A Way Beyond the Rainbow

#33 - On Support Systems: "Joel 2:25"

October 30, 2020 Jeremy Schwab, Alan Alencar, João and Waheed Jensen Season 3 Episode 7
A Way Beyond the Rainbow
#33 - On Support Systems: "Joel 2:25"
Chapters
0:38
Episode Introduction
2:16
A Little Bit About Jeremy
5:49
A Little Bit About Alan
17:27
What "Joel 2:25" Stands For
18:58
How Joel 2:25 Evolved Throughout the Years
20:50
Services Provided
23:02
Joel 2:25 in Brazil
30:13
Other International Services
31:28
Logistics and Funding
34:11
Admission and Verification Processes
35:36
Managing Negative Experiences
46:20
Positive Personal Experiences
50:23
Services for Women
51:04
Demographics of Members
54:52
Success Stories
58:44
Final Messages from Jeremy and Alan
1:02:05
Ending Remarks
A Way Beyond the Rainbow
#33 - On Support Systems: "Joel 2:25"
Oct 30, 2020 Season 3 Episode 7
Jeremy Schwab, Alan Alencar, João and Waheed Jensen

In this episode, Jeremy Schwab from the US and Alan Alencar from Brazil join me as guest speakers and talk to us about "Joel 2:25" and the international initiatives associated with the organization.

What does "Joel 2:25" stand for? How has "Joel 2:25" evolved throughout the years, and what are some of the services provided for individuals who experience same-sex attractions? How can one be verified and admitted into the different support groups available? These and other questions are explored in this episode.

Links to resources mentioned in the episode:

- Joel 2:25 webpage

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In this episode, Jeremy Schwab from the US and Alan Alencar from Brazil join me as guest speakers and talk to us about "Joel 2:25" and the international initiatives associated with the organization.

What does "Joel 2:25" stand for? How has "Joel 2:25" evolved throughout the years, and what are some of the services provided for individuals who experience same-sex attractions? How can one be verified and admitted into the different support groups available? These and other questions are explored in this episode.

Links to resources mentioned in the episode:

- Joel 2:25 webpage

Waheed  00:38
Assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta’ala wa barakatuh, and welcome to a brand new episode of “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, this podcast series dedicated to Muslims experiencing same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and Islam. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. Joining me today to talk about the organization Joel 2:25 is Jeremy Schwab from the US and Alan Alencar from Brazil, and joining Alan is his friend João, who is going to be translating from Portuguese to English. This episode has been recorded over a Zoom call involving the four of us. I hope that you guys enjoy this episode, and let's get started.

Waheed  01:30
Hello, Jeremy. Hello, Alan. How are you?

Jeremy  01:33
Great, good to see you.

Waheed  01:34
Nice to see you too.

Alan (translated)  01:50
It's a great pleasure to be with you, and Jeremy and I are here to help you with what's needed.

Waheed  01:59
Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. So, today, we will be talking to the audience about Joel 2:25, how it started, what are its mission and vision and all of the activities that are associated with organization. So if I may start with Jeremy first, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you have come to where you are right now?

Jeremy  02:21
Yes. Well, I lived in the gay lifestyle for about 12 to 14 years. Basically, starting in high school, I came out of the closet. And at that time, at least here in the United States, it had become very fashionable to live the gay life. And, even in my high school, you know, it was pretty well welcomed. I never felt comfortable with the life, though, because I never really felt that it was the right choice, even though I tried to convince myself of that for years and had several long-term gay relationships. I just found it extremely destructive the entire time, it seemed like it was deepening the emotional wounds that I had, instead of healing them. And, so, in 2009, I had a start of a conversion. And I was actually at Disney World for their Gay Pride Week at the time with my live-in boyfriend, and just realizing that I didn't like where my life was going. And so I started praying for answers and for help. When I came back, I discovered Dr. Nicolosi, I'd seen his name before and heard about him on TV before. And I figured, “Well, if anybody could help me, maybe he could.” So I reached out to him, and that started the process, I started working with his son who’s a therapist and gradually got out of the gay life that I was living. And I started finding a lot of healing as well. Much more healing, relational healing. I felt like the therapy was really making breakthroughs for me, it wasn't an instant cure, but it definitely changed the way I related to other people. It changed the way I felt about myself. I felt like it was really beneficial. And then, after a couple of years, I noticed that a lot of the resources that had helped me were being hidden, because of the media or other people that just didn't want anybody to know about it, and so I started just a small group at my house of people that were interested. And we started using some of the books and workbooks I'd found. And, initially, I didn't plan on starting an organization, but I had some friends online that mentioned they didn't have anything like that where they lived. One of them was in Africa. And so I invited him to join us through Skype one day, and he really appreciated participating that way. So I started inviting him more frequently. And he mentioned it to a few other people, and then we just started getting lots of requests. And that's when we started doing the online groups and started Joel 2:25 from there.

Waheed  05:45
That's perfect. And we'll be talking more about this as we go along. Alan, the same question to you, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you have come to where you are right now? 

Alan (translated)  05:56
It's a pleasure to be here with you again. I’m 39 and I live in Sao Paolo, the biggest city in Brazil. I’m going to tell you a bit about my story. Since my childhood, I had some involvements with some of my cousins and was abused by an older person. When I was 14, I had a strong experience with God. I never identified myself with the “gay identity”. There was a huge confusion in my mind, because I had to suffer alone because all of those things. I didn't have any support. When I had contact with God and my religion, I started to live an intense life of chastity for more than 10 years, without any kind of involvement with anyone and without masturbation. I had never had any kind of problem with pornography. But when I finally got to the age of 32, I had a great question in front of me. I was living an asexual life, but I knew that I had sexuality - not having sex was impossible. I came a long way in terms of my own self-understanding, but one of my areas of life was blocked. So I prayed to God and asked Him to help me find my real vocation as a human being. So, that's when I started to search hard for it, and then I find out about recovery [reparative] therapy, and a series of positive things came to me. I was introduced to Joel 2:25 by a friend of mine. After that, I found out about the traumas that I had inside of me, and that there was no gay gene. Basically, these are the beliefs of Joel 2:25, and I fell in love with all of it. So, Jeremy invited me to take control of the group in the Portuguese language, and I hadn’t known Jeremy at that point. It was a challenge, and I asked Jeremy for some time to pray [about it]. So, two months later, I started to share with other people I knew were suffering with SSA. After that, I went to a Protestant TV channel and told my story and how all of that had helped me. I am Catholic, so I went to a Catholic TV as well and told my story there. Then I went to another Protestant TV, as a result, Jeremy and I started receiving many emails, and many men started to search for us. The majority of those men didn’t believe or know the perspective of changing [healing/ recovery/ improvement]. So, we started to create a process of deconstruction of the lies that are told about ourselves. I started reading lots of books that talk about this theme, like those of Nicolosi, van den Aardweg, Richard Cohen, and Luca di Tolvi, which helped me in some way. When I found out about Joel 2:25, I got very curious, so I read Jeremy’s entire blog in only two days. I didn't know English, so I used Google Translate. So, Jeremy's blog led me to Jeremy and Joel 2:25. All of this nurtured me in a very intense manner. This is basically a bit of my story.

Waheed  17:21
So, to learn more about Joel 2:25, I'm going to be asking Jeremy a couple of questions. So the first question that comes to mind is, what does “Joel 2:25” stand for? I'm guessing that's a verse from the Bible, so can you tell us more about that?

Jeremy  17:36
Yes, it's an old verse from the Book of Joel. And, at the time, the context is that people had suffered a great deal from a variety of locusts and all kinds of insects that have basically destroyed their crops and led them to starvation and destroyed several years of their lives. And the verse basically is where God is telling them, that he promises that He is going to restore everything that the locusts have eaten, that He is going to restore their lives, restore the years that the locusts have eaten. And so that kind of struck me as an important part of this journey that, especially in my case, I had seen that I had wasted 10 years of my life chasing things that had never fulfilled me, that only made things worse for me. And, when I started returning to the truth and to seek out this healing, I found a lot of restoration, I found that things that took me years to destroy could still be restored quickly, and I found a lot of restoration from that. And so, that was kind of the inspiration for that name.

Waheed  18:55
That’s very inspiring. Thank you for sharing that. So you said that you and a friend were talking, and then that's how the idea for Joel 2:25 came about. So can you walk us through how that journey evolved? How did that become an organization and your role in that organization as well?

Jeremy  19:14
Yes, initially, it was just supposed to be a small group that I felt could help reach people that were on the same journey and kind of build that community. And then, when I first started talking to a few other people online and realized that it was not just my city, but everywhere else that people were seeking help, we started, kind of, initially, I didn't think of starting a new organization, I was just trying to support what was already out there. And I found myself using - I didn't make a lot of money, but the money I had from my job, my regular job, I was using that to try to sponsor others for retreats and for things like that. Of course, I didn't have much to do with that, but a friend of mine also mentioned that if I started an organization, I could raise money as a charity, and we could use that to help more people. And that sort of gave us the idea to do that, create that legal status. Now I donate into that myself, and then from there, we can use that to help others. We don't have a whole lot that we can work with, but we try to get what we can to help support some people for therapy. And then we have a few therapists that will work with people for a discount, and we're able to subsidize that for them as well.

Waheed  20:50
Can you tell us more about the services that Joel 2:25 offers, whether it's online or face-to-face? Can you walk us through it for people who don't know about what the organization offers to individuals who experience same-sex attractions? 

Jeremy  21:05
Yeah, initially, I mean, primarily, I'd say it's the community and the support group, and also a free exchange of information, as well. We try to find out about other resources, whether it's therapists or books, or retreats like “Journey into Manhood”, or other things, we try to share that as much as possible and make that available. So if it's not available in a particular language, and there's people that need it, we'll try to find ways to get it translated. And then there's people that need help with transportation to go somewhere, so we can try to facilitate that. We also have, you know, weekly support groups in a few different languages. We have one in English, and, of course, we have several which Alan leads in Portuguese. We have a few in Spanish and German, I believe still. So it’s still not always perfectly organized, but we're trying to make sure that we reach the needs that are out there that we find out about.

Waheed  22:21
And as Alan was telling us, he reached out to you after reading your website of Joel 2:25, or the blog that you had set up at the time, and then he got in touch with you, and then he started his own branch of Joel 2:25 in Brazil, correct?

Jeremy  22:38
Yes, that's correct. Yeah, we had tried to start something in Portuguese for a while before that, it never really took off. But then when Alan came around, it really blossomed, and he was able to really lead it to reach a lot of stuff.

Waheed  23:02
Since we're talking about you, Alan, let me ask you this question. After you had set up Joel 2:25 in Brazil, how did it first start? How did you reach out to people, and what were the services that you gave to the community in Brazil? 

Alan (translated)  23:20
Currently, we are in the entire country of Brazil, which is the fifth largest country in the world, as you already know. We have people from all over Brazil and all the states in here. So, most of the guys started to know about the ministry through the interviews that I used to give to the Catholic and Protestant TVs. I keep on receiving lots of emails from women, men and from parents searching for help. Joel 2:25 in Brazil is a ministry that helps men regardless of belief, whether Christian or non-Christian, because we have the interest of showing people and letting them know who they are in their real essence. So, we started to organize virtual gatherings, and we are basically this way. One day of the week, we have a prayer gathering. Other days, we have a gathering to help people recover from masturbation and pornography. On Sundays, we have the main gathering, where we have someone who speaks to the members; it can be someone who has already experienced the gay lifestyle, a therapist, or someone who can help people in terms of themes related to sexuality. Normally, when people come to me, I would send them to a psychologist. Nowadays, basically, all the men of the ministry have some support from psychologists. We also have a parents’ group to help parents deal with the problems of their kids. The gatherings are not so common, because we still don't have too many people to help in this work, so we need to grow more and more in order to help people further. During this time, I found out that my life’s sense and purpose is to give sense and purpose to the lives of other people, as Viktor Frankl says. I am almost at the end of my psychology studies at university, and I intend to work as a recovery therapist and professional.

Waheed  30:13
What other branches do you have around the world? I know that, on Facebook, there are different Facebook groups for Joel 2:25 that are in different languages. But can you mention some of the countries where the ministry or the organization is involved? 

Jeremy  30:26
Yes, we have groups in Poland, and then we have a lot of individuals that are spread across a lot of other countries. We've worked on getting a few groups started in a few of the countries in Africa like Benin, and we know a handful people now in Nigeria, and Australia is our newest one, we've grown with the group there, they’re spread across different parts of Australia, they meet through video conference, and, because of the time zone, it works pretty well for a lot of the Asian countries. So we have that every Sunday night, Australia time. We’ve got a lot of people spread across the United States, and some of them are participating in local groups that are separate from us, but we try to let them know about what's available in their area, if we can find out about it.

Waheed  31:27
Beautiful. And one question that I forgot to ask at the beginning, how old is Joel 2:25? When did it first start? 

Jeremy  31:33
I think officially about seven years ago now. Seven years. We tried to start a group before that, like the first time, I'd send out an invite to the people I knew that might be interested, and nobody actually showed up. So, I just had a meeting with my cat. And that was about it. But then, after that, we started growing from there. 

Waheed  32:01
Well I’m glad eventually people started showing up. Okay, so as Alan was saying that this organization is not just catered towards Christians. Obviously, it comes from a Christian background, but it's not just catered for Christians, you have people from different religions, or even non-religious individuals, correct?

Jeremy  32:22
Yes, that's correct. Yeah, we try to support them wherever they're coming from. We don't differentiate. 

Waheed  32:29
A lot of people might be asking at this point, so how do you find funding to do all of these activities and to fund people for therapy, retreats, or whatever else that they need? Where do all of these, you know, donations or funds come from? 

Jeremy  32:48
Um, well, I'm still trying to find those actually. But, mostly, right now, I mean, I tend to donate a lot to it myself to try to keep it going. But then, a few people, like my dad joins our prayer groups, and he donates every other month or so. And then we kind of have about 20 or 30 donors that donate sporadically, either once a year or every month, a small amount that helps add up over time. We try to keep a flow for everything else, if we can.

Waheed  33:28
So, it's mostly individual efforts and trying to find anyone in the community that's interested in helping out, which I imagine would be very challenging, of course, but you guys are doing a great job. So that's wonderful.

Jeremy  33:40
Yeah, there's a lot of - I think the main part is because it's become so what we call “politically incorrect” here in the US, that some people that would like to donate are afraid to, because they're afraid they'll be targeted or something. Yeah, some people donate anonymously when they can, and things like that. 

Waheed  34:11
So, my next question to Jeremy would be, if anyone is interested in joining the organization and getting help wherever they may be in the world, what is the process? How do they get admitted, how do they become a member? Is there a specific admission or verification process? How does that function?

Jeremy  34:29
Well, they could start by going to our website jeol225.org, and on our main page, there's links to see the page in different languages. We've got parts of it translated into Arabic, as well as some of the others, Farsi as well. And they can email us from there. Typically, we try to get them to sign our confidentiality agreement before they join one of our groups, just to make sure that they agreed to keep everybody's information confidential and respect their privacy.

Waheed  35:09
So it's fairly easy, as long as they're verified, and they sign a confidentiality agreement, they would be in. And there are lots of resources that they can access from the members area.

Jeremy  35:20
Yes, we try to find out what might be available in their area, if there's other groups that are working in that area, you know, where they live, and what they might already have access to, we try to share that with them as well.

Waheed  35:35
So, seeing how, you know, Jeremy, you're in the States, and you're involved in this organization, you're heading this organization, you're doing all this work. And, obviously, you're outspoken in the media and you're a public figure. And also, Alan in Brazil, he’s doing the same thing. So pretty much it's “politically incorrect” to be adopting this position, as you were saying, and obviously, there's going to be or has been a lot of negative backlash from the media and other people. So how have you dealt with this?

Jeremy  36:08
Well, mostly, I mean, I found even though there's a lot of negative attention, there's also a lot of people have come out to support us when they find out what we're doing. And that's helpful as well. People that, in the past, would have been afraid to mention that I had the struggle. Of course, now they know, but they're actually very supportive and very encouraging as well. So, I mean, it's definitely - the challenge, I think, is mainly to get the resources, like we had several of the books that we've translated and had them available on Kindle for a lot of different people, because it's very hard to ship books to certain parts of the world. And they could access through Kindle and read the things. I actually recorded the audio book of Dr. Nicolosi’s work. And so we had all that on the Amazon platform, but last year, gay activists found out about it and were really angry, so Amazon took it all down. It's things like that that are more concerning now, because it seems like it keeps getting more intense. Like our Facebook page, we have 47,000 people that have clicked to follow that or to get information from that. And so I’ve had to keep it at a low profile right now, because I've heard that several other groups have had their pages taken down. I've had to be careful. In the past we’d try to promote it, but now, we're trying to keep it contained, just so that we don't attract too much attention. And I was in London last week and met with one of our guys, he also leads a group there, and he mentioned that they just had a small bank account at one of the banks, and they were told that they had to close the account, because the bank won’t allow them to have a bank account there. Because it's considered, you know, a “hate group” as they call it. Fortunately, that hasn't happened to us here yet. Yeah, there's always that fear.

Alan (translated)  38:28
So, I tried to be, since the very beginning, connected to Jeremy, how I can do the work in a better way. But here, in Brazil, we have a very peculiar culture, so some things have to be different. So, when people search for me, basically, they send me an email, and I ask them to send me a link of their Facebook page. I then go through a checklist of that Facebook account, to check that it's not a troll or fake account. We don’t approve Facebook accounts which are recent, or where you can see trees, sun, rainbows, and things like that. I’m always careful about it. And, after that, I make an appointment with the person and we have a telephone call. Each [potential] member of the ministry has to attend this 1-hour interview, where I get to know the person briefly and offer suggestions on how the ministry can help him. Only after all of that will the potential member be added to the Facebook group. So it’s practically impossible that someone can do any illegal thing. I’m always careful, because I have to think about myself and every other person that is already in that group. My name and the name of Joel 2:25 are sealed. We didn't have any kind of problem with media, because we had never gone to secular or mainstream media. I was already invited to conduct an interview with the biggest Brazilian TV channel, but I declined it, of course. That channel is very progressive/propagandist, and I thought about the consequences I’d have to face by joining to this channel and granting the interview. So we didn’t have any problems.

Waheed  43:13
That's a very complex process where you make sure that nothing is going to happen. I mean, this is wonderful.  

Jeremy  43:23
I need to learn more from Alan. 

Waheed  43:34
So, the question to Jeremy would be, have you had any experience with, you know, members who would join Joel 2:25 in the past who were trolls, or who didn't abide by the rules and ended up causing problems? And if so, how did you deal with them?

Jeremy  43:50
It's been a variety of things. There have been some that I've noticed that really were sincere when they joined, and then kind of fell away. I've noticed that there's some people that tend to be in cycles, where they go from one extreme or another. So, I've had to be careful about, you know, having them in the group with other people, sometimes. There's other people that are just completely gone away. And then, some of them, I tend to - even if I have to remove them from the group, if they don’t cause any other problems with the group, they're just kind of on their own path, I'll stay connected with them personally on Facebook, but I might put them on a separate list that filters things, so they don't see all of my own posts, or they'll see some of them but not all of it, just so I can keep some information private. And a lot of those people do end up coming back eventually. So, sometimes they'll go into that life, or they'll go into, they'll get caught up in some kind of relationship that they think is so perfect, and a year later, they're asking for help again to come out of that. Somebody recently here had legally married another man, and has to go through the whole, like, divorce process and all that. But yeah, he's, you know, it’s more now to try to get help to overcome it. And so we try to leave that opening for them if they want, in the future. Unless the person is, you know, being a predator towards people in the group, I tend to try to be as open as possible, you know, if they want resources in the future. A lot of times they do, so it helps. And it's also encouraging, as well, to see them come back. It's discouraging to see people leave, but it's encouraging to see the same number of people coming back usually.

Waheed  46:19
Of course, that’s beautiful. What has Joel 2:25 given you personally as Jeremy, how have you benefited from it? And then the same question to Alan after that.

Jeremy  46:31
OK. Well, I think, in a lot of ways, it's helped me as having this community, and it's been an opportunity to grow a lot as well, and I didn't intend to become a leader of a group or anything at first. And I wouldn't necessarily consider myself the best qualified for that. But it's definitely helped to have that encouragement, you know, when there's a struggle or when there's just a sense of feeling, I guess, discouraged, it's a chance to really get back out there. And, in fact, because we have so many different groups now, sometimes I’ll join a group where I don't know anybody else in there, and they see me as just one of them, and I'm able to just participate as a regular member. Sometimes that helps as well. 

Alan (translated)  47:28
Joel 2:25 has given me lots of things, like friendship, my best friend belongs to Joel, I was able to take part in Journey into Manhood (JIM), I started my own process of recovery/reparative therapy, members and I work together as brothers. Joel 2:25 doesn’t have an owner, we are a community of brothers. There is someone who's responsible to take care of and organize things, but not an owner actually. The original owner is Jeremy Schwab.

Jeremy  49:04
Not an owner, but.. One thing I would add that it's helped me with as well is, a couple of years ago, we started a prayer group. It's every day, and there's one in English, and I think one in Portuguese at least a couple times a week. But the English one is every night at 10pm my time, and my dad actually joins that as well most of the time. Even though it's just a prayer group and not a counseling session, it's been interesting, because a lot of things I would never normally talk to my dad about, even though he knows about the SSA, I never really went into detail. There have been a few times where I've called in, and it was just him and one of the other people online, and one of the guys would be just divulging a lot of things to him that I would never have said to my dad. And it was interesting hearing my dad respond with like total compassion and really, you know, supporting the guy. And it was like, “Wow, I never would have thought about that!”

Waheed  50:12
Wow, that's wonderful. I’m really happy to hear that.

Jeremy  50:14
Yeah. 

Waheed  50:23
Another question that comes to mind is, is it just tailored towards men, or are there any activities or services that can also help women with same-sex attractions?

Jeremy  50:33
Yes, we do have a women's group, and we're trying to expand on that as well. We're trying to get more resources. It's been difficult to find them, but we do have several books that are specifically for women. We did have a few counselors and therapists that were helping for women, we're trying to build that right now. We have women all over actually, but mostly in the US and a few in Europe as well.

Waheed  51:03
That's great. And in terms of demographics, you mentioned the countries that Joel 2:25 has reached out to, can you tell us a little bit about the age groups, the different age groups that are involved? And how many would you say are married versus non-married, just to give us a general overview about that?

Jeremy  51:27
Well, I’m not totally sure, probably about at least a fourth are married, maybe more. And then, there's some of them that are planning to be married or they're engaged. I don't know the percentage of that. And there's some that are older that are either widowers or have been married in the past. And then, as far as age groups, we get a few requests each year from teenagers as well. We've tried to figure out the best way to help them, because, initially, we tried to start a group, but it's difficult to really lead a group for that age. We do want to make sure that their parents are aware as well, that they talk to their parents about it. So we're working on what resources we can have there. We do have a lot that are at college age and their 20s and 30s. And then, we have some that are a lot older than that as well. So, there's always a handful of people that are in their 70s or 80s, and they lived like an active gay life up until that point, and now they're trying to find healing now at this point, so we’re trying to help them as well.

Alan (translated)  53:03
We have about a very heterogeneous group, 70% are single. Some of them are already thinking of getting married, and 30% of participation are of married men. Among them, we have protestant pastors and catholic priests. The percentage of young people until 23 years old is 2%. We are a very mature group as far as age is concerned. We are heading to our goal. 

Waheed  54:52
A lot of the listeners might be wondering; can you share with us some success stories. So this is for Jeremy first, and then for Alan, you know, stories that you would like to share with us from Joel 2:25 members that you have seen throughout the years, improvements, change in lifestyles, anything that you would like to share with us.

Jeremy  55:10
Well, overall, I've seen a lot of people have said that lives have improved, some that were already married and were kind of at that one point, about to get divorced before they started this journey, and now they feel like their marriage has been restored, and their family is really working. Others that, there's a priest a while back that was leading a celibate life, but he was close to leaving his vocation, and now he feels prepared and capable of fulfilling his role. And then, of course, my own story, I can't say that I’ve been cured or that I don't have struggles, but I will say that every aspect of my life has improved because of this work. So, even though there's some things still, it's not a linear journey where everything just gets perfect all along. But the way I interact with other people, my sense of self-esteem, confidence, my spiritual life, everything is better than it was before. So, in that sense. 

Alan (translated)  56:31
When I started my journey towards masculinity, basically, it was a process of new discoveries. I found out that I am capable of having a relationship with the opposite sex in a totally positive way, where I feel like an entire man. I am open to having a relationship with a woman, and I have faith that God will send me a woman I can be with. I’m not thinking so much about it, I believe it will happen naturally, a woman will come into my life in a natural way. I’m not so anxious about it. I would never do anything to please society or particular individuals. What is really important to me is what I know about myself and what I feel about myself. That’s the truth for me. 

Waheed  58:43
And the last question to Jeremy and Alan, let’s start with Jeremy first: any last words that you'd like to give the listeners who are listening to you today? 

Jeremy  58:54
I’d say to really trust in God, in Allah, and to be open to discovering things, discovering more about yourself, discovering more resources and opportunities for healing, and to surrender any expectations or attachments, especially attachments to things that are destructive. This journey isn't a fixed linear path. So, there's going to be ups and downs, there will be times that can be discouraging, but just to keep moving forward, you know, because that's really where the answer is, you know, that as long as we're still living, we're still growing and there are still opportunities.

Alan (translated)  59:48
Once again, I’d like to thank the group Joel 2:25, as well as the community of Muslims. They are a group of men who want to be positively transformed. I hope you can develop something for these men, because they are really thirsty [looking for support, transformation and healing]. We do not take into consideration one’s religion, you can count on Jeremy and myself whenever you need, whenever you want, and on João [the translator] my friend, we are willing to help you in anything you need. Hugs for all the community of Muslims listening.

Waheed  1:01:13
Wonderful, thank you so much! If anyone wants to get in touch with Jeremy or Alan, how can they get in touch with you? 

Jeremy  1:01:22
For me, they could email [email protected] or just on Facebook either way. And for Alan, it’s [email protected]

Waheed  1:01:44
Jeremy, Alan and João, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. God bless you, we will be keeping you in our prayers. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Jeremy  1:01:54
Oh no, thank you! 

Alan (translated)  1:01:55
Thank you guys. Bye-bye, see you! 

Waheed  1:02:05
And with this, we have come to the end of today's episode. I hope that you guys have enjoyed it, inshaAllah. The next episode is going to be the last episode in our series on support systems, and we will be talking about the Mankind Project, New Warrior Training, as well as the Noble Man. Until then, stay safe and healthy, and I look forward to talking to you in a couple of days’ time. This has been Waheed Jensen in “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta’ala wa barakatuh.

Episode Introduction
A Little Bit About Jeremy
A Little Bit About Alan
What "Joel 2:25" Stands For
How Joel 2:25 Evolved Throughout the Years
Services Provided
Joel 2:25 in Brazil
Other International Services
Logistics and Funding
Admission and Verification Processes
Managing Negative Experiences
Positive Personal Experiences
Services for Women
Demographics of Members
Success Stories
Final Messages from Jeremy and Alan
Ending Remarks