket bakeries in the UK. In Mexico, I would say that the there are supermarket level breads. Bimbo is one of the biggest companies, uh, in it, which is one of the main industrial bakers in Mexico and also around has has a huge export market. But there is still a much more local tradition of bakeries, and I think those need to be very should be very much respected because they are serving local needs, local communities. And that's something that's uh become part of the culture really since, as I say, maybe a hundred, a hundred and fifty years ago. So isn't it I wouldn't say it's as well entrenched, but it's certainly been around long enough to have developed its own strong traditions, including many of the festival breads, such as the the the Day of the Dead uh bread, the Dio de Muertos, the Pan de Muerto, the the bread of the dead, also the roscas, which is very much a uh an Iberian tradition, but it's very, very strong in Mexico. So there are these traditions that have taken hold and they are adapted and respected here within Mexico.

Jon Bonfiglio: 7:59

Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned those, because I was actually going to say that Mexican culture has sort of linked particular festivities to to bread culture. You mentioned Panamerto, of course, and upcoming now on the related to the three kings at the beginning of January, you have the Rosca de Reyes, which is not only linked culturally to a particular date, but also has this kind of um uh I apologize in advance for what I'm about to say, this peculiar tradition of having uh sort of plastic toys hidden within the bread. Um, and it's sort of considered to be, well, of course you don't want to swallow it, but it's considered to be something of a prize when you uh when you uh gnash on one and pull a plastic soldier or something out. My understanding is that the culture emerges from the hiding of the baby Jesus from Herod, and that sort of transposes across to the bread, but undoubtedly culturally important. Also, just to pick up on what you said about Portofirio Díaz, a really interesting figure which uh we haven't really spoken about much on the on the podcast, but I think we should probably do an episode on at some point because he was obviously, of course, a hugely important figure in Mexico in the first couple of decades of the well, late 19th century, early 20th century, in power for more than 30 years, and he was forced to resign by the Mexican Revolution in 1911. And then uh what you were saying about this sort of his sense that everything European was a class above, um, he went to exile in France, where he lived for a few years prior to his death in in 1915. So, as you say, even though bread is not of indigenous, sort of uh ingrained historic culture, it is one of those traditions that has become, I think, really important to me to modern Mexico and Mexico's sense of of itself. As with I think all forms of cuisine, I would I would guess. Chris, would you would you agree with that that um that just food in Mexico is really important as regards self-identification for Mexico and Mexicans?

Chris Wood: 9:57

Way more than important. I um I I have yet to be at a gathering of any size of uh Mexicans, be it family or friends, where the conversation does not turn to food and within, usually quite rapidly. It's it's it's the the equivalent of the weather in the UK. Everyone is allowed to hold an opinion about the weather. Everyone says, Oh, why is it that British people talk about the weather so much? Well, it's an uncontroversial subject that that brings us all together. In Mexico, food is the weather. Everyone holds an opinion about food, everyone has very strong opinions about food, but everyone can share a story about some uh you know, secret recipe or some corner of Mexico that they visited where this particular style of food was just a little bit different and was actually so much tastier. So um it's the glue, it's the social glue that that holds uh Mexicans together. It really is. It's it's um it cannot be overstated the importance of it. It's uh food is is and so it's so varied. Mexico, very big country, very big population. And again, you I have been on a journey where we stopped for for lunch, we were driving through the mountains, and all of a sudden all the tortillas have a light green colour. And and that turns out in that particular area they add a a sort of a they grind up a pea flower into the tortilla, and then you drive on another couple of hours, and that's no longer the case. So there are such extraordinarily local traditions based around uh all of the all of the culture of food in Mexico that makes it endlessly fascinating. There's always something to discover and there's always something to talk about. So social glue, uh companionship, and shared experience, food is actually where it's at in Mexico. It cannot be overstated.

Jon Bonfiglio: 11:52

Well, Chris, I don't think you said anything controversial, so I doubt you're gonna have any issues getting back into the country when you return from the UK in the next couple of weeks. So I want to say thank you very much for your time. Of course, uh Merry Christmas to you and uh and one and all. And uh yeah, um enjoy, if that's the right word, the uh the equivalent across the water of British, stodgy, characterless uh food over the holidays.

Chris Wood: 12:21

Thank you very much for give having this opportunity. I it's wonderful to speak uh and to share, share these experiences. And yes, my stomach is very much looking forward to to my return. Um, however, you know, there are always compensations here as well. So uh seeing family is is is is always wonderful. And sharing the food, that's the point, even though it may be somewhat different and somewhat less uh, shall we say, uh flavorful than what we might be experiencing in Mexico, it's the company that matters. That's the most important thing at this time of year. Amazing. Enjoy that for taking kidney pie.