Global Witness Special Report on Guatemala - with Toby Hill

Global Witness' March 2026 report on Guatemala examines how criminalisation and online smear campaigns work together to target and silence indigenous leaders and anti-corruption efforts. This special interview with report author Toby Hill looks at the report, the ongoing situation in Guatemala, and the work of Global Witness. 

Toby Hill is an investigative journalist researching how corruption and impunity fuel environmental crimes and human rights abuses. He has worked in South and Central America, particularly Paraguay, Nicaragua and Guatemala, and led investigations for organisations including Earthsight and Global Witness.

The Global Witness report is available here:

https://globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/land-and-environmental-defenders/weaponising-social-media-how-indigenous-leaders-and-climate-activists-are-smeared-and-criminalised-in-guatemala/

The book referenced on Guatemala by Toby Hill is Bitter Fruit: The Story of the American Coup in Guatemala (1982) by Stephen Schlesinger and Stephen Kinzer - a classic investigative account of the 1954 CIA-backed overthrow of Guatemalan President Jacobo Arbenz. 

Transcript

Jon Bonfiglio 0:00

Hi everyone, welcome back to Latin America Correspondent, where today I'm very happy to say that we're joined by Toby Hill, investigator and land and environmental defender with Global Witness. Toby is an investigative journalist researching uh corruption and impunity above all and how uh they fuel environmental crimes and human rights abuses. He's worked predominantly in South and Central America, particularly Paraguay, Nicaragua, and Guatemala, that we're gonna be talking about in a little bit. And he's led investigations for organizations including EarthSight and Global Witness. Uh hey Toby, welcome to the show.

Toby Hill 0:36

Hi, hi, great to be here, Jon. Thanks for having me.

Jon Bonfiglio 0:39

Um a pleasure, Toby. It's uh this is going to be really fascinating, I think, to do this deep dive into Guatemala, partly because the report that you've uh authored is really interesting, but also because actually, despite the fact that we focus on Latin America, Guatemala does get short shrift. It does it is actually um criminally a country that we don't really uh mention and focus on too much, especially given the sort of the geopolitical complexities that we're that we're um currently uh experiencing, which means that we sort of are focusing a lot more regionally necessarily at the moment than being able to give different specific places a uh a magnifying glass. Um, as I say, we're going to focus on this recent report in a minute, but maybe first, can you just give us a sense of the work that Global Witness does and and your role within that, uh, please?

Toby Hill 1:29

Sure, yeah. And I mean, I yeah, I'd say, you know, first of all, uh, in response to your reflections on Guatemala, there, that it is a it is a particularly kind of complex country, uh, and you're really complex kind of um uh interactions between state institutions and its own history and and criminal groups. Uh, so it's it it it takes some understanding, but it's also such a fascinating country because it is a majority indigenous country. There's still incredibly strong indigenous mine culture and mine organizations that play play a huge role in the political culture as well. So it's a fascinating country to focus on. Um but yeah, and uh yeah, Global Witness uh is a British NGO, a London-based uh NGO that focuses on uh human rights abuses, environmental crimes, um, and uh has a has a global perspective on this. Um and it's and I I work it Global Witness works across a number of issues, uh particularly climate and fossil fuels uh and also forests. But it also I I I it's also particularly well known for its work on land and environmental defenders. It publishes a report annually which seeks to kind of document all the uh land and environmental defenders, all the environmental defenders who have been killed in the past year to kind of keep a record of those killings and also to provide some analysis uh in terms of which countries have seen the most attacks, what the the principal drivers of attacks on land and environmental defenders are. And that's the work that I'm engaged with is within their land and environmental defenders team, particularly focused on Latin America. So that can involve quite a lot of work with indigenous communities, campesino communities, uh, and and and other environmental activists.

Jon Bonfiglio 3:23

Um again, just just to stick on this for a moment. I think it's it is really interesting. This um the importance of recording, the making um certain issues and statistics and incidents a matter of historical record. Of course, we're seeing this um fact-based evidence being attacked all over the place at the moment. But maybe could you just speak a little bit to that motivation, to the importance of gathering data and publishing as a matter of record, um, in that it might serve not just as um a sort of a baseline recounting of what takes place in historicizing, but also potentially as a means of future protection for a lot of the individuals affected.

Toby Hill 4:07

Documentation and and uh and recording uh the facts of what's happened and the facts of human rights abuses is a fundamental, uh absolutely fundamental part of human rights work, of course. Um uh to perhaps the easiest way to illustrate this is to think uh uh is to think about more extreme situations, you know, kind of very authoritarian situations. For example, I uh I worked in in Nicaragua, which I'm sure your listeners will know is a particularly brutal uh uh dictatorship, verging on the totalitarian now. And I was there through 2018 when there were large-scale protests against the uh Ortega government there, uh, which the government dealt with by uh killing hundreds of protesters on the streets, dozens of students and teenagers, uh, you know, arresting protest leaders, torturing protest leaders, forced confessions. Um, and after they'd successfully crushed the protests and retaken control of the streets, their next aim was to control the narrative, you know, to eliminate any record of the crimes against humanity, uh as the UN has put it, that they committed in order to maintain their grip on power. So fundamentally, in order for there to be any justice, for there to be any accountability uh for those kind of crimes, those kind of abuses of power, there has to be a record. There has to be a document of what's happened. And and those responsible will seek to um to eliminate that, to stamp that out, to erase that. So uh that that kind of record, keeping that kind of documentation is is fundamental for justice and and all human rights worth.

Jon Bonfiglio 5:51

Yeah, I I sort of feel that we have an innate sense that control this obsession with controlling the narrative is very much of our times, especially through um uh the avenues uh in particular the use and misuse of of social media. But of course it goes back as far as uh autocracies exist, um, controlling the narrative of what uh of what takes place, of what took place. Um, it just so happens that now it it does seem to be very front and center. And I know it's a it's a big part of the report that you've just uh you've just issued. So maybe we can just come to uh to Guatemala. Uh, I mean, again, a lot a lot of you out there listening will be aware of of this uh country which borders Belize uh and Mexico in Central America. It's of course a country engaged in a long struggle against corruption and impunity, uh, both deeply rooted in its history. Uh and uh in this recent report, Toby, which you authored where and published by Global Witness, you look at this uh how this struggle and attempts to silence anti-corruption and indigenous activists are sort of extended into the digital digital sphere via targeted disinformation and smear campaigns. And it does um seem to me reading the report that almost what we're seeing take place in Guatemala, and not to say that it's not taking place in other um territories as well, but what is taking place in Guatemala is almost a classic template for the misuse of social media for um not just to sort of quiet uh criticism, but also to criminalize the authors of resistance.

Toby Hill 7:33

I I think you're absolutely right, and that's uh precisely why we chose to focus on Guatemala for this piece of research. Uh, we wanted to look at how uh land environmental defenders were being targeted uh on social media and how disinformation and smear campaigns were being used as a tool of repression. Again, specifically land environmental defenders, um which is something of a new frontier. It's you know, you you these are often more remote communities uh who traditionally may have been less online or less digitally connected, but that's that's changed a lot in uh in recent years in Latin America. And so uh and and we chose Guatemala because it it did seem to us to be somewhere that uh had quite a had seen in recent years, and I can go into the reasons for this, uh quite a sophisticated use of social media uh for for that for those kind of oppressive purposes.

Jon Bonfiglio 8:32

Yeah, and um you sort of break up the the structure of the report into um those individuals, activists, defenders who resisted the attempted coup in 2023, and then land activists who are attacked for pursuing land lane land claims, uh which is uh, I mean, that's not specific to any kind of year. That's been a story that's been going on since time immemorial. Um, and then you sort of you come to the Who, uh, which uh it would be interesting to talk about as well. Could you make could we maybe just go back to 2023 and um the election of Bernardo Arévalo, current uh president in in Guatemala? Why was that event and what took place around the election in 2023, why was that such a such a um a visceral manifestation of what it is that you're talking about in terms of these attacks?

Toby Hill 9:27

Yes, uh brilliant. That's and that's that's that's very much the uh the the kind of starting point for the report. I think um just to frame why that was such an important moment in in Guatemala, uh I'll very briefly give a little bit of context to it. Um and and and and why that was such a rebirth of hope uh for Guatemalans. Um prior to that, uh from about 2007, there was a very interesting experiment that had been that was tried in Guatemala, which was the establishment of a anti-corruption body, a UN-backed anti-corruption body, uh called the International Commission Against Impunity in Guatemala, Sisi. And it was a really it was an attempt for you know the UN and and and the international community to support efforts within Guatemala to tackle the, as you put it, really deep-rooted culture of corruption in in the country. Um, you know, uh the corruption really has specific deep roots in in Guatemala, fueled by criminal blocs which spawn from the vast military and intelligence forces that were that were built up during the 30-year armed conflict. Um and and and and this experiment, the the establishment of a uh of an anti-impunity uh commission back by the intermissional community, which then supported the building up of independent justice institute institutions, independent prosecutors, and and sort of capacitated their work uh in Guatemala, was hugely successful. It was, it was, it was really, you know, an example. Uh it became a real global example. There were, I can't remember the precise figures, but they're in the report. But there were dozens of criminal groups and the linked state officials wit ho exposed. I think there were there were more than 400 convictions, including former presidents, government ministers, military officials were convicted through this program. So there was this really successful anti-corruption uh effort that lasted for about 10 years from 2007 to 2017. Um then inevitably there was an elite pushback. There was a pushback by corrupt actors. Uh quite an interesting situation to look in. There was a a TV personality and comedian who was was unknown really as a politician, uh, but but but won power in um I can't remember exactly when 2017, 2018, called it called Jimmy Morales. And he turned out to be something of a Trojan horse. Uh he came into power and then he aligned himself with these corrupt interests and began dismantling uh this anti-corruption uh unit. Um and as part of that process of dismantling the unit uh and eventually kicking out uh its its kind of international um uh kind of justice officials who were who were spearheading that work, there was also a targeted campaign against Guatemalan judges and prosecutors who were working uh with that anti-corruption body and who'd who'd led some of this you know really uh trailblazing anti-corruption work. They'd done an amazing job at tackling people who previously seemed untouchable. Um and these these kind of pioneering justice officials, uh people like uh Juan uh Francisco Sandral, Erica Aifan, people we talk about in the report, they were targeted both uh with threats of criminalization and with really vicious and sustained and coordinated uh smear campaigns on social media. Um, and so that was that was the starting point. That's what gave us Guatemala as a focus because we'd seen smear campaigns and this kind of coordinated uh repressive tactic of coordinating smear campaigns and criminal charges together. And you you can you can intuit how that could work. Uh we that that that had become a sophisticated tactic tactic in Guatemala through this process. And essentially, dozens of justice officials, dozens of judges and prosecutors who'd who'd participated in this work um ended up fleeing into exile. There's a really good New Yorker article about about the uh the exiling of Guatemalan uh the Guatemala, you know, Guatemalan judges and prosecutors that anyone who's interested can look up, really recommended reading that. Um and so there'd been this, so I mentioned this ahead of talking about the Arévalo election, because it it there were there was this moment of you know real disappointment and disillusionment, and then the next person, the next president to power after uh after Jimmy Morales, the kind of the the the Trojan horse comedian, the next person to become president after that, Alejandro Giammattei, was also proved to be very aligned with with similar kind of corrupt actors and corrupt interests, uh, maintained the kind of dismantling of anti-corruption efforts, uh, supported uh the the kind of um the capture of key institutions, particularly the public prosecutor's office, by people who um who who acted uh in in the in the interest of those corrupt actors. And so by the time we got to 2023, there'd been this real uh regression, I suppose, um towards uh the capture of state institutions and justice institutions by corrupt interests, by those with ties to organized crime, by these by the old kind of elite vanguard of Guatemalan politics who've held power and and uh for for for many decades. Um you know, we could go back to the the CIA coup in 1954, I think, which is as so often has a uh has a kind of a triggering point for a lot of this. But um, and but so yes, to come back to 2023, the elections that year, uh they're you know, due to the can the the kind of reinstated capture and control of these interests over state institutions, democratic institutions, there was a lot of uh desesperanza, kind of hopelessness. There was a lot of uh, you know, several independent candidates, uh kind of progressive candidates for the presidency had been uh bad, had been kind of prohibited from standing ahead of those elections in kind of very shadowy legal moves. So there really wasn't a lot of optimism around those elections. And Bernardo Arévalo, uh, who's actually the son of Guatemala's first democratically elected president, um, and it's the second democratically elected president of Guatemala, who was overthrown in that 1954 Guatemalan coup, uh CIA coup. But Bernardo Arévalo is actually the son of the first Guatemalan uh uh democratically elected Guatemalan president. And he, surprisingly, despite that prominent history, uh had kind of flown under the radar ahead of the 2023 elections uh as a presidential candidate. Uh, you know, a month or so before the election, he was only polling or he was polling on less than 3%. His party had very little prominence, very little media coverage. And I think thanks to that, he kind of flew under the radar of the kind of interests that were seeking to eliminate, you know, candidates that could threaten the current status quo. Um but uh a few weeks before the election, there was this sudden surge in support for Arévalo, who was standing on a progressive, an anti-corruption, progressive, anti-impunity uh and pro-Indigenous rights uh platform. There was a sudden surge in support, and he ultimately uh won the first round, and then there was a huge battle for the second round and and lots of threats to kind of eliminate him, attempts to criminalize him, other members of his party. Uh, as I mentioned, the public prosecutor's office um was uh spearheaded a lot of those efforts. Um it's it the public prosecutors office comes up again and again as a a key, a key actor protecting and advancing corrupt interests in Guatemala. Um but the you know Guatemala's institutions just about held together. A second round vote was held, and a Level O won in a in a landslide. Uh so it was a it was a yeah, it was a kind of a real a real shock victory and a and a new wave of um I hope, a new kind of democratic spring in a sense for Guatemala. Um and then there was again, uh you can probably see the predict the trajectory of this. There were then six months of attempts to nullify that result, six months of attempts to overturn that election, again, led by the Public Prosecutor's Office, and particularly the Attorney General Consuelo Paulas, who's been uh sanctioned for corruption by by the EU and and and and by the State Department and uh and others, and um uh lots of uh sort of intense institutional battles within the institutional court with the within the Supreme Electoral Tribunal. But eventually a leveller was able to take power uh at the start of 2024. And a critical point here, and this is where you I mean I can imagine people listening might be wondering what the the land environmental defender angle in this is that we talked about initially. Um the that that that six-month period between Arévalo winning the presidential, the second round of the presidential election, maybe more like a four-month period to be too precise, and him taking power at the start of 2024, uh uh there were his the his victory, the the principal defenders, the principal resistance against attempts to overturn his victory was led by Guatemala's indigenous movements. Um Guatemala is a predominantly Mayan country, and despite uh the genocide that was perpetrated in the 80s uh by by the military dictatorship, despite uh brutal repression, obviously for hundreds of years, um, the Mayan Mayan communities have maintained really strong, not just cultures and identities, but also political structures and political organizations. Uh, and these these politics these indigenous structures and organizations were very quick to organize uh to resist and and and defend Arévalo's victory against these attempts to overturn it. So there were mass protests, marches uh in uh in Guatemala City. There was a uh a protest that lasted 106 days, 106-day picket outside the offices of the public prosecutor of the attorney general. Um and that resistance, that that that resistance led by indigenous organizations played an absolutely critical role in enabling Arévalo to take power at the start of 2024. Um so uh so yeah, I mean that's the that's the story of Arévalo uh came to power.

Jon Bonfiglio 20:46

I remember that period in 2023. Well, it was a really fraught period where it seemed as though uh the sort of the the the ongoing steps towards the election of Arévalo were were really uncertain amid this uh what felt like desperate orchestrated campaign by the state to ensure that he didn't he didn't take power. Uh Toby, just as a side note, I thought it was interesting that you mentioned 1954 in Guatemala because it does seem to me that it is of ongoing relevance, the sort of disinformation campaign around then President Jacobo Arbens. And not that I think we should get into it now, but I would uh recommend anybody who's listening to this who wants to sort of scratch the surface of of the events around um Jacobo Arbens in in 1954 to sort of investigate that read up on it as a as a baseline uh point of information, which continually, which on ongoing has ongoing implications, I think. Um today.

Toby Hill 21:43

I also just wanted to really brilliant, just to mention this the brilliant book, isn't there, Bitter Fruit, uh, which is a fantastic account of of uh the events around that CIQ. And and it was very interesting reading that as I worked on this. That absolutely dis there was a huge disinformation campaign essentially. To uh present Arbenz as a as a kind of Soviet agent uh rather than as a democratically elected left-leaning leader. Um and and that enabled this uh the the coup to happen. But sorry, you did say not at all.

Jon Bonfiglio 22:16

Uh we we'll uh we'll link to that book in the show notes, and just as we will, of course, link to the to the report too. Um I also just wanted to sort of uh bring up uh a little bit that it seems to me that through the long arc of history as well, what what you're saying about indigenous communities and land rights defenders is really interesting because um of course it's a story that goes way back. And actually, I think sometimes we miss a trick in seeing sort of political actors and economic actors and criminal groups differently, but it's pretty straightforward, I think, with any cursory analysis of the situation, especially in Latin America, seems to be, I mean, it exists in various parts of the world, of course, but it's it's particularly accentuated in in Latin America. That fundamentally criminal groups, uh, political, economic elites, and industrialists all want the same thing. They're motivated by the same thing, and global markets generally kind of agree. And the only real points of resistance to this, historic and ongoing resistance to this um vast, all-encompassing tide, are indigenous communities and land rights defenders. And so that's why you have these sort of overt attacks, not just on reputation, but often on on per on person. You mentioned Toby, of course, about the the high numbers of deaths that you record as well as part of um global witness in in these uh in these communities, and they're seen as being a sort of an annoying fly that uh that must be swatted out of the way in order for the world to continue to go about its business.

Toby Hill 23:58

I mean, I think that's I think there's a lot of truth in that. I think it it it can it can be more nuanced in certain contexts, and and you know, you can see a splintering of of interest between, you know, really specific kind of either authoritarian state actors who are interested in maintaining their control over the over the levers of state and and and that the capacity to kind of uh you know corruptly enrich themselves through that and and link to that kind of links to organized crime, and sometimes private sector actors who are also interested in access to international markets, access to international finance. And so you will sometimes see a splintering. For example, it happened in in Nicaragua in in in 2018 when COSEP, the main private sector body there, ended up joining the opposition and uh uh really and becoming uh a part of the kind of civil society resistance to the Ortega regime. And to some and ultimately, and it um they certainly can't be given, well, I mean, you know, not necessarily for me to say, but I I think a lot of Guatemalans would say they couldn't be given much credit in this. But ultimately, Guatemala's main private sector body, which is called CASIP, did eventually come round to supporting the Arévalo taking power. Uh, and I think that's maybe important to bear in mind because it gives a kind of a lever or maybe a way in which to influence uh uh elite decisions and elite actors that there can be some kind of splintering of interest between those different parts of the elite. But a lot of the time, you're right, they they they they coincide very closely and and and work to reinforce each other.

Jon Bonfiglio 25:29

There's um I mean Nicaragua in and of itself, as with Guatemala, is a fascinating case study which had some consistency with other Central America, but also is pretty unique in others. I'd love to have a conversation with you about that separately at at uh at some point. Um Toby, what are the central case studies? It'd be nice to um sometimes when we talk about these notions, we sort of lose sight of the humanity at center. One of the central case studies or individuals that you cite in the report is the case of Luis Pacheco. Um, could you maybe just give us a sort of a sense of who he is and his the accusations against him and uh how they were orchestrated in his imprisonment?

Toby Hill 26:13

Yeah, absolutely. I mean I I kind of pick up the thread of the narrative that we reached to there in in in 2023 when we see or 2024, Arévalo take power after this kind of Titanic battle within Guatemala's institutions and this intervention by indigenous groups. Uh and so Luis Pacheco is uh is a leader of perhaps the most the most prominent of those indigenous uh political structures. Uh or he was he was a leader at the at the time in uh uh in early 2024 or late 2023 uh when when the the protests were at their height. Uh he was uh he was a leader of an organization called the 48 Cantones, which uh is a Maya Quiche organization from Guatemala's Western Highlands, particularly from the department of Trotani Capan. And uh and that organization has a very strong political structure and has uh shown the capacity to intervene in in mainstream Guatemalan politics, uh in defense of of the rights of the of the Mayakiche people, um uh repeatedly, and they played a really critical role in spearheading uh this this resistance against attempts to overturn Arévalo's election. And Pacheco himself, yeah, he he he led that organization uh through that period uh and um yep played a key role in in organizing and convoking the protests. And then following Arévalo uh uh being sworn in and taking power, uh Pacheco uh crossed the lines as it were, and took on the role of Deputy Energy Minister, Deputy Minister for Sustainable Development uh Arévalo's government, you know, a role that you, as you can imagine, is very relevant to uh many many indigenous communities in in Guatemala in terms of uh you know, that have often faced land grabs or or destruction of key natural resources or elements of their of their territory because of big energy projects, hydroelectric projects, mining projects. So it was it was quite a symbolic appointment to bring him into that into that ministry and put him in that position uh by Arévalo. Um and then Luis Pacheco became a key case study for us because to then take the narrative on to the next stage. Um, as mentioned, the uh attempts to overturn the election had been led by uh Guatemala's Public Prosecutor's Office and by its Attorney General, Consuelo Paulas. And the first year of Arévalo being in power was really his party and his government's capacity uh to act and and and to make changes and to make an impact was really hamstrung by constant attacks, constant uh kind of lawfare, I suppose is the term we've come to use, uh, and the fact that they were continuously defending themselves against um sort of attempts at uh attempts at criminalization and so on. Um and then what we saw in 2025 was those tactics, those kind of those those those tactics of of criminalization uh supported by disinformation narratives to to kind of uh lay the groundwork for criminal charges against key actors, they were then turned against the leaders of that resistance in 2023. So um in uh in early 2025, uh Pacheco himself was working at home, you know, uh in his role as uh as Deputy Minister of Sustainable Energy, when there was a knock on the door and it was police, and they raided his home, searched his home, left for a couple of hours, came back and arrested him, and arrested another uh leader of the the 48 Cantonist the Maya Kice organization, uh Hector Chaklan. And both of them would were uh then uh uh uh uh tried and are faced uh facing charges of terrorism, of sedition, of illicit association. Uh and then that and then another key leader from uh another of um uh Guatemala's uh indigenous people, the the Kakchikel uh Esteban Toc was was arrested a couple of months later while he was driving driving to hospital for kidney treatment. He was pulled over and arrested. There'd been attempts to arrest uh a governor, an indigenous governor of Solala, which is uh Maya Kactriquel uh principally department. Um a leading uh another leading and another another key indigenous leader, particularly a kind of a land activist, he's been very engaged in uh something you alluded to earlier, which is the the ongoing uh struggle for for land rights for indigenous people uh and recuperation of territory, a lot of a lot of a lot of which was was lost uh through the armed internal armed conflict and through the the decades of military dictatorship. Another key leader, another key indigenous leader, um Leocadio Huracan was also arrested. Um so there was this kind of wave of arrests through 2025 of targeting people who'd led that resistance in in 2023, spearheaded by the by the by the Attorney General and the prosecutor's office. A kind of uh you know, an attempt to uh decapitate uh and also intimidate those organizations uh that had that had led that resistance. And Pacheco, uh who you asked about Luis Pacheco, is probably the most high-profile of the indigenous leaders who led that initial resistance and has then since been uh arrested and is facing, yeah, facing decades ostensibly, it could be decades in jail for for terrorism and other charges.

Jon Bonfiglio 32:27

It's interesting how terrorism is this uh is being used, misused so often as this sort of catch-all, unspecific and unsupported um charge. I think because it is so woolly um and is so much in the eye of the beholder, but also because it's almost the worst thing that you can throw at somebody uh in the hope that again again, as you say, that they do decades in in prison.

Toby Hill 32:52

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's it's a charge that you see uh again and again, and it is it's been used against uh pretty much all the people that uh we we talk about in our report.

Jon Bonfiglio 33:03

Toby, just want to say a big, big thank you. Um, just as regards the the report, which I know we haven't uh named as as yet, it's uh weaponizing social media, how indigenous leaders and climate activists are smeared and criminalized in Guatemala. That's now being published, and again we'll link to that in the show notes. Toby, an absolute pleasure to uh to speak to you, to to um hear your your report and your testimony, and hope to cross paths again with you soon.

Toby Hill 33:31

Brilliant. Thanks so much. And the very last thing I'd say is to bring this up to the current moment that is right now in Guatemala, the um appointment of the next attorney general is is taking place. The kind of decision of who to appoint to replace Consuelo Poras. And that decision will be made by May. So anyone interested in this can can follow that. It's a really it's a really critical moment. Uh, and uh an opportunity to kind of free Guatemala's justice system from the grip of these corrupt interests that have that have really uh that that have spearheaded so much of what we've talked about in this podcast. So that's something to look out for over the next month or so in Guatemala.

Jon Bonfiglio 34:08

Wait, wait a minute. How dare you throw hope onto the table at this late stage of the reporting? No, that's that's great to know. Much appreciated. We'll um yeah, we'll keep an eye on that and maybe we can have a chat around the appointment as well and see what see what happens. Thanks again, Toby.