Waheed:   0:00
This is Waheed Jensen, and you are listening to "A Way Beyond the Rainbow." Assalamu alaikom wa rahmatu Allah ta'ala wa barakatuh, and welcome to our fourth episode of, "A Way Beyond the Rainbow", this podcast series dedicated to Muslims struggling with same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and Islam. Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode. My co-host, Adam, and I have been assembling a lot of the questions that you have been sending us and a lot of the comments that we have received, through email and social media. And today, as we mentioned in last week's episode, is going to be a Q and A session. We are going to read some of your questions and comments and answer them together, inshaAllah. Joining me today is my dear friend Aadam, once again, Assalamu alaikom, Aadam!

Aadam:   1:21
Wa alaikom assalam! How are you this week?

Waheed:   1:24
Alhamdulillah, I'm very well. How have you been doing this week?

Aadam:   1:44
I've been good, alhamdulillah. I've been well, been busy with work. There has been a couple of changes in my life, in terms of work and career. So it's all good, alhamdulillah. But it just been a period of adjustment and, you know, all that type of stuff. So but yeah, for the most part, alhamdulillah really good.

Waheed:   2:04
Alhamdulillah. Congratulations, and may Allah give you a lot of tawfeeq, inshaAllah, in all that you do. So basically, this episode, again, as we said, it's going to be a Q and A session. We have assembled all of these comments and questions through email and messages, and there are a lot of comments that have been written on social media, through discussion threads and Internet forums, and we also assembled those. I would just like to also say one extra thing, you may or may not have heard this, but there has been an event that took place last Saturday evening, called "LGBTQ+ Balancing Our Faith with Civil Rights", and it took place in the East Plano Islamic Center, also known as EPIC, which is in Plano, Texas, USA. It took place on February 15th, and it involved Sh. Yasir Qadhi, Imam Omar Sulaiman, Br. Mobeen Vaid, Dr. Asma Tasnim Uddin from the US as well as myself. And the event was advertised weeks ago on social media and on online forums. There has been quite a spectrum of reactions, let me put it this way. So a lot of people were, you know, supportive of this event, because, you know, different speakers had different themes that they wanted to discuss. So, for example, Sh. Yasir Qadhi talked about the moral, theological and the historical considerations when it comes to this matter. Imam Omar talked about alliances and coalition building. Mobeen talked about how political engagement is a slippery slope, and he discussed the concept of gay identity and what that entails. Dr. Asma, who's a lawyer, talked about civil rights and the law. And I was basically the person coming from the inside, so I was the insider voice in this event. And so there has been a lot of backlash - I went online and saw a lot of backlash, a lot of negative commentary and a lot of people making the worst assumptions when they read that Waheed Jensen is kind of an insider voice, and he's going to provide the "human component." So people looked up "Waheed Jensen", and they found the earliest publication of mine, when I used to use the term "gay" or "homosexual", and they made the assumption that I am just going there, and I am going to convince everyone to just blend in with the LGBT movement and accept LGBT Muslims. I heard that Imam Omar and Sh. Yasir have received a lot of hate and a lot of backlash because of this, and they were on the verge of being forced to cancel this event. But, alhamdulillah, it wasn't canceled and, alhamdulillah Rab Al-'Alameen, it was a huge, huge success. It was a really great event. There was a turnout of around 1000 people, they went there physically, from so many different states, not just from Texas. It wasn't live-streamed because of, you know, the negative publicity. But inshaAllah, some segments will be published soon, and once they publishe my part, I will, inshallah, add a link to it in the podcast so that anyone interested would listen to that. And there was also a Q and A session at the end where all of us were able to answer, you know, the questions from the audience. Alhamdulilah,  it was an event with a lot of barakah and a lot of tawfiq from Allah SWT. Alhamdulilah, even Sh. Yasir at the end said, like, imagine if we had cancelled this event because of all of the backlash that we had received, imagine what we would have lost, as a result. Ironically, I went on some pages on Facebook that identify as, you know, ultra feminist, pro-LGBT, Muslim progressives, and they were also shaming me for someone who's not embracing or accepting his sexuality and someone who has internalized homophobia, and whatever. So you can see that there's a lot of fear, a lot of assumptions, a lot of misconceptions and so many preconceived notions and judgements on both sides.

Aadam:   6:28
You know what, as we go through this episode, the listeners will see that in the questions that have been asked, by some people, the sort of misunderstandings, the fear, the not-knowing and then making up an idea of what they think and believe to be true. So, inshaAllah, we'll do our utmost to address those things. But before we do that, before we get into the questions, I just want to say on behalf of all people who have SSA, I wanted to say thank you so much to Waheed on this platform for the fact that you went, not physically went, but you spoke at this event. You shared our voice, so to speak, you were our voice there and it takes guts and courage to do that. And it's not easy. And I know that these comments have been quite, they can be quite, you know, nasty, and and they can take an effect. But you know, we know what we're doing. We know why we're doing this. We are calling to the way of Allah SWT, and we want to help Muslims like us navigate their way through this issue. Thank you so much for being at that event and speaking on our behalf. And I'm sure when the recordings come out and we hear what you've said, it's going to be on point. The fact is that we had really big and high profile scholars - well in the West, at this event, advocating for the event and backing the event. I think it's a milestone moment for our community, and something that was so long overdue. And I just hope that it starts the discussion at a deeper level so we can get beyond the misconceptions, we can get beyond the fear and all of that, we can start getting into the real stuff, which is, how do we help people who have SSA live a life that's fulfilling, that's true to Allah SWT, one in which they are pleased and also their Lord is pleased with them, one in which they're fulfilled and they're living, you know, there "best life", so to speak. So, yes, thank you so much.

Waheed:   8:46
No need to thank me. I mean, the the honor is all mine. Honestly, I'm very grateful and honored to have been part of this event, and as you said, it's a milestone and it's a monumental event in terms of bringing an insider voice and actually paving the way forward in a way that is God-conscious, because we know that that is very difficult. That is a very difficult topic, very sensitive, kind of forbidden territory nowadays, right. SubhanAllah, I was brought to tears at so many points during this event. Alhamdulilah, when it came to an end, I felt like an overwhelming sense of happiness, tranquility, and also gratitude and humility. And I profusely thanked Allah SWT for allowing me to speak on behalf of thousands and thousands of Muslims who struggle with same-sex attractions, because I know that the struggle is not easy, and we are misunderstood from every conceivable angle. So this is the least that I could do. And I hope that I did the cause justice inshaAllah, and inshaAllah this event will pave the way for more events to come in the future, where we tackle this issue from a righteous and a God-conscious perspective inshaAllah. So just as a reminder, given everything that we have spoken about so far, one verse that popped into my head whenever I read all of these comments, and I saw the level of fear and anger that a lot of Muslims particularly exhibited was, this ayah from Surat An-Nahl, verse 125 when Allah SWT says, "Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction and argue with them in a way that is best". So when we disagree with people, or when we feel that we are brought into a discussion that we don't want to have, or one that is filled with a lot of misconceptions and a lot of negative energy and a lot of anger and a lot of hatred, the answer is not hatred, and the answer is not to fuel it with more negativity like anger and hatred and misjudgment. No, Allah says, "invite to the way of your Lord", with what? "With wisdom and good instruction." And when we argue with people, we give arguments in a way that is best, we argue in a way that is best. So let's always try as much as we can to keep this in mind, because this is an order from Allah SWT, and this is the least we could do, because this is the Islamic way, inshaAllah. All right, so, bismillah hir rahman ar-rahim. Let's start with the questions that we have received. Okay, one question that we have received goes as follows. "Could you please explain why you didn't say that SSA or same sex attractions aren't a choice for some people, but it clearly is and has to be for others. Also, and more importantly, why did you, in absolute terms, reject the idea that SSA can be a spiritually disease?" So this is in reference to Episode one, the very first episode when I was saying that same sex attractions are not a choice, it's never a choice. And when I said, you know, some people say it's a spiritually ailment, and I kind of said that it's actually not. So regarding the first part of the question, which is on SSA being a choice. I was referring to people like us, like you and me and the thousands and thousands of Muslims have struggled with this from early childhood or prepubescent years, or even around puberty. Sometimes we realised that we had these attractions and we did nothing to bring them on right? Technically, we're talking about the attractions and not the encounters or acting out. That's the difference. So any behaviors, as in, for example, the mannerisms that we can control or any actions as in the sexual relations, all of these are within our control, and we will be held accountable for them, right? But any desires or attractions or inclinations that we have, that's different, right? They're not. I mean, they're not within our control. So every for people with SSA who have found themselves with such attraction from the get go, it's certainly not a choice. This is what we are saying. So there are, of course, some people who don't have these attractions from the beginning. And due to as many reasons, like experimentation or sexual openness or whatever. They choose that path. They themselves choose to go down that path of again behaviour and sexually acting out. And of course, that exists. And that's clearly a choice. But we are not referring to those people. We are referring to people like you and me, Adam and and the hundreds and thousands of Muslims who find themselves in our shoes.

Aadam:   13:51
And like we spoke about in the previous episodes, I shared about my story. And I knew from a very young age that I felt a attracted to the same sex. So you know that. And I'm talking about, like, four or five years old, and I was really young. So to say that to me would actually be a little bit like basically saying that as a child at four or five, I was responsible for making that choice, and, you know, whatever consequence that it has. You know what? I don't know what the person was getting at with the question, but anyway, the point is is that it wasn't a choice. It was something that I discovered. I learned about myself. It was there and then had to deal with it as I've grown up. So it's definitely nor a choice. And the thing is, we said this in the previous episodes as well that you know, if there ever was a choice, we wouldn't really be having these discussions because we could deal with it so easily and so quickly. So we wouldn't need a podcast. We wouldn't need to have a coherent discussion and discourse on about this topic. We wouldn't be dealing with people who have mental health issues as a result of this, there wouldn't be an LGBT movement. And you know, these things just wouldn't exist if it was a choice. But the point is, it's not.So, yeah, that's all I have to say on that.

Waheed:   15:20
Yeah, I completely agree. And when it comes to the second part of the question, which is why did we, in absolute terms, reject the idea that SSA, can be a spiritual disease again when I refer to it as a spiritual ailment. The concept that you know when a lot of Muslims approach you until you should go back to Allah SWT, read more Quran and pray the gay away, as they say, and you are falling short in the eyes of Allah SWT, your spiritual acts are not good enough. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And this inadvertently becomes part of our internal narrative that we keep playing 24/7 in our minds, even without anyone else saying that to us. Um, saying that to someone who has been doing a whole lot of spirituals acts and crying their eyes out and their heart out on the prayer rug doing tahajjud for years. I know so many people who do that on a nightly basis. They pray tahajjud. They read Quran on a daily basis. They fast as much as they can. They pray the sunnahs and the nawafil, and they are spiritually subhanAllah. I mean mashaAllah, but things don't change for them, Right? Okay, so this is what I said in terms of people abusing the concept of spiritual disease. That's what we're trying to say. You know, such such narrative makes things worse because the same people who say this are just making accusations and they don't know anything about the person is going through or what you know sometimes what the root causes of same sex attractions with that particular person you are in reality. So just like saying, for example, depression and mental illness are spiritual ailments. Read more Quran, pray go to the masjid, whatever, and you'll be better. So, yeah, I mean that that's what I'm trying to say.

Aadam:   17:07
Yeah, I can relate to that in my own experience because I used to do the same things in terms of thinking and believing that, you know, if I just prayed hard enough if made, you know, extra duaa. If I did tasbih if I did all of the extra things that a Muslim can possibly do, which you've mentioned fasting , tahajjud all these things. If I did all of these things, then you know eventually those inclinations, would just disappear. And that didn't work from at all and in fact, actually made things worse because I then start to think and believe that either there's something wrong with me or there's something wrong with what I'm doing, that this is not having the effect that I believe it is supposed to have, which then can leave you in a place where you are choosing between whether you continue being Muslim or you then try and seek out a remedy via another path and you know alhamdulilah  I didn't go down the other path, but holding on to Islam was difficult. Like honestly, in my experience, like having going through the realisation, the acknowledgement, the understanding of, the fact that I have SSA etc, that experience up until that is been very difficult and for people listening it's likely the same. Like there may be days where you feel like you're literally holding on to Islam by the bare, you're, literally your teeth. That's, that's the only thing that's holding you down. So when people say that you know your spiritual practice is somehow inadequate or the quality of it is not there. And therefore that's why you still feel the way that you do is a terrible mistake. Like it can have really bad consequences. And so I just wanted to share that, because I'm sure that there are people listening who are going through it and there is this painful it's hard.

Waheed:   19:03
Indeed, the may Allah make things better and easier in sha Allah. Moving on to the next question. This is a quote from someone, "His orientation and by his is referring to me. His orientation seems to be towards making Muslims more accepting of male homosexuals" end quote, "in the West is there anyone who still doesn't know this? Doesn't this amount to special pleading?" So okay to clarify things. No, that's not my orientation. I'm not here to make anyone more accepting of Muslim homosexuals as in a homosexual behaviour. The example that I gave in episode one with regards to, um you know, the parents of someone finding out about him and then being surprised that Muslims who have same sex attractions exist, who struggle for the sake of Allah SWT and who try to abide by Islam and the word of Allah. And they were shocked to hear that, right? Yes, that's a real - that's a true story. And that's from a brother from Asia. Now, yes, I realise that a lot of Western - in a lot of Western countries, you know, this this you know, we're bombarded with with the media 24/7 and it's highly highly unlikely that anyone doesn't know this, but believe it or not, you know, in other places, people are shocked to hear this, whether it's because of denial or because, you know, lack of awareness. I don't know what it is, but that is that is the reality of it. And does this amount of special pleading? No, it doesn't. It doesn't amount to any special pleading of any kind, because I'm not asking people to accept us as an identity category, but rather to accept the fact that such a struggle exists to begin with and that many, Muslims struggle with this. And it's a legitimate struggle in this life and to actually educate people about this. This is what we are all trying to do. That's what this podcast is about.

Aadam:   21:14
And I just want to go back to the point that you were making about the brother and his story and even being from Asia and how that like this, it's particularly where we are in countries where they are more conservative it's maybe more likely that they don't understand these things. But I would argue that this is not necessarily it doesn't mean that the West is immune from this because, um I mean, I know of people Muslims who live in the West and I know what their views are of this topic. And I know how the understand and think about this. So it's not exclusive to, you know, the west "We already know this and we don't need to be told again. And it's more than just like when we talk about it being more accepting there's an entire holistic thing. We're not asking for special treatment, number one. Or special pleading SSA is not a fundamental part of our identity. The reason why we've done this podcast and all the different initiatives because we identify as being Muslim first and foremost, who are having this experience, and we're trying to educate the community on this topic. Tell them that we exist. Ah, what our specific struggles are address, the misconceptions, the judgements, the preconceived notions that are causing harm in the community and then also offering our own, you know, advice for people about what helps based on our research based on our experience, based on all of the conversations, discussions that we have. So this is yeah, this is how I would address this with the person, whoever it was that asked this question. So I hope that answers it.

Waheed:   23:00
All right, Um, let's move to the third question that we have, which is and their quoting me again. "It's not about just desires, but something much deeper" end quote. "This is very close to the language and paradigm adopted by gay activists. Ah, there is a need to uncover the lie that homosexuality is more than just sexual behaviour and a particular type of desire." This is not a question, but rather a statement from someone online. So okay, so let me just say this when I said It's not just about desires, but something much deeper. Yes, it is much deeper. And the second quote, which is to uncover the lie that homosexuality is more than just sexual behaviour and a particular type of desire. That's not a lie.

Aadam:   23:51
This is what we mean guys about this misunderstanding and this fear and the preconceived notions and all of that. This is what we mean by these questions like is really kind of throwing this up and and shedding light on this and there's a part of me. I'm being honest. Like it's difficult to read these questions and then respond to them.

Waheed:   24:08
Yeah, but But we have to do this right. 

Aadam:   24:11
We have to do it. We have to do it. We have to maybe show another way of, dealing with these types of difficult topics. So you know, Waheed I'm gonna let you just, you know, respond to this, and then I'll chip in.

Waheed:   24:23
Very diplomatically. Yes, mhmm. So, yeah. I mean, the idea is oK if we want to understand this, and I know that a lot of people maybe don't know this, but there are deep seated emotional needs as well as matters that are relevant to belonging, to attachment, to shame, to healing, to a sense of personal worth amongst so so many other matters. And these are very deep topics. Again, I won't be able to answer this particular question in full and to give it its full right in this episode because these are huge topics and we will, inshallah, get to them from episode seven until episode 12, there is a huge series that talks about the psychology of same sex attractions and the possible root causes and how all of these, you know, themes are intertwined and interrelated. SSA , the attractions per se, the desires, inclinations that these are only the tip of the iceberg. Now, I can understand if this if this statement or this question is coming from someone who does not have any, you know, same sex attractions whatsoever, and they're just making assumptions. But some people who themselves have same sex attractions are also saying that, you know, we need to uncover this lie that homosexuality is more than just sexual behaviour. Uh oh, or you know, it's not just about desires, but something much deeper. It is much deeper than this, even when we say all of these facets the you know that deep seated emotional needs and the belonging and attachment and shame and all of these deep concept again, this is not meant to crystallise them into a an identity of sorts. But it's meant to show that there are deeper issues that individuals with same sex attractions struggled with. All right again, we will discuss this in so much detail down the line, but let's just keep this in mind for now in sha Allah.

Aadam:   26:27
Yeah, and I think it's also easier just to believe that it is just, you know, it's just about the sex. It's just it's just a sexual aspect. For people who obviously aren't - don't experience it, it's easier for them to believe that about it. Maybe because it's convenient to their world view, there experience, et cetera, and it also kind of absolves people off the responsibility to address it. Right, you know, so as a community, it's almost like a cop out. You know, we don't generally have a good track record when it comes to dealing with issues of this type of whether it's SSA, or whether there is some other issue within the community that we need to deal with, you know we have. We have a pattern within the community to be just ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore until, it becomes a goes to boiling point and you know we are where we are. And so it's, you know, there is easy to do that. I would say the emotional needs. I don't again - Waheed, you said this is going to be discussed in later episodes, which I'm looking forward to. I'm looking forward to being educated and I'm sure the audience are as well. But what I would just say on this is that in my reading, in my experience, I know that it is not just about the sexual attraction there are so, there are fundamental emotional needs - as you've said that need to be addressed. There is a whole bunch of different issues and layers to this. You know, I hope that whoever's asked this question, I hope they're turning in, hope they are listening and in sha Allah when those episodes do and, you know, come out, we can help them understand that. And hopefully you know if I'm addressing the people who have SSA here, if you are in a place where you just you're you're struggling, you kind of don't understand what's going on with you, and you've struggled for years and you can't find answers are satisfying. That give you some sense of hope. What I will say is that when you start to learn about these deeper topics and issues, that will like - it will show you, this entire other dimension to SSA that you just did not know existed. And the LGBT+ lobby do everything they possibly can to squash that, that voice and really just say well, you know, we are as we are, and we're going to do what we're going to do. And if you feel this way, then it's fine. Just embrace it. But there's so much more to it. So, yeah, that's all I want to stay. But, you know, I'm I'm looking forward to the future episodes on this topic because I know I've got a lot to learn on it as well as I'm sure, the listeners.

Waheed:   29:01
And it's actually a journey, and it's a learning experience. And it's not an easy thing to actually unravel all of these issues and try to dissect them and to learn where they emerged from and how to handle them. It's a lifelong process, but anyway, it's a long discussion. We'll have that later in sha Allah.

Aadam:   29:24
So I think the next question is to do with the conference, the one that you attended Waheed. So it's for you again. So the question is, "why do we need to have special understanding for individuals with SSA.." And then, "And when we don't do this with other things people struggle with. Are there real differences here? Or does our granting specific attention to this issue simply play into the larger discourse by marking SSA off as something special on Muslims with SSA as needing support and empathy in a special way not being requested for other groups or people?"

Waheed:   30:01
Okay, so this is with regards to, you know, having a conference or an insider voice calling in. And why do we need to have that kind of special understanding with people struggle with SSA, as opposed to other struggles out there. Now, what I always say is that having an insider voice is crucial and it's only fair. We cannot expected to discuss a specific topic about an individual or a group of people without involving those people in the narrative, right? That's the least we could do so, and we can't expect a proper discussion on this topic by people who don't deal with this issue and only imagine how it could feel like when you have individuals who deal with this 24/7 and who are on the same mission as you, which is to abide by the teachings of Allah SWT and the teachings of Islam. Right? So that's only fair. And and there's no problem with that. On the contrary, it actually, ads depth to it and it actually makes it, actually does justice to the topic itself. Now, why should we grant it specific attention? There are other issues out there in our community. Yes, of course, it is a struggle, just as there are so many other struggles out there. But this particular struggle of same sex attractions happens to have a unique set of characteristics that makes it worthy of attention and proper studying. There are, you know, I can name a couple. There are issues with identity first and foremost, and this is a whole discussion on its own. And in sha Allah we would get to that in the next episode. In Episode five. The topic itself of SSA is met with a lot of disgust and shame and anger just by bringing up the attractions part of it and not the actions. If someone who's struggling with SSA brings up this topic of attractions and not just actions when they try and seek help, this is what they face shame and anger and negativity. So people don't know what to do, where to go. So and in addition to that, there's no centralised Islamic approach to helping individuals deal with this righteously. All we know is you're not blamed for your attractions or inclinations. You're only blameworthy when you act upon them. Okay, so how do I move forward? How do I deal with this? We don't know. Right? Um And so in addition to all of this, there is now a global movement that is normalising this identity in the behaviour which are clearly against Islam. And this movement's messages are very captivating for individuals struggling who have only been met with animosity and hatred from their own communities for things that they didn't choose to begin with, or things that they didn't even do. And these are just a few points among so many others out there.

Aadam:   32:42
Yeah, absolutely. I co sign on everything., you just said. What I would say, there's something this person said, which was you know, well, why are we giving this group of people any special attention as other people who are going through struggles etc etc. I would say right, I know of examples within my community where we do give other groups special attention. So I know one where Muslim parents who have lost children, children have passed away. There's an organisation set up for to help them go through and deal with the grieving process. I also know of an organisation which is set up for the purpose of, helping families and couples resolve disputes and familial & marital breakdown. So, you know, we do do this and you know you might just not be aware of it, but we absolutely do in every situation has its uniqueness and has nuance. And it's only fair that we address the nuance because we risk actually doing more harm, if we don't. I absolutely acknowledge that there's overlap between you know, people who are going through struggles, there undoubtedly will be. Like you go through SSA, I've experienced depression, anxiety. People who have perhaps lost the child may also experience depression, you know, just thinking about how that might be for someone. Obviously, I can't imagine that, but it's, you know, just logically thinking that there would be overlap but it doesn't take away from each of those situations, and this is how we should be dealing with it. Like we do this. And so we've seen Muslims do this. We also see this is just within the wider society. You see, people you see within psychology and psychiatry specialisms. Not every mental health care professional is equipped to do with every single mental health issue. Just like GP'S are not equipped to diagnose every type of illness we have specialisms for that sort of stuff. Yeah, I just wanted to point that out because it's it's only fair that we give ah ah, you know we're fair in our understanding of how you know we as a community addresses this, but also just as human beings address issues that we face that are, you know, shared amongst all of us. Yeah, I hope that answers the person's question.

Waheed:   35:09
Moving on to the next question, how about you take this one, Adam, "What does it mean to ask the community specifically to be more open towords or welcoming of Muslims with same sex attractions?"

Aadam:   35:21
Okay, so, um, I can answer this from my own perspective, right? So as a Muslim who has SSA, what would I - what would I like to expect from other Muslims that if I was to confide in about my experience about my struggle, what would I expect from them? Or what with that in an ideal world would like them to offer our react and all that that thing. I think I can speak for all of us when I say that we would like that the person that we were confiding and it wasn't judgemental, that they listened that they asked the meaningful questions because I don't think we are adverse to answering questions. Asking meaningful respect questions. Um, was caring, was loving was, ah, reassuring, was, um, eager or interested to help and support us and was able to, I don't know, just recognise that it's a difficult topic for someone to open up about based on their own understanding. I mean, Muslim. We are all aware of our internal culture within you know what being Muslim means. We understand how to behave in certain environments and places ect. So I'd like that if I was to open up to someone about this topic that they were you know, they were there. They were supportive. They were not judging me. They were, you know, actually on the country and trying to help and trying their best to do that. So I'm not. I'm not saying that I would expect them to solve my issues, and have answers to all the questions that I have is really just as be there with me in my experience. Don't judge me and offer me just, you know, acceptance, love, compassion. Everything that we've been talking about in the last two episodes. Just, you know, try and be that. And you know what? That may be difficult for people. I get that right because what I've just said it may be really hard and tough for some people to manifest, and that's fine. But I guess it's all upon me as the person who is confiding in someone to recognise someone's capacity to deal with that information. So, like, I'm not gonna go out my way and tell someone who I know doesn't have the emotional maturity to do with it. That would just be me shooting myself in the foot makes no sense. I'm gonna go to people who I know can handle it. Who have, you know, a sound mind who are loving people who I know to be caring. I know that there they won't judge me etc.

Waheed:   37:49
Trustworthy and also grounded, grounded in the deen. Because a lot of us want to stay true to Allah and Islam, Right?

Aadam:   37:56
Exactly. Exactly. So I wouldn't like I wouldn't go about telling people in my workplace majority, majority of whom are not Muslim because they wouldn't get it, like from my perspective, they would just be like, well, why do you just not come out of the closet and just live your life as you know, as a gay person? So I'm gonna I'd only do this with people that are trustworthy and Brene Brown actually talks about this about vulnerability and how we aren't supposed to be vulnerable with just anyone and everyone. In fact, that's not what the point of vulnerability is. It's about identifying people who have earned that right to share that experience with you because not everybody does. So that was rhat's how that is my perspective from a personal level. I don't know if you have anything to add to that Waheed.

Waheed:   38:40
I would just basically say the same thing that you said from a personal perspective. But I also believe that, you know, um, part of this question comes from anxiety as a community, you know, there's this fear that okay, what demands are you trying to make of us as a community, like, do you want the mosques to change now and to hang up signs and whatever for this issue alone? Uh, and we're saying we're not saying that. Of course, we are not asking for any changes in the Muslim spaces, and we're not encouraging anyone to be open about their SSA in a sense of, you know, sporting this as a fact about them that everyone has to know about. No, that that's not what we're saying, actually, that makes it even closer to the gay identity. And this is something that we're not trying to do right?

Aadam:   39:27
It defeats the whole purpose

Waheed:   39:29
Just under a different name completely. But that's not the whole thing we're trying to do.

Aadam:   39:32
Yeah, I guess but we're asking for - like I said before, it was just asking for people to listen, to learn about the struggle, You know where it comes from and how to deal with it in a in a righteous way. Okay, so the next question "what does empathy mean here and how does the right kind of empathy differ from quote unquote empathy as used by the LGBT movement as a wedge to force normalisation again? The question off, what are true mercy and empathy? Are we playing the quote unquote victim card?"

Waheed:   40:11
Okay, so I have been attacked because I have used the terms empathy and compassion and understanding and love in the first episode.

Aadam:   40:20
Well we both have to be fair with throughout the last two.

Waheed:   40:24
Yeah, but particularly after the first episode when it was published. Yeah so, because and I didn't even expect that level of animosity towards these terms. Some people have assumed that I was calling for people to embrace the so called LGBT Muslims quote unquote, no matter what, even accepting same sex behaviours and that this is loaded terminology that is used by the LGBT movement and they're calling for empathy and acceptance and compassion and what not? And that's not what I meant at all. I've actually addressed this in my segment at the conference, and I will also address this again in episode five when we talk about the gay identity and its repercussions and you know that identity is a loaded terminology. But for now, let me just say this. Let us reclaim those terms, because isn't this what Islam is about? Islam is about mercy and love and compassion, right? Islam is about all of this while at the same time being firm with regards to the truth. Truth with a capital T. True mercy and compassion are not separate from the truth. Allah is the source of true love and mercy and compassion. If these attributes cannot be discussed without Allah, these qualities, we cannot discuss them without the presence of Allah SWT. Without Allah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. Being merciful and compassionate means standing up for what is right and upholding Islamic principles and values. And to add to that our happiness and peace and serenity in this life and everything that we strive for in this life and the next they are by holding onto the rope of Allah SWT and I'm sure that you, Aadam, attest to this. And I testify to this. Had it not been for Allah SWT and His love and being connected to Him and to His mercy and forgive forgiveness, particularly during the darkest periods of our lives, we would have lost the path a long time ago, right? Muslims. God knows Muslims haven't made it easy at all. And the other side hasn't made it easy either. And we know that this is a very difficult trial, particularly in this time and age. It is a trial that brings us to our knees in complete pain and weakness and brokenness. And we know for a fact and Allah SWT knows first and foremost that if we choose Him over and above everything and everyone else, this is a true act of courage and strength.

Aadam:   43:00
Yeah, that's such a beautiful response to that question. I don't have anything to add to a per se, but why would see to this person is to maybe, understand what we mean by empathy. Because in my understanding of empathy, in my study and time I've spent looking into empathy. It's, for me, standing inside of the experience of another person with them as much as you possibly can, right? So, people, oftentimes you oftentimes use the term "Stand in the persons shoes" and it's true is to stand in that person's experience. So if someone comes to you and confides, you know, I have. you know, I lost my mother, for example, you know, I've just had a death in my family. As a friend, as a loved one, you want to be there for that person. And you want to share their experience as much as possible. You know the best of the experiences they have and also the worst and the most difficult times, and that's what we are calling for. We're not calling for anything else, and we're calling for Muslims to help fellow Muslims remain steadfast upon Islam as per the Orthodox understanding of Islam. And by standing with us as we struggle with SSA, we have no desire to publicise our personal struggles in order to get sympathy or start a revolution or overhaul of how our deen is at the moment it's actually quite the opposite and as you know, brother Waheed said we need to reclaim our understanding of these terms because the very fact that somebody would associate these terms with LGBT+ movement is evidence of their success on our lack of. So these are not supposed to be terms that should be associated with one group or the other. They're universal concepts, and we choose how to apply them based on our understanding of the world, our purpose and whether we believe we have one or we don't whether we believe in a God or we don't. We get to choose how that manifests. And unfortunately, people who happened to be, you know, part of the LGBT plus movement have been doing a better job than Muslims at being and showing empathy and showing compassion and acceptance. And that's not me saying that we need to model everything that they do and become them absolutely, not. What we do need to do is we need to pave our own path hence A Way beyond the Rainbow.

Waheed:   45:23
Exactly, beautifully said thank you. Okay. Another statement was as follows  "All compassion in that sense must be balanced, and rational. Compassion can cross over into becoming affirmative of sin, which would be wrong. I also think" and this person is saying "I also think that we need to free ourselves of this impression that people with SSA somehow a special category of those who may sin and are therefore in need of more compassion than those who drink, eat non halal or who sleep around etcetera. I think compassion in this matter is wrought with potential pitfalls, which could inadvertently contribute to solidifying a type of gay identity among Muslims." So how would we respond to this?

Aadam:   46:14
That's a very specific question.

Waheed:   46:19
More of a statement.

Aadam:   46:20
Yeah, it's more of a statement. I think we don't need to respond to this because brother Yusef, for those of you who are unaware, Brother Yusef is the moderator of the straight struggle group. He did a great job of responding to this, and we were literally just gonna read out, his response. And so he says "That's fair, of course. But in the special case of Muslims with SSA is that they have nobody to turn to between a community that views the topic as too taboo to talk about in a world that is encouraging them to live out a life in accordance with the attractions. In that case, it's very much a special case and not like the categories mentioned. Also, none of the examples mentioned i.e. drinking, eating, non halal or sleeping around is being pushed as an identity. And so the youth dealing with same sex attractions have had years of conditioning as part of their identity that they must be quote unquote true, too. As a result, many have suffered through depression and severe mental anguish. If we do not make the effort to address these brothers and sisters with compassion and understanding, we will lose them altogether. I have spoken to brothers who have attempted suicide not because of them committing a sin, but because they were overwhelmed with the feelings of SSA and they did not know how to cope with it. When was the last time the suicide prevention hotline received a call from someone because they were eating pork, for example." A beautiful answer. It's a beautiful answer.

Waheed:   47:52
It is yes. God bless you Yusef, if you're listening to us jazakAllah khayr.

Aadam:   47:56
Absolutely. Okay, so the next question we have is as, "By asking for compassion for a person experiencing SSA, are we actually asking others to affirm people who have SSA as a distinct type of group or a distinct type or group of people. In that sense, we wouldn't we be then forming a kind of gay identity which imprisons people to think that they are a particular type of human being by virtue of the type of sexual desires that befall them. In that case, compassion would actually be counterproductive to what should be the best for believers. We need to put the dismantlement of gay identity at the forefront of this challenge because as long as people think themselves to be gay, they will give rise to a gay consciousness within themselves, which will always be a hindrance to their spiritual development"

Waheed:   48:55
OK, quite, um, you know, quite a loaded question. And so, yes, we definitely do agree with a part of about gay identity in terms of trying to dissect it and try to understand its repercussions, and we will discuss this in trouble. As I mentioned in the next episode, episode five, that's dedicated to this huge topic. Now, Yousef mentioned something nice in response to this, he said "The compassion part comes from acknowledging what they are going through on the understanding part comes from knowing that it is difficult given the context of the world that we live in. By no means does that need to be that I affirm this as an identity." Now, we understand that there is a fear that compassion and empathy could inadvertently reinforce an identity based on a certain type of desire. But here here's where it is important to deconstruct the notions of gay identity, which we will do in sha Allah and to raise awareness and to educate people well. At the same time, we offer proper help to people who are struggling, who have nowhere to turn to. This is what we are trying to do here, and we also there's a very nice answer by another brother, Brother Ahmed online, who commented. And he said, the following "It depends how SSA is used" quote unquote "if someone wears it as a public label in the community then it may become another term for gay, even though the idea behind the destroyer renounced the gay identity. But if, however, it is used just to name the condition of having same sex attractions and is used clinically or privately by Muslims seeking help or counselling for dealing with same sex attractions. Then why would it be problematic? We do use names for other conditions, like alcoholism or whatever, for example, and fork. And of course, no one would mistake that for an identity. It's trickier with SSA because the gay identity is currently so firmly entrenched in Western and increasingly global culture. We agree that recognising the constructed nature of that identity and the need to dismantle it and reject it wholesale as a community is vital. People who push for LGBT normalisation know that formula very well. Normal is identity first, and everything else automatically flows by logical necessity.

Aadam:   51:17
Yep, I agree. And I just want to add to that that we're not calling for SSA to be openly recognised, discussed, acknowledged through events, posters and signs. We've said already said this before, but the idea is that people would have awareness of the issue so that they can do with it in the right way. The whole reason why we're using pseudonyms in the first place is because we're not public about this our daily life. Waheed & we don't go around, you know, telling people we have, SSA. That's not what we do. We don't wear it on our sleeves. It's not the identity with which we go out and make the world on. We're not calling for it to become one, but is a real issue and are very real challenges of people with SSA face. They need to be dealt with maturely like we do, hopefully, with other issues. Also, the acronym is not the same thing as being gay. Gay is an identity with loaded connotations that intersect many aspects of human life under seen as essential to ones sense of self. This is something I think you've said will be mentioned, we will be discussing in the next episode five? This is something I think this has come up a couple of times throughout the questions we've kind of touched on this whole gay identity thing. So I think for people asking the question if you're listening and you really are curious, I'd encourage you to listen to episode are five to really get under the skin of this. So you understand how this is separated from what from SSA and also, then hopefully have a better appreciation for why we choose to use SSA as opposed to gay or homosexual. And SSA is merely an acronym of what one experiences -  so same sex attractions. This is an alternative discourse established by religious communities like us to free people from experiencing SSA and from internalising gay and lesbian identities, which are problematic in many ways. Again, I referenced episode five which is to come. In sha Allah to learn more about this.

Waheed:   53:25
Another question that was directed to me was, "Why hasn't the original article that I had written been revised to reflect the new understandings that I have gained over the past few years? Is the article misleading in any way in light of everything I have learned over the past four years since writing it?" I have added a caveat to the beginning of the article on my blog's saying, I don't identify with a loaded terminology like gay identity or homosexual. Now, if are there any new understandings that I have gained? Of course now, if I were to rewrite the whole article, I would change so many things about that. So let me tell you what are there was what those new understandings are. First and foremost obviously, the whole notion of gay identity and homosexual I would not use the terms gay or homosexual as nouns to describe myself. I would use the term homosexual as an adjective to describe my inclinations or attractions, and there's nothing wrong with that saying I have homosexual inclinations. There's nothing wrong with that. But identifying this part of the gay identity or saying I am gay is problematic, and again, we'll talk about this in the next episode in sha Allah. The second point is I, because I had this wrong understanding before that the topics of any any kind of a therapy that is used to address same sex attractions is wrong, and those people more harm than good will obviously some some aspects that have been used throughout history, some forms of torture and even quote unquote therapy, which is not actually therapy, these have led to a lot of harm's. But nowadays there are kinds of therapy cognitive behavioural, psycho dynamic., what is referred to as repetitive or reintegrative therapy has helped a lot of people, and we will talk about this in later episodes in sha Allah. So this is another point that I would like people to understand. And the 3rd one is the idea of remaining celibate, like I made it sound in my article like SSA is a death sentence like we are. We are doomed to have a life of celibacy, that it's not fair, but we endure it for the sake of Allah SWT and all of that, which is not necessarily true again. I was speaking on my own behalf. I was speaking from my own experience, but I get that a lot of people thought that I was speaking on behalf of everyone and that no one is ever going to get married. Anyone who struggles with this is never going to get married. That's not true. No, of course not. I mean, a lot of people have been able to get married and have kids and have a wonderful family lives. Whether they're attractions have decreased or not, whether they were able to develop opposite sex attractions or not, but a lot of them were able to to lead decent family lives and have kids and live with their wives or husbands if they were women, and that's a definitely a possibility. And some people have been committed to a life of celibacy. So that's another option available. Now a question for you, Adam. Is the community being unfairly represented by the assumption that it is uniquely bad on this issue?

Aadam:   56:30
This is a good question. I wonder what this, I wonder what this person thinks.

Waheed:   56:36
You and I were laughing about this question, remember?

Aadam:   56:38
Yeah, we were. So I would say it's a true phenomenon that is being ignored by the mainstream Muslim community. So what I mean by phenomena, as is SSA. What we see is the Jewish and Christian communities have their own support groups. They both are taking place a person to person and also those that are taking place online. I've only done a little bit off my own research on this, and I've seen a couple of these support groups, which was reassuring for me to see, but it was a little bit disappointing that it wasn't something that had been initiated by Muslims, and they also have their own books. They have counsellors, they have therapists. And if you look at the Muslim community. You know, you don't really see much.

Waheed:   57:31
The disappointment comes, you know, when you were saying you were disappointed because you were hoping that they would be Muslim because the first thing that we think about you know we would want our communities to have something that we can refer to have decent resources is that we can attend to, right? Well, unfortunately, that's not the case. But that's not to say that the Jewish or the Christian resources are you know, our mediocre or average. On the contrary, they're amazing, and we will refer to them in sha Allah in later episodes.

Aadam:   57:59
Yeah, inshallah. And so it's quite the norm that when someone with SSA goes to seek help from, let's say, the imam, a teacher, a friend or a parent in our communities, they are more often than not shunned and shamed. So if you just look at what's happened when the event in Dallas was advertised.Yeah, it's a pretty good demonstration of the fact that as a community we can we don't do with this well at all, and there's a lot of misunderstanding and preconceived notions and judgements that really need to be addressed and hopefully replaced with things that are more helpful for us. So, yes. As the people who struggle with SSA we do have reason to demand a more robust and informed response to this issue. Okay. And the next question, "If you have this test in life, you do have your work cut out for you. But don't delude yourself and thinking others don't have different challenges in life which takes tolls on them as well. Again are we engaged in special pleading? Why or why not?"

Waheed:   59:14
Okay, First of all, let me just say this when when we tried to ask questions or we try to raise certain objections, we can try and be nice, right? No one is. I'm not deluding myself. No one here is deluding themselves by thinking that others don't have different challenges in life. No one is saying that. Yes, there are other struggles and hardships that people go through whether they're connected to sex and sexuality or not. And these trials and hardships are very difficult. Everyone has their own trials in life. We're not pleading or and we're not ingraining the idea that people with SSA face worse struggles in life than others we're not saying that. But it is a tough trial nonetheless, and it comes with its own set of challenges nowadays that we've described before. So I guess we have pretty much summed this up. You know, during during this Q and a session, I believe we have addressed this question in our answers to previous questions as well.

Aadam:   1:0:16
Yeah, absolutely. I think we've spoken on this quite a lot, and it seems to be recurring theme doesn't . Why should we treat you any differently? You know are you trying to advocate for a Muslim gay identity etc. It's interesting that this pattern emerging of types of questions are coming out. And hopefully these people who have asked will listen to the podcast.

Waheed:   1:0:38
In sha Allah, I hope so.

Aadam:   1:0:39
And really hear what we're saying, because I think that having listened to the podcast, all the episodes and even having read your work Waheed on your blogg, I think you're very clear about where you stand on the issue. I just hope that people either haven't read those things, or heard those things, and it's not a case off they're choosing not to take in information as before them because of the you know, that the foggy lens with which they're seeing the water would so, yeah, I just want to say that because yeah, it's hard enough. It's hard enough. The questions and having to clarify them over and over again. But you know we'll do it and we'll persevere because as we said at the beginning, we have to give people advice with, you know, maturity and wisdom. And that's what Allah wants from us so we'll try our best to embody that as much as possible.

Waheed:   1:1:50
We move now to the topic of self love and self compassion that we have addressed in episodes two and three, and we have three questions on that.

Aadam:   1:1:58
The first question is, "How do we make sure that proper self love and self compassion or not confused with narcissism self indulgence and vanity, etcetera?"

Waheed:   1:2:10
Great. And this is a huge question. This is a beautiful question, and we were kind of expecting this, right? So to start with some reminders from episode two in particular, we said that self compassion is the middle ground between self indulgence on one hand and self pity on the other these are the two extremes. We're not talking about narcissism, self indulgence, self centredness. What have you but rather about maintaining a balance between these things on one hand, which we, as Muslims, recognise as common diseases of the heart that the deen has been sent to remedy. So that's on one hand and on the other hand, excessive self deprecation, self loathing, self hatred, constantly bashing oneself, which is opposed to healthy muhasaba and holding oneself accountable, right? So, in other words, having a healthy self regard, as some people would say, it is proper for a Muslim to have 'izza, which is dignity and self respect and proper self regard. This 'izza manifests itself in not debasing oneself or allowing oneself to be to be debased, for example. And there is a definite difference between proper'izza and arrogance or pride or vain glory on the other, which, on the other hand, which are in Arabic, kibr, takabbur, etcetera. But a lot of people who have SSA because of everything that they went through. Not only don't have this Islamic 'izza but they go to the opposite of 'izza, which is dhul debasing oneself. Idh lal an-nafs in Arabic. This is the opposite extreme of kibr, and it is not what Allah and the deen are calling us, to. Of course, we make tathalul to Allah SWT. In that sense, it is the proper attitude to have. But we are talking here not about being lonely and humble before Allah, whom you worship, which is the right attitude to have on the right kind of little to cultivate, but rather about again this self loathing and self hatred and excessive self deprecation. Muhasaba an-nafs, which is holding oneself accountable, is very vital. But karahiyat an-nafs in Arabic, which means hating oneself. This is not what Islam teaches, right? Allah created us, and we should not hate what Allah has created, especially since He has said in surah al-Isra' verse number 70 - "And We have certainly honoured the Children of Adam and carried them on the land and sea and provided for them of the good things and preferred them over much of what We have created with definite preference."

Aadam:   1:4:48
Yeah, absolutely. And just adding to that, Allah has breathed of His spirit into each and every human being. So the core of the human being is not something to be detested. Yes, we should hate our sins and bad actions. But precisely because we know that by disobeying Allah we are compromising, besmirching and harming our own souls our Ruh. That very essence that, although has breathed into his by, which he has ennobled us in virtue of, which he has raised us up and called upon us to be his khalifa fil 'ard. And so if you remember an episode two, we can think of as treating yourself like you retreat someone in love who is going through a tough time. You love yourself? Yeah, To love yourself in a way that you remove that whip you're using on yourself are self flagellation. And you take care of the inflamed wounds in a gentle way. Something which I have bean very guilty of. I continue to be guilty of sometimes, but I'm working on it. Not perfect.Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a journey. So you know, just on a little tangent if anyone listening is going through a tough time and they are, you know, the feel like that. They feel like they've not met their own expectations of they feel like they've failed, someone or whatever. Maybe take it easy. You know, I actually was listening back to episode three earlier on today because I needed a reminder of some of those concepts that Waheed and I talked about. So, you know, the reason why I say this is because sometimes even the people giving the advice sometimes need to take it themselves.

Waheed:   1:6:27
Oh, yes,

Aadam:   1:6:27
You know. So, I know we're here talking about these things and in many ways, we're just a mouthpiece. Not perfect we're a work in progress. So, you know, Please pray for us. I mean and just continuing on the topic. Allah talks about different levels of nafs in the Quran. Nafs-al Amara bill su' an-nafs Alawama and an-nafs al-mutmainna. My first language is not Arabic as you can all tell. So I hope I didn't mess up. But much of modern, narcissistic, egotistical quote unquote self love culture - so all in the negative sense calls us to indulge in our lower nafs-al amara bil su' but this is not the nafs that we are saying we should cultivate develop and love when we talk about self love. So I remember speaking about this in episode number two at the beginning of it when we talked about contrasting the extremes of self love and you know, on the other hand, self hatred ylmost so, Yeah, so they were going and touched on this, but just again, so as a reminder. And we're aiming to work on ourselves constantly so that with the taufeeq of Allah SWT, we can reach the state off nafs al- mutmainna. That's the nafs which Allah addresses and invites into Jannah as per surah al-Fajr and He says, "Oh assured soul, return to your Lord well pleased and pleasing to him and enter among my rightoues servants and enter my paradise". And I pray that we all hear this in the next life from Allah  SWT and that we are all among the people of Jannah.

Waheed:   1:8:11
Ameen.

Aadam:   1:8:12
This nafs, this ruh that Allah has placed between our sides is, at its core something very precious not something to be detested or despised, but something that we something to be loved and something to be cherished. And that's not an invitation to self indulgence or to commit sins since, as we said before committing sins actually harms defiles and compromises that very nafs and ruh on account of which Allah has ennobled and raised the ranks of us as being mankind amongst all of his creation.

Waheed:   1:8:50
Another question that we have is "In episode two you mentioned the unconditional love of Allah while at the same time we know that He SWT has mentioned in the Koran that he does not love specific people. That's why he sent punishment on them. Can you elaborate on this?" So what we meant when we talked about that you know, the unconditional love of Allah and that Allah is the all Merciful, the source of love, unbounded source of mercy and kindness. And lutf and muwadda, etcetera. This is what we meant. He has breathed into each of us a precious room, a soul, a spirit which never loses its core quality of having been breathed into us by Him SWT. So for that reason, the ruh which lies at our core is always a candidate for Allah's love, right? It doesn't mean that a lot loves us no matter what we do. Even if we are wilful, ardent and inveterate sinners. Of course, Allah does say in the Quran that Allah does not love, you know, x or y group in specific. Uh, yet. But that is not the context in which I was talking about divine love. Right in episode two, I listed some of the ahadith, I was talking about this this love in terms of our core. Allah's regard for the ruh that He has breathed into us and by which He has ennobled us as a species. Yes, we can earn his wrath in various ways by disobeying him by being corrupt people by spreading corruption, et cetera. But even then, the door of tawba is always open, right? So and there are tons of verses and ahadith that talk about, you know, Allah calling us to come back to Him after sinning right to make repentance. And so, for example, in Surah al-Baqarah verse 222 He says, "Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves" and so many other verses and ahadith that talk about this. So Allah is at-Tawab ur-Raheem, always ready to accept the tawba of His servants and confer His love on them. The door of tawba is open unconditionally, and so the means to Allah's good pleasure and love are present always and they're available unconditionally to anyone who wishes to avail himself of them. So that's what we mean by that.

Aadam:   1:11:16
Yeah, I just want to add something that came to my mind as you were going through this. I remember listening to one of the Shuyukh talk about the names of Allah SWT particularly and surah al-Fatiha how when He talks about ar-Rahman ar-Rahem and he actually explained that there's two aspects to the love of Allah SWT which manifest in those words and those names of his. And he talked about how there's this universal love that He has and mercy that is an indiscriminate of His amongst His creation. So we're talking about the fact that the sun rises in the morning as it does and sets in the evening, and that the moon exists the fact. We are able to breathe in oxygen and exists, and it it it stays in the state that it does in order for us to survive. We're talking about the fact that non Muslims, people who don't believe in God or do believe in Him, but have misonceptions misunderstandings about who He is they are able to experience joy, happiness, fulfilment, achievement, success, power or that's that universal. There's this universal kind of dispersion of mercy amongst existence among His creation that everybody benefits from. And then there was the other aspect of it, which was a mercy that's specific for the believers, and that is something that only the believers receive that type of mercy. And I remember him explaining that, and thinking subhanAllah  like this really kind of explains a lot of people, sometimes that may look at civilisations. And I know definitely in the past, if you study Islamic history, you'll see instances where people have seen nations or people who were more.,I don't know, technologically superior or had more power or intellect or knowledge they were looked up to, as somehow, you know more enlightened or favoured by the gods as they would understand them at the time. But that's not true. Just because you may not have you know something with material success in the world. Or maybe you're not doing that well in life or you don't have money or you you whatever your situation is, um, that Allah SWT that's not, His love is not determined by physical things in the dunya. Absolutely not. And so I just wanted to add that as another layer to this, because I think it's important to understand. And I think it really helps people with their relationship with Allah SWT. I know that when I have shared some of these things that people, these brothers, that I speak to, and we'll be talking about things and I'll just share something not that I'm fountain of knowledge or nothing, I'm just saying, I just share what I can. You know, when I share these things I've heard people say, Oh my God, I never I never thought of it that way. I didn't know that and I talk about with people knowing Allah SWT, like really getting to know him and beyond, just accepting that He's the creator of you, like what does that mean, like, how does that manifest? How is He showing up in your life? And you know, when you call to Him, what does that call sound like? And what are your conversations like, Ah, do you feel anything. Do you feel like you receive anything? You know, all of these things, So I just Yeah, I just hope that you know this helps people because, honestly, the mercy and love of Allah SWT is I know this is a cliche, but it's almost indescribable. Like it's words He's pre-eternal. There's no beginning or end to Him. And so, you know, understanding Him and his totality is impossible. But we do know Him, and we can get to know Him by what He's revealed to us. So, um, yeah, we just yet I just wanted to share that.

Waheed:   1:15:11
That's brilliant. Thank you for sharing that, Uh, that's that's very beautiful. So how about you take us into the last question in today's episode?

Aadam:   1:15:28
Okay - so the last question is, "There's a lot of misunderstanding earned the topic of self love and compassion. And when it comes to the matter of SSA, the concept of self love has become confused with the idea of accepting yourself as gay. How do you address this confusion" Again it's very, is on that sort of same theme we're seeing through a lot of questions. And it's a very good question, and it has many layers of the answers, many layers to it. So in one corner we have the LGBT people who claim that the only way for us to love ourselves is to accept ourselves as quote unquote gay and permite ourselves to have same sex relationships regardless of what the religious right have to sau about it. Love is love, you know, love who you want as long as you're not harming anybody. You know, that's that type of rhetoric and the problem with this approach is that it bundles self love in with the idea of the gay identity. So as we've been speaking in this in this episode, in addressing these questions like we need to separate these two and we need to stop thinking of associating self love and compassion and empathy with the LGBT movement. They are universal concepts again. As I said before, we get to choose how we implement them and to what degree and extent that we go in terms of our worldview or understanding. Eventually, such people end up moving away from Islam. So if you begin to buy into the idea that self love, compassion, empathy etc etc are intrinsic to the gay entity and are not, you can't find them elsewhere, then unfortunately it can logically then would suggest that you there's no way for you to live a life where you'll be happy and fulfilled and content with yourself and the world, which is not a good thing. So I hope that we've driven this home throughout this episode. And on the other corner we have all the strugglers quote unquote strugglers who most definitely do not accept themselves gay, but who have fallen into shame, self hatred and, in some cases, suicidal ideation. And this is this also as a very unhealthy way of being. So strugglers tend to have a really hard time with the concept of self love, me included, because the concept of self love is so alien to them. Why should I love myself if I have these impulses? Surely my whole life should be devoted to crushing these evil desires within myself and others. And unfortunately, one who is unable to arrive at a place of peace within themselves will tend to find themselves in a state of war. So constantly battling between these two extremes. And many outspoken homophobes, quote unquote also struggle with the SSA in secret.

Waheed:   1:18:13
Exactly. Yes, right.

Aadam:   1:18:15
So the are going on the offensive, the appeal of this anger and rage and resentment, which is really just self anger, self resentment at themselves tha then project onto the world. And they attacked the evil, that's they see outside of themselves but can't find any way of resolving it within themselves. And so that war just keeps going and going and going right. And many of us feel that we don't identify with either of these camps in sh Allah. I'm hoping that that's us. And in the listeners and after growth and healing, we have come to a point where we accept our homosexual feelings, but without acting out with individuals of the same sex. So we no longer struggle in the same way because we no longer repress our feelings. Instead of that, we become aware of our feelings. And then we become aware of what's beneath my feelings or our feelings rather and what that represents. And in sha Allah, there's gonna be more on this in the future. I touched on this before as well, you know, when the question was asked about whether it was just about the sexual desires and, you know, is it really about emotions and things. As we uncover that in the future episodes, as Waheed uncovers that in future episodes, it will be more apparent and more clear that there's so much more to this that needs to be learned.

Waheed:   1:19:33
And so with this, we have come to the end of today's episode, which was a Q and A episode. JazakomAllah khayran and thank you so much for everyone who has sent in comments and messages and e mails. We really appreciate all of your efforts, and we hope that we have addressed your concerns and any comments that you have raised. We also hope that for a lot of the listeners who have some fears and anxieties when it comes to like, Where are we coming from, or are you know, if they have any issues with what we are trying to present, I hope that this puts their hearts and minds at ease. In sha Allah, I would also like to take this opportunity to thank my wonderful co host, Adam. You have been amazing in yesterday's episode and in the past two episodes, and I really look forward to having you and in sha Allah in the future as a co host again.

Aadam:   1:20:31
Yes, in sha Allah, I look forward to that. I'm coming back has been great. It's being good.

Waheed:   1:20:36
It's been wonderful.

Aadam:   1:20:37
It has been wonderful. But I hope that for the listeners, I really, really, really pray and hope that has been beneficial. I hope that, you know, I've been able to share some wisdom. I hope that you've been able to see some part of yourself in our in our stories in the struggles that we've had. I hope that they what we've been talking about for the last two episodes or this third one has given you some hope and light, and it's taken off some burden. If you if you have that. And you know we were here, so, you know, just hit us up. Like, even though I'm not going to be on every episode, I will in sha Allah, be helping behind the scenes and with Waheed, because I'm very very passionate about this, about addressing this topic. So just reach out. And, if you have questions, if you have worries, if you have a particular situation that you need some help with, then please please reach out. Because that's what we're here for.

Waheed:   1:21:37
In sha Allah.  As always, you can reach us through our email awaybeyondtherainbow@gmail.com. You can access all our episodes on the website awaybeyondtherainbow. buzzsprout.com. And you can listen to us any time on your favorite podcast apps like Apple podcasts. Google Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, i-heart radio and tune in radio. This has been Waheed Jensen with my dear friend Aadam, and I look forward to talking to you next Friday in sha Allah when we talk a little bit about the history and the progression of the gay liberation movement, its effects on pop culture and media, as well as try to understand the notion of gay identity and tried to discuss it from an Islamic paradigm in sha Allah. Until next Friday. I hope that you have a wonderful week ahead.