Knowing His Voice(John 9:40-10:6)

𝐊𝐧𝐨𝐰𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐇𝐢𝐬 𝐕𝐨𝐢𝐜𝐞(𝐉𝐨𝐡𝐧 𝟗:𝟒𝟎-𝟏𝟎:𝟔)

Contact: amazedandperplexed@gmail.com
Music by: Heavensense
https://soundcloud.com/hvnsen 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, my name is Connor. And I'm Jason. And you're listening to the Amazed and Perplexed Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

I am really uh intrigued uh by what we're gonna cover today. Welcome you back to the podcast, and uh we are in John chapter nine. Uh I I feel like, and I don't know why this is important for me to say out loud, or why I even feel it, but I I feel like I'm trapped in the book of John now. Uh his his stuff just runs into the next thing that whereas many of the Matthew, Mark, and Luke stories are kind of disconnected, standalone. Um, but I also see great value in the idea of seeing things through what happened on the other side of that, who else was affected by this conversation that you just I don't at least pick up in the other gospels. And so we just covered uh Jesus' interaction with this man born blind, and it didn't start from the man asking for it, it started from a a religious discussion, effectively, a theology discussion about, you know, hey, does blindness mean that somebody sinned kind of thing? And that led to this big situation with the Pharisees, and then we turned our attention back to the man who was healed. Uh, we called him Rick, just so we can stop saying the man born blind. Um, and so uh he is gone. Like he he is off, and we don't know what happened to him. Um, but the Pharisees were there, and Jesus has just made a statement. Um, and so they're gonna respond to that, and that's gonna take us into chapter 10. It's just gonna roll right into it. Setting us up, you know, one of our goals specifically this time running through you know the the story of Jesus. Um, we're trying to say, okay, anything we can be considering contextually, specifically from the main people's point of view, what's something that we could be thinking about that will help us just give dignity to the people involved and also have a better understanding of the context in hopes of noticing something new? And just spoiler, there's always something new uh that we'll notice in scripture. So I'm curious, Connor, anything that that you're seeing that might be useful in that way?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

So I I think I I'm going to I'm gonna read a passage uh that will be relative to both this week and next week, as Jesus next week uh specifically breaks down um and calls himself the Good Shepherd. Um and and Jesus' response here, he is directly drawing on an idea found in Isaiah. And since he's talking to the Pharisees, there's a good chance, almost certainly, that they would have understand, uh, they would have had some understanding, maybe not of the full point of what Jesus is saying, um, but they would have understand what Jesus is trying to do and trying to equate himself. So in in uh Isaiah chapter 40 uh and 9 it says this Zion, you have good news to tell. Go up on a high mountain and shout the good news. Jerusalem, you have good news to tell. Don't be afraid, speak loudly, tell this news to all the city of Judah. Look, here is your God. The Lord God is coming with power, he will use his power to rule all the people, he will bring rewards for his people, and he will have their payment with him. Like a good shepherd, he takes care of his people. He gathers them like lambs in his arms, and he holds them close while their mothers walk beside him. And so I I think that reading that I think is just really helpful. Um, because this is one of those things that's really hard to catch as people who are not one, we're we're coming back to this week after week after week is meant to be read all in one sitting, and is also meant to be consumed by people soaked in in the Old Testament scriptures. Um, and so it's important to remind ourselves that some of the reactions of the Pharisees and some of their um some of their things where we don't get direct explanation for their acts, it's because Jesus is speaking to them on this whole other level. Uh, and there are all these undercurrents running throughout these conversations that Jesus is putting down and that they're partially picking up and getting wrong, and partially picking up and getting ripe of being mad about it. Um so there's just a lot happening beneath the surface. And and I think it's important to remember that this is how we have conversations uh today. It's just these are not, this is not the language, it's not the culture that we're steeped and saturated in, so it's a little hard for us to wrap our minds around. But we have these things happening all the time in our daily life that when we talk to people from similar backgrounds who experience the same culture, there are things that we do not have to say directly because there is undercurrents of knowledge that we all have. And when I say a phrase, maybe somebody 2,000 years ago will 2,000 years from now will not completely understand, but 95% of the people uh today, today's day and age would understand it. In fact, here's an example, just as a quick thing, I might cut this part out. Uh, and at my church this past Sunday, um uh the preacher made a joke about six seven, and I don't understand six seven because it's not my culture, but apparently that's something with the kids where it's some sort of big joke. And I've been informed now since then that that joke is now not just the older teenagers, that's not funny anymore, but for the middle schoolers it still is funny. Um, but he made a joke, he just said six seven and not in the context of joking. And he said, Oh, and some of you're gonna think that's funny, and some of you are too old to get that. But it's like he didn't even have to say that because there was a whole group of people in the crowd that started laughing when he said that. Um, and so there are all these different undercurrents always happening in the way that we communicate with each other.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

That is that is illuminating and and that realization you called undercurrents of knowledge um in a word, or one way to conceptualize it is bias. And and bias seems like a negative word, it's just a reality word. Like everything you do, you're coming from some point of view, it's pretty obvious. And I think we should do everything in our power, including your introduction, you know, and and this application of this concept, to understand the context and uh minimize our bias, try to see it through the eyes of the original speaker, original recipients, and simultaneously you're still gonna have your bias. You know, it's like I've I've often thought, man, if I could just work, be in my wife's head for, you know, I mean, just be there for a couple days, that I'd have so much understanding. And that is true, but I'd be considering all her stuff through my point of view. So I'd still have bias. And so the best I think we can do is be very humble when we're reading scripture or anything, honestly, but when we're reading scripture and just recognize I have a bias, so that's affecting me. And the best I can do is acknowledge it, keep it in front of me, and ask God to help me see through it. And so, but that's great prep. So these Pharisees, and just to remind you, in a real basic sense, Pharisees pride themselves, and they were chosen because their ability to read, the passion to study, their ability to retain uh the word of God. And so every time we see the word Pharisee, there's a message and the perceived ability to keep the law as well. Right, yeah, yeah. They take it seriously. What they read, they actually apply. And so they're he they're observing, some of them are observing Jesus' conversation with this blind man, and he just said in verse 39, For judgment I've come into this world so that the blind will see, and those who see will become blind. Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and ask, What? Are we blind too? Jesus said, If you are blind, you would not be guilty of sin. But now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. Going into chapter ten, very truly I tell you, Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he is brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger. In fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice. Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them. Now, massive truncation here. You'd want to read this whole thing in general practice, but because we want to limit this to whatever our time thing is, I I will just stop there and we'll constrain ourselves and say what amazes you about this interaction.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

In my life, both uh in my pursuit of knowledge, generally speaking, of knowledge of God, um, knowledge of uh history, of science, of literature, my knowledge of trying to be a better husband and trying to be a better person. Um I am always looking for a way to climb over the fence. Um I'm always looking for a way to uh to shortcut, to not um to not gain that knowledge um in the way that we all tend to know is healthiest. I'm always looking for the the cheat sheet for the answer. Um and I think one of the things that's just really compelling to me about what Jesus says here um is the good shepherd is is is the gate, is standing there at the gate, and he's calling out his sheep by name. Um and every time I try to shortcut my way to God, every time I try to um make my own way, make my own path, I am missing on opportunity to be called out by name by God. Um man, I think that there's a broader point that she's making here, but I think it also just applies to day-to-day living, um, that I I I'm one of his sheep. And when I recognize that he is lovingly allowing me to enter and guiding me and protecting me. Um but when I want to be something else, when I want to be something grand or bigger, I have a better plan, um, I'm gonna miss out on his voice. Um and I think that that for me, just being known by him, being singled out by him, um, that I have the choice to hear that both uh for the once and for all time of of being saved or whatever, and also just on a daily is is just is just profound to me.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

I I think I wish that this was the only passage in scripture, like like just this section, uh-huh because it's so clarifying, and and that's the part that amazes me is it's like so you're saying my job is to be in the pen. Now, of course, if it was the only passage, we'd have 70,000 books on what is it to be in the pen, you know, but but to be there with the the gatekeeper, you know, and wait for either him or the um yeah, e the wait for the gatekeeper and follow him out and go where he tells you. And it's so easy, you know. I mean, uh, and it hits me that I read like the 23rd Psalm, which I love that passage that you read in Isaiah, and and thinking about as soon as he says shepherd or sheep, what would be the bringing, you know, just the without even thinking about that's the subconscious context these listeners, these Pharisees are putting him in. And of course, Jesus himself is thinking that way.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Um, but it but it's that idea of this is Christianity, that this is what it's like to be with God, is you will recognize Jesus' voice because I'm full of is this really Jesus' voice? I mean, how many conversations have I had with people? They're like, Yeah, I have this scent, but I don't know if it's God or the devil or me. And I'm like, there's never a time where I'm like, I don't get you. Like, I'm like, yeah, I totally relate to that. Um, and then I've got all kinds of questions, probably that falls into stuff that perplexes me, but but the simplicity of him saying, and this is not his point, he's talking about he's he's I don't know if answering is the right way, but he's responding to this Pharisee's question. And my sense is that Pharisee is like, What? You're ridiculous. Like that's the essence of it. Maybe he's asking it honestly, but like with all the things Jesus did, there's so many layers of profound things, and I feel like in some ways it's low-hanging fruit that's amazing to me, but I'm like, that is so amazing, so refreshing, you know. Like I would think, okay, so how would I apply this every day? Yeah. And and it is that idea, okay. Am I listening? And maybe more important, do I believe that he's talking and I could recognize it? Because there's not he he's this isn't an indictment of any sheep. You know, you know, it's like it's like the sheep know. And I'm like, oh, then I can know.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

You know what I think? I think it's so it's so it's so beautiful and profound. Like I I it's hard for us to understand the mindset of a Jew 2,000 years ago. Um, there is almost certain like we are much more individualistic today. Like that, like that's just a fact um in terms of how we view the world, our life, religion, God, everything. And I think part of that is is really good. Like there's a part here that would have been revolutionary for somebody to hear about how um how individual and specific Jesus is being, that he's saying, hey, listen, like this, like he speaks plenty about the story of Israel and and God's rescue, but also specifically, like, hey, you, like that would have been to me, that's not as miraculous today, because it's like, yeah, me. Like I the the individual uh the individual is king in today's day and age. But for somebody who's hearing that for the first time who that's not what that's not the daily Sioux that they're in like we are, man, that would have just been so um that would have been so incredibly profound and and revolutionary. And I think about like I don't know, I've I've read different things by you know people who are shepherds, who are, you know, good farm hands, and and sometimes they'll say, Yeah, you know, everyone knows their all the the shepherd a good shepherd 100% of the time knows every single one of his sheep and knows what they take. And I'm sure like that is to a certain extent, and I'm sure there were bad shepherds at the time that also were not individually in tune, um, in tune with their in tune with their livestock. Um, but I I I I I don't want to get lost in the fact because of where we find ourselves in 21st century America, or for those of you who are not here, just you know, if you're listening to this, you're getting influenced by uh by the in your in some place in a culture right now that is not um 21st century America individual in the way we are individualistically. Um you're being influenced by it, so you have a better piece of it than I think even they would. But also, um like I I there I think that would have been scandalous to them. But I think it also is it's scandalous for us, it's not scandalous for us to hear that like God individually is calling our name, but also um it is pretty hard for us to hear, like, no, there's a gate. There's a gate and there's a pin and there's somebody who's gonna lead you. Um so that part would have probably been easier for them to take in back then. And but for me, even today, it's harder for me to take in the idea of like, well, I'm not gonna fit in a pen. I'm a I'm a, you know, I I like I've got all the like I'm not gonna fit into a pin. I'm not well, okay, maybe we're gonna go off and we're gonna graze a little bit, but maybe I'll go and do my own thing a little bit or whatever. And so uh there's layers of this that are often are are offensive to us now that wouldn't have been then, and and vice versa.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah, and I and that that actually segues way segua. There's there's always something when Jesus interacts with well, pretty much everybody that I'm perplexed by. And it's Jesus, couldn't you have been a little bit gentler and make it a not as confrontive, make it a more teachable moment? Like when the guy asks him, you know, you mocking us, he's like, hey, I see you're interested in me. Let's talk about this. I see you're interested in what it. Well, what do you how would you define, you know, but he doesn't. He just jumps in. I'm not gonna, that's not my turn. Okay. I'm I'm gonna say that's that's always on my mind. It's like, why not heal on the on the Sunday? Why not heal on the Friday? You know, why do it on the Saturday? You know, most of the time. I'm like, yeah, you can do it. But in this case, what really perplexes me is what you just laid out. If I am a sheep and I would recognize the difference between my master and the the thief's voice, why do I struggle so much with it? Is that is that an indictment on my faith? Is it speaking to what you just said that I'm so individualistic? And and it's 100% true. And and I'm not your hard driver type A personality that really defines themselves by their accomplishment, or I'm not the art-oriented person that's like I've got to be creative with everything and stand out. I am fine to wear the unnoticed clothing, I am fine to not be in the lead. I I really am fine with almost all of those things. Um, but there's still that part that I'm like, it is a big job of discernment about number one, do I even care that somebody's calling me that's trying to direct me? You know, because so much of my life, I'm like, I think I just exist to be distracted. And am I being aware that there are multiple people calling? Exactly right. And then when I turn, and maybe I'm answering my own question to this extent, it's like, oh, to the person that never listens, when they're made aware, I should listen, then it's more of a struggle than the person that's always listening, you know? And because of the pain in my life, just all of it have I trained, like I love TV. Well, why is that? Well, part of it's because TV was the bright spot in our family. You know, when prime time hit back in the day, you know, that even if life was hard, we're all watching Happy Days together, we're watching Laverne and Chirley together. You know, I mean, we're it's it's this weird thing that it's like, well, TV will take care of us, you know, kind of so distorted, so unhealthy. Um, and so now it's like, isn't any wonder that if I feel any strain, I move to distraction? The classic, I'm not even thinking about it. I I just recognize in after the fact that, oh, I was feeling a little bit stressed when I woke up because I was thinking about something, and then without even knowing it subconsciously, I'm in my phone. What is happening there? Well, I am so unaccustomed to taking time to really listen that the slightest discomfort throws me into a desire to seek some kind of distraction. Because as long as I'm watching TV, as long as I'm scrolling, as long as I'm doing this stuff, I don't have to listen.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

So there's a I've I have a right now, I'm experiencing the dynamic you're you're speaking to. I started a Bible study with uh with a couple of guys. Shout out Heath and Caleb. Um I assume now that uh unless I prod you to listen to this, um I'll just hold it resentment that nobody ever in my life ever listens. I'm just kidding. There are plenty of people who's like, hey, I heard you mentioned me. No, uh I'm just gonna start listing out names. Bob, Sally, Noah. Uh so we started this Bible study and we're doing walking through this book called The Liturgy of the Ordinary, and one of the main first chapters is is speaking to the idea of you know, first thing in the morning being you know, staring at your phone in this glowing box and and how that can disrupt your day. You know, we've talked about that sort of thing, and it's not anything revolutionary, anything I hadn't read before or talked about, but like it as a group, um I won't say heath Caleb committed to do something as like to try to combat that in the morning, and then I also committed um to spend five to ten minutes a morning um in in some sort of meditation, reflection, not looking at my phone. Ten minutes when I first wake up alone by myself, and it wasn't even specifically like hey, you're praying or you're reading the Bible, but it's like you're not looking at your phone. You're sitting and you're allowing uh allowing yourself to feel loved by God without any sort of accomplishment or any sort of feeling or any sort of input. Um and so we have our meeting every single Monday, and I was really excited to report on yesterday or two days ago on Monday, that five out of the seven days since we had last met, I had kept my promise. Well, hey, guess what? Uh Caleb's out of town, so we weren't able to meet on Monday. Well, guess who hasn't done it the past two days? Because nobody's gonna call him to account. This guy right here. Right. I even it wasn't a choice I made, but there was just a subconscious thing of like, oh, we're not gonna meet till next Monday or the Monday after that or whatever. And so, like, I am not gonna be around these sheep that we have all decided and made a decision together, um, and uh been like, yeah, this is the voice of God, or this is the this is the master, this is the shepherd calling out our name. And so we're gonna hold each other to account to to not be distracted. And I think this is the this is the thing that when church is good, and I can be a crit plenty of a critic when church is not good, when church is good, um it is it is a bunch of sheep who all collectively know the voice of the master, allowing their relationships with each other and to God to speak into the dynamic that you're speaking to, of like uh we're all familiar with like, is this of God, me, devil, something else, my gut, um, like literal like gut, um telling me to make a decision. Um and and part of the way we discern these things and and and speak through them is that like, yeah, God knows me individually, but I'm not I'm not a lone sheep out here alone. In fact, when when when Jesus used the parable of of the one leaving the 99, he brings them back. He brings them back. We were never meant to be out figuring out what the voice of God is or or um any of this alone. And so um I think it's I think it's really a beautiful picture of not just how God calls me out, but then he calls me out and I'm amongst other people that he's called out. And so that's what the church is when it's good. It's a group of people called out um who can work through these things. And I think we often want to be like, oh yeah, to to know like in this circumstance, like, oh yeah, I recognize God's voice. Like we want that to be instantaneous always. And we think that's the way that God speaks about it, and maybe it is. I'd have to do more research. But I have a I do wonder, I'm just wondering right now. It's like there are many times where I've come to you and be like, man, I think God's doing this, and I I'm not 100% sure. And then you have some wisdom you speak into, and then I get some more clarity, and I feel some confidence going in an area. I'm like, okay, I think I'm pretty confident that's what God's speaking to, and that's what God wants me to do. And it's like, okay, I had something I was confused about, and then for 24 hours I wondered, and then I talked to another sheep who knows the voice of God. And now I feel some clarity. And it's like, oh, it's what a failure. It took 24 hours to really recognize it. And it's like, is that the way that God works? Is God like, oh man, you didn't get to be around sheep for 24 hours or 72 hours or however long it is. But once you were, you were kind of able to talk through it. And I'm like, man, I I I think that timetable it might be self-imposed by us.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

I I think, yeah. Oh man, so much, so much. I was gonna try to discipline myself to say one thing and say, what perplexes you, Conor? Say two.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

No, so no, no, say say one thing, one thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Well, uh, what I was gonna say, I'm gonna go with that thing. Okay, is we are committed. There's a small group I'm I'm leading, and one of the things we're saying is what can God do in four months inside of us? And one of the methods, and my whole theory is I'm just giving you things to keep you in front of God. That that's all I'm doing is giving you enough structure to get you there, and for me and for the whole group. And so one of the things we do, I've I said create your own, but do five minutes a day of breath prayer. You can do it driving, you can do it anywhere. Breath prayer is, I mean, its most basic essence is when you breathe in, Lord Jesus Son of God, have mercy on me, you know, Lord Jesus Son of God, and then breathing out, have mercy on me, a sinner. That's an example. Or you say, help me, God, to see you and show me your way, whatever it is. But it's this idea of connecting with your breathing, and that's a very elementary way of talking about it, but that's what we've been doing. I don't do it. Like, I ask people to do it. Like, I send texts reminding us, and I'm like, that's a great idea. And then I don't do it. It's almost like me asking, and my brain says, Well, you're the leader, you called people to do it. And it's like it, my whole point there is I'm just like what you're describing, because you know what happens when this quarter ends, when our small group wraps up. I won't do it. I will feel literally like, oh, I did it, so now I'm on vacation from doing it, you know, and and it's like, wait, that is so off, but it's so deep. Like, I'm very convicted right now of how I love being distracted. I love not thinking about stuff. That's the best. I love it. And and I that's one of the things, honestly, why do I want to be in heaven so much? I'm like, so I can stop thinking about stuff, you know? And I'm like, wait a minute. Oh no. I think I'll think about a lot of stuff in heaven. I think you have more things to think about. Yeah, and I think it'll be beautiful thinking. I've made it ugly because when I think about stuff, I put the responsibility on me and I'm like, how will I make this happen? That is the opposite of the spirit of the sheep.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

It's like, oh, I I thought about this. The savior will take care of it, the master will take care of it, you know, the shepherd will take care of it.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Well, that's that that's a beautiful picture. Because I think about like I obviously the dynamic I talked about with my little little study and my not living up to this commitment I made over the past couple days. Um, obviously that's not an unfamiliar dynamic with me in terms of spirituality or anything, whether it's you know, spiritual, spiritual stuff, diet, you know, whatever, whatever it may be. And I think that attitude of like, no, the master's got it. Like, I think that's really good because like right now, my choice could be like let's just say I this conversation hadn't happened. What was probably gonna happen was like I probably wouldn't have done it for a couple more days, and I wouldn't, my my my guilt would have kicked in. I'm like, okay, no, I gotta do it. Or at least, hey, we're meeting on Monday. I gotta do it at least a couple days before so I can report back. Well, I had a little break, but at the end, I I really got back on my horse. Uh sheep, I got back on my and I and I and I and I and I uh I was able to follow through with with the commitment commitment I made. And I think obviously following through with commitment is incredible and it's important. And I think if between the time I meet with these guys, all 14 of those days, I had not woken up and stared at my screen for all 14 days, I think I would be much the better for it. But the more important part is like is actually taking the step to recognize like, oh man, I I got distracted by some I got distracted by a voice that wasn't my master's master, what what are we gonna do here? Master help me, you know, figure figure it out. And I think that that is the beautiful picture that I think we're getting here. Yeah. So what perplexes you? Yeah, so I think that the the the this is one of those things if this was all that we had for scripture, one of the one of the biggest lines of questioning that we would have is is five, but they will never follow a stranger. In fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize the stranger's voice. And I understand what he's talking about in regards to I think the Pharisees. I think there's like a there's a specific jab he's given to the Pharisees right here.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Yeah, there's a reason why the people aren't responding. Yeah. They're responding to me in the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

But also when I equate it out to like to what more does that is there like we just spent a good 30 minutes talking about like kind of blowing this up and and taking it farther beyond the Pharisee conversation, but once I begin to do with that with this specific thing that Jesus is saying, I'm like, do I believe that? Do I do I know that to be true um experientially? Um and the answer is I don't know, and again, like that's touched a little bit on what you're perplexed. And so maybe it's just an echo of your perplexion. Um but I this is one of those things where you know G where they talk about, you know, we'll be known by our fruit. And I'm like, so often the fruit is not good. And so I'm left in a place of going, like, okay, if if they will know us by our fruit, and it's like, man, I know a lot of people that are producing like a lot of good fruit, but then I also know a lot of people who are producing some trashy moldy fruit. What do I do with that? I mean, honestly, if I'm being real right now, the biggest struggle that I have in terms of like doubt towards God or just struggle in belief is like I I'm not I don't struggle at all believing like that Jesus is the way, like this is all tr like this is true and good, and if every human being lived did their best to live out the ways of Jesus, that that the world would be more like heaven, and that I I don't struggle with that right now. What I struggle with is the idea that so many people claim to hear the master's voice, and then the fruit seems to be not there. And I have some ways to think about that about like I don't have ultimate perception of fruit, I don't have I'm not I'm not experiencing all of it, I'm not seeing all of it, I'm not tasting all of it, which is weird to speak of other people's fruit of tasting it all. But there's so many things where I struggle with here. Let's let's be I'm not you don't have to speak to this, but let's just be incredibly real. In terms of the world, in terms of people who claim the name of Jesus, some of the people that I see that have the best fruit in the world, like truly like seem to be like living out in miraculous ways following Jesus, are like Mormons. And there are things about Mormons that they believe that I think are fundamentally like not of Jesus, and yet a lot of their fruit seems to be good to me. And like one of the things, and I I don't I don't feel like I need to work this out, but there are people that believe closer to what I believe about Jesus. Or at least they say. They say, Yeah, and their fruit doesn't, and so like I this is one of those like continual things for me that has been one of my biggest sources of doubt and struggle is like this dynamic, it's just there, and like I'm gee gee speaks to it, and yet I feel I feel unsettled about it continually.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Yeah, and and I do think this would be the downside, as you said, with this being the only passage in scripture, something just for the record, if you just started listening. There's more. We don't think this is the only passage, but if it was, the re the reason I like it is simplicity. But yeah, I'm like, if if the passage didn't exist, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, if the passage didn't exist, that he died so that he so that I could become God's righteousness, if the passage didn't exist, that it's his grace that saves me, this passage would be terrifying to me, you know, because I'm like, oh, I get distracted. I must not be the sheep. Uh like maybe I love the message of the thief sometimes, you know, I'm not the sheep. And so you do have to take it all in. But yes, uh, at the that that is one of the more difficult things. I remember what's a DC talk quote, and I don't know who they were quoting in a song years and years ago, but you know, the thing that non-believers don't find the most hard to believe is not necessarily that God is, but rather you believe God and then I see your fruit, you know. And if God hadn't told us, hey, they're gonna know you by the fruit, we'd be like, ah, quit quit taking pot shots for like, oh, the non-believer in this statement is actually quoting God and saying, What am I supposed to believe here? And I'm not letting the non-believer off the hook. They have a responsibility to God themselves, but I also can't deny, and this is why I go back to man, I've got to lead with humility, because it's like this is a scary passage on its own, because I'm just owning I can't say that I will never listen because I have too much evidence that I listen to the thief quite a bit. And and that's probably my biggest success is recognizing I listen to the thief quite a bit, and I need to fight that. I'm not my own worst enemy, but I can collaborate with my own worst enemy. And so it's that dynamic that I think is yeah, it is truly perplexing. Um, yeah, I'll just leave it there. And and what you said, I'm like, yeah, and if it's not Mormons, it's the person that's I'm an atheist, but yeah, they've sold all their stuff and give it to me for it. I'm like, okay, you know, I'm not gonna deny that's a good work that I think Jesus can work through. Um yeah, so there it is.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

And and I totally we don't have to maybe I'll cut this part out. I say that a lot, and then I usually don't, but maybe I'll cut this part out. Um I I do like the the atheists setting all their things and going to serve the poor. Um I have I have plenty of space for that in just so much as like that person is made in the image of God. Um, and they were like it's not hard for me for them to for me to see how anybody who maybe doesn't have um it it's not hard for me to to see uh an atheist or a Muslim or Mormon or Jew um do things that are in line with God because like they were made in his image and there's all there's no matter what, there's going to be there there's gonna be crossover, and I think in times are gonna be more and certainly in times are gonna be less. Um but the thing that the thing that I this is the vision of the church that compels me. It's like if we're all sheep and the Holy Spirit dwells inside of us, um, and Jesus says that we will do greater things than than he had done like I have seen I have seen greater things done and yet I haven't seen them in the quantity that I would think I would. And I think part of that is that I don't have eyes to see all the time, the greater things. Um and I think part of it is that we have we have a we have a lot of people, and myself included at times, um, that are so distracted by the voices of the robbers um that they uh and distractions of the world um that they have effectively um quieted down the voice of the spirit that resides inside them. Um and so for me we talked earlier about when the church is good. It's like the church is good when people who are m who have the Holy Spirit inside of them are marked by it and living their best to be like Jesus, living their best to be like Jesus and allowing themselves to be sheep herded by him. Um, like that's when the church is at its best. And I believe that happens all the time, and I believe it's happening currently around me, and I believe I often don't have eyes to see, and I'm gonna pray to God to give me eyes to see. But then also I also don't want to lose I also don't want to lose I also do not want to miss out on the idea that it's not happening as much as it could or should, and I want to be open to being a prophetic voice if that's not the case.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Yeah, I I love that. I join you in that. I I I would want five more minutes on prophetic voice, but I know we're out of time. But yeah, love this discussion, lots to think about.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Lots to think about. Grace, peace, and love. I guess a prophetic voice right now is not forcing my pregnant wife and child to cower in a room while they don't cower, they're just chill while we finish up recording. Grace, peace, and love.