Susan Magsamen (00:01):
I think the reason that it's been so well received is because it's like water to the thirsty. We are so parched and we really need something different. The indigenous cultures, and there's still 5,000 indigenous cultures around the world. Many of them don't have a word for art because it's how they live. We've rarefied arts, we've commoditized it. We've said it's good or bad, but the reality is it is our birthright. It is how we are wired.
Opening (00:30):
Welcome to Brainstorm by us against Alzheimer's, a patient center, nonprofit organization. Your host, Meryl Comer, is a co-founder, 24 year caregiver and Emmy award-winning journalist and the author of the New York Times Bestseller, slow Dancing With a Stranger.
Meryl Comer (00:48):
This is Brainstorm and I'm Meryl Comer. Our guest is Susan Magsamen, founder and director of the International Arts and Mind Lab Center for Applied Neuroaesthetics at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and co-author of the New York Times Bestseller, your Brain on Art. In part two of our conversation, we discussed how technology and AI are best used to advance the evolving science of neuro arts.
Susan Magsamen (01:17):
I believe that technology should be in service of humanity, and in thinking about that, I think there's a huge opportunity for technology to be a catalyst for dissemination and for scaling of these types of arts interventions, and also to really help us with the kinds of large data sets that we really are creating to be able to understand the role of these art forms on individuals, but also on the collective. And so I think we are at a crossroads with how we begin to really integrate technology in service of the work that we're doing. And with the neuro arts blueprint, that's been a real focus is to be able to think about what are the very practical ways that technology can help us. And we've really thought about three different areas. One is in thinking about imaging and non-invasive technologies and biomarkers. We don't have great biomarkers for arts and aesthetic experiences, but I think that collaboration with technology can help us in terms of interventions.
Susan Magsamen (02:20):
There's some beautiful work that's happening where virtual reality is being used with technology. There's a product called Meta Rhythms that just got a FDA breakthrough. It's an appliance that attaches to your shoe and it changes the rhythm to help you with gait if you've had a stroke or multiple sclerosis or some other kind of motor learning type of issue. There's many programs that are coming out that sync up autobiographical music for people with Alzheimer's and dementia. So technology in application can be really important. And then as I mentioned, the third area is really around dissemination and scaling. And I think that we're really at the beginning of building these very strong relationships with technology. I think there are red flags in terms of AI and all of the warnings that technology can bring, but I think it's up to us humans to make decisions about how technology is going to serve us and what it means to be human, and what are those skills that we need to be human, which are around creativity and collaboration and imagination. And I think that we're at a really important crossroad.
Meryl Comer (03:30):
Susan, can you imagine a time when primary care physicians actively recommend engagement with the arts as an integrative solution in lieu of medication to relieve pain, improve mobility and wake up memory?
Susan Magsamen (03:44):
Yeah. Well, that's part of what the neuro arts blueprint is really about, is a comprehensive systematic approach to making the arts and aesthetic experiences mainstream in medicine and public health. And so it will take an army of the willing, but I think we have a really strong foundation to be able to do that. And the first thing we've done is brought all the researchers and institutional leaders and artists and arts programs together. So breaking down silos, that's been the first thing. And now we're really mobilizing around three different areas. One is evidence. What is the evidence we have? What's the evidence we need? What are the infrastructures that we need to build to make sure that we can create a sustainable field? And then what's the community of practice? What are the messages and what do policy makers at different levels need to hear? And we've begun conversations with at the federal level, policy makers also have begun them at the state and local level in corporations and also with healthcare providers who are really beginning to become very interested in this.
Susan Magsamen (04:50):
And I think what we need to do is be able to make sure that we know what each other needs to be able to move this forward. AARP has funded a really important economic analysis that said, for Alzheimer's and music, Alzheimer's and singing, when you use music as a form of intervention for agitation, general behavior, there's a three to one return on what gets spent over medication and other kinds of interventions. We're now doing a true value economic analysis that basically says, okay, that's one sliver, but what if we were looking at caregiver? What if we were looking at family? What if we were looking at the quality of life for the person who has Alzheimer's? If we begin to look at these multiple variables that are really the true value of this experience, what would that allow us to do from a financial point of view?
Susan Magsamen (05:44):
And I think those kinds of arguments are very important as you start to sort of craft policy that helps to be able to change the way that we do that. And you're mentioning what's sometimes called social prescribing or arts on prescription in other countries where there is social medicine doctors, social workers, healthcare advocates, link workers, or sort of similar to social work here are already prescribing museum visits for Alzheimer's patients, dance for Parkinson's patients, expressive writing for stress and anxiety. There's another really beautiful piece of work that's happening with postpartum depression where several European countries are using a protocol for singing and humming with moms and babies where moms are experiencing postpartum depression and they're seeing a dramatic decrease in depression by humming and singing a couple times a day. And so these are pretty extraordinary programs that are starting to scale all over the world. And I think this is the place where the United States really needs to catch up is
Meryl Comer (06:47):
One of the challenges for the field of neuro arts. How to rigorously quantify the optimal dose and duration of the therapy in order to gain adoption by the broader scientific community.
Susan Magsamen (07:01):
I think a lot about that messaging and approach around the time of the Renaissance. We started to marginalize and devalue the arts, and we thought that rational thinking and science was going to save the world, right? And I think that science has, and medicine has done an extraordinary job. And I think what we need to start doing now is leveling the playing field. Right now, I think science and arts, there's a hierarchy that science is the pinnacle and the arts have to meet the standard of science. And I think we need to have a different conversation. I think that we certainly need rigor. We certainly need the ability to replicate data. We definitely need to be able to have clear taxonomies and career pathways and certifications. But the arts are different. The arts are not the same as science. And I think we have to start to think about how do we develop a new narrative for what we mean?
Susan Magsamen (08:01):
So if the gold standard is a multiple site clinical trial, then let's understand what are the variables that are really important to show so that we're able to reach the kind of funding models and sustainability and growth that we need to happen. And so dose and dosage is important because we want to know the metabolism that right concentrations of different types of art forms for some things. So dance and Parkinson's is a really good example of that where we know that people that dance more often and dance longer actually have their symptoms relieved longer, which is extraordinary. That's very similar to the way that you might think about medication. But we also know that for some people that sit down and listen to a piece of music one time, they're able to really feel that sense of relief. And so I think of this work as the arts, as ingredients, and those ingredients are gonna be used to create a recipe depending upon what you're trying to make.
Susan Magsamen (09:01):
And I think we have to really think about what are the principles around neuroaesthetics and how do we bring them together? And I think that's a little different. The other thing I want to say is that for many of the pharmacological drugs that are used for, let's say depression, we don't know how they work, but we know that they do work. And so we've approved them. So what is the threshold for art? Do we need to know how they work all the time in order to know that they do work and have outcome measures, standards? So I kind of feel sometimes that this field is a little bit like the Wizard of Oz, where we keep being asked to bring the broom and then the shoes, and really we just want to go home <laugh>. So I think there's something about reframing who's in charge and what's being asked for.
Meryl Comer (09:46):
Susan, what are your current projections on the cost of developing and building out the neuro arts blueprint?
Susan Magsamen (09:54):
So we have been really working very hard to frame out first the recommendations and then the implementation plan, which we now have. And we've raised about $3 million for the blueprint to date. I'd like to raise about 10 more million dollars. I feel like with that funding, it would allow us to build the resource center to be able to build these community neuro arts coalitions, which are hyper-local activations in communities all over the world. And we've already started that with three pilots in the United States to be able to create something called the Academic Research Network, which are university partners, again, all over the world. And to be able to really lift up these messages and community building that we need to create the policy recommendations and the strategies, and then to also continue to advance the evidence, which is really important, and to begin to start to seed some of that work. So it's a five-year plan. We are in year two, so far, we're ahead of the plan in terms of milestones, and we've had a lot of really wonderful support from all over the world where I think of it as we're co-creating this field together with researchers, with practitioners, with policymakers, with journals, with all of the stakeholders who are really benefiting from this work.
Meryl Comer (11:10):
The World Health Organization has declared brain and mental health. Among the biggest challenges for younger populations globally is the timing, right for your neuro arts blueprint.
Susan Magsamen (11:21):
You know, timing is everything. And I don't think when we started this work right before the pandemic, we could have known how vital and essential this work is. The pandemic brought us to our knees, no matter who you are, where you live or what you do, we all have really struggled. And I think that the social fabric that we've come back into is so frayed, and we're so fragile and so vulnerable that this work, I think, speaks to healing at all levels. I think it speaks to community, and it also speaks to the promise of creating a world where we are finding more meaning and more purpose, and finding new tools to really be our greatest selves as individuals and also as a society and as a world. And I think the science is the underpinning of that. And you know this book that I wrote with Ivy Ross called Your Brain on Art, I always say this book is a love letter because it really was about marrying the science and the stories around all the moments in our lives where these things that we call arts and aesthetics integrate into our day-to-day lives, into our families, our communities, our workplaces.
Susan Magsamen (12:34):
And I think the reason that it's been so well received is because it's like water to the thirsty. We are so parched and we really need something different. The indigenous cultures, and there's still 5,000 indigenous cultures around the world, many of them don't have a word for art because it's how they live. We've rarefied arts, we've commoditized it. We've said it's good or bad, but the reality is it is our birthright. It is how we are wired. And Wilson, the evolutionary biologist, I was able to interview him before he passed, and he talked about the fact that it was when we harnessed fire and came around the campfire at night where the daytime practical left and the nighttime of possibility came into being. And we wanted to create values and beliefs and pass on knowledge that we hadn't been able to pass on. We did it through storytelling, we did it through dance, we did it through singing.
Susan Magsamen (13:30):
We did it through visual arts and wall paintings. Those are the emotional bonds, the biological chemical bonds that hold us together internally and knit us together and hold us together as community. And somehow we've marginalized that and forgotten it. And so I think we are in a moment where the alchemy is possible, the shifts are possible. And it doesn't have to be everybody agrees. We're not flipping a switch. I think we're turning up the dial and we can turn our own dials up. And I met it with this guy named Emmanuel Pratt, who runs an urban farm in south side of Chicago. And he kept saying to me, small is beautiful. And you know, I'm a big thinker. I'm like, you know, change the world. And he's like, when you have a lot of little beautiful things and you connect them together, you've got a big thing and you've got strength. And that's how I feel about this field. Maybe millions of people that are doing their thing, but when we connect each other together, we have a fabric, we have weaving. And I love that. I think that's a really great metaphor.
Meryl Comer (14:30):
Recently, the WHO recognized the contribution of the arts to the promotion of good health and the treatment and management of acute and chronic conditions across the life course. They've also named internationally acclaimed artist, Renee Fleming, a W H o, global Health Ambassador for her program, music and the Mind. Susan, do you have any final comments or thoughts to share with our audience?
Susan Magsamen (14:58):
Well, there's two that I'll share. One I'll attribute to TS Elliot, although we weren't allowed to do that because I couldn't get final confirmation, but the world is full of wonder waiting for our senses to awaken. I think that's the first. And then the second is arts create culture. Culture creates community, and community creates humanity. And I think now we know so much about the neurobiology of how that happens, that it's validating and reaffirming.
Meryl Comer (15:29):
Our guest, Susan Magsamen, founder and director of the International Arts and Mind Lab Center for Applied Neuroaesthetics at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and co-author of the New York Times Bestseller, your Brain on Art. That's it for this edition. I'm Meryl Comer. Thank you for brainstorming with us. Our team is on a mission to help you stay up with the latest scientific breakthroughs from new therapies to technologies on early diagnosis and personal brain health advice from well-known experts using an equity lens that promotes brain health for all. Now we'd like to hear what's on your mind, what are the topics and guests you'd like to hear featured on brainstorm? Send your comments to BrainStorm@UsAgainstAlzheimers.org.
Closing (16:23):
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