Waheed:   0:00
This is Waheed Jensen, and you are listening to "A Way Beyond the Rainbow." Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi ta'ala wa barakatuh, and welcome to the third episode of "A Way Beyond the Rainbow", a podcast series dedicated Muslims struggling with same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and Islam. I'm your host Waheed Jensen. Thank you so much for joining us in today's episode. Just a kind reminder before we start: you can find all our episodes on our website: awaybeyondtherainbow.buzzsprout.com, and you can catch "A Way Beyond the Rainbow" on your favorite podcast apps, like Google Podcast, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, SoundCloud, Stitcher, iHeartRadio and TuneIn Radio. Joining me again in this episode as a co-host is my dear friend Aadam, who was also the co-host in last week's episode. Assalamu alaikom, Aadam!

Aadam:   0:00
Wa alaikom assalam, Waheed.  

Waheed:   1:26
How are you doing this week?  

Aadam:   1:27
Alhamdulillah, I'm really good. I've had a busy week, but I've been excited to record this episode. After our last recording, there was so much discussed and my mind was buzzing with ideas for how we could continue the conversation. So I'm glad that we're picking up again today.

Waheed:   1:44
I really cannot wait to be sharing with our audience the second part of our two-episode series that we've been putting together on self-love, compassion, connection, shame and vulnerability. As you remember, in the last episode, we spoke about the concepts of self-love and self-compassion, and the difference between shame and guilt. In today's episode, inshaAllah, we will be talking about connection. We'll be talking about how that is connected to shame, and what it means to be vulnerable and courageous. And we will tie everything together and wrap it up by going back to how all of this relates to us Muslims who live with SSA. Let's start by talking about connection and shame. I remember last year, I came across a Ted talk that left me in a state of... You know when you hear something, and you're left in a state of awe and complete, you know, you have so many "aha!" moments, and you think that this person really knows what he or she is talking about, and everything simply clicks? So I heard the TED talk of Dr. Brené Brown, and then I realized that she has another TED talk, which I listened to, and she has another Netflix special. And she had written so many books on topics related to shame, vulnerability and courage. So I got very intrigued, and I started reading and listening to her. And her TED talk, which is called "The Power of Vulnerability" has been viewed more than 40 million times. We will put the links to her books, TED talks and her Netflix special, inshaAllah, in our episode description. One quote that would serve as a good intro to this episode goes like this: "It's what gives purpose and meaning to our lives... Connection. The ability to feel connected is neurobiologically.. That's how we're wired. It is why we're here." So she starts by talking about connection, and, you know, we all need connection. And that's how were created - to be part of a community, to be loved, to love and to have meaningful connections with others. Anything that brings a threat to that leads to shame. That's how Brené sees it from all of her research and years that she spent studying all of these topics. She says that "Shame is a fear of disconnection... Is there something about me, that if other people know or see, that I won't be worthy of a connection?"

Aadam:   4:38
Hmm.. Just like that's the essence of it right there! It's like she's just condensed the whole thing into that one sentence and said "Right! Like, this is it!"

Waheed:   4:47
Exactly! Exactly, yes, and I believe that almost all of us listening now - I'm talking about, you know, people who struggle with same-sex attractions. "Is there something about me, that if other people know or see, that I won't be worthy of connection?" That hits the right chord for all of us, I believe. We have grown up realizing that we have, you know, all these feelings, desires and orientation, our view towards life and to certain things are different, our interests etc. We feel, because other people are different, and this topic is talked about in a negative light, "So how do I deal with this? I feel ashamed.. Because if they find that, if they find out about me, then of course, that connection is going to be severed." And she said something very interesting. She says, "No one wants to talk about it. And the less you talk about it, the more you have it. And that's shame." The less you talk about these things, the more you have them. The more shame that you have.

Aadam:   5:57
I have something to say on this, actually. Waheed and I have been, you know, we talked about setting up the podcast and how we would do things, before we even began recording. And when we actually began to plan for the episodes and started recording... I haven't told you this before, but it really relates to this quote of, "No one wants to talk about it, and the less you talk about it, the more you have it." But I've really felt an incredible sense of shame, because I felt like I don't have anything to offer on some of these topics. Like some of the things that we're speaking about, I actually felt, and I convinced myself, that I don't have that much to say, like maybe a sentence or two. But that's it. And I felt like, if I told you that, you would think less of me. But this is a great example of, "No one wants to talk about it." I didn't want to talk about it. "And the less you talk about it, the more you have it." So now that I have said that out loud, hopefully the less I'll have it. This is a great example of us on this podcast talking about connection, shame and self-love. And we're, you know, we're experiencing this on a normal day-by-day basis,

Waheed:   7:34
Right, exactly. And it all ties back to shame, and it permeates so many aspects of our lives. We feel ashamed because we're afraid of losing connections with others, we're afraid of other people looking down on us, or their perceptions of us to change, or for them to leave us. So we suppress, and we stifle ourselves. We don't talk about - we try not to think about certain things. It's all about stuffing all of these down, down, down. But it doesn't help, because eventually it's going to blow up, sooner or later. "I'm not good enough." You know, how many times have we said that ourselves? "I am not good enough." Or how many times have we actually felt that, because we've been internalizing it for years and years. Remember in the last episode, we talked about Sheryl Sandberg's "Option B", you know, the book that she published, and one of the chapters was related to self-compassion, and she said that the difference between shame and guilt is the difference between "if I weren't" and "if I hadn't", and if you remember, we said that it's about separating the person from the problem. The problem is not me as a human being, the problem is a specific action, or a specific word, or a specific sin, what have you. This is a problem. "If I weren't" means that you are ashamed, you are directing the problem towards yourself. You are the problem. Versus "If I hadn't" means that you are separating yourself from the problem, you realize that you've done something wrong, and you want to correct it, you want to move on. So how many times have we said to ourselves, "I am not good enough?" How many times have we bashed ourselves,  or seen ourselves in a very negative light that was not helpful? And so, as part of Brené's writings and talks, she says that she studied thousands and thousands of people in terms of their sense of worthiness and their love and belonging. After a lot of analysis and assessment, she says, "If we separate the group of people who have a strong sense of worthiness, a strong sense of love and belonging, versus those who don't, the only difference that you will see is that the first group, who feel that they're worthy, who have a strong sense of love and belonging, believe that they're worthy of love and belonging. That's the only difference." Otherwise, we will always struggle for it. So let's think about this for a bit, and I'm going to ask myself, I'm going to ask you, Adam, I'm going to ask everyone listening to us: "Do you genuinely believe that you are worthy of love, connection and belonging?"  

Aadam:   10:35
Wow!  

Waheed:   10:35
Because if the answer is "no", then we are always going to struggle for it. If we believe that we are worthy of all of these things, then we will be able to develop a strong sense of worthiness, love and belonging. For me personally, if I were to answer that question, maybe two years ago, I would tell you "No, I am not worthy of all of these things. I don't look at myself as someone who is worthy of love, compassion, connection, belonging and all of these things. No, I'm not." Because there's been decades-long of shame, internalized shame, self-hatred, self loathing, low self-esteem, for so many reasons. And then came so many crossroads in my life where I was forced to true certain paths, and I had to try and overcome a lot of adversities, and I learned, I spoke to many people. I just had to shed a lot of shame and guilt, and grow and go through a lot of periods of self reflection. And then I realized that, "Yes, I need to have that. I am worthy of all of these things." And it took some time for me to reach that point, but it was a game changer. An absolute game changer.

Aadam:   12:19
To answer that question for myself. "Do you generally believe you are worthy of love, connection and belonging?" In this moment, I would say "Yes." But if you'd asked me that question, um, I would say maybe two or three years ago, probably it would have been "No", because I was in such a difficult situation in terms of, really, for the first thing, thinking about who I was and trying to figure out how I will move forward, you know, as a Muslim who has SSA. And that was incredibly frightening at the time. I was dealing with anxiety, depression, isolation and shame. I was dealing with so many things. So at the time, definitely not. And for people listening right now who are in that situation, they probably, I'm assuming, they would answer "No." And that's OK though, right? We're not going to pass any judgment on that at the moment, like, there's nothing wrong with that. 

Waheed:   13:25
We were there ourselves, right?

Aadam:   13:29
Exactly. We were there as well, and, you know, it's a journey. And, you know, we keep saying this is, "It's a journey" and it seems like it just sounds like, "It's a journey!" As if we're going on a trip, right? And it's not always the easiest trip, or, you know..

Waheed:   13:43
Yeah. But there's something also important, which means that, you know, once you get to a place of worthiness, will we always feel that way? Of course not. I mean, life is all about ups and downs. It doesn't mean that, you know, everything is going to be very idealistic. No, of course not. We all go through ups and downs. Sometimes we feel worthy of love, connection and belonging. Other days we don't, and that's okay. And that only leads us to realize that, "Okay, there are some things that we need to kind of dissect further, discuss, air out our frustrations, see how we can change things." Like in the last episode, when you were talking about identifying the triggers, you know, for you personally that lead you into, for example, anxiety or depression, and how this changed the equation for you. Again, it's a journey. It's all about growth and personal development.

Aadam:   14:31
And if I think about examples of when I've felt a lack of love, connection and belonging, I can very quickly bring a couple of examples to mind. One of the places that it shows up for me is at work, or when I'm working with people, and in particular when there are some things that I maybe have not done before. And then what happens with me is that, because I've previously believed and thought and had this internal chatter of "lack and lack.. Lack of love, lack of connection, lack of worthiness", it's very easy to slip back into that, when you're presented with a new task, something that maybe seems a little bit uncharted, it's not been done before. Well, at least by maybe yourself individually. So for me, I may start to get a little bit anxious, fearful and then thoughts about, "What if you do this and you fail, and you look like an absolute fool in front of other people?" That can sometimes begin driving me towards shame. And then when I'm in that shame, it just hinders my ability to do the work at the best level possible. And I know that this might be similar for other people. I have to say as well, like some people might be like, "Well, is that not just like normal nerves?" No, it's not normal nerves, because it becomes a pervasive thought that just stays there constantly. I remember being in meetings with senior members of staff, and it literally, that tape playing in my head throughout the meeting. Now, for everybody else looking in from the outside, they wouldn't have been able to tell that there was anything going on, thank God! But it was there nonetheless, right? And then also, I've had an instance where - and this is me getting very vulnerable, so I - 

Waheed:   16:32
Well that's the point.

Aadam:   16:33
Yeah, I want to be that demonstration as well, you know, for people, and it is uncomfortable to talk about these things. But like we said when we start this podcast, "We're going to go there. We're going to go to all of these uncomfortable places."

Waheed:   16:45
Yes, sir! Absolutely.

Aadam:   16:46
So I had a friend.. I became friends with him. He's non-Muslim, and we go on really well. We had a lot of similar interests. He is Catholic, obviously he is still alive, I'm not saying "was" as in he's passed away. We're not in contact anymore, but he's Catholic, and I am Muslim. That was a talking point for us, sharing our different religious backgrounds. And he was quite, he was, I wouldn't say religious but he definitely believed in a god. And obviously I do, so I shared a lot of what I believed in, and why I believed Islam was true. And so we really got on, and we spoke about a lot of things, and that started to develop into an attraction for me. And if I'm being deadly honest, I actually knew that right at the beginning, but I just denied it. Like for me, it was like, "You're feeling this way. It's not that thing, you know. It can be that you're getting on with this person really well, and this might be an opportunity for you to share Islam with another person who's not Muslim." All of these excuses and this kind of thoughts were coming to my head that were really not wanting me to acknowledge what was happening. So anyway, we developed a friendship, and then, as it got more and more intense for me, that began to drive a lot of shame, and a lot of clinginess. I don't think I was clingy, if I'm being honest, but it was very.. Like I felt a type of way, I felt like, we're not seeing each other enough, almost obsessive, and then feeling incredibly embarrassed and ashamed about the whole thing, like, "How has this happened? Why is this happening?" And then going back into a state of denial like, "No, no, no, it's not happening, this isn't what it is." It was a toxic cycle. Eventually what ended up happening, just for the purposes of people listening who might be curious, I ended up making a du'aa to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, because it had got to a point where it was just not sustainable for me to be in that friendship. But I didn't know how to end it. So I made a du'aa, I was like, "Allah, please help me get rid of this situation.How you do it, I don't know, but I need to get out of this. I can't be in this, because it's emotional torture." Lo and behold, after about six months, this friend of mine moves away, and we kinda keep in touch, but we kinda don't. And then after about another six months is the last time I've made contact with him. There was no confrontation. There was no, "I can't be friends with you anymore." It was literally just drifting apart, and, you know, I give all credit to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala for that. There was nothing that I did, honestly, that could have achieved the outcome without it ending in a way that was, you know, not a nice way to end our friendship, basically. But Allah dealt with it.

Waheed:   20:14
All of these feelings that you've talked about, how this relationship caused a generation of so many feelings and emotions, and the shame, obsessiveness or the attractions and all of that - these are quite normal for people like us, for individuals who have same-sex attractions. When you feel a meaningful connection and bond to another individual of the same sex, and these are, you know, huge topics, inshaAllah, that we will be addressing in future episodes when we tackle the psychology of SSA, but just as a heads up for the time being.

Aadam:   20:54
Yeah, you're absolutely right about that. Having said all of that in those examples, "How would you deal with this?" Or "How did I deal with this?" would probably be a good question. And the answer is to give yourself a break, to basically be self loving, to allow yourself to accept love from others, and to accept love from yourself. I began to realize that I was making choices sometimes that weren't in line with that. In particular, with this friend situation, I was definitely realizing that, really going back and analyzing the situation and thinking, "What could have I done differently?" to stop that from happening again. Because it was so difficult emotionally for me. It was torturous, tough and hard. But taking time, stock and a moment to just realize what's been going on, being easy on yourself and having compassion. And like we said in the previous episode, it's treating yourself like you would treat a loved one. If someone came to you with that situation, how would you deal with them? What would you say to them? Would you listen, would you reprimand them? How would you deal with them? How would you speak to them? And I began to do that. I do that when faced with those situations even now. So, for example, in a work situation, I'm learning more and more to try and flip the internal chatter. So instead of thinking, "I'm going to fail, I'm going to fail!" I try and flip that to, "What would happen if I succeeded? What would that look like? What would that feel like? How would I feel once I was, you know, at the place of "success", or at the other side of that situation?" And that's really helped me to break those mental schemas and to realize that I matter, I'm worthy, I'm loved, I belong. And I'm more than my pain, worries and sorrow, and that I have every right to be happy and loved.

Waheed:   23:13
From what you were talking about, the idea that we feel that we are worthy of love, connection and belonging, and that you realize that you are more than your pains, worries and sorrows, this is when courage comes in. When we say, "I have the courage to be imperfect. It is okay. It's okay to not be okay. Let me be kind to myself, and let me be compassionate towards myself." Because otherwise, you cannot practice compassion with other people. Remember, you need to put on your oxygen mask first before you help others, right? Otherwise, you would end up, you know, it's not going to work out. So this allows me to be authentic. Brené says, "They were willing to let go of who they thought they should be, in order to be who they were, which you have to absolutely do that for a connection." And this is another "aha!" moment, right? We have all of these, you know, plans for us, and we have this image of ourselves, that "This is the person I should be... But let me let go of that for a split second, and just be who I am right now, with all of my imperfections, with my strengths and weaknesses. Let me be who I am. Let me acknowledge the person who I am and not overlook that." And that is a necessary component for connection, according to her. So the question that I would like to ask ourselves is, "How many times do the standards that we set for ourselves keep us from living a meaningful life that brings us love, contentment, and stability?" So, to speak on my behalf, I have always set extremely high standards, unfortunately, that are too idealistic, to the point that ended up burning me out, because I was either trying to do so many things at the same time, or fooling myself and saying that, "I can do all of these things, or I can do X, Y and Z" when I wasn't really ready for this, I wasn't prepared, or because I had this image of myself that, "I should be that person who is able to do these things." But I wasn't. And I wasn't willing to acknowledge the fact that I am this person as opposed to that person who I should be. And it was a huge leap to go back to the person that I am, instead of always imagining the person that I should be, if that makes sense. 

Aadam:   26:03
I have a question for you. How have you then reconciled that with striving to improve yourself?

Waheed:   26:13
So, that's a beautiful question. It's all about loving yourself, as we were talking about in the last episode and this episode, it's all about self-compassion. I don't take it to extremes. I try to see where I'm heading, and I try to have a balance. It's all about balance. So, I realize my imperfections, my weaknesses and my strengths. I realize, "I am at this moment in my life doing this, feeling this way, and it's okay to be imperfect. It's okay to let go. It's okay to not be okay." But this doesn't keep me away from improving myself, because, as I said, I would know my strengths and weaknesses, and I would set steps for me to improve aspect A, B or C in my personality or my life. But the steps that I would set for myself would not be too idealistic or too impossible to achieve. And, of course, that's also a work in progress, because I still fall into the trap of, you know, that ideal image of myself that I have in mind which, you know, "That person would be able to do all of these things." But then, "Okay, am I being realistic at the moment? Let me just take a step back and look at this clearly and be honest with myself. Am I being authentic? Am I looking at myself with an eye of compassion, with an eye of self-love and self-compassion? Am I helping myself become a better person? Or am I setting myself up for failure, because I'm not willing to acknowledge the fact that I'm not ready, or the fact that I'm not being true to my individuality or my capabilities, or I'm being too idealistic, or I'm not being very reasonable?" So it's all about a sense of balance. It's all about taking a step back, looking at yourself, seeing where you are at the moment and being compassionate towards yourself. Treating yourself like you would treat someone you love. If I know someone I love, for example, who is very ambitious, who wants to do all of these things, but he really can't, and he's struggling because of that, I would tell them - the very first thing that I would tell them, "Okay, let's let's see, where are you right now? What are you struggling with? Let's take it step by step. Let's take baby steps." This is what I always tell people, "take it step by step." But when I look at myself, I wouldn't say that. I would say, "Take giant leaps!" No, that's not fair. That's not fair. So that took a while to internalize and to change. But it doesn't mean that you wouldn't improve yourself. On the contrary, if you're always stagnant, if you're always okay with accepting, you know, what you're given, and it keeps you away from improving yourself when you know that there's a big chance for improvement, and when you want to take a path and, for example, continue your education, improve your career or improve your relationships and all of that, well, if that's a chance and a possibility, then that's definitely needed. That's definitely something that we should always aim and strive for. But according to our individual cases.

Aadam:   29:40
The reason I asked that question is because I've definitely struggled with setting standards that are absolutely not attainable or realistic. I just wanted to hear how you would deal with that. I've always had a problem of being interested in a lot of different things and wanting to do them all at once.

Waheed:   30:03
Of course, yes, sir!

Aadam:   30:05
Actually, this is going to be quite funny. I don't know how accurate this thing was, but it was like a questionnaire online. I can't remember where I found it, but it was about being perfectionistic, and it was a matter of, basically you answer these questions, and they'll tell you whether you're a perfectionist, and if you are on what what part of the spectrum you sit. And I did this test. I wasn't hoping. I wasn't expecting it to say that I was a perfectionist. Number one, right? So..

Waheed:   30:38
Yeah, we're always in denial of that, obviously!

Aadam:   30:40
And then when I did it, it said I was a perfectionist. And then the second zinger was the fact that I was ultra-perfectionist. And that actually hit me, because I was like, "What? Like, seriously? Is that who I am?" And I don't know how accurate this test or assessment was, I take it with a pinch of salt, but it did give me an insight into how I do things, and I do need to slow down. And that's not even just from that, but it's for my own experiences, that certain standards are just not attainable. You have already a number of commitments in your life, but you're then setting yourself up for failure, and then the cycle of shame and lack of worthiness and all of that. If you're then setting yourself a goal that you can't actually achieve, which is not fair, right? So yeah, that's why I asked that question, because it was just interesting to hear how you balance those two things of striving for, you know, more and improving, vs. having that state of, "I am where I am, and I'm going to have compassion with myself just now."

Waheed:   31:44
Exactly. And for you it seems that it's all about slowing down and taking things slowly as you said, and not trying to do everything all at once. It's not about beating yourself up or spreading yourself too thin. It's about, you know, being mindful and taking things slow, and doing things at your own pace that you realize that that is what makes me functional and balanced, in other words.

Aadam:   32:21
Now I want to move our conversation on to vulnerability, and I want to start with a quote from Dr. Brené Brown, "Vulnerability is not weakness. I define vulnerability as emotional risk, exposure, uncertainty. It fuels our daily lives. And I've come to the belief that vulnerability is our most accurate measurement of courage. To be vulnerable, to let ourselves be seen, and to be honest." And I wanted to start with that quote, because we often get vulnerability very confused, and people think it's synonymous with being weak, right? And so that's why you see Dr. Brené deal with that right off the bat, that vulnerability is not weakness. It's got nothing to do with being weak or strong.

Waheed:   33:17
It's actually the complete opposite.

Aadam:   33:18
Well, okay, so it's got everything to do with being strong, but nothing to do with being weak, right? So, "Vulnerability," she says. "is emotional risk, exposure and uncertainty." And I think that the definition, for me when I first came across this, it was an incredible realization. That I wasn't being vulnerable in my life in so many ways. I was very much hiding behind masks that I've put on to basically stop myself from being hurt. And honestly, at the crux of it, when we boil it down, that was what it was. To stop myself from being hurt or letdown or being disappointed or feeling abandoned by other people, which is a lot of things that I've had happen in my past, as I was growing up throughout childhood and even into adolescence and beyond. And I'm sure that a lot of people listening can relate to that. I can pinpoint events in my childhood that caused me to stop being vulnerable. I remember, if I think about my home life, I can remember being made fun of, but not in a way of, like this elongated episode of "Ha ha ha! You're such a joke!" but more in a way of, you know, maybe doing something that wasn't considered boyish, right? And then being told "Oh, you're being a girl. Stop being like a girl." These kind of comments, small comments that come up that are consistent over a period of time. I remember asking questions sometimes about things that were happening in our home and then being shut down. I remember offering what I would now describe as love to people in my home, so whether it was a brother, sister, mom.. and not being received in the way that I hoped. And that being damaging. And then basically all of these things happening in my life that are sending me messages that "What you have to offer, we don't want. The way you are is not how we need you to be or your want you to be."

Waheed:   35:28
"It's not good enough."

Aadam:   35:29
"It's no good enough." Exactly right? "It's not good enough", which is the thing that fuels shame. This "lack of." The consistent scarcity. The mindset of, "I'm not good enough. I don't look good enough. I'm not thin enough. I'm not muscly enough. I'm not wealthy enough. I don't have enough money, I'm not rich enough. Whatever. I'm not intelligent enough. I'm not smart enough." All of these statements of lack. This is what I was receiving from the people around me. And, you know, it wasn't just at home. It was also even in school and maybe even in the masjid as a child. You know, kids can be very nasty. They will say to you things that are quite hurtful. So I had all of these messages coming from the outside world. As a child, I took them in and complied. "If you're telling me that you don't want to see me like this, then I'm just going to.. That's fine. I'll just, like, rescind within myself."

Waheed:   36:38
And you internalize all of these things, and they become just part of your internal narrative that just keeps on playing 24/7.

Aadam:   36:47
Exactly. And it's so hurtful and heartbreaking that I felt this way and that people feel this way, because it's so damaging. And the consequences that people then have to live with for the rest of their lives. Having these tapes playing in their mind, about how they're not good enough, how they're not enough, define so much of what they then can go on to achieve, if it's not dealt with, if it's not addressed, if we don't shed the light on that toxic mindset. What's really interesting is that this isn't something that just comes from within, it's not like you're just born with this - this comes from outside. This comes from the way that people have, you know, dealt with you, spoken to you, have said, what's happened in your life, in your experience.. So me internalizing that was saying, "I can't be vulnerable with these people anymore. I can't show up as I am", basically. Because I was afraid that they would disconnect. I'd be abandoned. You know, essentially, you wouldn't really have friends, people wouldn't like you, you wouldn't be accepted, because there's certain parts of you that they just don't like. So therefore, "I'm just going to comply and, you know, do as people would want me to do." Whereas now, after having realized all of this, and having worked through a lot of these core beliefs that I used to have, I now believe that if you're somebody who is supposed to be around me, mainly friends or colleagues or whatever it is, if you're somebody that's supposed to be around me, you'll stay around me, even if I show you the worst parts of who I am, right? So I've worked on trying to remove the fear of abandonment and disconnection by saying, "You know, I'm going to show up as I am, and if you're supposed to be here, if you are, you know, willing to rock with this, so to speak, then you will. Even if I show you the worst parts of who I am. And even if you leave, it's okay. I'll be fine. I'll be absolutely fine. Nothing is going to happen." And, you know, now I'm at a place where these are the only kind of people that I want to be around. I'm not interested in putting on a performance for people, putting on a mask, who don't really care, who aren't sincere about being around who I am and seeing me thrive. Unfortunately, there are so many people who are involved in circles of people who are not concerned or have a genuine care for the person. And this has been such a cornerstone of helping me build up my self worth. When you believe you're worthy, when you're okay with being imperfect and as you are, and when you choose to be kind and compassionate towards yourself, you start to embrace your vulnerability. You realize that, "That what makes you vulnerable is the thing that makes you beautiful as well." There is this incredible feeling and sense of self acceptance.

Waheed:   40:05
Absolutely. Everything that you were talking about resonates with me big time. I mean, for a very long period of my life, I was always ashamed, always afraid of speaking my mind, and was always pleasing people, and okay, well, I mean, if there's like a conflict of opinions, or if certain people want to do certain things and I don't want to do them, well just okay, fine, go with the flow because I don't want to give the wrong impression, or I don't want to make people mad at me or want them to think less of me, and it's just "Okay, okay, whatever you guys want, it's fine." Even if that meant doing things that I considered to be, not necessarily wrong, but just - I wasn't, you know, vocal. I didn't give myself a specific level of importance. And again, it's not about arrogance or pride. It's about having the right to state your opinion, or your position, or wants and needs, which are legitimate.

Aadam:   41:03
Because it matters! Yup, it matters, and what you have to say is worth being said.

Waheed:   41:09
Absolutely. But because you don't view yourself as someone who's worthy of all of that - of love, connection and belonging, you feel yourself that you're less than. Then that's just the natural sequence of events. But with time I learned, especially after I started reading Brenés books and started talking to other people, and to you specifically, and we started having these long conversations about being vulnerable and being ourselves and just embracing our imperfections, and working to improve ourselves at our own pace, and being okay with not being okay, etc. It really made a big difference. And I started being vulnerable with others, you know, at the workplace, within my family. Of course not with everyone, because it's a step-by-step thing. But I started being vulnerable with people whom I trust. It's about being exposed in a way, that you feel, "I'm just being myself. I'm just saying what I feel and what I think with regards to specific topic, specific things, and I'm not ashamed of saying them." They're not wrong. Of course, they're not wrong. I'm not saying I'm committing sins or talking about things that shouldn't be spoken about because they're sinful. No, I'm just saying that it's part of normal conversations, I'm just voicing my opinion or doing things that make me comfortable or happy. I am vulnerable. I'm taking the risk to not be ashamed anymore and to be who I am, and that makes a big difference. And so, going back to Brené, she says that those people who take the emotional risks and they're vulnerable, "They don't talk about vulnerability as being something that is comfortable, nor did they talk about it as being something excruciating," so we realize it's not comfortable to do that, of course, it's not, but it's not also excruciating. "They just talked about it as being what?Necessary." It is necessary. And she gives typical examples of vulnerability: "The willingness to say I love you first, or the willingness to do something where there are no guarantees, the willingness to breathe through waiting for the doctor to call after your mammogram." So those stressful moments, being vulnerable during these moments and just breathing and allowing them to be, "They're willing to invest in a relationship that may or may not work. They thought that it was fundamental." These are all examples that she gives, and you can just extrapolate and give as many examples as you can think from your daily life. So, for example, being vulnerable in being the person to apologize for something that you did.

Aadam:   44:07
Yes! Oh, Lord, that is a good one!

Waheed:   44:11
For something that, yes, you did. "I did a mistake. I should apologize for that." That requires a lot of vulnerability. And to be able to forgive also requires a lot of vulnerability. So that's a typical example that we face. Coming out, for me, I'm pretty sure for almost everyone, if not everyone, and I'm not saying that, you know, I'm coming out to the entire community, I'm being proud. No, I'm saying that  to a trustworthy friend, for example. I remember when I first came out to my closest friend, I was just sweating and kind of, you know, I was at a loss for words, and I was trying to beat around the bush. That was a very vulnerable moment, but it made a huge difference for me. And so, yeah, I mean. What do you think about that?

Aadam:   45:07
Yes, I'm just thinking about that as you were talking about it, and recently I've been thinking about actually opening up to a couple more of my friends that I trust, with whom I've developed a good friendship. They're really good brothers, and I want to do it, but it is uncomfortable. And there's a huge risk that they don't take it the right way, or they take in a way that causes them to distance themselves and disconnect, like we've been talking about. I don't think they'll do that though, having, you know, spent enough time with them. But it's something that I'm thinking about at the moment, and I have thought about speaking to my family as well. But that's a little bit too uncomfortable for me right now. So I'm not going to go there. So, yeah, I think starting with friends that I trust would be a good place, because with these people, I mean, these are really good brothers, they are, you know, they're committed to Islam, and they're open minded, they're compassionate and have empathy. They're respectful, and I wouldn't expect a terrible reaction from them. That's something that makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable right now 

Waheed:   46:26
So in other words, it's more like stepping into an arena, as Brené puts it, "You're going into an arena, and you're not afraid of being transparent and to show your true emotions, to be true to yourself and to not wear masks anymore and just deal with whatever life gives you." Just like you were talking a few minutes ago that, you know, you used to wear masks. I did too, because I wanted to show this image of myself, to hide certain aspects of myself I didn't want other people to see. No. Vulnerability means you don't wear these masks anymore, and you just deal with whatever life gives you. And you're just completely transparent, completely honest and you're showing your true emotions. To embrace the unexpected. Life is full of unexpected events. Things just come at us from all conceivable corners of life. We just surf the waves as they come, and we enjoy being ourselves in the process, as they say, to be vulnerable and to be okay with being vulnerable because that's okay. And honestly, that is what leads to growth. And if we truly go back and look at our lives and our life events, the moments where we learned the things that really changed our lives, the things that matter to us most, the milestones that we consider, you know, the major events, the paradigm shifts, the milestones in our lives that really made a huge impact on us, those were probably the moments where we were vulnerable. We were willing to take those emotional risks. We were willing to work even though there were no guarantees. Just be transparent, not wear those masks and just deal with it whichever way it comes. And there's a beautiful quote by Theodore Roosevelt that Brené quotes, he said, "It is not the critic who counts. It is not the man who sits and points out how the doer of deeds could have done things better and how he falls and stumbles. The credit goes to the man in the arena, whose face is marred with dust and blood and sweat. But when he's in the arena, at best, he wins, and at worst he loses. But when he fails, when he loses, he does so daring greatly." And that is a beautiful, beautiful quote, because we don't get to judge or comment on people who are being vulnerable, who are being transparent and who are dealing with life while we are sitting on the outside. They are the ones in the arena. They're the ones in the battlefield. We don't get to judge and say that "Oh, they should have done this better. They could have done this and that." No. If I am not in the arena, I don't get to judge. And that person in the arena, they may win. They may lose, but if they lose or fail, then they have already won because they've already, chosen the path of vulnerability, which is equivalent of the path of courage. So they were courageous doing what they did.

Aadam:   49:45
Right. Exactly. And you know this also goes to the idea of showing up and being seen. so show up and be seen as you are. And doing that itself requires courage, you have to be vulnerable in order to do that. I remember reading this quote when I read one of the books by Dr. Brené Brown - the one that is actually called "Daring Greatly."

Waheed:   50:12
Right, so it refers to this quote, "Daring Greatly."

Aadam:   50:15
Right, yeah. And she start the book with this quote, and I remember reading it and thinking, "Oh my God, this is amazing! This is so good!" Because I just love how in this quote, Theodore Roosevelt talks about going into the arena, even if you're failing, you're doing so in courage, basically. I remember listening to Dr. Brené during an interview, and she was asked about how she deals with criticism, because obviously, nowadays everybody can be a critic, right? You just have to jump online and leave an opinion on a post somewhere. She spoke about that. And this is the quote that she referred back to, and she said that she doesn't pay attention to anybody who isn't actually in the arena with her. So if you're going to comment on her style of writing, for example, then she won't pay any attention to you unless you're also a writer. And that's a whole other topic and a whole other the discussion. But it's just amazing to see how she's taken that and, you know, embodies it. And, inshaAllah, I'm hoping that all of us listening can take something from it as well, and think about the ways in which we can maybe show up a little bit more in our lives and our relationships. How does all of this, that we've spoken about over the last two episodes, how does this relate to Muslims with SSA? I believe, now knowing what I know, that understanding, shame, self-love, connection and worthiness is essential to our healing and growth as Muslims living with SSA.  

Waheed:   52:10
Absolutely. Yes.  

Aadam:   52:11
Right? It's absolutely essential. It's almost like a foundation upon which we build everything else. Because, without that foundation of love, compassion and empathy for ourselves, and telling our stories in truth, and not missing out any detail, we cannot build something on top of a lie. It's not possible. Our Deen teaches us this. This fundamental part. Allah subhanahu wata'ala is the Truth. Full Stop. And, you know, this is, I think, an amazing manifestation of that for Muslims - it's to embody their own truth, to acknowledge it, to work through it, work with it, embrace it, and start from there. And I think that the approach of telling one another, a long list of things that we should and shouldn't do - whilst it's great, and there are obviously within our Deen things that we should and shouldn't do - that kind of approach is only going to take us so far, without dealing with the fundamental issues that keep us in a cycle of shame, self-hatred and loathing, embarrassment, pain, isolation and disconnection. We will not be able to step into the true power of our authentic selves.

Waheed:   53:30
Absolutely. Right. 

Aadam:   53:31
Vulnerability is essential in that. And as I said, Allah is the Truth. So we also have to be courageous enough to step into that truth of our experiences and stop distancing ourselves from them, as if the longer we ignore them, the less likely they're going to impact us. I know that to be true for me, I've done it for a long time. I continue to work on not doing that. Well we're not perfect! So, there's going to be days where we do fall back. Fundamental problems like this will continue to eat away at us if they remain unaddressed. And my hope is that, for everyone listening, that this acts as a reminder that we need to do the work that's necessary to elevate ourselves. The voice inside our heads, "You're not good enough for this. Who do you think are? You're never going to be this or that."

Waheed:   54:27
That never ends.

Aadam:   54:27
Yeah, exactly. That's shame. And we need to start calling it for what it is.

Waheed:   54:28
As you said, you know, we need to understand shame, self-love and connection. We need to internalize all of these concepts that we've been talking about, in order to be able to heal and to grow, especially for Muslims with SSA. Now, if we take the community of people in general, the general population, so many studies have been published that correlate shame with addiction, depression, violence, bullying, suicide, eating disorders, and so many other problems. If you take the sample of people who live with same-sex attractions, you're going to even find higher rates of addiction, behavioral problems, substance abuse, self harm, suicide ideations and attempts. There are studies that have shown that individuals who identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender have higher rates of bullying, abuse, depression, anxiety and myriad of mental health issues. So if we ask the question, "How are our communities responding to all of this?" Unfortunately, a lot of times it's by ostracizing people who suffer from these things and not attending to the core issues. And if you dig deep, if you really dig deep, it's not just about depression on its own. It's not about addiction. It's not about self harm. Those are the tip of the iceberg. You need to dig deep. And when you go deep, it's all about shame, loss of connection and everything that we've been talking about. So these subconscious patterns, as Brené describes them, these patterns of acting out through destructive habits and addiction, "They aim to selectively numb out the negative emotions that we have, like fear, shame, pain and disappointment." So when we when we are triggered, when we find ourselves in a rough spot, we tend to act out in so many different ways, right? We either turn to substances, like drinking or drug abuse. Others are addicted to sex or pornography. Others self harm, Right? Or so many other ways that we try to numb our negative emotions. Others turn to food. We're talking about destructive behaviors in general, right? So it's as if we try to numb all of these negative emotions, but we don't realize that while we're doing that, we're also numbing the positive emotions like joy, gratitude and peace. What we perceive as moments of pleasure are numbing not just the negative emotions but also the positive ones. And so what happens is that we feel miserable, because we have numbed love. We act out even more. And so this becomes a vicious cycle of blame, self hate and shame. And as you recall, shame is the core of all of this. So we're only fueling that even further. And so it becomes a vicious cycle that keeps on feeding itself further and further. And what's interesting is that Brené talks about the difference between men and women, even when it comes to shame. And she says that, "Shame for women is this web of unobtainable, conflicting and competing expectations about who we're supposed to be, and it's a straitjacket. For men, shame is not a bunch of competing, conflicting expectations. Shame is one: do not be perceived as what? Weak." And this is another "aha!" moment, and it hits the right chord. For women, obviously, nowadays there is this list of expectations, right? You know, a woman should be this and that. Otherwise, she's looked at differently. For men, it's about strength. It's about endurance, not to be perceived as weak. So if we take this in general, it rings true to so many people. But if we talk about individuals like us who struggle with SSA, this is even further compounded. Why? Because women already who have same-sex attractions do not meet those expectations, they have to deal with all of these expectations while they struggle with SSA. And so they feel further alienated from members of their own gender, from their family and from men even. Men with SSA, like you and me, we've grown up feeling that we are already perceived as weaker, more timid and less masculine. It just even adds to the cycle of shame. And even sometimes members of the same gender aren't as harsh as those of the opposite gender. So, for example, expectations and judgments by women close to a man with SSA, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of us would identify with that, the expectations that a lot of the women who are close to us in our lives, like mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, all of those people, their expectations can be very damaging to us. And so, you will find that the theme of an overbearing and strict mother or maternal figure is quite a common one, and we will be touching upon this, inshaAllah, in later episodes. So breaking free from all of these shackles is not an easy task. And if you think about it, in our Muslim communities, it's not just the words that hurt the most, but rather it's what is unsaid. You can feel it very heavily in the air around us, through the looks of other people, through the way that they interact with you, the body language, the judgments. I've written about this before, and dare I say it again, that shame in our Muslim communities has become almost like a god that we worship. "What would other people say?" In a lot of our communities, there is fear from what other people say, to the point that it becomes conflicting with what Allah wants from us. Sometimes we choose those things in order not to be perceived as less than. It's all about shame. It's all about not being perceived as X, Y or Z, or about meeting specific expectations. Or, "What will the family say? What will the community say? Oh my God, no, we don't want to lose our status, our pride, our privilege, our what have you.. Our own reputation, etc."

Aadam:   1:1:16
Right. That's steeped in insecurity itself, right? So when you were talking about that, I was thinking about marriage. And for a lot of people that I know, and people that I know in my family who have married outside of our race, how that has been, wow, subhan Allah.. Like, even in the cases where the marriage was taking place between Muslims, so, you know, of different race. It was still such a huge issue, and it was like, "Oh my God, this is the end of the world, this is an atrocity, and this is so terrible." And it's like, well, Allah has permitted this. He encourages this, in fact. And you know, what is the problem? I mean, this is just one example of how this happens within the Muslim community. But, you know, with people with SSA, homosexuality or, you know, transgenderism or whatever it might be, like, it's just even more.

Waheed:   1:2:22
Of course, of course. Yeah. We have to hide it in the family, because, "Oh, my God, if the word gets out, that one of our own is gay or is struggling with their gender identity, then oh, my God, all hell will break loose."

Aadam:   1:2:37
Yeah. I want to share something, actually, on that. So I have someone in my extended family - we're not that close to this particular family, but one of their children in this extended family, I believe is having some conflict with her gender identity, because I've seen other family relatives share images with me of this particular girl dressed up like a man, quite literally like a man. And the family in question that we're talking about it doesn't really talk about this person of their family at all, ever. Never. It's such an under-the-rug thing. And that's my point, is that it's such an under-the-rug thing. I can imagine how much shame they're feeling because of that, and because of the shame they're feeling has probably resulted in them - unfortunately, I have to say this - inflicting a great deal of emotional harm on that girl.

Waheed:   1:3:51
Of course. Yeah.

Aadam:   1:3:52
And I think this brings us into this next part - very rarely has anyone ever said anything to us along the lines of, "You know what? You're imperfect, and you're wired for struggle, but you are worthy of love and belonging."  

Waheed:   1:4:11
Absolutely.  

Aadam:   1:4:12
And I wonder whether we've ever said that to ourselves. Like have we ever given ourselves the permission for a minute just to be like, "You know what? I am imperfect, I am struggling, but I still am worthy of love and belonging."

Waheed:   1:4:27
I remember a very good friend of mine, when he first heard that sentence, he cried. He actually cried, he told me, "I teared up reading that: you are imperfect, you're wired for struggle, but you are worthy of love and belonging." You can just see how many of us are struggling with feeling that we are worthy. And that is very, very unfortunate.

Aadam:   1:4:48
It's so unfortunate. It breaks my heart. It really does.

Waheed:   1:4:50
Yes. Yes, it does.

Aadam:   1:4:52
And, you know what? I want to take the opportunity on this platform to say that, if anyone listening has never had someone else say that to them, or even if they've never said it to themselves, then I want to be the first one to say that to you. Both, Waheed and I, want to say that your experiences are valid, you have lived a difficult life carrying the weight of shame, hopelessness, fear, isolation, loneliness and disconnection. And it has caused you so much pain and hurt. And it's probably cost you in friendships, in your career, your hobbies, and the ability to just feel joy and happiness, even for a moment. And that's what it was meant to do. But not acknowledging that, or not having someone validate that for you is like dumping all of it on top of your game. So double Xing, triple Xing it or four X. It just adds to it. And I just want to be that first person to say, "No, what has happened has happened. It is a real experience." And I'm here to say that I acknowledge it. But I also want to tell you that you are worthy of love and belonging. And Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala loves you. He would not have created you if you were not worth it. You wouldn't be here otherwise. He has guided you to be here with us, with Waheed and I. And my hope is that you find comfort and solace in the words that we've spoken over the past two episodes, inshaAllah. And I make du'aa that Allah allows us to do that and gives us His permission and guidance to do that. In this episode we've spoken about a lot and in the last episode, and I really hope that it's a start of a new chapter for a lot of people in their lives. For anyone listening who's going to be hearing this for the first time, or it's a reminder, that it really touches you in a way that it gives you hope that things can be better than what they are. And it will take time and take baby steps. But inshaAllah, we all can and will get through the shame that we felt into a place of love and belonging,.

Waheed:   1:7:06
InshaAllah. Amen.

Aadam:   1:7:06
And just to wrap up our discussion on shame, there's this beautiful quote from Dr. Brené on shame, and I'm just going to run through it, "Shame is an epidemic in our culture, and to get out from underneath it, to find our way back to each other, we have to understand how it affects us and how it effects the way we're parenting, the way we're working and the way we're looking at each other." And we'd like to wrap up this episode by summarizing and giving you some takeaways from all of what we've spoken about between this episode and the episode before. We're all hurting and we're all trying to find our way through life, and there's a long way ahead for our communities and a lot of what needs to be done. But things will never change until we make the difference ourselves. Starting with ourselves.

Waheed:   1:8:00
Absolutely. So, it's okay to be in pain. "I'm in pain. I'm lost. I failed miserably. I messed up." Whatever it is the situation that is going on with you, it is okay. You are still alive. And you matter. Treat yourself like you would treat a person you love. This is a very, very important statement that has been life changing, for me personally, and for so many other people. If you find it helpful to write it down and to remind yourself of it every day, don't hesitate to do that. Treat yourself like you would treat a person you love.

Aadam:   1:8:42
Allow yourself to feel worthy because you are. And as I said before, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala would not have created you if there wasn't a purpose for you, a path for you, or something that He put you here to do. So allow yourself to feel worthy, because that worth comes from the Highest of Places.

Waheed:   1:9:05
Absolutely. And allow yourself to accept the love from those around you.

Aadam:   1:9:11
Be okay with not being okay.

Waheed:   1:9:14
Be okay with being imperfect and doing imperfect things.

Aadam:   1:9:19
Recognize the difference between shame and guilt. It's not you that's wrong. It's something that was done. Let's work on correcting that and making amends.

Waheed:   1:9:29
Be kind and compassionate towards yourself, like you would be towards someone you love and care about.

Aadam:   1:9:36
Try and take off those masks that you've put on for quite some time now, and reveal your true colors. Start with people you can trust and feel safe around. Be transparent. Show your wounds and scars. It's okay to be afraid.

Waheed:   1:9:51
Give yourself the liberty to feel all those emotions without judging them and without judging you as well.

Aadam:   1:9:59
And don't inflict the same pain on yourself that they did on you - the people in your life, the outside world. Lift yourself up and allow yourself to heal.

Waheed:   1:10:09
Own who you are. You are far more than your past, your scars, your pains, your mistakes. You are more beautiful, more radiant and more worthy. Accept yourself and embrace yourself.

Aadam:   1:10:24
And if any negative emotions appear, label them. "I feel so and so, I am experiencing this and that." It's easier to start dealing with them that way. And it helps tremendously to write about your thoughts and emotions, through regular journaling or something similar.

Waheed:   1:10:41
Absolutely. And we would like to remind you that you are loved. You are important. You are under His Eye, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala's Eye. Drop that whip that you've been holding for so long. Look at yourself in the mirror and accept that reflection. Embrace it and smile at it. No more shame. No more pity. Only love, pure and unconditional love, inshaAllah. And that's how we begin to heal.

Aadam:   1:11:11
And some concluding thoughts from Dr. Brené on this topic. "If you put shame in a Petri dish, it needs three things to grow exponentially: secrecy, silence and judgment. If you put the same amount in a Petri dish and douse it with empathy, it can't survive. The two most powerful words when we're in struggle: me too."

Waheed:   1:11:37
I can't remember how many times when I was going through a rough period, and I chose to tell someone, and they said, "Me too", how that really, kind of, lifted my spirits. I wouldn't say it solved the problem completely, obviously. But to feel that there is a sense of connection with someone who's feeling the same things, too, particularly in, you know, the community of Muslims who struggle with same-sex attractions, it makes a big, big difference, subhan Allah. 

Aadam:   1:12:03
Exactly. I know of instances in my life where I've been vulnerable and courageous enough to share something that's been bothering me, that was bringing me a great deal of shame, and then hearing the other person say, "This is how I feel as well, or this is exactly what's been going on with me." That's just so freeing and liberating, to know that you're not alone. And if it's just for that one thing alone, then that's huge, because that loneliness can be very debilitating.

Waheed:   1:12:40
Absolutely. And to feel that you're not alone, we're all in the same boat, it makes a big, big difference, subhan Allah. So we've come to the end of today's episode, and as usual, we would like to end our episode with a quote. And again, it's going to be from Brené Brown, and she said, "If we're going to find our way back to each other, vulnerability is going to be that path. And I know it's seductive to stand outside the arena, because I think I did it my whole life, and think to myself, "I'm going to go in there and kick some ass when I'm bulletproof and when I'm perfect", and that is seductive. But the truth is, that never happens. And even if you got as perfect as you could and as bulletproof as you could possibly muster when you got in there, that's not what we want to see. We want you to go in, we want to be with you and across from you, and we just want, for ourselves and the people we care about and the people we work with, to dare greatly." Thank you so much for listening to our episode, and I would like to sincerely thank my co-host, Aadam. Aadam, you were awesome in last week's episode and in this week's episode. Thank you so much for being so vulnerable and sharing so much with me and our audience.

Aadam:   1:14:06
Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. Thank you for the opportunity to just share my own thoughts. So much of it was spontaneous, in-the-moment type of sharing. So I'm glad that I was able to kind of share those things, and hopefully with the aim that it helps all of the listeners who are listening to this episode, and who will, inshaAllah, listen to this episode in the future,

Waheed:   1:14:28
InshaAllah, it will. I am very optimistic about this, and I am confident that it will, jazak Allah khairan. I would like to say that Aadam will be joining me, inshaAllah, in next week's episode as a co-host again. But next week's episode is going to be a Q and A session. So Aadam and I will be answering a lot of your questions that you would send us by email. So please do send us any questions or comments, if you would like to share any personal stories, anything that you would like us to discuss, it's going to be a Q and A session that is basically from you and dedicated to you.

Aadam:   1:15:04
And just to add to what Waheed has said. Really, if you do have any questions about anything that we've covered, then please send it to us. Just make the most of the opportunity to ask many questions, because there might be a question that you have that someone else also has, but maybe they're not asking the questions. Please send it through. We'll be more than happy to answer the questions, and, inshaAllah, as long as it takes, we will go through as many questions as we possibly can and answer them on the show.

Waheed:   1:15:34
InshaAllah we will. And with that we have come to the end of our episode for today, and this concludes the two episode series on shame, guilt, vulnerability and courage. We hope that you have enjoyed our episode and benefited from it, inshaAllah. And as we said, Aadam will be joining me again, inshaAllah, next Friday for our Q and a session, where we will be addressing the messages and the emails that we get, inshaAllah. As always, if you have any questions, comments or suggestions, please feel free to email us at: awaybeyondtherainbow@gmail.com. And as a reminder, we are available on Google Podcast, Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, Spotify, iHeart Radio and TuneIn Radio. Please follow us, spread the word and subscribe to your favorite podcast apps so you can listen to us on the run, inshaAllah, and anywhere. You have been listening to "A Way Beyond the Rainbow" with Waheed Jensen and friends. Until next week, assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi wabarakatuh.