0:38  
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi ta'ala wa barakatuh, and welcome to "A Way Beyond the Rainbow", this podcast series dedicated to Muslims experiencing same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and Islam. I am your host, Waheed Jensen. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. It's so nice to be talking to you after a long break, subhan Allah. The last time we spoke together was the last Friday before Ramadan, it's been quite some time. I hope you're all doing great, you're on your best health and on your best Deen and dunya, inshaAllah. I would like to give a big shout out and a big "thank you!" Jazakom Allah khairan to everyone who has been sending lots of emails and messages and sharing the episodes and sending lots of love. I've received lots of heartwarming feedback, so many emails, alhamdulillah, that have really really touched me in the most extraordinary ways. I was really touched by you guys, alhamdulillah, with all of your love and all of your support and all of your caring. You guys are amazing, I am so humbled and honored and grateful to know you and to get to read all of your emails, alhamdulillah. I'm so happy to always read from you, and please do forgive me if sometimes I get too busy and I don't really get to your emails or your messages in due time, but I do eventually read them all, and I do get back to you, so jazakom Allah khairan, I really really appreciate all of this beauty that is the listeners of this wonderful podcast, jazakom Allah khairan. It's so nice to be back alhamdulillah, we have lots of goodies planned for this season. Just a quick reminder, you can always listen to this podcast, inshaAllah, on the regular venues such as Apple podcasts, Google podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, iHeart Radio, and TuneIn Radio. And if you want a comprehensive resource to access all of the episodes as well as the word-for-word transcripts with the chapter markings, you can always visit our website awaybeyondtherainbow.buzzsprout.com. That is your go-to resource if you want to have access to all of the resources available, all of the links in every episode as well as the transcripts that are available to you. As I said, lots of topics are planned for season two. Actually, there have been some changes in plans based on your comments and your feedback, some topics have been pushed forward to season three. And we're going to focus in this season more on spiritual topics, we'll be looking at the struggle with same-sex attractions from a spiritual lens, inshaAllah. Now, before we go into the details of what is planned in this season, I thought about actually dedicating this season premiere to talk about some points that are worth addressing, that I have read through your emails and through your messages or on blogs and forums with regards to either some questions or some, you know, misconceptions, it's worth actually going through all of these together. So it's more like a Q&A session/further explanations and clarifications, if you will. So as you remember, in season one, the season was dedicated to kind of building foundations. So, as you remember, we spoke about self-love and compassion and vulnerability. We talked about the notion of "gay identity" and how that fits the Muslim paradigm, saying "I have or I experience same-sex attraction" versus saying "I am gay" or "I am homosexual". So, using it as an adjective versus as a noun: "I have homosexual tendencies" versus "I am homosexual", the essentialist versus the non-essentialist paradigms. And then, we also talked about the genesis of SSA, we spoke about the genetics and temperamental predispositions, family dynamics, we spoke about inferiority complexes, peer relations, the rules of abuse, media, culture and society. And we said that these are the general principles, and of course, we all operate on different backgrounds and there's no one-size-fits-all approach. We talked about shame in detail, we talked about characteristics and properties, such as narcissism, inferiority, we talked about assertion, and we talked about the concept of reparative drive. We went into that in detail. In episode 11, we had Michael Gasparro talk to us about reintegrative therapy and its principles, and how to manage and navigate the gray zone, and in episode 12, we had a comprehensive, long episode where Mr. Richard Cohen was a guest speaker, and we talked about his four-stage pathway to overcoming one's SSA and leading a life that is true to one's values. So we kind of went into the deep, deep details related to the psychology of SSA, and navigating some foundational frameworks. So as I said, in this episode, I'm going to clarify some concepts related to these, address some questions that I have received and to kind of, you know, address also some of the misconceptions that I have realized some people may have had certain problems with. So let's start with these topics one by one.

6:09  
For people with same-sex attractions, in particular, qualitative and quantitative research in the fields of psychology and human behavior has shown patterns in upbringing and behavior that apply to a large number of us. So that's in terms of where these attractions are thought to arise from, as well as the behavioral patterns that appear in life. And these things we have covered in season one. We talked about the genesis in season one, we went into the details and the research into genetics, the inherent predisposition, the homo-emotional wounds, the hetero-emotional wounds, the sibling wounds, body image issues, inferiority complex, peer relations, abuse, etc. Now, the question is, does each and every one have to check these boxes? Like is it a checklist and I have to check each and every box? Of course not. Some of us check many of these boxes, and some will check a few boxes, and some even would say, "I wouldn't check any box, because it doesn't apply to me". and that's completely fine, right? So that's as far as the genesis is concerned. What about the behavioral patterns? There are higher incidences of, as we said in season one. codependencies, attachment issues, interpersonal dependency as well as mental health issues, that range from depression to anxiety, OCD, self-harm, borderline personality disorders, among others. Again, the same applies here: does everyone have to have these issues? Of course not. Do some of us have some of these issues? Yes. Do we all fit the same patterns? No. As I always said, and as you recall in season one, you take whatever applies to you, you see where you fit. Of course there is no one-size-fits-all. But when we present the topic, we try to present it comprehensively, and you see where things fit for you. I mean, you have your own narrative at the end of the day, right? So, one of the things that I like to tell people is, just think of it as a bell-shaped curve: we have some people on one extreme, where they check the boxes of, you know, the genesis and upbringing patterns, and also the mental health issues and behavioral patterns, and you have people on the other extreme, where they barely check any boxes, they're more stable than, let's say, 99% of us, and a large number of people in between. So it's a bell-shaped curve. So, you may find yourself on one extreme, where you tick all of these boxes, whether it's genesis, behavioral patterns, or both, or in the other extreme of barely ticking any of these boxes, and you still have SSA. So again, it's not a one-size-fits-all approach, that's perfectly fine. Now, there's also an idea that, "Okay, well, you know, you've presented the notions and the research from Joseph Nicolosi, Richard Cohen, Van Den Aardweg, Janelle Hallman, and so on, are there any other theories that can explain all of this? Or, many of the cases of SSA, they do not fit necessarily those models?" Absolutely. No doubt. Those are models that offer explanations based on the available data, based on empirical research and empirical evidence. It's not meant to be absolute for each and every individual case. Right? So you will have cases that these models fail to explain. We try to see those specific cases, and we try to learn more, but it doesn't mean that the whole model is to be disregarded, because there are some cases that do not quite fit. That's perfectly fine. That is normal in social and behavioral sciences, and even in natural sciences.

10:00  
There is another notion which has created some confusion or maybe misconceptions that are worth addressing. So the term "trauma" - when trauma is used in psychology or behavioral sciences, it does not necessarily have to mean, you know, full fledged abuse. Of course, not all of us have experienced abuse per se. Trauma in psychology is defined as an event that is distressful, whether it is actually received or perceived as such by the mind. And this is very important. Either it is there objectively received, or it can be perceived by the mind. So it's subjective. So, yes, abuse is trauma, no doubt. But neglect, for example, is also trauma. Not being given enough love and attention is traumatizing. Not being told, "I love you" at all is traumatising. Being constantly bashed and made fun of, made to feel less than, made to feel unworthy, inferior and so on, these are all traumatizing. So, all that and more is interpreted by the mind as distressful. Now, there's another question which is, "Okay, we go through all of that in our lives, right? So a lot of us go through all of these, "traumas". So why do some people end up developing same-sex attractions in particular?" So, this question is usually, for example, you know, about kids being sexually abused, and they don't develop same-sex attractions, while someone goes through sexual abuse and develops same-sex attractions, or maybe doesn't even go through sexual abuse but develops same-sex attractions. Or, for example, someone had a very horrifying experience with his father growing up, but didn't develop same-sex attractions, while another person had a very loving father and ended up with same-sex attractions. So these are like maybe exceptions to the models. Another example is children of single moms, no same-sex attractions. How do we explain all these things? So as we said, if you recall, in season one, we stressed on the idea that, what helps is to actually think of this as an accumulation of different variables, where the sum of whatever those variables may be in one's life is larger than the individual parts. So we don't necessarily look at one particular event, but we look at the entire canvas, so to speak. One theory that actually explains this goes as follow: remember when we said that there's a predisposing temperament or like an inherent predisposition or a hypersensitivity, right? This is kind of a priming factor, it primes us. And that's kind have been postulated as the missing piece of the puzzle that explains those patterns. So this temperamental predisposition, it kind of influences the way that we receive or perceive (again) those outside influences. So this predisposing factor, whether it is genetic or temperamental, that makes us hypersensitive, we kind of, as a result, internalize those distressing events, or "traumas", in ways that other people don't. So recall the "lock and key" model. So I have the lock, I have that predisposition, I have that temperament. And the key is the environmental factors that kind of, you know, ignite that outcome, so to speak. So yes, children of single moms may not develop SSA - well, maybe they had a father figure, whether it's an uncle, whether it's a neighbor, whether it's a friend, whoever, may have kind of compensated for that. Kids undergo sexual abuse, right? Not all of them developed same-sex attractions, and we've actually addressed this in episode eight, and in episode 10 when it comes to female same-sex attractions. So it depends on other variables that may come into the equation, right? Someone may have had a horrible experience with his father, but maybe, in the meantime, there was a father figure or an older brother or someone else who kind of compensated for that, or kind of diluted the negative effects in a way, or whatever there may be, right? So we can only postulate whatever happened, but you know, we have to see the entire picture and look at it. So one question that might come up is, "I have never experienced trauma, and I have same-sex attractions, how do you explain this?" So when someone asks me this question, I kind of, you know, try to discuss with them all of these topics of predisposition and genesis and behaviors and stuff. We tend to probe a little bit further and to explore the themes that we have previously spoken about: the hypersensitivity, the relationship with the father, the relationship with the mother, the relationship with the siblings, peer rejection, shame, etc. Now, some things with time may come up, it's like a bulb that will light up. Other times, nothing will come up. And that's fine. Psychologists and therapists, they also help with the process, because it's important to realize, as we said before, that the mind kind of shuts those memories out, right? The way that the mind deals with distress and trauma is that it shuts it out completely, and it buries it into the subconscious. So a lot of us don't remember certain things - it's like a black hole. Now, with some help, particularly through therapists and counselors, one may start to uncover those deep wounds and to address them. And it's very important to also note that there is trauma caused by what is called a prolonged light stress factor, which means that the stress is kind of, you know, it is there, but it's light. It's low grade, and it lasts for a long period of time, so several years during childhood. Let's say it's emotional neglect, for example. The severity of this sometimes tends to be underestimated. And the stress factor, as we said, it lasts for a long time, to the extent that the child thinks that this is the norm. So a child who has been, for example, deprived of love or has been emotionally neglected, and then suddenly he develops relationships as an adult or a grown-up, where he or she receives love, that is kind of distressing, because "Oh my God! What's happening? I've never been used to that!" So that is a source of severe cognitive and emotional dissonance. So it's very common for that particular person to believe that his/her childhood was "normal" and trauma-free, because they've been used to that, and they think of it as a norm. So I mean, "Okay, so, whatever, like, I didn't have that, I didn't have any traumas. So what?" Now, okay, so after we kind of probe further, and let's say after a therapist comes in, and they try to help this individual to try to understand maybe their emotional or psychological traumas, their childhood issues and so on, the question is, could some of us find nothing? For sure. Yeah. So that's the notion when we say that those models don't necessarily explain all of the cases, all the time, but they do explain a large number of us, they do explain a large number of cases, and we should not really ignore that. Makes sense? Which brings me to the next point, that is, we'd never know, unless we try and see for ourselves, would we? So that's the whole point. No one is pushing anyone to go for therapy or whatever. But the fact that some have benefited and actually turned their lives around is worth pondering upon, right? Others may have benefited.. not as much. The fact that there is benefit means that it could work, right? So that's all we're saying. Another question is, "Why do we go into the causes in the first place if the end result is the same?" Meaning that, "Okay, I've ended up with SSA, regardless of whatever causes there may or may not have been, I have SSA, that's the reality. So what do I do now? Of course, regardless of one's genetics, upbringing and life traumas, if any, we must still make a value-based decision, as they say, this decision on how to live my life, and in our case, a life that is true to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and Islam. Some of us find that, "Okay, I need to explore those root causes in order to help me understand, to kind of deal with and to overcome, to whatever extent possible, many of those underlying issues and matters that are kind of hampering my progress." Others may find that they don't necessarily need to do all of this, and their SSA is kind of in check and they can move on. So, the conclusion is, it depends on you. No one is forcing anyone here, regardless of the genesis, we are responsible for reflecting morally on our inclinations, right? And we are responsible for making sound decisions of how we want to live our lives. I think we can all agree on this. And we aim to get to a better place mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually, inshaAllah, and to be at peace in our own skin and with Allah. That can definitely be attainable. inshaAllah, regardless of what happens to our SSA, whether our SSA still remains the same, whether it decreases or increases, no matter what happens to that, our ultimate aim is to live a life that is true to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and Islam, where we are comfortable in ourselves and can reach a specific balance that can help us live that life that we want. I think we can all agree on that, right?

20:13  
There have been some questions related to reintegrative therapy, and there have been some misconceptions with regards to that, and kind of including that under the umbrella of conversion therapy or reorientation therapy or what have you. Now, if you recall, in episode 11 with Michael, at the beginning, at the very beginning of the episode, we talked about what is meant by conversion therapy or ex-gay ministries or whatever that means - that is a kind of a wastebasket term that involves any effort to kind of change an individual's sexual orientation to make them "straight", whether it's boot camps or religious getaways or whatever that may be. It is ill-defined, it does not have a licensing board, it is not based on evidence-based therapeutic methods. So we need to understand that. Unfortunately, the media and even some of us may refer to any therapy that helps individuals with SSA as conversion therapy. So we need to kind of understand this, and we need to be clear about this. Conversion therapy or ex-gay therapy or whatever terms that are used, these have nothing to do with reparative or reintegrative therapy. Reintegrative therapy, again, back to episode 11, it is therapy that is evidence-based, there is a licensing board, and it involves dealing with issues and traumas that a person may have, and it works on overcoming these traumas. The goal behind it is not to change one's sexual orientation. It is a form of trauma-based therapies. And again, you can go back to episode 11 and listen to the entire episode, and there are lots of resources in the episode description, links that you can go to and read more about this if you want more information. Now, why do people do this? Well, because a lot of people found that if they do this kind of therapy, if they uncover these traumas and they overcome them, with time, they have noticed that they are more comfortable in their own skin, more comfortable in their own gender identity, in their manhood, for example, and they have noticed that their SSA has, in fact, decreased with time, they have been able to develop what is known as a "heterosexual potential", and eventually either get married or stay celibate, whatever that is, but they have reached a point where they are more comfortable in their own skin, regardless whether their sexual orientation has changed or not. So again, for more information, that's all covered in episode 11, I just wanted to reiterate that, just to kind of clarify it, and to emphasize this very important point. Now, some people benefit from this kind of therapy, others not so much. And that's perfectly fine. And actually Michael said that himself, he said, "Well think about it as a way - does this help me in my life journey? If it may help me, then let me try it. If it doesn't, then I can actually leave". And that happens, that's perfectly legitimate, we may benefit from it, or we may not benefit from it. And that's completely fine. Another question is, "Are all therapists equally helpful or reliable?" Of course not. You have professionals in different fields in life. Are all of them equally helpful or reliable in their specific fields, whatever field that may be: humanities, social sciences, experimental sciences, and so on? No, of course not. Some are, some aren't, right? And the same goes for therapy. Proper therapists out there, they employ evidence-based techniques, and their ideas and methods are based on research. In season one, when we spoke about the genesis and the behavioral patterns of individuals with SSA, and all of the approaches to deal with all of this, from episode 7 all the way up until 12. All of the content there is not based on a few case reports or anecdotal evidence, but it's rather based on decades-long observational studies, and a lot of trial and error. And even therapists themselves, many of them belong to different schools of thought. They agree on certain aspects and then disagree on other matters. And that is perfectly fine. Again, that is found in all fields in life. That's how it is. That's life. So with some, there's a lot of trial and error, there are decades of experience, and even the frameworks and the methodologies change with time. Things work with some people, and they may even backfire with other people. Some therapists have their own biases, and they become staunch opponents of other points of views. That's expected as with every profession, so we're human at the end of the day, and not all therapists even agree on everything within the same field. And it's very important to note that therapy is just one aspect of it. So there are lots of other variables in there. Like, for example, to what extent that particular therapist is knowledgeable and understanding? The therapist-client relationship is very important. To what extent there is trust and proper rapport between the therapist and the client? What are the techniques that are used during therapy, like cognitive-behavioral therapy, trauma-based therapy, and so on, there are lots of techniques that are used. To what extent I, as a client, am ready and open, and what I anticipate will happen, among others. So it's very important to note that there are lots of variables that come into the equation. Also, we're talking about the human psyche, and emotions and perceptions and traumas. That's a huge labyrinth. And on top of all of that, therapists come with different experiences, and they have their own biases, and they have their own methodologies, etc. They're human at the end of the day, right? And we as clients, we come from all across the spectrum. We have our own baggage, we have our own experiences, we have our own temperaments and personalities. And let's not forget our own mental health issues. So as you can see, there are lots of variables that come into play. There's also a need to work on the comorbidities that we have described previously, such as the mental health issues and the behavioral patterns that we have. And working on these, in and of itself, leads to growth, inshaAllah. Also, what I keep on saying is that it's not just therapy that ought to be pursued. So remember when we talked about a holistic or a comprehensive approach, particularly with Richard Cohen in episode 12, we need to focus on spirituality, on building a proper strong relationship with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. We need to have our own support system, we need to have our own mentors. We need to have friendships, we need to read, we need to read books and discuss and reflect. We need to build communication skills. We need to build our body through sports and proper nutrition, etc. So it's a holistic approach. Therapy is one aspect of that.

27:31  
There is another important point that needs to be addressed. When we talk about "healing", what is meant by "healing"? When we talk about "cure", and I really don't like that term when it's used with SSA -  "cure". What does that mean? "Overcoming one's SSA" - what does that mean? Different people define healing or cure or what have you, they define it differently, whether it is therapists, or whether it's clients themselves. So does healing mean 100% opposite-sex attractions? Does healing mean 0% same-sex attractions? Does healing mean marriage ultimately? Or not having same-sex triggers at all? My answer is: what works for you is the proper answer to this question. What does healing mean to you? What are your goals? Again, if we want to get to a better place mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually and to be at peace in our own skin and with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that can be attainable, inshaAllah, regardless of what happens to one's same-sex attractions. There is another question which is, "There are some therapists who report 100% success rates (whatever "success" means in this case), should we be skeptical? What do you think of that?" So my question would be, what do they mean by "100%" and what do they mean by "success"? And we need to also see, is it short-term? Or is it long-term? To what extent have these clients, for example, been followed? So if you tell me that an individual has been followed up for a few months after therapy, that is different from that specific individual being followed up for 10 years, let's say, right? Because it is very common that after someone ends their treatment phase, that after a while they relapse, or lots of changes happen in their lives, and they find themselves going back to square one, for example. So that is very important to be noted. So again, what do they mean by "success"? Is it 100% opposite-sex attractions? Is it less SSA, more opposite-sex attractions? Is it having peace in my life, being comfortable in my own skin? There is something also important which is, what is the context of this "success"? To what countries do these people belong? So if you tell me about the US, the experiences there are completely different from Europe or the Middle East, or Asia or Africa. What are the therapeutic techniques that are used? Again, what are the backgrounds of these clients? And once again, what are the periods of follow-up? Is it a short-term follow-up after that, or is it long-term follow-up? These have to be taken into account. So what I encourage you to do is, if you are interested in this, to read more about this, to ask those therapists in particular, to check their methodologies, to question them. Don't take things for granted. Every experience is different, what works for X might not work for Y, and vice versa. Now, there's another question which is, "What if a therapist seems to pressure me or to or to force me to think or behave in a certain way, or maybe to accept certain matters that he/she takes for granted? Or maybe he/she comes with his/her own biases, or maybe they're not open to my ideas and my experiences?" Now this could happen, as with any human interaction, and in this case, communication is very important. We need to communicate. We need to express our ideas and feelings and thoughts and have proper rapport. One thing I always say is, we're all grown ups. We're not kids anymore. So if we feel we are pressured or we are forced into something, we can say "No!" Simple, right? We ought to. We're not doormats, right?! Like, really, even if a therapist says something that doesn't resonate, we can disagree, and that therapist should be able to work with that if they are professional. They need to be able to do that. It is a mutual relationship that is based on proper communication and clear grounds. Anything that involves disrespecting me, my values, or enforcing ideas on me, especially ideas that don't make any sense, or anything that's just plain stupid, that's out of the question, right? And if you feel that that is happening with you, even though you're trying to communicate, but it's like a brick wall, then leave, it is absolutely your right. Again, if you feel you're pressured, or there are certain models that are shoved down your throat, or if you're misunderstood, your experiences and your thoughts are not taken seriously, etc. That is not okay. I also got some messages from listeners who had the impression that the podcast is trying to promote therapy, or the works of "controversial individuals" - I'd like to make a few clarifications, and I kind of hope that they resonate with you. The whole idea behind the podcast is to give a safe space for Muslim men and women experiencing same-sex attractions to feel embraced and understood, to learn about their SSA, and to reach a place of peace, in line with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and Islam, inshaAllah. That's the whole point. And the podcast consists of many seasons, inshaAllah, and we are trying to cover all aspects as much as we can, so as to offer a comprehensive outlook, not just to the main audience of Muslims with same-sex attractions, but also to parents and family members, to friends, to community leaders, to scholars and to the Ummah at large. It's not an easy feat, as you can see, but it has to be done, and we're getting there slowly, inshaAllah. So, trying to present a comprehensive approach without talking about therapy at all would be lacking, right? Because proper evidence-based therapy, as we said, has helped individuals deal with their mental health issues and get to a better place in their own lives. Now, are we promoting reparative or reintegrative therapy? No. Are we pushing anyone to try that? No. Are we claiming that they work with everyone? Of course not. Do some people benefit? Yes. Do some people not benefit? Yes, that's the case. Of course. Now, am I personally, as Waheed, am I an advocate for therapy? I'm not an advocate for a particular kind of therapy, but rather any approaches that help you get to a better place where you feel comfortable in your own skin, and you can live a life true to Allah, to Islam and your own values. Isn't this what we care about? I've been saying this over and over again, right? Now at the same time, talking about SSA, without talking about therapy and progress made in the field, particularly the topics and the themes mentioned in the previous season, would be a deficient endeavor. But also, at the same time, focusing only on therapy, that would be another deficient endeavor, right? That's why we're trying to be as comprehensive as possible. Therapy is one aspect of it, but it's not the only aspect. Now, therapists of course promote their own success rates and their own methodologies and that's on them. What we do in this podcast is to kind of present the different schools of thought for people to learn, to grow and to choose for themselves, right? We're not spoon feeding anyone. What I do is I encourage you to read, to reflect, ask questions, to question things, and to not take things for granted. And the people interviewed so far, in season one, and inshaAllah in season two, and in the future seasons, they have had their own success and failure stories and that is completely normal. And as you could tell, in season one, we have explored together the works of Joseph Nicolosi, Richard Cohen, Janelle Hallman, Van Den Aardweg, and others. Many things will resonate with you, and they will give you lots of insights and help, others you might disagree with. That's completely healthy, and we're human. I agree with some things, and I disagree with others. Nothing is going to be 100% congruent with us, right? Heck, I even disagree with many of my own brothers and sisters who experience SSA, and they even disagree with me, that's completely fine, that's just how it is, right? We take what helps us, and whenever doesn't, we just leave it. And that's fine, right? What I always tell people, don't be afraid to push back and question things. Don't take things that you hear for granted. You are your own person, and you formulate your own conclusions. Be open minded, but also be critical of what you hear. Even if none of it makes sense to you, that's your life, your choices, your prerogative, but also keep an open mind and don't knock it until you try it, as they say. In other words, you read, you reflect, maybe even try such approaches and therapies and see if they work for you. You be the judge of it once you do that. One important point that I'd like to mention at this point, especially for listeners who do not experience same-sex attractions, and who hear about therapy and think that it's the "all-time cure", you know, that's not fair either. Nowadays, you find people online or in real life, who say something like, "Oh, well, people with SSA, they should go to therapy, and that's it. That's their solution. That's their "medicine", so to speak. They don't have an excuse. And if it doesn't work for them, that's on them." Well, that's not okay. The matter is very deep, and it's multifaceted, and it's different from one person to another, as we said. So painting everyone with the same brush is not acceptable either. And not only this, but whatever the differences, the fact remains that, whatever those people, you know, those individuals who do not experience SSA, what they probably think the outcome of therapy should be, which is, you know, we go into therapy for however long, and out you come a completely "heterosexual" man or woman, having been once and for all "cured" of your SSA - that doesn't happen. That's not the way it works. So people need to understand this. If you hear of anyone or you have anyone in your life who actually thinks like that, please do tell them that that's not the way it works. And people need to understand that. Again, therapy is just one aspect, one piece of the puzzle that may get us to better versions of ourselves, regardless of what happens to our SSA. And again, I believe in holistic approaches, if therapy is going to be pushed down our throats as the "one and only", that's completely unfair. We have to have support systems in our lives. We have to have proper friendships, we have to read books, we have to exercise, we have to eat healthy, we have to have God in our lives. We have to work on becoming better people, emotionally, spiritually, physically and mentally. That's what I mean by a holistic approach. And that's just like we're supposed to be anyway, right? Whether we have SSA or not. Simple.

39:20  
Recently, as part of the discussion, a brother shared with us this line of therapy that is developed by Mark Yarhouse and Warren Throckmorton. I thought I'd mentioned this as part of our comprehensive approach in presenting material on the podcast. Now, there is this kind of therapy, which is called "sexual identity therapy", or SIT. The framework was developed after those two professionals dealt with people with SSA, who did not experience as much success in their change effort as they were led to believe was possible. So those individuals were discouraged and some would frame their experiences in an all-or-nothing way, in a sense, such that they either changed their orientation completely, or they were "gay", and "I just have to live my lifestyle and whatever happens happens". They did not feel another option was available to them. So in a sense, there is kind of either reorientation therapy versus gay affirmative therapy in those people's minds. Whereas SIT, which is sexual identity therapy is a third model. One of the developers, Mark Yarhouse, has written about this in detail, and I will share all of the links, inshaAllah, in the episode description, so feel free to check it out. Again, it's up to you. This is part of us presenting a comprehensive approach. So maybe this could help you. That's up to you. What basically Mark Yarhouse has written, he says, "What's interesting is that these are two polarized positions in the model of therapy offered to sexual minorities today. The whole purpose of developing SIT, or sexual identity therapy, was to offer an alternative to these two polarized positions. It is interesting to me that those most invested in this debate will not allow a third option to develop. Rather, they appear to need to frame the debate in the two models they know. The focus in SIT is sexual identity and not sexual orientation. Again, much of my work is with people who have tried to change and had modest success with it. And so they are looking for other meaningful ways to grow and develop, and sexual identity, as focused on in this framework, is one way to do that, particularly for those who focus on other aspects of who they are as a person. In other words, SIT is a client-centered and identity-focused approach to navigate sexual identity questions or concerns. It has been contrasted to reorientation therapy and gay affirmative therapy. It is based on the idea of helping people reach congruence, so that they live and identify themselves in a way that is consistent with their own beliefs and values. And the idea is that sexual attractions or orientation may or may not change, but the overall emphasis is on identity". Now, remember the the topic of identity, we addressed this back in season one, episode 5, from kind of a slightly different angle, when we said that we contrast the gay identity versus the identity of us as "I am a Muslim, I am a man or a woman and I experience same-sex attractions. My attractions do not define me as a man or a woman". That is not part of my identity. But anyway, this is just kind of a throwback to when we kind of discussed this from a non-essentialist Islamic perspective. Now Yarhouse writes again, he says, "My involvement with SIT was to explore a way of doing therapy that provided these people with a professional approach that would respect their beliefs and values, and would allow for a direction or trajectory that was meaningful, even if their orientation did not change. Many people who came to see me, at that time, where conservative Christians, and many at the end of what was developing into SIT, chose not to identify publicly or privately as "gay", rather, they formed a primary identity around other aspects of who they were as a person, such as their religious beliefs and values". And again, actually, this is also something we spoke about in episode 5, which is having our primary identity on other aspects of what make us us righ: being Muslim, being a man or a woman, my temperament, my personality, my aspirations, my hopes and dreams, and all of these things. And religious beliefs and values are front and center, of course. So what is SIT, what is sexual identity therapy? What does it involve? It revolves around four central concepts that came from an early concept paper and subsequent research that have been developed by these two professionals. Those four central aspects are the following: 1. A distinction between same-sex attraction, homosexual orientation and a gay identity, 2. Weighted aspects of identity, 3. Attributional search for sexual identity, and 4. Congruence. So what do these four central concepts refer to? The first point was having a distinction between same-sex attraction, homosexual orientation and a gay identity. So the idea here is that "more people report experiencing same-sex attraction or having a homosexual orientation than the number of people who identify as gay". And he goes into detail in the framework that orientation, sexual orientation per se, it involves sexual as well as emotional attractions, romantic attachments, erotic arousals, and so on. So it's more than just those attractions, whereas being "gay" for example, is a "unique sociocultural phenomenon", as we have said before, "it is a self-defining identity label that not all people who experience same-sex attractions adopt". So the first thing that he does is he kind of distinguishes between these things, and he says that "such a distinction creates room for using descriptive language while exploring identity considerations". Most people that he works with choose to describe their attractions, rather than embrace a gay identity. And this is actually what we do in this podcast and what we do in our support groups, we don't talk and refer to ourselves in terms of the "gay" identity, but we talk about our own attractions, "We experience same-sex attractions". The second point is the weighted aspects of identity and by that he means that people consider many factors when they make decisions about public and private sexual identity labels. So what are those aspects of identity? These include biological sex, they include gender identity, they include attractions, intentions, behaviors, and beliefs and values. So, "People often decide that one or more of these aspects of identity are really important to them", such as, for example, one's behavior if they want to choose chastity, for example, or their own beliefs and values, for example, our own morality as Muslims, or others as Christians, or Jews and so on. So those different aspects of identity are not equal, but in some sense, some aspects are more important to us and carry more weight than other aspects, right? And these aspects are given greater weight. Now the third point is that the therapist joins people on what is referred to as this attributional search for identity. In other words they explore with the client, the meaning that they make out of the fact that they are attracted to the same sex. In this case, "It's not assumed that the attractions are the result of childhood sexual abuse or biological predisposition or parent-child relationships or any other particular theories. Rather, the discussion revolves on how to make meaning out of these attractions. How do the clients themselves make meaning out of the fact that they are attracted to the same sex? Many people say those theories [you know, on the genesis of SSA], some will talk about the concept of the "Fall" as the cause of their attractions to the same sex", and this is a Christian understanding of man's fall from Grace into a world brokenness and sin, through the sin of our primordial parents who are Adam and Eve, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon them. So, that is from a Christian perspective, for example. So, how do you find meaning in the fact that you have same-sex attractions? Number four and the final concept is congruence. So, that means to help people line up their own behavior or identity with their own beliefs and values. And he says that he has found this to be "a natural result of the first three concepts". Now, of course, with every model of therapy, there are praises and there are critiques. It has happened with, of course, reorientation therapy, which is a completely different subject. This has happened also with reparative and reintegrative therapy, and there are also praises and critiques when it comes to sexual identity therapy, SIT, as well. One point of critique that comes to mind is, for example, that, as you recall, again, in episode 11, when reintegrative therapy was discussed, the idea was that it's not about changing one's sexual orientation, so it doesn't fall under the umbrella of reorientation therapy, but it's rather dealing with one's traumas and personal issues that may be associated with SSA, so kind of lumping this under reorientation therapy would be inaccurate. But then again, sexual identity therapy may be an option for those who tried reintegrative or reparative therapy, for an ample amount of time, and have not found benefit in their own individual cases. So again, the whole idea of presenting this framework is for people to read and reflect and think for themselves and see what works for them personally. And again, I will add references to this framework in the episode description, so make sure to check them out, if you are interested.

50:04  
As a recap, we said that therapy on its own is deficient, and we need spiritual, emotional, mental and physical work as well. We need Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, we need our Islamic values and worship. We need support from like-minded brothers and sisters, we have to read and we have to learn. We need love and belonging, right? But all in slow steps, of course. All in due time, no pressure! You will come across many different ideologies, many different schools of thought. Some make sense. Others don't. Those that make sense may resonate with you to a greater or lesser extent, and that's fine. Nothing is perfect 100% except for Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. So take what works for you. It is your story, your experiences, your narrative. I hope it's clear by now! And it follows to not put all our eggs in one basket, as they say. Don't put all of your expectations in one place. That sets you up for failure. Like "if therapy doesn't work, there's no hope". It's like black or white thinking. No, there is hope elsewhere. Some people tried therapy and it did wonders for them. Others didn't benefit as much. Some went to what is known as Journey Into Manhood (JIM) weekends, and we will discuss this, inshaAllah, in this season, and many have had intense transformations. Others, not as much. Some experienced useful transformations through support and mentorship, others through reading and having close friendships. Again, whatever works for you is what ultimately matters. You are the one leading your own life. And finally, it is you who define your goal at the end. Personally, what I tell people is always this: if your criteria of success is to have 100% opposite-sex attractions and 0% same-sex attractions, that may or may not happen. If your criteria for success is to get married and have kids, that may or may not happen. But if your criteria for success is to get to a better place: mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually, and to be at peace in your own skin, and with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, that can definitely be attainable, inshaAllah, regardless of what happens to your SSA. And that's the whole point, right? I've repeated this throughout the episode, just to get the point across, I hope it makes sense right now, I hope that the point is delivered. There are also different examples that you hear about. So through one or many of these approaches that I've given, some people did overcome their lustful thoughts and attractions towards other men, and it just becomes a matter of admiring other people's beauty and moving on. So that is success according to some people, and that's wonderful. Some were able to overcome their lusts and triggers to a large degree, and then whatever was left could have been controlled according to their individual capacities. That might have been their criteria for success, that's wonderful; if it works out for them, beautiful, alhamdulillah! Some got married, and are able to be intimate with their wives - wonderful, alhamdulillah! Others devoted their lives to celibacy, and they're happy - great, alhamdulillah! Again, whether through therapy alone, or through therapy and other things, it varies. And then another point that is worth keeping in mind is, as I mentioned before, the immediate result versus the long-term result. Sometimes we see benefits during and immediately after, for example, therapy or Journey Into Manhood, or what have you. But then things change, and some people may find themselves relapsing or getting back to square one. That's why it's important to supplement all of this with support groups, friendships, and keep up the necessary maintenance work. All of these aspects have to be taken into account. So again, don't force other people's expectations on you, and be open-minded and flexible about whatever happens with you, and where you end up, in terms of your attractions, your marital status, etc. It's all up to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala in the end, right? What matters is to lead a life that is true to Him and His Deen, inshaAllah. So step by step, take it easy on yourself, breathe through it, smile. We're all in this together. We take it day by day, and Allah will take care of everything, inshaAllah.

54:49  
Another question, or more of a remark that I get is, sometimes people think that I have it all figured out or I'm a reference in the world of SSA. I'm not, I swear I'm not. I don't have it all figured out. I go through my ups and downs. But again, the whole point of me doing this podcast and talking to you is not for me to tell people that I have it all figured out, or I am over my SSA, or you know, I have all of the information and I'm here to share it with you. Of course not. That's not the point. The point is, what I am trying to do is to tell people, "I am on the same journey as you. I am on the same path. We go through ups and downs, we lose track, we have our moments of success and our moments of failure, but we learn and keep striving and moving to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala". I keep learning day by day. I have so many things I don't know. I am reading, I am interacting. There are tons of people who have emailed me, with whom I've spoken, and I have learned so much, and I have changed so many ideas in my life. There's so many people who have helped me during my lowest and during my highest, alhamdulillah. And I'm so grateful for that. Am I a reference? Of course not. And some people think that I'm not relatable, because I have my life figured out, or I am at a good place. Well, honestly, I would tell you that I was in my lowest a couple of years ago. And it was a very dark place. And I know so many other brothers and sisters who were in my shoes, who are now in a much better place. We are in different stages along our path, the path leading to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. What matters is that we move forward. You might find yourself in a dark place, but inshaAllah things will work out for you at some point, and you will find yourself helping other people. That doesn't necessarily mean that you haven't been through darkness. It means that you know what it feels, you have experienced it, and now you are in a much better place to be able to help other people, and to take them by the hand and show them the way. And we all help each other. No one has it 100% figured out. This is dunya. This is a place of trials and tribulations, and no one is guaranteed anything. As long as we are still breathing, there is a room for improvement, and we shouldn't take anything for granted, because we never know what will happen in this life. Right? And may Allah help us, may Allah keep us steadfast, and may Allah allow us to die with full conviction in Him, and in his Deen, on la ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadun Rasul Allah, and may He resurrect us and join us in Jannah. That's all we care about, right? So we have our different stories and different experiences, and what matters is that we're here for each other. We're on the same path, inshaAllah, and we're all here for each other, towards Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

58:04  
Now you might be wondering, "What is the title of this episode: pause, rewind and play?" These three words have many references. The literal meaning of it is that, there are many realizations that we get during this podcast, during the different episodes. So it's worth listening and relistening. I've had some brothers and sisters email me that they had to listen to some episodes more than once, when they listen the second or the third time, they have realized a lot of things. So it's all about literally pausing, rewinding and playing again, so that, you know, you get the benefit, you kind of understand those ideas, you reflect, you allow yourself time to kind of reflect and to assess for yourself and to see where you stand in terms of all of these different issues that are discussed. Also, "pause, rewind and play" is a reference to one being open to entertaining other points of views, particularly those points of views that go against our own, and then to see what works for us. So we take a pause, we reflect, before we reply or attack another person, we revise, and then we move forward. There's always so much to learn. The more we learn, the more we realize how much we don't know. There is a beautiful quote by Al-Imam Al-Shafi'i, may Allah be pleased with him, he said, and this is a rough translation from Arabic, "Whenever fate teaches me, it shows me the limits of my cognizance. Even if my learning did not increase, it gave me knowledge of my ignorance". So the point here is that, the more we learn, the more we realize how much we don't know - there is much more to even learn. So the quest for knowledge is a never ending journey. And with regards to the ego, sometimes we need to question things. The ego takes certain things for granted. It's our comfort zone. It's a chance to kind of, you know, teach our ego that we need to question certain things that we take for granted. To overcome our ego to step outside the comfort zone. It's not an easy thing, of course, but it's totally worth it. Being flexible, being open, being willing to entertain other people's points of views, willing to engage and to grow. And also, in saying, "pause, rewind and play", there is a spiritual reference. We have to take a pause to internalize a lot of what we learn on a daily basis, to take a pause away from the noise and people, to be alone with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, to reflect on what we have learned, what He, subhanahu wa ta'ala, has made us learn, how far we have come, where we are in our life, and then we hit play and we move forward, inshaAllah.

1:01:08  
So, as I said at the beginning of this episode, we have lots of goodies prepared in season 2, inshaAllah. We will be talking about the struggle with same-sex attractions from a spiritual lens, and we will be discussing so many spiritual topics together, inshaAllah. We're going to be talking about the love and the mercy of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. We are going to fall in love with Him, inshaAllah, all over again. We're going to be talking about trials and tribulations and hardships. We will be discussing the wisdoms behind them. We'll talk about the nature of the world, the stories of the giants before us, the lessons that we learn from them. We're going to be talking about surrender and submission, another way of looking at la ilaha illa Allah. We're going to be talking about gifts that come with our struggle with same-sex attractions, our own talents and the Divine openings that we have. We're going to be talking about pure love for the sake of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. And then how to get back to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, how all of this ties with our struggle with SSA. And we'll talk about the moral side of the struggle, temptation and sin, and all of these things. We will talk about the story of Adam and Eve (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon them), the story of their struggle with Satan, temptation and descent to Earth, and then repentance and going back to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. We will be looking at the story of the people of Lut (PBUH), how similar and different we are in our struggle with same-sex attractions, and we will be talking about desires and shahawat, tawbah (repentance) and spiritual awakenings, and we will be tying all of this together with our struggle with same-sex attractions and our path towards Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. And towards the end of the season, there's going to be a guest speaker, just like Br. Sinan was our guest speaker in season 1 when he shared with us his story, there is going to be another guest speaker sharing with us their story, inshaAllah, towards the end of the season.

1:03:25 
As always, you can email us on awaybeyondtherainbow@gmail.com, and we will get back to you as soon as we can, inshaAllah. And as a reminder, you can always listen to us on our website, awaybeyondtherainbow.buzzsprout.com, and there again, you will find the transcripts for the episodes, and all of the links for any external references In each episode in the description box. And you can also listen to us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google podcast, Stitcher, iHeart Radio, and TuneIn Radio. And as usual, we are back every Friday at 12pm GMT with a brand new episode, and in next week's episode we will start with the series on spirituality, and we will be talking about the love and mercy of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, and how all of this ties to our struggle with SSA, inshaAllah. I look forward to talking to you next week. Until then, I wish you a blessed week ahead, stay healthy and stay safe and I'll talk to you soon. This has been Waheed Jensen in "A Way Beyond the Rainbow", assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta'ala wa barakatuh.