Data + Love

Data + Love - Kate Schaub

January 14, 2020 Zach Bowders / Kate Shaub
Data + Love
Data + Love - Kate Schaub
Data + Love
Data + Love - Kate Schaub
Jan 14, 2020
Zach Bowders / Kate Shaub

The day before Fringe Fest North America I sit down with the spectacular Kate Schaub!

We talk cocktails, sea turtles, and the Desolation of Montana

Check Kate out on Twitter at @schaubkatelyn
Her Tableau Portfolio can be viewed at:!/

Vizzes Discussed:

Sea Turtles in Curacao!/vizhome/CuracaoSeaTurtles/CuracaoSeaTurtles-v3

Cadence of Cocktails!/vizhome/CadenceofCocktails/CadenceofCocktails

Music is "We Are Legends" by Alex Stoner via TakeTones

Show Notes Transcript

The day before Fringe Fest North America I sit down with the spectacular Kate Schaub!

We talk cocktails, sea turtles, and the Desolation of Montana

Check Kate out on Twitter at @schaubkatelyn
Her Tableau Portfolio can be viewed at:!/

Vizzes Discussed:

Sea Turtles in Curacao!/vizhome/CuracaoSeaTurtles/CuracaoSeaTurtles-v3

Cadence of Cocktails!/vizhome/CadenceofCocktails/CadenceofCocktails

Music is "We Are Legends" by Alex Stoner via TakeTones

Zach:   0:00
This is data plus love. We're here today with Kate Shaub. Kate is a friend of mine who I've known on Twitter for quite some time. And we really got to know each other a lot better this year. A Tableau con. We spent several days together. Her, me and my friend from work. David Kelly faded in and out a lot with some other friends in the mix. Kate is from Montana. She is three leader of the Big Sky Tug and welcome to the show. Kate, how are you today?

Kate:   0:59
I'm doing good. Zach, How are you?

Zach:   1:02
I'm doing spectacular? How are things up in Montana right now?

Kate:   1:06
Uh, you know, they're pretty snowy. We got probably about a foot of snow last week and been kind of frigid. Although I will say today hasn't been too bad. So spend it like, No,

Zach:   1:19
I mean, I live in the South. So are our concept of snow is entirely different. Memphis sees probably one inch of snow a year, and because of that, and because they know that there's no infrastructure to deal with snow. So if we get even the slightest warning of snow, all the schools start shutting down all the government service is and any employer that's smart shuts down. Um, but there are those that are, like, really ah, like eye of the tiger and go for it. Anyway, Images becomes a nightmare because people don't know how to drive on anything here, much less a tiny accumulation of snow.

Kate:   1:58
So yeah, well, here,

Kate:   2:02
I mean, yes, yes, no doubt. I mean, my dad taught me how to drive on snow. My dad's from Pennsylvania. I lived in Pennsylvania when I was young, so he would make me go in practice in parking lots. But even then, that's in like a ninja of snow, so you know, lots of doughnuts and stuff like that. But the problem isn't if you can drive on snow here. The problem is that even if you can, there's another 10,000 people on the road that can't

Kate:   2:26
right. So

Zach:   2:27
it becomes thunderdome.

Kate:   2:29
I mean, the same can be said for here, though, to like there it's quite shocking how few people know how to drive in the snow. Even though they live here.

Kate:   2:39
That's so. But they do it anyway. They have to. I mean, otherwise you couldn't survive.

Kate:   2:44
Yeah, and nothing closes. I mean, we could get a foot of snow tonight and everything would be open tomorrow. It's actually pretty sad. We look forward to snow days and we never get snow days, so it's pretty depressing.

Zach:   2:57
So it's like Narnia. It's like always winter. Never Christmas.

Zach:   2:59
Yeah, like I love snow around Christmas, but it seems like we have snow for nine out of the 12 months of the years. He sort of gets sick a snow.

Zach:   3:09
My girls always keep hoping for a white Christmas, and I just don't have the heart to tell guys you live in the South. It's not going to happen, you know, Adjust your expectations.

Kate:   3:19
Yeah, you need to take a vacation for a white Christmas one of these years.

Zach:   3:23
Well, I mean, last Thanksgiving went to Hawaii is my my my West, 10th anniversary. So naturally we took Children with us. It's the most beautiful place on earth, Um, and turned out to be amazing. And now I just want to avoid all family on all holidays and go someplace tropical and eat case ideas by a pool.

Kate:   3:40
You know, there's something to be said about that I could do that always.

Zach:   3:46
So, um, if they're transparency's sake, we're actually recording this at the beginning of December. I'm recording several days in a row before we start releasing, because there's nothing worse than like a new podcast coming out. And they're being huge gaps between recording because the person's new recording podcast or, you know, he's trying to get guests and that sort of thing that we're super worried about guests. I have lots of people that I know that would be happy to do this. Um, but you're a guinea pig. So that's exciting, right?

Kate:   4:14
It's super exciting because there's no pressure on me.

Zach:   4:18
No, there's no pressure at all. I mean, it's not like the entire success of this podcast will hinge on you, because people listen to the first episode and be disappointed and then come back in the second episode. And maybe more disappointed.

Zach:   4:34
E guess I could go either way in my the second official podcast. You're the second

Zach:   4:39
official podcast. At least you're the 2nd 1 being recorded. I mean, I don't think error order really matters too much when you have several in a row, but

Kate:   4:47
I but I get go either way if someone's before me, you know, it could only go up or vice versa with someone before me could do really well. And I could just screw it all up for you.

Zach:   4:59
That's true. See, I haven't told you how good the first one was.

Kate:   5:03
You should have put the pressure on

Zach:   5:06
because, I mean, it was

Zach:   5:07
it was pretty good. Phenomenal was the best ever.

Kate:   5:11
For those of you listening at home, you know how good it was. Kate has no idea. So that's that's an exciting situation for you and not so much for her.

Kate:   5:21
It really it's kind of tough, so we'll just pretend that the 1st 1 was awful and I'm gonna be better.

Zach:   5:28
That's that's a great attitude to have. So I know you like to travel, and I know living in Montana every day is traveling because it's long distances between everything.

Kate:   5:41
Well, that's funny. Um, it really is we, you know, we measure our distance and the amount of china takes to travel around here. Miles don't mean anything. You could tell me some things 20 miles away, and I will say it's 20 minutes away. Um, but it really Montana is so big, it's it's kind of demoralizing. Makes it takes you half a day to get anywhere around here. Um, but I do love to travel. I hate winter. So I like to travel away from Montana, which is a little ironic that I live here. Still don't really know why I live here. So I think we've decided that there's a lot of land and there's no people, and it takes forever to get anywhere.

Zach:   6:24
I mean, do you dislike people?

Kate:   6:27
It depends on the day. I probably shouldn't admit that because I do work in the public sector, though.

Zach:   6:34
So you just like people. Okay. Um,

Kate:   6:37
yeah, just like people.

Zach:   6:39
So when you are traveling, what's your draw? To travel to a particular place? Are you looking for different climates? Are you looking for liked, apology or sites? Or

Kate:   6:48
I know what it's been kind of a mixture for me, I e the only thing that I have in mind when I sort of choose a places to go somewhere that a lot of people don't necessarily go to. So being from Montana, people go to Canada. All Italian people go to Mexico and down to the Caribbean islands. They go to Spain and France and those are sort of a hot spot. So I've sort of been the anti Montana tourist and have gone to places that no one really thinks about. So I've been the Portugal I've been to cure a sow. And then my most recent was Norway and Iceland. So it's sort of against the grain, if you would.

Zach:   7:34
So that is actually a great tangent. So you have a spectacular is the Sea Turtles of Curacao, which is one of my favorite business of yours and maybe one of my favorite business in general. Um, I'm not like a big sea turtle guy. My wife is so she would definitely love it. I must say, I'm not, anti sea turtle. That's not like a position. Is there like an anti sea turtle group?

Kate:   7:57
Anyway, I was just gonna ask you that I don't think you can be anti Sea Turtle.

Zach:   8:03
I mean, someone's blazing the trail somewhere. Okay, Kate, let's not be closed minded,

:   8:07

Zach:   8:10
Okay. Someones highly offended by your sea turtle viz, um but it's it's really spectacular. It's super visual. It's very poppy. And it's the kind of thing that draws and lay people, which is more and more appealing to me these days because so many of the visits that we see a couple times that we make or our friends make we respond really well to because we're very into, like, the genre of date of is, you know, right. And this doesn't look like a lot of that. It looks like, um, on infographic. It looks very artsy. It's got photography. And it's some of which I think you took. Did you take some of these pictures?

Kate:   8:48
Yeah. So the picture right at the top is one of mine. And then the two of the bottoms. Great. Yeah. I took those actually sparkling with sea turtles. Go figure. Um, so those sort of to back you up on that? Like when I first traveled? I have all of these pictures taken for my trips, and I got to thinking about sort of wanting to figure out a way to use them, and it is. And for the longest time, I zero clue, because how, you know, we're always taught not to include photography and pictures because it takes away from the biz, but just sort of on a limb with Josh is feedback loop. I decided to go for it and, uh, ended up using my own photography, which was really cool. Actually,

Zach:   9:42
that is really cool. I mean, it makes it that much more personal, and I think so many of these rules that we have sort of established as an industry. There's a conversation going on about it on Twitter today between some of the authors of the Big Book of dashboards. And some of these conventions are maybe very applicable to what we think of as dashboards. But not necessarily date of is as a whole, because Davis could be nearly anything it could be. Art visit can be. You know, Infographic, It can be, you know, business with line and bar. You know, it could be whatever. And I think it works really well, if it's perceived that piece because it draws people in with your initial, You know, uh, your title pops against the background, and you've got this turtle in it from there. It draws your eye down the page, and I think it's just a great intro.

Kate:   10:30
Well, thank you. Um so that one was That wasn't tough for him, because I, um I had created a business as sort of a rough draft and threw it out to this feedback loop sort of half complete. And it's like, these are my ideas. What do you think? And the feedback that got was phenomenal. Not the place to go into everything I got. But I essentially sort of combined the two rough dress I had and threw this out there. But really, the goal and this one was to make it so if you wanted to, you could print it and get the entire story just from looking at a print version of it without ever having to be on a computer. Um, so that was tough, but I think it really worked out well to go against the grain of all of these standards that were used to with bars and lines and go with a different route that people who aren't into Davis can completely understand it be drawn into it. It it really reminded me more of like magazine infographics that you see, like a national geographic and stuff like that. But then those of us that are used to it and want to learn more can actually dig in because there are interactive pieces to it. It was actually really fun piece to create and cherry on top lives having my own photography and and Tim, you know, having been snorkelling with sea turtles. It just adds that element of personalization, which we don't often get to dio in Mrs except in our public work. Um so just made it that much more fun and meaningful. And, as you know, the more meaning something hasn't it, the better the end result is.

Zach:   12:16
I mean, absolutely. That's a whole lot of my drive behind this podcast in the first place. I mean, for me with my public work when I started narrowing the scope of my visits and rather than sort of taking all projects that I saw because it's really easy. There's so many public projects available to participate in, and it's fun because your friends are doing them. They're good opportunities. But it's always something that you have, ah, sort of draw to a relationship with right, so sometimes you produce something just to produce it, rather than like, there's a story there you're interested in or the topic is or you have a unique angle of seeing it. So I sort of started pulling back and being more deliberate in either hunting down data I wanted or making data I wanted and then going from there.

Kate:   13:01
Yeah, and you can see it. I mean, I have told you this before. We're like, this year. I set myself this goal of doing everyone of the makeover Mondays, which I've done. But there's such a stark difference in, you know, just being handed a data set that you know nothing about, and just doing something to finish it up and make it look better vs having more of a vested interest in what you're doing. So, like I know personally with the makeover Mondays, I just get started and get something out to get something out at the end of the day. But a lot of these other ones that actually have meaning you spend time on it. You do the research, you get feedback from other people and really put a lot of time and effort into it. And it's very noticeable. I mean, I see that even other people in the community there makeover Monday stuff or, you know, random side projects versus something that really interested in, so speaks volume.

Zach:   14:02
I mean, absolutely youpre up to 80 public vizzes. I was looking at your portfolio earlier today, which is spectacular. And I mean, I mean, this entirely is a friend, and there's no disrespect. It all in the past week you've released, I think two visits, right? You did the makeover Monday about sort of unions versus non union workers. Yeah, and you release your cadence of cocktails fist, and the two could not be further apart, Like your Your union is is sort of a very standard bar chart, which is very expressive, and it gets the point across entirely. But you can tell there's not, like, a lot of passion. There's not allowed to drive behind it. You don't necessarily have, like, a real personal connection to it and any strong way. But you definitely wanted Toa completely. Anyway, which everybody does, right? Yeah. Um, kids of cocktails is spectacular. It it is so creative. It's poppy. It draws you in. It makes you curious. Um, it makes you realize that people drink like mad during the winter. Um, except for mint juleps, which no one drinks ever. Except during the Kentucky Derby.

Kate:   15:08
I know that it that just blew my mind. I have to say, like I thought it would be at least sort of popular, but

Zach:   15:16
I don't even know if it's popular. Then I just feel like people think they have to.

Kate:   15:21
That's probably the case, because they're really zero search interest any other time of the year.

Zach:   15:26
So you got this from Google Trends? Is that correct? Yes, that's interesting. I've used Google trends, just a passing curiosity, but I've never actually pulled down the data. So that's really interesting that you were able to sort of come up with this very rich data set. And for my understanding, I think you had a lot more. You wanted to get out there, but certainly limited your scope.

Kate:   15:46
Yeah, um, so I actually got this idea from the rhythm of food. Have you ever looked at that? What's I I haven't No, um so outside of this, you should definitely check it out because it is phenomenal. And it takes everything that I did in this cocktail biz to the necks C concert for, like, anything and everything. Food and drink related, but I had stumbled across that after Sarah Barlett head announced her Iron Quest topic for this month. And so the conference. Kevin and I were joking that we have to keep our 100% record for I am quest. So I had been on the hunt for food and drink data, stumbled across the rhythm of food, and it just couldn't I couldn't get it out of my head. I want to figure out how to recreate it in town alone, and from that I decided to focus on the drinks rather than the food. And then when you have such a rich data set, it's hard not to go down that rabbit hole and want to include anything and everything is so. Some of my ideas had been to, you know, have a cocktail portion have a portion on different types of wine because there has to be seasonality trends of red versus whites and things like that, and then to include beers so that a user could really take their picture. Look at their drink of choice. But when you're looking at 15 years of data broken out weekly for even, I think there's 21 cocktails. In my biz, that alone was a ton of data. And being on public, it doesn't run as well as I would want it to. So at that point, I knew I couldn't include everything I wanted to and decided just to focus on those those cocktails instead.

Zach:   17:37
No, I mean, you're right. I mean, as it is, it's a bit laggy. And that's not a limitation of your visits. Just a limitation of public, you know, can only handle so much time, right? Which makes you wonder how it's gonna tackle some of these animations that wanna see an upcoming release.

Kate:   17:50
So, you know, I have to say just because he brought that up, my would be kind of intrigued to throw animations. I'm just a portion of this cocktail is because running yearly. Oh, that's just great. We'll see.

Zach:   18:06
So, um, in regards to, ah, this particular iron quest, I actually almost participated. I mean, I was intending to I typically don't enter those kinds of things because, honestly, um, I struggle with the wrapping. My head around, sort of on iron viz type of is like, sort of what the expectation is because oftentimes with iron viz. It feels like entries air sort of a scrolly telling.

:   18:33

Zach:   18:34
Which I think in terms of iron is itself is a convention of sort of the contest where, in order to make the feeder, you want to show every single trick you can pull out. You want to maximize your space and sort of take advantage of all of that. And, uh, but then Iron Viz itself is like, a, Sprint. So it's like running a marathon to qualify for the 40 yard dash. Yeah, so I'm never quite sure what I would need to do for these, but I had a particular idea. I was at a kid's birthday party and my friend Randy and I were drinking some cold brew, and he looks at the back of the labels, is says five times the caffeine of a mountain Dew, and I just look at him. It's like, How do you know how much caffeine is an amount into it, he says. I know all the stats on Mountain Dew. That's what I used my basis for comparison. And I mean, after I came back down from my mind being blown like, why does he have these memorized like that. There's a spectacular visit there somewhere, then a Mountain dew. So I I went on Pepsi's website. I started pulling down data on their various drinks they had in Coke's website because I wanted to do like a radar chart overlay of Mountain Dew versus beverages. That downside is, and most these beverages, first of all, what you're looking at different measures of different quantities, milligrams versus grams and you're having to normalize. And then you've got calories, which is on a totally different scale. So you're having to sort of take the maximum of any of these and just all the rest of them into whatever 5 to 10 points you need to express your radar chart. But even then, there's not enough interesting stats on any of these. I mean, you could have like sugar, sodium caffeine and calories and Mountain Dew. But there's no, um, fat. There's no, um, there's no vitamins. And then on something else, there might be three other things and, you know, missing another force you come up with really wonky on interesting radar charts. So about six hours into this project of data collection and assembly, I just like I give up. I mean, the idea was better than the the execution, but yours, it makes it so worth it.

Kate:   20:45
Yeah, I was thrilled. I do have to say with how it turned out. Um, but I really can't take a whole lot of credit for actually creating this chart. I I didn't do any of that piece. I may have made it look good, but I couldn't tell you the calculations behind it. So if you want to know, you just gotta go download it.

Zach:   21:05
Yeah, uh, I just might, because it looks mind it looks like you're being sucked into a black hole or being digitized into Tron or something.

Kate:   21:14
Yeah. Wouldn't it be kind of cool animations? Maybe even look better?

Zach:   21:20
I mean, animations are gonna make everything look better. The questions of is, if animations make stuff more sensible and I feel like there's definitely gonna be really awesome use cases, but a lot of stuff we see and probably a list of we produce. If I'm frank about some of my own happiness, we'll, uh we'll come out being cooler looking than it is functional and useful.

Kate:   21:44
Oh, totally. But this is work because, you know, there's gonna be that person that saw the animations of the conference and now I just wanted and everything but you D'oh, I and

Zach:   21:59
we had a pact at work for a while, not to mention the concept of paging to anyone, because we knew as soon as someone saw paging and so that you could make a line drawn across the pager bars filling every time people would start asking for that and all it does, for the most part, with a lot of users. Unless you're sort of really dialed in, is it biases you towards the most recent data point instead of making consider everything as a whole,

Kate:   22:27
right. You sort of forget about that first piece that when you hit play,

Zach:   22:31
Yeah, because you're always waiting to see what happens next and not considering everything as a whole and looking for outliers looking for What's this odd point of curiosity here? This thing is ah, you know, unexpected.

Kate:   22:45
Yeah, things that tableau put in it. It's super cool, but it kind of makes me is like an analyst and someone who designed dashboards at work all day, every day, kind of cringe at the same time. It was sort of like where they released. What is it like? You can have 50 columns now in a table? Yeah, I don't want to write When I heard that.

Zach:   23:06
I mean, it's It's It's a tool, right? Like so many things, they're trying to expand the toolbox, to love more capabilities. And in a skilled practitioner, all of these things will be amazing. And unskilled practitioners hands it could be, you know, excel all over again,

Kate:   23:23
just going back to where it all began.

Zach:   23:26
Oh, yeah, I mean, let's go back to our roots. Let's go back to Lotus.

Kate:   23:29
He's not what everything's all about these days.

Zach:   23:32
Oh, man, it's coming back like let's go. Uh, that's like the vinyl equivalent of Tableau. Let's go back to just super manual calculations in a tabular format. Yeah, so the kids are into

Kate:   23:46
whatever floats your boat these days. I guess

Zach:   23:50
so. Transitioning. That actually makes me think about the concept of adoption, which is at proposed, because tomorrow you and I are going to be a panel at the Fringe Festival, which will be in the past for anyone listening to this. So hopefully you have good memories of that. And we weren't to train wreck. Um, but in terms of, like, adoption of maybe data visualization and embracing data as a whole, um, where do you see that going, uh, with some of your stuff that you're able to talk about. You know, do you have trouble getting people to sort of embrace tableau or what he thinks an obstacle that holds people

Kate:   24:32
back. Um, I know in my role specifically, it's The funny thing is, when people are worried about adoption, it's always with our end users. And if they are going to enjoy more of a data visualization and learn from it rather than what they're used to in Excel, and I sort of have the complete opposite issue in my role, I actually have had more issues with our developers wanting to learn and embrace tableau as a tool and something to be excited about. Um, so a lot of what I get at work is like complete bare minimum. It's like click a bar chart on Show Me and call it a day sort of thing. So, um, in my role, it it's kind of comical to be on adoptions panel and being sort of dad's outlier. So, so to speak, of having to worry about the people creating our dashboards rather than our end users. 

Zach:   25:34
I don't think you're far off there, though, because I think getting a tool is half the picture. So with tableau, you're getting a really robust tool that can create really great, compelling stuff if used well, it's sort of used at a basic level. It can create sort of just shovel. Where and one of the obstacles is you can become super proficient at using tableau. You can create advanced chart types, know all sorts of calculations. But if you're unable to sort of put together the visual storytelling component, the analogy I've used is it's like knowing everything about driving a car like your perfect, that braking, steering, all of that. But you're wholly unaware of the rules of the road. You like blasting through stop signs or cutting people off. You're driving a car perfectly like you are. You are operating all the mechanical aspects of it. Fine, but you're not doing it in a way that's doing what you want.

Kate:   26:27
That's a fair assessment. I like that there may have to use that.

Zach:   26:31
You can steal that.

Kate:   26:33
Um, yeah. I mean, so we've had tableau for those, either. Don't know. I work for the state of Montana, and we are sort of centralized. If you will. Sp Other agencies can hire us to create their own dashboards, but they can also create their own if they want. Um, And internally, we have about 20 licenses, and people know the basics. Um, but we just it I kind of see it as like, a makeover Monday every day of my life, because I never know really what's gonna get thrown out of me. Um, So I may have one day, you know, the department of environmental quality. Ask for something. And then tomorrow I've got the Legislative Finance Committee, so they definitely keep us on our toes with what we're doing. Um, hence why I've become really, really good at basic bar charts of mine charts, because at the end of the day, that's what people want. But a lot of it has been You know, we we were sort of forced when we got tableau and forcing anyone doesn't do anyone any good. So we have a lot of these employees that know the basics, but I feel as though they were forced into this position and really just don't care enough to want toe learn and us where my tablet public has, sort of, if you will save my career, my life not really my life. But it gives you that creative outlet, which is phenomenal and where you can develop those storytelling skills outside of where you have to meet deadlines and specific requirements and stuff like that. That makes sense.

Zach:   28:14
I think that absolutely makes sense. And I I wouldn't know you if not for that. So that's spectacular. Um, but I think like it's like taking the Red Pill in The Matrix. Once you discovered tableau public. I know for me I didn't actually know it existed before. I had made essentially my first public data visualization, which was a couple years ago. I did an M. Night Shyamalan, um, is based on rotten tomatoes stuff, and it's really just a business dashboard. It's not spectacular, but I was just curious about sort of the perceptions of the audience. First the critics, which is something I've revisited quite often for various things. Um But once you discover that there is a place to put, you know, personal projects and that there are other people's personal projects and that some of them are amazing and inspirational, it really just opens up a whole new door, too, because you realize that tableau is not. This business tool that you've been using is just a blank canvas, and it could be whatever you want it to be limited only by your skill and creativity.

Kate:   29:16
Yeah, it's funny when I first started with Tableau and like everyone you know, you show me and use all the default color palettes and then someone happens just double across Temple of Public and I'm like, You're right, I can never make any of that still run into the gallery and the visited A and You're like, you know, never. And then you actually get started in creating public visualizations, and it's like, Oh, since so bad, it's not so intimidating. Grant and I've had a lot of help with what I have put out there. I mean, the sea turtle is had all sorts of feedback. My cocktail. When I know I have you take a look at it prior to publishing, so I couldn't do it without community members. But that's the beauty of it, right? You learned so much from the people around you once you get sucked in.

Zach:   30:04
And I heard people asked me, They've looked us from my public work versus some of my work work and they look so vastly different. And the question is like, How come you can do this? But this is what you do at work and the questions that so much like, Why don't you make it work? Stuff look like your public stuff When you create work stuff, it's an entirely different context. You're preaching to a different audience. You're trying to express stuff in a a very clean way. That's sort of simpler, but also you are bringing the stuff from your public work back to it in the sense that by doing all those reps through public work, you're faster. You have new tricks. Um, you've learned stuff that doesn't work, you know, hopefully you've learned some stuff that does work. And just because you're not doing sort of a pop arty thing like you might do on a public project which might have a different ah intended audience doesn't mean you're not able to take the learnings of creating that goofy PA party thing and bring it back to the new business dashboard. That's hoping a wow a senior vice president or whatever.

Kate:   31:08
It just kind of cracks me up. Can you imagine if I put my cocktail is in front of the Legislature?

Zach:   31:15
Well, I mean, they're Legislature. I'm sure they would. They would love a cocktail. This. Ah, what do you think the Legislature would order off your cocktail? This or is that too far?

Kate:   31:25
What would the order? I got to think about what's on their mind.

Zach:   31:31
It is winter. So anything's fair game,

Kate:   31:35
you know, I see them is probably more along the lines of like an old fashioned. Maybe

Zach:   31:40
I'm down with that. I like an old fashioned.

Kate:   31:42
Yeah, we'll go with that. I'll just pretend so Every time I have to meet with them, I'll just pretend that we're meeting over round of old fashions.

Zach:   31:51
A spectacular, I think. If legislatures did drink old fashions on the job, politics as a whole might be a whole lot more enjoyable for everyone. I mean, that's that's just we call that Parliament Yeah. So, uh, yeah, part parliament Is Congress with an old fashioned.

Kate:   32:10
We should propose that.

Zach:   32:12
You know, actually, funny thing Congress did used to have a congressional cocktail hour not too long ago. I mean, I'm talking like, maybe 10 years ago, and as a result, I think that helped relationships and politics more. Because when people who are in an adversarial relationship have to interact more in a casual way, it creates, you know, a sort of more recognize recognition, recognition of the humanity of each other. I mean, my wife's an attorney so often times she is working on the other side from other attorneys. But they all have very cordial relationships because they recognised. Look, I'm doing a job. You're doing a job for both people, and the more professional attorneys all treat other, each other really well and are really social. Even though you're on the opposite side of a particular issue, you have no malice against each other. So maybe, you know, let's let's bring back cocktail hours. Let's do that.

Kate:   33:06
It might benefit everyone. Actually, I think so. I mean, even at our state level way, need that around Montana State government to

Zach:   33:16
You know, I think I think so, too. And I think I think I'll have a dark and stormy Kate. 

Kate:   33:20
Let's do that. Coming right up.

Zach:   33:24
So, um, wrapping things up? Is there anything you would like to promote? Is there anything you would like to ah say to the community before we sign off today?

Kate:   33:33
Oh, well, you put me on the spot

Kate:   33:38
but this one was like a curveball. I have to actually open my mind and think about something. Um, I don't know that I have anything specific to say other than, you know, to those people that are just getting started in tableau, don't be afraid to, you know, reach out to the community because I know you and I It seems like we've known each other for forever and really just met at the conference. And I had that happened with so many other people that it goes to show that it's possible to build this entire network of people around you that are really only have your best interests at heart. And even if you've never met them, it it has brought forth some of the best friendships and relationships that I ever thought was possible. But aside from that, you can learn so much from the tableau community, whether it's through Twitter, whether it's through publishing just to public. Um, it really has opened my eyes to an entirely new world over the last year, which is really cool.

Zach:   34:39
You know, I think that is the best possible note to sign off on. Thank you so much for coming on, Kate. I hope we do this again soon.

Zach:   34:45
Thank you, Zach.

Zach:   34:58
Data plus Love is recorded and produced by Zach. Powders are music Track is We Are Legends by Alex Stoner,

Gigi:   35:05
My Daddy's Batman.