England vs. Argentina in Historic World Cup Semi-Final: The Argentine Perspective

Latin America Correspondent Jon Bonfiglio speaks to Stig Abell for Times Radio. 

Transcript

Stig Abell 0:00

Of us will be watching and hoping, but it isn't just a game. The two countries have long been in dispute over the Falklands and fought a war over the islands in 1981. That history means FIFA and the FBI classified tonight's match as the highest risk of the tournament, and police in Atlanta are preparing for violence on the streets. The Latin American correspondent Jon Bonfiglio regularly comes on this program. He knows Argentina, Argentinian fans very well. Jon, morning to you. From an Argentinian point of view, just how tasty is this fixture in their minds?

Jon Bonfiglio 0:33

It's more tasty than peas in a dishwasher, I think it's worth saying. Look, I mean it's huge, right? And it's huge for England, but it's even bigger for uh for Argentina. I think there's a there's an interesting notion about Argentine identity, which is that, I mean, in large measure, Argentine identity is is kind of oppositional. It sort of sets itself against a number of different things. And one of the interesting things, I think, is that even outside of football, it's being Argentine is also not to be English. Um, and that of course has a lot to do with uh with with the Falklands and the death of a number of hundred soldiers uh during uh during the Falklands War. It's also worth remembering that England, the UK, Great Britain has had a number of conflicts, world wars, um uh you know, other interventions over the course of the last hundred years. For Argentina, the Falklands is the single war that they've had, that they've lost, and which accounts for, in their minds, 25% of their territory, which is still in the hands of colonialists. And I think this is interesting because it also relates to 1986 in the hand of God. Because for them, that wasn't cheating. For them, that was a kind of divine intervention just a few years after the Falklands War, which kind of brought a moral redress to what had taken place in 1982. And that's the belief, and that's the level of weight that goes into, of course, this um this fixture in 2026. But it's not a colonialist act, though, is it really?

Stig Abell 1:55

Because uh it was the islands weren't sort of occupied by Argentinians and then taken forcibly by by by British people. I mean, Argentina is a country that was colonized by Spain, wasn't it? Yeah, I'm not suggesting that that is. No, I'm just saying I mean I don't think you want, yeah.

Jon Bonfiglio 2:10

But from from an Argentine perspective, it very much is. I've been actually been keeping an eye on on um and comments uh across sort of media platforms in in Argentina for the last uh sort of 24 hours. And there's some interesting um statements which I'll just read a couple out to you because they're they're definitely not outliers, it's a kind of the the the the general tone of what's being said. And I would just add that it's not just sort of Falkland specific. I think also Argentina regards what took place in the Falklands as being a sort of vestiges of of other aspects of empire. But um, here's a couple of quick, just quick lines. Um, one said, What happens today is much more than a football match, it's a political and historical symbol, a clash with a colonial power that today occupies a quarter of our territory. And then here's another one the English are not gentlemen, they are appalling butchers who ceded misery, slavery, submission, and colonialism to the world. But my favourite is the English are a barbaric people, but they also gave us the Beatles, David Bowie, Depeche Mode, and the Smiths. Something is something.

Stig Abell 3:09

But these guys are these guys are will have been many of them will be descended from Spanish colonialists. I find this this is I find this very baffling because I understand the colonialist argument. If Britain had gone there, you know, if we were talking about India, for example, then there's a different it's just so interesting that this has then become a Falklands thing. Not and not perhaps um um um unexpectedly. Uh uh Can I read a quote to you, Jon? Because John Simpson, the BBC foreign correspondent, said this on X. I wonder how much you agree with this. Argentina versus England is important way beyond football. If Argentina wins tomorrow night, it'll put a real fire behind the demand for the Falklands. If England wins, that should put the lid on it for now. Could that possibly be true?

Jon Bonfiglio 3:48

I mean, I think he's right to an extent, and I think what's unsaid there is the fact that uh the current Argentine president Javier Millei is a big um is a big sort of acolyte ally of Donald Trump as well. Donald Trump has made noises um in the recent past to suggest that he doesn't really mind what happens to the to the Falklands, and that's definitely been seized on by by the Argentines. It it is um I I would definitely echo what John Simpson has said there, in the sense that if um Argentina win, again, going back to what I said before, it's going to be regarded as being a kind of um uh sort of a moral imperative for the the historical Argentine project, which includes the Falkland Islands.

Stig Abell 4:25

Um how important is football in Argentina generally? That's the other way of thinking about this, because football is massive in this country. But I remember when Maradona died, um, just the scenes in Argentina, uh I think it was COVID was going on at the time, but even with COVID, they still poured out on the streets uh extremely emotionally. Um it's probably more important a game in Argentina than it is in Britain. Is that fair, do you think?

Jon Bonfiglio 4:50

Yeah, I think so. I think it pervades all aspects of society. I mean, of course, football is you know a key sport culturally, socially in the UK as well, but I think it's a whole different level. There's a kind of I think one of the things about this um this Argentine side at this World Cup is that you can almost analyse all other teams in a sort of um in a tactical sense, in a personnel sense, in a skilled sense. Uh, but for Argentina, and you we've seen it within a lot of their games, it there's a kind of a religious fervor. There's something messianic about how they are playing, which is to do with their their history, but it is also to do with with trying to give Messi um a sort of the right kind of send-off. And you just can't measure, you can't measure Argentine society or football and what it means to them in sort of standard, rational ways, which also goes back to what we were saying about colonialism. I mean, you know, it's very difficult to have a sort of sensible, um, I hope no Argentines are listening to this, to have a sort of a relatively logical conversation about the Falklands with um with with um Argentines.

Stig Abell 5:49

Um is there South American solidarity? Um will Colombians and Brazilians want Argentina to win, or will they not care, or will they want anyone but Argentina to win? What's the what's the how does the continent respond to it?

Jon Bonfiglio 6:00

So this is fascinating because it's it's both things at once. On the one hand, the sort of the the Argentine, especially the the last man standing component, the last person standing of Argentine football, sort of has a reflection, a benevolent reflection on Latin American um and South American football. But on the other hand, there's there's a particular kind of whiteness to the Argentine project, a particular kind of uh virulent violence that took place in the Southern Cone, which wiped out both indigenous communities, um, I mean almost entirely, and sort of Afro-Argentines as well, which means that Argentines often regard themselves as more European than Latin, and that annoys a lot of Latin Americans. Um so, in that sense, a lot of um yeah, the Latinos across the uh the region would also be quite happy to see some a kind of a comeuppance to uh to the Argentines.

Stig Abell 6:51

God, this is interesting. And if they win, win or lose, Buenos Aires will go crazy, presumably tonight.

Jon Bonfiglio 6:56

Yeah, yes. Uh I mean, you know, it's we've we've seen the the images before. It's impossible to describe. I mean, it will just be a city bouncing.

Stig Abell 7:05

Uh Jon, really good to speak to you. That's really interesting stuff. Thanks so much for joining us.