Up My Hockey with Jason Podollan
Up My Hockey with Jason Podollan
EP.162 - Dennis Maxwell - Top Draft Hockey Advisor - The value of mentorship and proper guidance
Dennis Maxwell, former NHL scout and 14-year pro, shares his journey from player to advisor and reveals the hidden factors that determine hockey success beyond just skill and statistics. We explore the psychological barriers that prevent players from reaching their potential and the importance of role acceptance, growth mindset, and authentic self-development.
• Reflecting on career choices and learning to adapt to different coaching styles
• Understanding that coaches are primarily focused on winning, not personal vendettas
• The importance of accepting your role on a team and finding ways to contribute
• How personality types and interpersonal dynamics influence hockey career trajectories
• The critical difference between fixed mindset and growth mindset in player development
• Why some less skilled players have longer careers than more talented prospects
• The value of mentorship and proper guidance in navigating the hockey system
• The role of player advisors in protecting young athletes and providing honest feedback
• Building credibility as an advisor through honesty and maintaining integrity
• How self-reflection and personal development continue even after your playing career
If you're interested in speaking with Dennis about player advising, you can reach him at topdrafthockey.com or on Instagram at dennismaxwell_topdrafthockey.
And, like you were saying, I never realized until I actually looked in the mirror and said you're a bit of the problem here, Dennis, Maybe it's the system. And you know I used to say, oh, it's the coach. The coach is trying to screw me over, right? Eh, coaches want to win hockey games. I don't think they're in the business really of screwing kids over. They're in the business of winning. And if you can't help them win, then maybe I shouldn't be there, right? And you know, I realized as I started self-reflecting in the mirror saying, Dennis, you could have done this better. And then, as you get a little older, you realize that how can you help the team win? You're going to play on the third line. Yeah, I'm going to play on the third line.
Speaker 2:I want to play on the third line as a 32-year-old guy? No, not really. But guess what? If I can help the team be successful, I'm going to do it right. That was 14-year pro, former NHL scout with the New York Islanders and currently a player advisor with Top Draft Hockey, dennis Maxwell, and you are listening to the Up my Hockey with Jason Padolan where we deconstruct the NHL journey, discuss what it takes to make it and have a few laughs along the way.
Speaker 3:I'm your host, jason Padolan, a 31st overall draft pick who played 41 NHL games but thought he was destined for a thousand. Learn from my story and those of my guests. This is a hockey podcast about reaching your potential.
Speaker 2:Hey there, welcome to, or welcome back to, the Up my Hockey podcast with Jason Podolin. I am your host, jason Podolan, and today we are speaking with Dennis Maxwell, hailing from Dauphin Manitoba, dennis was an eighth-round draft pick in the 1992 NHL entry draft to the Tampa Bay Lightning. He ended up playing his junior days with the Niagara Falls Thunder of the OHL, got traded to Sudbury and also played with Newmarket. He had a long, storied professional career throughout the AHL, the IHL, the ECHL. Was also in England for a short time before he came back to the Central League. So 14-year career. Many, many teams stuck around hockey. Once he was finished and got into scouting with the New York Islanders, was an NHL scout there for, I believe, eight years and then got into player advising. So Dennis was also a teammate of mine with the St John's Maple Leafs in the 96-97 season. So that was a ton of fun to actually not 96 97, it was 98, 99. And it was great to reconnect with him. I have not spoken with him since 1999. So that's a long time ago, but it was awesome to see his face.
Speaker 2:One of the best parts about this pod is things or I should say episodes like Dennis Maxwell and people that come back into your life, unbeknownst to me, that he was involved in hockey. I didn't know what had happened with him or to him. And then his name got brought up in a player recruitment discussion that we had that he was advising a certain player and all of a sudden, here we are in the podcast and I'm able to reconnect with an old teammate. So, yeah, awesome stuff. I wanted to have him on, I mean, for numerous reasons. The fact that he was an NHL scout for eight years is a big deal. The fact that he is now a player advisor, that he was a professional.
Speaker 2:I was going to focus in more so on the player advising side, because I think that's a murky topic for a lot of players and parents out there. You know the need for one, yes or no. You know what do they do, how do they do it? Is it a pay-to-play model? Is it not? What's the difference? There's so many questions there around player advising that I thought that we would get into.
Speaker 2:And Dennis is like a straight-ahead guy. I mean, he was a straight ahead type of player If you look at his hockey DB and and, uh, you know, look at the amount of penalty minutes that he put up. Uh, you know he was, he was an honest guy, he was, he was straight ahead, he was hard nosed, he fought for what he got, um, you know, literally and and figuratively and and he was just honest, played honest in in his discussions and in his conversations and I knew that we would be able to get some straight answers, uh, from Dennis. Uh, the only problem not that it's a problem is that we we just kind of BS and shoot the shit here for for an hour and 15 minutes. You know about all things hockey and I think it's a great discussion, but I didn't really get into the player advising stuff until right at the very end and we didn't specifically talk exactly about, you know, nhl scouting and what they're looking for and that type of stuff, although we have had discussions on the podcast about that stuff before. So this is a more of a generalist conversation, I would call it about the ups and downs of hockey and what players can and should be focusing on. It was a great catch upup for Dennis and I and I do think it's a conversation that you'll find entertaining and informative.
Speaker 2:I do have to say I don't know, I was a little fired up, I guess on this interview I do drop, I believe, the occasional F-bomb, maybe once or twice, so that's not usually my style, but so it goes. There's your fair warning. So, if you have young children in the car, apologize to them for me, or maybe you might want to skip this episode. But, like I said, it's just, uh, it's a couple, I believe, if I remember correctly. So I wanted to give fair warning on that. Um, but other than that, uh, hope everyone is well out there. Uh, and I trust that you will enjoy, uh, my conversation with Dennis Maxwell of Top Draft Hockey. And if you are in the situation where you believe that potentially you need to speak to someone you would like to have representation, top Draft and Dennis is a great place to start. You can look them up at topdrafthockeycom. I would definitely vouch for Dennis and the work that he does, knowing that the type of human that he is and hearing the rave reviews from the people who have worked with him. So if that is somebody that you or something that you're looking for, I endorse Dennis and other than that, let's get into our conversation with Dennis Maxwell.
Speaker 2:All right, welcome to the pod. The Up my Hockey pod with Jason Podolin. Welcome to the pod, dennis Maxwell. Thanks for having me. Jason, did you ever think that you were going to be on a podcast with Jason Podolin Frick? Well, we didn't even know what podcasts were 20 years ago. That didn't even exist. So you know, it's kind of a little bit of a time warp, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It really is and, and you know, just ended up. You know how we touch base there again in the last couple weeks here, and you know, with hockey it's just a small world, right, it's nice to see this come full circle oh, it's freaking a riot.
Speaker 2:When your name came up, I was like smiling ear to ear. It's so funny, like I don't know. I just said that to my wife when you, when, when we were chatting before I pressed record there and I had to go get my coffee, I was like I was like a little kid in a candy store. I'm like it's just so fricking crazy. I just love that about hockey. Like that I can see you and yeah, we're grizzled now, but it's like it's like we're in the locker room 25 years ago instantly, like you know what I mean. It's just wild, it's fun.
Speaker 1:It's nice, it's nice. Yeah, buddy, you still look great. You still look great.
Speaker 2:You look around the same, honestly, when you look like you play again. No, you do. I said I. I for those listening I the first thing I said to Max I'm like it looks like you never took a punch in your life and, believe me, that's not true. Right, I took a few, took a few, but I tried to tie up a little more. You know it's the guys like the sean thorns who went a little more toe-to-toe, right, but then so, yeah, so I learned a few things. Yeah, that's, um, it's a, it's a great game and I don't know if you would ever thought I would be behind a mic, but I got pushed into this. By the way, we never really talked about that.
Speaker 2:So I was like, when I was getting into the, the, you know the mental side of the game, which is an interesting conversation, I'm sure we can, we can talk about anyways, you know, with the players that you've had, uh, that the, the lady that I was working with, actually was a. It was, it was a young guy that was. That was a hockey, used to be a hockey player, and so when I I was work, I was doing business coaching. Actually, I don't even know if any, I've ever even told the story on the pod. But I was doing business coaching with like executives right like visit, like health business coaching essentially, and so I'd been doing that and it was going successful. I was just switching into my own business and then this guy was helping me and and then he heard my story and he's like, well, he was like I mean, what you're doing is great, but he's like why, like why don't you have this same type of thing for for hockey players? I mean, you're a 10 year pro and like you knew my and I was like why why aren't I doing this for hockey players? So it was like it was one of those ones where you got kicked into.
Speaker 2:And then I was like, okay, and then the next step was the lady that I was working with and they're like you have to have a podcast. You know you gotta have a podcast. I'm sure you'll be able to ask good questions and you know, and I I went into it essentially kicking and screaming because it was the last thing, the one I wanted to start to. I thought anyone would be interested in listening to. You know, like there's all these like personal kind of vulnerability moments that you have with yourself right About, like, who wants to listen to me, or you know, you make it about yourself until you don't make it about yourself, and as soon as it's not about yourself, then all of a sudden you have a product Right, so, anyway, so that's kind of the whole, the whole scenario of me getting into this, and, and one of the things I'll end with, though, maxie, is like it's been such a gift for like this right here.
Speaker 2:You know, like that I've connected with so many old teammates, and the conversations that I've been able to have has been absolutely fantastic, and, and all the bullshit that goes around it, like the part that I don't like about this podcast, it makes up for it with the conversations that I get to have. So I'm really appreciative that you were able to come on, and I'm looking forward to having a chat with you. I feel the same way.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me Looking forward to this chit-chat here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I guess for those listening, so we're down here in Coeur d'Alene right now and Jeremy, uh Milmock, who was a guest as well, he's the head of hockey down here. He was. He was working with uh, with a player, and and trying to recruit a player to come over here, and and uh, and in the conversation with me he's like, yeah, his advisor, uh, dennis Maxwell, is. You know, I've been working with him and and I'm like, why do I know that name? And uh, and he's like, well, because you played with him. I'm like, yeah, I did play with him. And I'm like that's right. And so then, like that was when I had the big smile on my face and then, uh, so anyways, we were able to connect through that. Now here we are. So, um, let's get back into you though. Like so we, we actually crossed paths now going through that hockey db, like in in Greensboro yes, so it's funny, right Post.
Speaker 1:I'm glad I was memorable in St John's for you to start off with.
Speaker 2:Well, hey, roger Maxwell like. Dennis Maxwell. I had Brian Maxwell as a coach in Spokane. It's like all these Maxwells and I'm like well, and then I was like, yeah, okay, click and names is not my thing either.
Speaker 1:So I remember my first camp is when I first met you in Greensboro. So you were drafted. You were drafted to Florida and I remember because I remember there was Nasruddin there yourself I'm trying to think Was Krom the coach, was Krom or the coach Krom? Yeah, krom, krom, right yeah, and so yeah, from her, right yeah and so yeah. And then and then obviously we played together in st john's when you were with with toronto and I was on a, an ahl deal. You were still on the big ticket over there, but uh, yeah, that was when you had a. You had a great year that year. I think you had about 40 or 45 goals that year, if I remember. Yeah, playing with you. But you know I was never your type of player but had a couple different roles than you did.
Speaker 2:So well, but yeah, but that's the beauty of it, right, like there's, there's I mean there's a place. And actually I looked at your season that year too, like shit, 200 pims and nine goals and 20, some odd points and 40 games, like that's no joke. I was. I was kind of, uh, well, you know what, let let's backtrack, because I want to talk about that, because there's a lot of guys out there that want to figure out how to play pro right and how to stay pro and what it takes. And you know the paths are all different. Let's talk about your path. I mean, you were an NHL draft pick, eighth rounder to the Lightning coming out of where, niagara Falls Is that where you got drafted?
Speaker 1:from yeah, I was traded in my last year's 30th game. But yeah, I was drafted out of the Niagara Falls Thunder.
Speaker 2:Right, and that was your year that you had 20? Yes, yes, yeah, so draft pick out of Niagara Falls. So, on an NHL, you know, depth chart, prospect, depth chart. So, on an NHL, you know, depth chart, prospect, depth chart. Talk to us about, like, what that was like even at the time. Was that something that you were expecting? That year? Were people telling you you should have had your name called, you know? So it was the year of the European invasion, right, that's the year, I believe, nikolai Borshevsky, it was the year.
Speaker 1:So 92. That was the year when I found they went European heavy. You know, I believe, nikolai Borshevsky, it was the year. It was the year. It was in 92. That was the year when I found they went European heavy. You know, I had a good season, you know. You know, you know Poets it's funny right, like I could. I was never a legit goal scorer, right, but I could, I had some skill. But then I had to bring some other things to the table to be effective, right. So 20 goals. Yeah, I played for George Burnett actually, and had a good, good rookie season, right, 20 goals, I think, 26 assists. So I was told I was going to get drafted, maybe a little bit higher. Still, got drafted, could could have been, you know, one of the most proud days for my, for my, my grandparents, my mom, my dad, you know, my sister, all my friends were there. But it was great.
Speaker 1:And look what's on the wall behind you, well, yeah. So I, you know you gotta be proud, no matter what levels you play it at. You gotta be proud of yourself, right. And 92 Maxwell Right, that's right. So you know, it was junior for me. I, you know, I think you have to.
Speaker 1:Junior is a big step, right. And then you get drafted and then they want to see progression. Right, you got to see you go upwards, right. And if you don't do that, you kind of flatline. You know it's a, you know, in two years before you know what you're not, you're not signing an NHL deal, right. So you got to kind of figure out well, shit, I'm not signed. I think they offered me, if I remember correctly I found the paper, if I think think like $15,000 at the time for a signing bonus, and my agent was like no, no, hold up, we're going to get more money. What I know now I would have taken the $15,000. Got my foot in the door, right. But you don't know, right, you just don't know at that time and I just kind of flatlined in junior.
Speaker 2:That's the honest to god's truth, right.
Speaker 2:That's why I never signed the nhl deal with with tampa. So if you were to go back to that, because, like, what an important time, and that's really like the for me it's I get a lot of joy out of working with that age group because they're all hungry, right, and they all, they all really feel that pro or the nhl is is still an option, you know, or an option, or maybe an NCAA, whatever it is that they're chasing right. They're arrogant enough to think that they've figured out most of the stuff, but they're also sometimes humble enough to to like, with the proper guidance and advice, like, see what they don't see. You know, and and I think that there's such an amazing opportunity that 16 to 19, if you can learn some of these habits pro habits like how to think, how to really take your own development into your own hands instead of just being a part of the environment you're in, you can do the thing that you're sounding like you're saying you didn't do, thing that you're sounding like you're saying you didn't do right.
Speaker 2:So what? What was your? What did you learn from those three or four years after you got drafted that you could have done again, maybe a little differently. Great question great question.
Speaker 1:And? And what? What I would have done differently, I would have taken it more seriously, right, and? And when you get drafted to the NHL, you're on cloud nine. You, you think that's geez, my dream is there. No, no, that that's just the start. They just call it your name. Right?
Speaker 1:And if you don't put the work in, you know off the ice, have the right, you know, be around the right people to direct you in the right direction. Right, and this is one of the reasons. Well, you know that I got into this advising. I wish I had some more mentorship in my life. Right, someone to say dennis, this, you don't need to be going out, you need to be in the gym, you need to be doing this, you need to be a good teammate. These are things you need to work on in the summer.
Speaker 1:And I didn't do that. Right, I was just yeah, I got drafted, oh, great, oh, now the real work starts, but I didn't know that, right, and when you don't put the work in, the effort in, you know, like we didn't know how to really train back then, like I was eating Big Macs and large fries and trying to, you know, bench press 300 pounds, right, that's not. That was the wrong thing to do. Right, what do you mean Really? You're like, oh, going out having beers, you know Big Macs, and thinking that's for your summer, or you know, but I didn't train right, didn't take care of myself. Those are things that are putting yourself in better situations. Then I got traded right. Things like that where it just snowballs right, it just snowballs. Especially when you don't have, you know, say, someone like yourself or myself in someone's corner to say, hey, this is, you're heading off in a different direction here. Right, let's stay focused. Right, that's what I. It's probably why I didn't do as well in junior as I should have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can kind of, and that's such a personality type.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's a lot of factors involved, right, but that's one of the interesting things that I find with working with players is, like some guys, some guys are overly hard on themselves and some guys are too easy on themselves, you know, and and there's there, and then you have the guys that are more middle, middle ground, and I think, for me, identifying that when I'm working with with players and I'm sure you, I mean we're almost doing the same thing, I think in a lot of ways, right, like you as an advisor, you're, you're mentoring, you're helping, you're, you're trying to guide the ship a little bit, and and for me, like, understanding that personality is important, right, because, um, you know, it sounds like you were kind of cruising, right, like life's good, I got 20 goals.
Speaker 2:Right, I've drafted the nhl, like you know, why would I change anything? Now, you know where you maybe need a little bit of a kick in the ass to say, hey, you're not even close yet. Partner, right, like, let, like, let's go, you know, let's go. And I think that those kind of those lucky in the eyeball moments, you know where someone's being honest with you is, you know, and then the the player either takes your or doesn't take the info, right. But I think that those, those conversations are needed.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent and and you know it's, it's it. There's a, there's a buildup where you know I I wouldn't say I was, I was a great teammate when I was younger. I did, I was, I was immature, right, I I probably honest, honest to God, pose, I'll be the first one to admit it. I took criticism very hard. Right, I took.
Speaker 1:There was a lot of things that I took to heart, right, and sometimes, when you're not mature enough to handle those situations, you, you, you act out right, or you, you know, and you just, there's so many things that I wish I could have done differently, but at the end of the day, I did them and I made the bed and I lied on them and still had 14 years, probably not the level I want it to be every year, but still finally figured out, maybe around 28, 29, when it's too late, right, right, and you know, doing what I do now it's very important and what you do is it's very important to with these kids, especially at the young ages, to give them the right direction. Right, or maybe even they're they're fighting you against it, but I think in time they're going to realize you had their best intentions and we're, and we're setting them in the right direction, right, you know.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's why I love what I do.
Speaker 2:No, a hundred percent. Yeah, the uh, and that's why I really, for me, it's like such a cross section, because I've always I was always, I should say like really interested in psychology, like I just would read it. You know I was, I was always interested about it, just naturally. I was always kind of the guy, if you had a couple of beers, that somebody would be telling me their problems, you know, and it'd be like let's, you know, let's have a chat or whatever, right, so I kind of was, I don't know, I was sort of that guy that was would draw that type of.
Speaker 2:And then you have like the history of you know, obviously, being a player, and then you can see your own faults and your own weaknesses, like from, uh, from outside the prism that you're in, you know, and and uh, and yeah, now to go back and connect all those dots, like I really, really enjoy what I'm doing today and like my own boys make fun of me, like they're like how the hell did you not play more games? You know, like, because they see clips and they see whatever, and you know old scouts will talk to them and you know, blah, blah, blah, right, but it's like you know what? Yeah, it could have gone potentially different. You know, something's my fault, something's the system's fault. You know, like, whatever it is, what it is, that's life.
Speaker 2:But like I wouldn't be doing this podcast right now and I wouldn't be talking to players and helping them be better and, I think, hopefully adding value to the game as a whole if, if I'd have millions of dollars in the bank account, right Cause I'd be fricking water, skiing or fishing somewhere, right, and and although that sounds good, like I really do believe in like giving, like the idea of of helping and giving back is such a great spot to be in, you know, and I think that's probably why you're doing what you're doing. I mean, like that feels good going to bed at night, a hundred percent, and you know it was funny.
Speaker 1:So after I got fired from the Islanders, you know, my wife's like well, what are we going to do? And I was calling around, right, looking for another job in Ontario, and I'm like, listen, I'll move down to the States. And I just had this aha moment. I'm like, no, I'm moving back to Greenville, south Carolina, to be closer to my daughter and I'm going to figure stuff out, right. And I'm driving down here and a buddy calls me from this advising company. He's like hey, dennis, do you want to stick around and do you want to get into this advising? He goes, I think you'd really, really enjoy it. I'm like absolutely not. I'm tired of hockey, right. I was kind of just worn out, right. And you know you're trying to. You know you're trying to stay in on the scouting gig and it was a great 10 years learned a ton. But then you're just a little tired, right. And then he's like think about the bigger picture, you can help kids. I'm like, okay, thought about it. I'm like, talk to my wife. She's like I think you would be great at this. I think you'd love to do this.
Speaker 1:Next thing, you know, here we are four years later, just under four years, and my wife said I've never seen you happier. You know, paul, you got it. You got to be in these kids corner, right, you got to know that you have someone in their corner sticking up for it, right, and like and like you were saying, I never realized until I actually looked in the mirror and said you're a bit of the problem here, dennis, maybe it's the system. And you know I used to say, oh, it's the coach. The coach is trying to screw me over, right? Yeah, coaches want to win hockey games. I don't think they're in the business really of screwing kids over. They're in the business of winning. And if you can't help them win, then maybe I shouldn't be there, right.
Speaker 1:And you know, I realized as I started self-reflecting in the mirror saying, dennis, you could have done this better. And then, as you get a little older, you realize that you say, okay, I want to play longer, you got to do this, this, this and this. Right, how can you help the team win? You're gonna play on the third line. Yeah, I'm gonna play on the third line. I want to play on the third line as a 32 year old guy? No, not really. But guess what? If I can help the team be successful, I'm going to do it right.
Speaker 1:And that's why you see successful nhl careers, right, sometimes like polls. Like you know, you, you scored a lot of goals in junior and in the pros, right. And then there's other guys you know we were discussing earlier that had great careers in it, but they didn't put your type of numbers up, right, right, we look back and we say what did these guys do that were different? I'll tell you what they did. They took on a role. They did whatever they had to do to be successful, to help the team right. And I'm like kudos to those guys, right, kudos to those guys for doing it right. And I didn't figure that out for a long time yeah, no 100.
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Speaker 2:I mean, generally speaking, parents have really good advice, I think you know, like grounded good advice, and the thing is that I find with the advice is that sometimes, like when you're telling someone you know what to do if they can do it, but if there's not an authenticity behind what that thing is, if they decide to do it, then it's not real and then it doesn't last, right, it's like it's like a band-aid kind of. And the one thing that I've kind of felt and that's where I even go when I go back to mine, like I know my personality, right, and so me. We talked about a couple of the guys we used to play with doing push-ups in front of the coach's locker, right, like that was so anti what I was, right that I would actually like I would do push-ups, but it would be like I'm exaggerating in my bedroom, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like I remember one year I did go to a different gym than everybody else, like I don't know. Like that was just my personality, right. But the thing is like recognizing that that was such a detriment to the optics of me as a hockey player, right, that could have crushed me because I could have been a guy that was too aloof, right, that I was a guy that didn't care, that I was a guy that wasn't putting in the work. It wasn't that I was not prepared to put in the work, I just didn't want to do it in front of everybody else and feel like I was being a fricking try hard, you know. And so that hurt me too, like the way that my perception of what that was. So like I like talking to athletes about that, you know, like what is your belief about how this appears? Or what is this your belief about work or development? Or you know, effort and and when we get kind of to the roots of that, now, all of a sudden, the advice now makes sense, right, it's like, okay, this now aligns, like I'm aligning this with who I am. I'm making a choice to actually show up a little differently, right In a way that is going to serve me and the team right In both ways.
Speaker 2:And I just think people drastically underestimate the personality side of hockey. And when I say mindset personally, like that to me is like that's one of the things. Like personality is a big one and the personality of the coach is a big one. If you don't understand the interpersonal dynamics between what that coach thinks and what he likes to who you are, you mean it's not his problem or your problem, but I think it's your job as a player to try and connect those dots the best you can. Right like get what he likes, get what he gets. I was too rigid in that for sure. Like I like the inner, the interpersonal dynamics in the play. I know I under, I undervalued that hugely. You know, like hugely and it's all about people. You have to be a good hockey player, of course, but it's all about people.
Speaker 1:You're a hundred percent and you hit it right on the head. I I see it with kids that are really successful, that I know, that are talented, but they're doing they're. They're understanding what the coach is wanting from them and you might have to take sometimes a back seat to that right of what your goals are. Right, I want to play on the top two lines. Right now you can't, but he wants you to do this, this and this and this. Can you do it? You're going to be successful, I promise you.
Speaker 1:Kid right, and it's hard, you know, you know, jason, when, when you hear you got to remember it. You know most households where kids grow up. You've been told if you've been a pretty good hockey player, you're great, you've done a great job. And then you start moving up the ladder and you're not told you're great as much. Right, some kids are, some kids aren't right. And I feel like when you move up and it's hard, you know when someone says, well, you're good, but you're not that good. Dennis, right, we like you here, but we don't love you here.
Speaker 1:Right, and you know, my job is to keep these kids motivated because they do get cut right. They they don't understand the role sometimes they have to play at these higher levels. Right, and my job is to make sure that, you know. Number one they believe in themselves, right, that they're still a good hockey player. And you've got to, because when a kid gets cut, that's you know, I don't care what age you're at, it's a big blow, right, especially when you get to the junior levels and pros and you know, dealing with some of these kids that are cut, I'm like, listen, you're a good hockey player In his eyes, he just didn't see it.
Speaker 1:That's all right. So we have to get you to another place that someone sees it. Right, but you got to keep believing in yourself, right, and and you know that's just you're trying to keep these kids. You're trying to keep them grounded. You're also trying to show them the way on how to be a pro, how to get to college. You know all of that Right. And what you said, jason, most of these you got to adapt to the coaches. You really do, and and if you can figure that out, so a lot of kids can be successful that are maybe not the most talented that was one of the first things I I chatted with the team about was, like the, the skill I call of coachability.
Speaker 2:Like you, you know, like that, and there's and there's layers to that right. Like you said that you didn't like criticism I don't think anyone really loves it but like, how do what do we do with that right, like, because, if, if, like, as soon as those words start coming and and I'm sure you can put yourself back there, right, like there's a resistance for a lot of people to hear it, and because there's that resistance, that mental internal resistance, we don people to hear it. And because there's that resistance, that mental internal resistance, we don't necessarily hear it because we're already having excuses in our head or we're already given opinions or we're already thinking about what we want to say. You know, like as coming back, so like you're already screwed really in that scenario, right, so like, and then there's, and then there's the guys that will hear it, right, that they're willing to hear it it, but maybe they've been told by their parents make sure you look the coach in the eye and make sure that you know you're not and so they're so focused on, like, doing this that they don't even really understand what the hell was actually said to them and they're not really sure how they're supposed to implement it right.
Speaker 2:And then the idea of if you can implement or execute it, how long can you do it for consistently right? There's so many layers to being coachable, because what does the coach want to see? He wants to see you do it again and again, and again, and again, and again and again, and he doesn't want to have to tell you five times. Now there's like how many things I just talk about there that are skills that nobody freaking talks to these players about or gets them to build about or gets them to think about. That's right, right, like it's way beyond whether you want to listen even or don't want to listen, but that's the starting point.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean it's, you know it's, it's so right. And just to touch on that, you know I remember I would. I would see guys that would get benched right and they would be rah, rah, rah, I'd get benched. I'd be sulking in the corner right if I, if I missed a couple shifts or I did this, and I was looking back at the coach when the power play is going. You know stuff like that right, yeah, yeah. And you'd be, and you didn't realize that the damage you were really doing. And I would, I would, and I didn't realize that and I, in my mind, I'm like no, I'm a power play guy, oh, they just want me to fight. No, no, no. But you're just like no. And I remember this and I remember this. And what it does is it carries with you for for a period of time, right until someone sees that you know you've matured, you've done this.
Speaker 1:And I remember I was playing in the central hockey league and I'll say his name is that he was coaching me at the time. His name was Paul Fixter and I wasn't playing very well, right, wasn't playing very well. He says you need to sit down. No problem, sat down on the bench, rah, rah, make sure. Every guy, because I was at an age where I understood, right, I can help the team by being a good teammate, or I can sit on the bench and still, because I'm 33 years old or 32 years old and whining, complained. All these young guys make right, yeah, so I did that. He comes out to me after the second period didn't, didn't, play me, a shit comes up, he goes you're effing back in the lineup, you're, you're playing in the third right because you are a good teammate and I and I'm just trying, you just haven't been very good this last probably week and a half right, but didn't, didn't whine, didn't complain, right, but that was 32, it was 32 right. You know you're sitting here saying like some of these kids can do it. You know I've got some kids here that have been pretty successful because they have the right mindset. I'm not playing on the power plate.
Speaker 1:Don't look at the coach, don't, don't. Don't look over your shoulder, don't. Don't give him the attitude like, yeah, I could score right now. He's not worried about that, he's trying to win a hockey game. Right about that. He's trying to win a hockey game, right, right.
Speaker 1:And you know poets, I wish I could have scored more goals, because then I probably wouldn't have to fight, right, but that didn't happen. So you gotta, you gotta figure out. You know that that happy medium, right? You like fighting, buddy, I, I, I figured out at a younger age. You can't go toe-to-toe like I see these guys. There's a lot of tough guys out there, right? I was never a guy. I've always guys asked me well, how do you think? Listen, I was smart. I tried to technical fight you because I know I couldn't go toe-to-toe with the big guys, right? Yeah, so I had to be smart. Let's tie a guy up, tire him out. Let's just work him out for a little bit. Let's not try to go toe-to-toe with a goddard or a zidane chara or a parker, probably a bad idea.
Speaker 1:Probably a bad idea. Yeah, only a few guys I saw do it when they were younger, and one of them was sean thornton, like that. You remember the year? What do you have? 35 fights. That year we played with him 300.
Speaker 2:Jeez, louise, yeah, every night, like I was just like jeez, yeah, every night, like I was just like, golly, I can't do that, that's right. You know what? Okay, so I, I love you, okay, so what you just talked about there and I'm gonna I'm gonna push back a little bit on it, just because the you played long enough and I played long enough to know and this is where I'm gonna get like focus again on the personality side of the game, because I played for coaches and this is the and this is where the game gets to be a game. I played for coaches that wanted you to be pissed off and look back at them and challenge them, and then there's guys that don't want anything to do with that. Right, and you're, you're the biggest, but you're the baddest team.
Speaker 2:And I had a coach that when the, when I finally went into his option and I thought like I thought this guy freaking essentially hated me, like he was like challenging me and doing all this stuff, and like and I went into his office and we motherfucked each other, and like that was the best thing I could ever done, and I thought I was being the most disrespectful. Like I finally got to a point where I like I was broke right. I was like no, not anymore, and that's what he wanted to see. The whole time was like this level of like fire, like that's old school coaching, but I'm still saying they exist, right, and like that's, for that's what he wanted. And yet there's might be a guy like Al McAdam that would probably would have despised that Right, like quiet Al, like you know, he didn't even want to have a conversation.
Speaker 2:I wrote him. You won't get into that, but all I'm saying is so we're talking with figureheads right that are in control of the situation, that are people with their own personalities, with their own likes and dislikes, that have an idea of what should happen. And now we're supposed to be navigating that as players. And and there is a piece of the navigation. You know, there is a piece of the navigation. There is a piece of the navigation Because there might be a coach out there that if you get benched and you're like smiley and cheery you might be like this guy doesn't even care that he's benched.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right, there's this double-edged sword, right, because there were a lot of coaches back then that wanted to get you angry. They wanted to get you like that and sometimes for and I hate to say this, but this is how I kind of seen it I wasn't that good that I had that freedom to say something to a coach, if that makes sense and I felt that when I did that, they thought I was a prima donna, right, or I thought I was better and I probably did. I always thought I could play hockey right, or I thought I was better and I probably did. I thought I was always thought I was a could play hockey right. But if someone like yourself maybe went in there who was a big part of the team, a big, you know, an up and coming, let's say, you know, prospect you might get, you might get away with a little bit more by saying things like that or not right, where I felt that I was kind of borderline well, you're not that good, that issue you're, we can get rid of you quicker. We can look at you right, right and and you're, you're valuable to to to an extent. So know your role right, figure it out and be a part of the team, right, and I just think it's like anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's some kids again leeway. You know, I've got kids that I rep now and they're like well, don't see this guy's playing on the park? Just, everybody, calm down. There's probably reasons why. Right, you know, you just haven't got there yet, right. But I know we all want it now. Right, we all want it now and there's a process and there's things that you have to do, and but you're right, right, there was coaches that loved when I fought, but then there was coaches like I don't need you, you know, running around taking back, which was true. Yeah, there was this fine line of who the guys I played for, that that I really got along with or didn't get along with, right, but there was a lot of mind games back then well and and just to like, what I'm trying to emphasize is like you brought in some hockey elements and hockey.
Speaker 2:Hockey is, of course, at play, but there's so much that is non-hockey, related to the decisions that get made about what ice time you get and where you play. That's my whole thing. That gets so underestimated To your point. Maxie, I scored 42 goals I was leading the AHL and goals at 22 years old. I got three games with a non-playoff team toronto maple leafs yes could you imagine that happening now?
Speaker 1:I I remember and I believe, I think, I think, uh, adam merrimite, I got called up. Was he playing with us then?
Speaker 2:well, okay, so then what? What? What's the disconnect?
Speaker 1:I know, I know, and it's, it's. It's that that's the problem, right, because a lot of guys like you know, there's guys that get called up that you're probably looking at going why. Or another kid gets called up before another kid has had a great month of hockey but he doesn't get called up. I don't know if it's because he's been drafted higher, I don't know if he's in the plans. Nobody knows, right? Yeah, right, like nathan dempsey, right, remember, back then, like you were top scorer and lonnie mohanis, right, if I remember correctly, right, yeah, you know, did I think lonnie got called up at the end of the year, right, and did amazing and did amazing in the playoff run, but he wasn't called up, remember, remember, when he came down poets, like he didn't want to be there, right, he just was laying around.
Speaker 1:Oh, we got a game tonight. Uh, okay, big deal, right, only guy I've ever seen go out. And then he's like oh, you guys want to win tonight. He gets three points, four points, we win the game, right, but I it's funny, right, when you look at it and you just don't know what their plans are. Right, you're right, I don't know the rhyme or reason, right, why you didn't get called up when you were on fire?
Speaker 2:well, probably that's my thing in gold, yeah, but it's the. I think it is like when you talked about, it's like the optics of, of what of? Of the person in that scenario. You know, like and again I was so focused and that's the thing that I try and steer guys away from is like, yes, we want to perform. However, that is that you perform in whatever role you have. You want to. You mean, if you're a face-off guy, win face-offs, right. You're a PK guy, do great on the PK. Your score, score goals. You have to perform on the ice. But I just thought that that was it. You know what I mean. That was it. If I, if I was a guy that did what I was supposed to do on the ice, then those players move on.
Speaker 2:But there's so much more to it than that, right, like, did Al McAdam like me? Why did he? Or didn't he like me? What was he saying to the, to the guys up top right? Like, what was the message coming from our assistant coach? Did I have a good relationship with them? Did they think I was out too much? Did I think I showed up too late? Did they think I didn't stay long enough? Right, did they think I cared about the team. I don't know what their perception was. I'm guessing that those were all probably negative factors for me. Right, that I presented in a way that they didn't feel that was that was OK, because everything else was in line, right?
Speaker 1:well, yeah, well, I would say yeah, and, and you're right. But you know, if I was, you know, this is just my perception. Let's just say about yourself, right, I would have never thought that. Right, I would have thought that you were a guy that they appreciated. Right, I would have thought they were a guy that they looked upon. You know, because you know, I, I, you know, a lot of times we, we look at it like the playing time guys getting, if the coach really likes them, right, yeah, or, or, but it's hard because you know you would see someone like yourself. I think cone got some games that year, a lot of slap call, remember, corner, yeah, right, but was you know and, and, but I look, and you're right, I don't know what the perception was of you, but I, but I, there was no reason in my mind you couldn't have played somewhere else, like nathan dempsey, right, and been successful.
Speaker 2:I, I don't know, I, I, I wish I had answers for that, right, and you can right, it's such a puzzle right, it's such a puzzle, but I mean and again I didn't mean to make that about me but like that's, like that's where my that's where my excitement has come from, like this other side of like shining a light on just aligning. Right, you want to. You want to give yourself the best opportunity possible, the one to be the best player you have to be, and that's really where I start with everything right. Like you need to maximize your potential as an individual. Right to get to wherever it is you want to go. That's going to give you the best opportunity, right. So how do we talk about that in a way that puts you in control of your own development destiny? One right, and then two, to understand the bigger picture of the game, that the hockey is definitely not just about hockey. Right, you need to stack blocks on blocks to give yourself the best, and they still might not fucking go right.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, know I've always said this, poets and and I honestly believe this, hockey's a beautiful sport but it's a shitty business. Yeah, and I say this to everyone, and you've got to kind of, you know, you got to kind of navigate through all of this right and, and you know there's no, you know we were talking about kevin adams. Look at the career he had. Kevin Adams, right, didn't put huge numbers up, but what he did is he did a lot of different. I felt he had a ton of intangibles right. And you know, when you look at guys like that or someone like I'm just using guys that we played with right, sean Thornton, who played 600 games, I believe, in the American Hockey League, in sixth in the NHL, like, come on, yeah, right, he was barely playing but he was fighting his way to the top and he was a good teammate and oh right, two-time right, two-time Stanley Cup champion, yeah.
Speaker 1:And when I look back and I was like, but we used to party, like I remember Al's wife came up to me one night she's like Dennis, you might take it a night off. I knew I was never getting called up, I knew I was never right, like, take a night off from going out here tonight. Dennis, right, we got a big game tomorrow, right, you know. But it's just the things that you know, you look at and I, I'll be honest, I didn't know Sean Thornton would play 600 games in the NHL and win two Stanley Cups. Yeah, oh god, no, right, you know, I didn't, I didn't.
Speaker 1:There was guys that I'd look at and be like, yeah, you know. Then you're like, wow, and I just kind of model and I, I've learned a lot from playing with a lot of different teams, poets, I've been on a few different teams, I've taken a lot in and I try to use that with my kids. Right, I got the t-shirt in the closet of probably not what, probably what not to do, right, and and you try to come across where you're like, hey, this is how you can be effective, this is how you can do this, this is how you to give yourself every opportunity to be successful. That's it. I don't know what, what level that's going to be, but I'm trying to set you up to be successful at any opportunity that might come your way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. And if you took those like so the three players from that team which is actually interesting even to do that little like investigation that played the most games was Sean Thornton, who you know fought his way essentially into the NHL and would do whatever was required. John Thornton, who you know, fought his way essentially into the NHL and and would do whatever was required, like so that's why I would kind of define him he was somebody that was going out all the time. He'd be the first to admit. You know what I mean. That was just part of what he was, but I think that was part of his mental makeup too, like it didn't matter, like he'd go out and he would show up, he would go out and he would show up. You know what I mean. Like it wasn't, he was kind of a pro when it came to that. You know, like just that nothing would affect him. He was so consistent when it came to everything. And then we had kevin adams who he was a first rounder but I didn't see him as a high skill guy but he freaking was a pro, right like the way that he always early I'm always a team guy always, you know, didn't go out very much, you know, like kept to himself, kind of had looked, seemed like he always had his eye on the target of what he wanted to do. You know and correct me if I'm wrong with any of these guys. And the other guy was Nathan Dempsey, who, at that time, what a 25 year old captain or a 24 year old captain, the AHL like that's the kiss of death. You know as best as I do. A captain, an ahl captain, at that age, like you're already, like you're not considered a prospect at all at that point. And uh, and it wasn't like he was lighting up the ahl by any stretch of the imagination, but this was a good, good human being that had his head in the right spot, that was a pro from day one and kept trying to get better. Like that was my perception, I remember, for him. And then all of a sudden he goes and plays four or five hundred games after we left, like I wouldn't classify those three guys as the best players on our team, a hundred percent.
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Speaker 1:Hydration is important and Biosteel does their part. So go out there and grab your biosteel. Uh, today, 100, I'll be the first one. I used to be the guy like I look at at ads. Are you little geek here? You're little little coaches. You know what? He wasn't care, he didn't care, he put the work in, he put the time in. I tell my kids now does it matter? Does it matter when?
Speaker 1:When you go into the gym, are you worried about what the guys you worry about, what you're doing, right, you worry about when they tell you to do 12 reps, you do 15, 18 reps. You don't have. You don't have to make fun of other guys that aren't you know, that are putting, are putting in the hard work, cause, let's be honest. But when you get to these levels here and these kids, you know they go, look at this guy, he's the coach's pet. He's no, because what? He's working hard, yeah, he's putting the time and he's putting the effort in because he wants to be successful, right, you don't learn that until you get a little older, cause these kids can be, you know, or you know you get a group, you know, in a room there's guys that hang out here. There's guys that hang out here, right, and you're like, oh, look at him, right. No, he's doing it the right way. Let's take, take, take, listen to that guy and I'll tell you that.
Speaker 1:And this is this is one of my, one of my favorite. So when I was scouting with the Island, I wanted to draft Kyle McLean, okay, and to me at that level of junior race. So he was drafted at Oshawa, okay, and he played for Oshawa. He wasn't drafted to the NHL, okay, and I wanted to draft him and he was a guy that probably put up, I think, 40, 50 points in the OHL right Pedestrian.
Speaker 2:Pardon me, pedestrian, for for draft picks, like you saying. Like, doesn't jump off the stat sheet at you 100%.
Speaker 1:Right, and he had everything that I felt that this kid, if you want a guy on your team for me, I said when we were in the draft room. I said I really like this kid and I think we should draft him. You know, sixth or seventh round, and I wouldn't say I didn't know that obviously we were going to sign him as a free agent Okay, in the summer, right, but that was just on an American league deal. I don't know any of this, right, yeah, and, but he was the first kid that I'd seen in a long time in the scouting that we just overlooked those guys Cause they're not sexy. They're not sexy, they're not, like you said, a be in your american hockey league. He's probably going to be your captain. He's going to teach these prospects the right way to play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah to me that those guys are still hard to find and when they are, you hold on to them, right. The casey sezikis of the world right, those are guys. To me, though, those are glue guys, right, and kyle mcclain, for me, was one of those guys, but I wanted to get him drafted because I felt we had to get some of these guys that played like him a little bit of love, right. Well, he signed a three-year deal with the islanders. That's what I'm talking about, right, right, but you know what you're getting every night, and that's a guy that works his ass off.
Speaker 1:Everybody I talked to and I remember like I just loved the way he played, because he just wasn't you know the I hate to say this, paul, but some guys that are really offensively skilled and all of it, it's just come some, it's come easy. Some have put the work in, right, but it's nice when you see a kid like you know McLean be very successful, right, how do you not? How do you not like that? How do you not like that? Right, and I've got some kids like that and I'm I'm in their corner 100, because I know they're not the the most skill, but I know what they bring to the table, right for the team.
Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah, he won't mind me talking about him because I've had him on as a guest, but like, so, luke buss is a guy that I've been working with for for a couple years now. I don't know if you know the name, but he was out of the BCJ. Um, he that's when we started working together. He had just been, he had been dropped by by his university. He had kind of at the last chance as an overage to make something happen. He had a rough start and Vernon, you know, when he came back then he ended up getting traded to Nymo and boom, takes off like a rocket ship, like ends up being, you know, top five and goals top 10 and points ends up ends up going to wisconsin like his dream school, where his dad went to the whole nine yards, you know, like kind of salvaged his, his overage year and uh, and so we worked together that whole bcj year and then, and then last year as well, wisconsin.
Speaker 2:But wisconsin didn't go like the way he wanted to, right, it was like 15th forward, you know, like not. I think he might have played two games and, like you know, three shifts in the games, and, and and was defense and practice, when he was a forward, because one of their d-men got hurt, so he was practicing as a d-man, all you know. I mean like not at all the year that he wanted right in any stretch, in any capacity, but guess what he did? He, freaking, showed up every freaking day, every freaking day. He did the extra every sunday, you know like he did all the things that we're talking about right with a smile on his face, and it wasn't always easy, right, but he gave himself the best chance to develop in that environment under the circumstances that he was given, and at the end of the year the coach had gained so much respect for him. He was like you know what, like I just don't know if there's going to be a place next year just on this team and who we're bringing in for you, but like I want to go to bat for you and like let's, let's see what can happen here anyways, and he's at union this year and he's like like that would have never have happened, right, ever when one. He wouldn't have got better too, he wouldn't have earned the respect from his coaches and stuff.
Speaker 2:Like to help him, you know, find, find a spot to go to, to, to be willing to answer the phone call right to say, and yeah, this is a guy that you want on your team, like we wish we could have him, like you want this guy, um and yeah, and so now he's, like, he's earned that next chance, right, because of the things that he did, the choices that he made, with how he wanted to take control of his development.
Speaker 2:And I like how do you not fall in love with that story? You know, like, how do you not fall in love with that kid? You're right, like and that's the difference again, like there's where people come into the hockey game, right, like how you show up and the people that are around you, that see that are now your supporters, that are part of your dream, a part of your goal. Like it's not just you, there has to be other people involved in it. And he got other people involved in it, not because he was pretentious, not because he was fake, because he was authentically did the right thing. There's so much value in that.
Speaker 1:It's, it's there's so much value in. And your coaches, you know, for me are, are some of your biggest advocates right, and they, you know for me, are some of your biggest advocates right and they can kind of, because they call these colleges call, or the pros they call, they talk to the coach and if you're not that kid where he's like, I know, for I know that there's been poets, when, when let's say it's uh, you know, toronto called down to the st john's maple leaves, you know that the coach is going to say who's going to make me look good, who's going to make me right? There's other factors, like you're saying behind the scenes, that we don't know about. Right, and I've been called just on players. When I was, you know, coaching and I get called on players and I'd be like I would be pushing the guys that I knew would do well, or or you know, let me, let me retract that when I was with the New York Islanders, they would ask put a list together, right, of players that you think would be good, free agents, right, and at the start, when I first started, I used to try to go for skill, right. I'd say, okay, a kid that maybe you know I'd look at, I'd watch him during the year and I'd say, okay, a kid that maybe you know I'd look at, I'd watch them during the year and I'd be like, okay, and it's not that they would let me down, but they didn't have some of the other intangibles, not all of them, okay, so those kids get drafted, okay, but I found that I would, I would push more on the skill set and then I would find out that after a while would be the guys that did a lot of the other things that were more successful when I sent them to camp. Right, yeah, and I don't know it was, it was just weird, it was I can't, I can't put you know, a finger on it to say, but the kids that were really skilled, that worked really hard, they were successful.
Speaker 1:But I found that the kid that was always overlooked and I got him to camp, coaches were always very happy with him. I can't tell you why, right, but there was just there's this difference of players, you know. You know, like sean dersey, poets, poets like I. I said sean, sean dersey was a kid that I wanted to go to camp with the outers. He didn't do well, but he's making $5 million a year in his team now in Utah. Right, there was a kid that I liked, but I saw those things in him. Right, I saw those things. I'm like man, this kid can play Right and and and a testament to himself. He did it Right, it right.
Speaker 1:But I'd send some other kids to camp and I'd be. I'd get the phone call oh, this, this kid didn't really work too hard at, you know, training camp or whatever you're like. Oh boy, right, yeah. So I'm gonna find those guys that are dogs on a bone. I mean sorry, right, yeah, I mean those are the guys I want. Yeah, we're gonna give themselves every opportunity to make the club. If that's on the american league east coast, those are the guys I'm looking for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those habits are huge, yeah, and those I mean you said, like the phone call, like I think that that's worth talking about because, whether it's an NCAA recruiting school to uh, you know, to a junior program, or whether it's like the scenario that I already talked about, you're in the AHL and the GM calls down and asks you know, like these, these guys answering the phone, they're not in the business of lying for you because it it exposes them, right, like they have to be honest, right.
Speaker 2:So whatever that honesty, wherever that comes from, like they, they're going to be honest because their job is essentially and their integrity is on the line with it. They're not going to promote somebody they don't believe in because that just makes them look bad, or they're not going to say, no, this kid's dialed. You know what I mean. He works hard and he works hard all the time, and then you show up and you can't even find the kid in the weight room. You know what I mean. It's like there, right, like people who are around you every day see your habits, they see what you're like. They see what you're like with your teammates, with the staff that are involved. You know all the rest of that and that is what gets portrayed on the other end of the phone call period, right?
Speaker 1:a hundred, percent, a hundred. And those coaches, those coaches will not lie. I will not lie when I call a coach, okay, because they will not pick the phone up when I, when I call them again, if I told him that you're a top six forward and you get there and you're not a top six forward, he won't pick the phone up again. And, and I'll tell you, I had one of my first clients when I first started. His dad was saying to me and love the kid, but he's like well, dennis, he can play in a top six. I'm like he's not. I can't call coaches up. My credibility will be shot and I have to think about the kids that I have coming through. That I have to worry about as well. Right, I can't lie to a coach. He won't do business with me again. It'll only hurt my business and my players. Right, and I've learned a lot, like I've I'm every day.
Speaker 1:You know you're dealing with. You know all these different levels and, like you said, coaches don't lie. They, hey, maybe, maybe they'll say they'll say something to a guy and he'll take a guy in, maybe. But their credibility is on the line, right, their credibility, all of it. And that's how I feel in this business I can't lie. Every kid has deficiencies, but's all to me it's all workable, right. All these kids, they're young, they're immature, they still have to work on certain aspects of their game, but they all have some deficiency and they all got positives that you're like wow. Now I just have to tell you that. But I can't lie to you about that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 2:Not if you do a good job, not if you do a good job, not if you. I mean, that's the thing that there are guys and that's probably part of the problem too, because there is some snakes out there and they just hop to you know different georg jurisdiction to jurisdiction and find a new coach. But, like the guys that have been in a while and the guys that have good reputations, like they're acting exactly how you just said, you know you're just being honest. The network matters, right, the honesty, the credibility, the integrity matters and, um, and even that like, I'm sure that you said that to your guys too like the guys that I work with, that I believe that I believe and I'm said I'll freaking break doors down for you, because if I believe in you, you know like, but if you don't, but if you don't haven't earned my trust, like if you can't show up for my call, or if you can't, you you know, get whatever work done. Like, what am I, what am I calling? What am I making phone calls for? You know like.
Speaker 1:Buddy, you summed it up and that's a lot of things that I say to the kids. You got to, you got to be committed. You know I can't. I can't be calling teams Like I had a kid, you know he, when things were going his way, he wanted to get traded and I'm like, yeah, okay, that that's, that's great. But I can only do this maybe one or two times.
Speaker 1:And then we got to start looking in the mirror here and say that you need to stay here, because I get the questions now when teams call me what's the problem? What's what's the problem with the kid? Why has he moved around so much? Right? What's going on? Is it, is it an issue with him, or is it? He's just not not good enough, right? And then you have to. You have to protect your, your, your kid and you have to tell them. These are the reasons why so.
Speaker 1:But you have to have these hard discussions with your client and say to them hey, we don't need to be moving around because you just didn't get on the power play this weekend. We don't need to ask for a trade, right? We've got to figure out how you can get better. Like you're talking back to our conversation 30 minutes ago about knowing what the coach wants, all of it. Right, what you have to do extra.
Speaker 1:You know, a lot of times with these kids, paul, you say to them you say, are you doing all these things that we discussed? And they go well, yeah, well, are you on the bike every day before the coach gets there consistently? Are you in the rate room? Are you the guy turning the radio on? Are you guys? Are you actually putting the work in, or you, are you the radio guy who plays around with and doesn't really get any work done? Right, what's the truth? Right, like I've been there. Right, are you putting the time in where the coach says, yeah, like you said, you can wear coaches down by your work ethic and what you said about that that kid earlier bus.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, where a coach basically says, like I don't think we can have you here, but I really want you here, that's the ultimate. Where a guy's going, the coach is going you are a pro, you're everything that that you would you. He's just doing it somewhere else. Now, right, that's all right. And I see those kids and when they do that, they're, I just, they just seem to be successful, I just see it Right. I don't know what you would say there, but I just seem to see those guys. They seem to be successful.
Speaker 2:There's a place for them. I'll tell you that right now. I mean someone's going to want you somewhere. And again to my point is like you want to be the best that you can be. That's part of the way that you have to be, you know, like that has to be the perception. This episode is also brought to you by Elite Prospects.
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Speaker 2:And that's that whole growth mindset versus fixed mindset. That I, from a psychology standpoint, that I've just fallen in love with whole growth mindset versus fixed mindset. That that I, from a psychology standpoint, that that I've just fallen in love with the growth mindset side of, like the choice involved with being growth mindset oriented. And there was a lot of ways for me personally where I was fixed mindset oriented, like more, like, if you have more skill, then you should be perceived as not needing to work as hard like that like. That wasn't something that I could actually articulate it at the time, but that's how I was more wired right like I am better, so because of that scenario, I don't need to work as hard not that I didn't work hard. I don't think anyone would ever say I was lazy. That's what I mean. Like, but like it would be the optics of what that looked like. Right, like that I can still go out and I can still score three goals. That I can still show up to practice freaking five minutes before it starts and score three goals. You know what I mean like. That was where I I felt, again, not consciously, but that's the way I was just wired at the time.
Speaker 2:Right and and now, knowing that, undoing that, understand, like, the growth mindset, principles of actually like, committing to, loving the idea of being the hardest worker as well as the most skilled guy.
Speaker 2:Right, imagine combining those two attributes of being the hardest worker as well as the most skilled guy.
Speaker 2:Right, imagine combining those two attributes.
Speaker 2:Imagine being the guy that's most committed to your development as well as the guy that has the quickest release.
Speaker 2:You know, like, like, you keep adding, adding value, adding value and like, and seeing that that actually supports you as an athlete and then also again optically as a as a human right, as as your personality, like boy, like now you're double ending things. And again, like you don't know that you don't know, like I didn't know the difference, I didn't know what fixed mindset was or growth mindset, right, and I didn't realize that there was ever a choice. It's totally a choice. So fun, right. And it's like what buttons do start seeing like for me, I, legitimately, with some athletes you can see like I'm talking double digit, like kind of performance gains, when you can just like on either unlock, untap, have them see something differently, uh, that boom, it's an explosion because, like you're not going to make someone skate faster in two weeks, but if you can undo or unlock something like mentally with how they approach either their preparation or their performance or their effort or their compete or their courage or something along those lines, it's like wow, blossom.
Speaker 1:That's so fun. It's crazy, right, how that can happen. And you know, paul, it's what you're doing here. I love it, I love it and I think these kids need it, and I'm a big believer that the more, the more you can work with yourself right, like there's only so much I can do, right. But and then there's someone like yourself who's bringing this to different element on the mindset Right, right, it's just, it's great. I wish we had these tools when we were growing up, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know these tools when we were growing up, right, oh shit, yeah, you know, and you know what the funny thing is, though, like I don't know, I don't know if I, like you, have to be willing to receive it too right, like, like I don't know, I was so wired like again, I don't know why I'm talking about me so much, I usually don't, but like I guess it's relevant, I think, to this conversation but like I was very island, solo, oriented. Now, looking back to right, like it was my journey, I was in control. I almost like felt like I didn't need help. I want, like I was, and I'm kind of that way with my business. To be honest, like I don't have any employees, like I've always just been driving, driving, so I haven't even kind of got away from that, but that was the kind of way I was wired. Like my dad offered tony robbins to me at 19 after the draft, like to help, like, like you know, like he was, he was up and coming, but he was still a big fricking deal.
Speaker 2:And I said no, I'm good, You're like that's an idiot. Like I would say yes, right now, in a heartbeat. Like I would say yes in a heartbeat, right now, right, so you like to your point. You have to be willing, though, too right, you can. Tools I don't know if I would have taken them.
Speaker 1:I know, I know, I know Times have changed and you've got to be up with the times, right, and you've got to give yourself every opportunity to get that extra edge and if that's the mindset, if that's the advisor, or if that's the work, it all, to give yourself that edge, because it's very competitive out there, right, yeah, especially with these new changes with the NCAA, it's it's uh, it's tough, it's tougher, but we can still. We can still make things happen. Right, I agree, you got to believe in yourself and and you know I got into this, this business, because I wanted to make a difference, I wanted to to be in a kid's corner and know that I got their back, because I know to navigate through this. It's tough, right, when you have parents saying, hey Dennis, this camp, this camp, this camp, you know everyone's pulling on there. You know you got to come here and spend $500. You got to do this, you got to do this. I get it.
Speaker 1:You know I've had kids traded, tendered, let go, right, it's all part of the business, right, it's, but you still got to navigate to make sure these kids are in good situations, Right, yeah, that's my job and I love it, buddy, I love, I love what I do and I'm learning. I'm, you know, loving being on this podcast and kind of talk and shop here, and wasn't it awesome? I'd love to shit. I wish you had had, you know, been in the mindset business a while ago when I was still playing, but um oh, yeah, it's, yeah, frick, it's so funny.
Speaker 2:Like that's again like I and I think, even talking about that, like how you were, like even you talked about how you didn't like, uh, you know, feedback or criticism, right, like that's one thing to say well, well, dennis, just listen to it. Dennis, just listen to it, maxie, come on, just listen to it. Or it's like some a parent saying you know, well, don't pressure, well, don't worry about it, don't look at it like pressure. Well, I mean, that's it's great advice, but it's like how and you know, poets, when I say criticism there's a lot of things.
Speaker 1:I was a sensitive kid. I had this, this, this, this bravado about me, but inside I was an insecure person, right. And. And as you get older, you know, I always had the bravado to make sure that you know that was just masking that I was insecure, right. And as you get older and you start to get past all of that and you're like, okay, you know. And then you start looking in self-reflection on I could have been this, I could have done this better. You know, you got to look back. But yeah, I've called up some coaches that I've been with and I'm like I'm sorry, I was an asshole, right. And you start to self-reflect, right, and what I go to like it's funny, I'm not afraid. As I've gotten older, I, I go to like it's funny, I'm not afraid, as I've gotten older.
Speaker 1:I go to therapy, I talk with a therapist and we talk about things and talk about your inner self and you know, growing up and right, you start to just evolve, right, and I do this because it just makes me a better person, right, it just makes me. I just I feel that I'm learning a lot more about myself, that I feel that I can help with kids long down the road.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why, oh, it's unbelievable, and that's what I like. When I use the word mindset, like, I just kind of think that it's approachable. Right Cause, like I don't, I don't qualify myself as a mental performance coach, really, because I'm not, I'm not, there's no academia behind what I'm doing other than being self-read right like, I don't have any degrees or certifications. Mindset to me, though, is like closer to what I do, but really it's personal development, like I I think like the like, when I'm working with athletes, a lot of it is like the self, the ability to self-assess, and and the, the, the forcing them to self-assess in different categories. Right, not only just their game, um, which is a huge skill for players. Like did you actually play well or not? And and where did you play well and why were you successful or not? Like, understanding that, understanding their identity, understanding some of these intangibles that we're talking about. Like their coachability. Like have you, were you ever asked how coachable you were? Or let's say, how competitive you were. Or let's say you know how resilient you were.
Speaker 2:Like these are all fun, great words, but are you good at them? And what do they even mean? Right? And? And if you do score poorly on it. Let's freaking, go to work at it, because there's ways to actually improve that. So, like what is that I could call it? But it's really like what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:That's personal development. How do you get better as a human to make you better as a hockey player? And the more that you stack those blocks on, like that's some juice, man. And that's really where I have a lot of fun with it, because at the end of the day and I'm sure you're in the same spot like these players want to be hockey players. Fantastic, I want them to be hockey players too. I want them to play for as long as they can, make as much money as they can. But if we're working on the human behind the hockey player, guess what? That continues on. That's right. That's after the skates are put away, and that's what makes our game a better place. You know, like we, you build better humans, better teammates, uh, better contributors. Yeah, they're helping themselves, but they're also helping themselves long term, and that's you know. Obviously, there's no, there's no losing in that one.
Speaker 1:There's no losing and, and we're not all going to play d1, we're not all going to play pro hockey. These are just some life lessons that, hopefully, are going to be successful with the right mindset. You know, in in the real world, right, right in the real world, I love it, I, I, I uh love that you brought me on here today and, uh, no, I'm buddy, I, I don't want to do anything else, I, I just love, I love what I do, I, I just it's always new, right, it's always a new experience, right, meeting a kid, working with a kid, the family, right. Um, you know, I've had some kids go off to college now and I can't wait to get to their first games so I can be there. This is stuff that I just, when I was younger, I just kind of sometimes wish I had.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure, I agree, I agree, no man. Well, maybe just quickly. I know I'm running out of time, I had to get out of here because I have to hit to practice. But, like, share with me, share with me why an advisor is good and and and maybe share with us why sometimes the experiences aren't so good. What, what, what makes, what makes your job add value? And and and how can it, how can it also not not be the color that it's supposed to be sometimes?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so so that's, that's a great question. So so kind of how it is, how I look at it is it doesn't matter what industry you're in. Okay, there's good, there's good lawyers, bad lawyers, good, you know, in between. But you need someone and I've said this and I kind of touched on it you need someone advocating for you. Okay, for you Okay, Because in the business we're in, there's a lot of guys that are just, you know, trying to collect money or do this or do that, and there's the bigger agencies there's in between, and then there's, I wouldn't say, bottom feeders, but I would say, just, you know, on the lower end, right, I feel that you add a value because you got to have connections as well.
Speaker 1:Right, you got to have the conversations, the real conversations with guys that I believe sometimes, when you're dealing with a coach, if he trusts you on what you've said to him or sold him in the past, maybe that only helps your kids. Right, and I think a lot of guys would probably say the same. You got to have the right connections right To put the kid in the right position to be successful. I know there's coaches out there Pods that they won't take a smaller guy right, or vice versa, or they, you know, I know what certain coaches are looking for. Right, that's the things that I need to weed out for my, for my client. That's kind of my, my, my, my value that I would say that you have to bring to the table. Right, you got to protect them. You know, kids get, let go, kids get, you know, traded whatever you got to make sure that it's the right situation. Right, because kids have a lot of leverage now, you know, I know that's hard for for coaches. You know, especially, you know some guys I deal with but they have leverage now. You know I know that's hard for coaches. You know, especially, you know some guys I deal with but they have leverage now. We didn't have leverage back in the day, right, you know, especially with these pay to play models and things like that, right, there's just a little different now the landscape, but you have to have a value that they feel that you can get them, hopefully, to where they want to go. Sometimes it's great, but sometimes their expectations are too high and you have to temper their expectation. This is where I see your son or your daughter, right, and I think there's sometimes that they need to come down where you have to have conversation, the hard conversations that everyone would like.
Speaker 1:I don't. I don't sugarcoat things. I have to be honest with you. I would rather do that, and if I lost you as a client, that's okay, all right, but that's how I do business, right? Well, I think you have to be honest. You got to be a straight shooter and you got to protect these kids. Right, you got to be in their corner. Don't say you're going to be in the corner. Be in their corner, right, right and protecting them, because they all need help and guidance, because I hate to say this, but these kids can be taken advantage of and I've seen it. Right, they can. And I'm not talking about, maybe, the higher levels, but at some of these other levels that can be taken advantage of.
Speaker 1:There's some coaches don't call me when I represent a kid. They go right to the kid. Do I love that? No, because I know you're trying to get into kids here. Right, because you're telling him this is the best scenario for him. Right, instead of calling me and saying hey, dennis, here's the situation. Let's talk about this. Great, I'll take this back to the family. We'll talk about it.
Speaker 2:Here's our options things like that right that I just that's an interesting question how do you handle, how do you like, how and I I'm maybe I'm wrong that it would depend on the personality, but that connection, like kids have a hard time communicating. Now, I find they have a hard time looking somebody in the eye and, you know, walking through a door and having any type of advocation for themselves, which is something that I really try and promote with them to be able to do that right. Promote with them to be able to do that Right. I, I believe there is a place for sure, someone to you know, make that call for them or to be that connection, cause you shouldn't be in there all the time. Right, everyone's different, but like, where do you feel that fits Like as far as you being the guy and them also being involved in some of those? You know, I don't know what the right way is, but you know, off the ice stuff the right way is, but you know, off the ice stuff, right, having a conversation with their coach right.
Speaker 1:So so I can, I can, weed things out, I feel, because once you've been doing this a little, while you start talking with the guys, you know when the coach is and what what a kid will be told is. He'll say, hey, he's telling me I'm a top six forward. Well, hold on, I just talked to him two weeks ago. They're not looking for a top six forward, they're looking for a bottom, a bottom, you know, bottom six forward, right, and that's where I feel that you have that's what you're paying me for, or whatever that is. I have to weed that out, because I know what teams and I kind of know where you fit in and where they see you Right, they see you right coaches will. Will I find coaches?
Speaker 1:I, I don't have a ton of issues with coaches. I feel that they're they're very straightforward, honest with you and they're like hey, dennis, this is what I need. Is your guy? This fit right? Great, yeah, he is, or he, you know what he's right here, but you know, right, I need all of that out. So I, I feel that they can be told something, and that's where I have to step in and say, okay, this is what I've talked to the coach, this is what I'm being the feedback. I have right, and you're being told by somebody else that this is the feedback, so we just got to come together and put get to a resolution on that, right, right, yeah, right because these things have a lot of teams pulling them in different directions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Right, and it's tough to navigate, especially for the parents.
Speaker 2:I mean I think there's a service there.
Speaker 2:You know, even me with, like my I mean hockey's been my life Like there's stuff that like we don't have an advisor or anyone for Hudson right, like I've I've been his advisor, if you, if you would call it that.
Speaker 2:But like there's times where I'm like, geez, I wish I could, you know, talk to somebody you know or like to know, and I can imagine if for the families out there that have never been involved in any of it, like it's impossible to navigate and to do it with any type of confidence. So you know, I mean there's definitely a place there for that. And it sounds like for you that you're working on the people side too, like you're checking in with your guys, like, even if it's not a business related to things you know they're doing, you're wanting to see them play and all that stuff. I think that's like when I'm giving advice to parents, I'm like you have to like the person like that you're dealing with, like for sure, and you have to feel that they actually care about you. If that's not there, I'm like don't go with the biggest agency, because they have the best guys, I'm never big groups, smaller groups.
Speaker 1:You know, I've got a kid here. He's going to uh, he was Austin Elliott, okay, and um, he's going to UMass Lowell, right. So so if he gets an entry level right, I, I, I working, possibly working with a bigger group, but I'm taking care of the kid Right and they understand that Right and. But I have the best kids intentions because I want him to be successful, right, and if I have to push him to a, to a bigger group, that's what I'm going to do, right. I'm not going to take a person, that's what I'm going to do for him to be have the, the, the, the best success, to sign an entry level contract and hopefully that's in two years, three years, whatever. That is Right, but that's what it's about. You're, you're right. When I meet with parents and kids, it's gotta be a good fit on both ends, right, right.
Speaker 1:I've, I've had some parents we parted ways, just couldn't, we just couldn't come together on where we thought they were. As a hockey player, that's okay, it's nothing personal, it's, it's just business, right, and vice versa, right, and. But at the end of the day, it's it's, it's the fit, and the kid has to feel that he's being taken care of, right. Yeah, you know that's that's that. That's the reality we live in, right, that's what I'm trying to do. I've got a partner down here in the us. We're, we're out of canada, you know, originally right, so we've got a pretty good reach and it's been buddy, it's been a, it's been a great four years. It's just every year just got you know better and better right.
Speaker 2:Well, if someone needs somebody who's looking for someone, I'll give you. Like, why don't you take the floor right now and, like say who you're with and on, really like, where, where would people find out about you and your company and the potential of working with you?
Speaker 1:topdrafthockeycom. Okay, you can reach me at dennismaxwell underscore top draft hockey if you're on instagram, uh, but that's that's where you can find me. So we've got a canadian in the us and, uh, we've got a couple guys in the us that I have working together with me and you know, we're we're just we're we're looking for for, for good quality humans, we're looking for good people, right, and we want to help. That's why we're. That's what. That's what we're here to do.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I love it, I love it, yeah, so definitely everything that I've heard, partner, now that I know that you're even in the business, like it's funny how, like your name comes up and then it's like it comes up, and then it comes up and it comes up, right, it's like it's you've, you've, uh, you've been a buzzword in in, in the background here for me lately and it's all been awesome, awesome things. So I mean your, your, uh, you know your resume is speaking for itself and I think you continue to do the right things consistently and that's that's what it's all about. I mean, we talked about that as a player. We talked about that now, as you know, as what we're doing, like you just try and keep continuing to do the right thing and do it with integrity and honesty and and uh, and usually that those that works out. So congratulations on doing that, cause you've you've built a nice little business and reputation for yourself.
Speaker 2:Same as you buddy, Same as you. I appreciate it. Well, thanks for the time. I would really wish we actually had more time because there's so much more to talk about. But I have to go to a practice and we can always do part two. Let's not just make.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm sure I'll be up, I'm sure I'll see you. I'm sure I'll see you. I might be down at CDA.
Speaker 2:That'd be great. Yeah, well, let's make something happen somewhere, someplace. It'd be great to catch up in person, but anyways, regardless, it was awesome to catch up and we'll be in touch, my man. Thanks for having me on, paul I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you. Thank you for sticking around and listening to that entire conversation with dennis maxwell. I hope you found it as enjoyable as I did. Uh, there's so much to learn from old guys like us that want to share our stories. If you are willing to listen, uh, I think you know.
Speaker 2:Looking back on that episode now, a couple days later, that's probably the theme is you know two guys that want to help that are still in the game, because we want to help athletes achieve their goals and dreams and we feel that, using our experience and our knowledge now, uh can hopefully shine some light on some areas that people miss. And uh, as Dennis said numerous times there myself included that there are things that we didn't know, that we wish we did know. We wish we had somebody in our corner that would maybe been able to help and guide. And, yeah, and the results of that experience is our experience, what we do now, why this podcast exists, why we choose to help athletes reach their goals and dreams and support the families that are involved in it. So, yes, usually I don't share as much as I did on this episode about my own journey, I guess you could say, through professional sports, and where I felt some of my own pitfalls were and you can see that I get passionate about that, though, because there's so much under the hood when it comes to the personality side of the game and the individuals, the people that are involved in the decisions and the people that are involved inside a locker room, and how you know what their belief system is and how they choose to show up, and what their belief system is and how they choose to show up, and what their personality types are like and how those integrate with each other.
Speaker 2:That aspect of the game is so, so important and is very, very overlooked by numerous people, and you believe, as I believed, that it is 100% about the type of hockey player that you are, and it's very, not 100% about the type of hockey player you are. So you want to align as many vectors as possible on your path, and sometimes that's taking a look at you as a person and how this, how this represents, or how this might be perceived by those around you, and and and doing things, um, by choice. You know that can aid you in getting to where you want to go uh, and recognizing that we can be authentic in these choices and we have the ability to change and that's where the growth mindset aspect of all that comes in, because rigidity when it comes to these things is not your friend, and that's where I think that one of my biggest things was is that I was rigid in my approach and the idea of being autonomous and being a free thinker and being somebody that I took pride in in my intelligence and in my approach and in my performance, that I almost swayed to the overly rigid side and that I'm going to embrace this aspect of me. You know 110% that I am not going to conform and meld and necessarily fit in, uh with the herd and uh again, that was not a conscious choice at all at the time, uh, but but one that I think I kind of subconsciously made at different points.
Speaker 2:Uh again, for me, I don't think I ostracized my teammates.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've had numerous conversations, pointed conversations about, about that, you know, and and I, I, I seem to be, uh, remembered as a, as a good teammate, as somebody that you know was, was somebody that would look after the guys which I, which I'm so relieved to hear, uh, but I do think that management probably didn't, um, see me quite that way and I think that that hurt um my my prospects and my chances of getting to where I wanted to go, so super passionate about that aspect and and and love to help players when it comes to player identity, personality, identity and how that shows up and looks and appears in a locker room.
Speaker 2:So thanks again to Dennis for being here and for sharing his story, for sharing what he does now. Again, I advocated for Dennis at the beginning, but he, by all accounts, does a great job for his players and for his families. And if you are looking for somebody in the player advising department, they're all not built the same. Like he said, there's good lawyers and there's bad lawyers, there's good doctors and there's bad doctors and I'm sure there's good advisors and not so good advisors. And I would definitely give him the stamp, the up, my hockey credential stamp for somebody that I would recommend working with and thinking that you'll get taken care of there. So that's Dennis Maxwell, top draft hockey and until next time, play hard and keep your head up.