304. A Conversation With Daniel & Andreas Sennheiser

Daniel and Andreas Sennheiser, the third-generation CEOs of Sennheiser Electronics, join the show in Episode 304 to celebrate and look back on Sennheiser’s 80th anniversary.

In a wide-ranging conversation, they talk about the history of Sennheiser, and how it’s remained a family-run company through all of its 80-year history, the hits (and even a couple misses!) of those first eight decades, and what to look forward to in the next few years.

They share how the company got started, discuss their work on the cutting edge of wireless technology with the new Spectera wireless system, the updating of a much-loved classic microphone with the release of the new MD 421 KOMPAKT, immersive audio, and much more!

Episode Links:
Sennheiser
Spectera Wireless
Episode 304 Transcript

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Transcript

Episode 304 - Sennheiser

Note: This is an automatically generated transcript, so there might be mistakes--if you have any notes or feedback on it, please send them to us at signal2noise@prosoundweb.com so we can improve the transcripts for those who use them!

[00:00:00] Voiceover: You are listening to Signal to Noise, part of the ProSoundWeb Podcast Network, proudly brought to you this week by the following sponsors:

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[00:00:58] Andy Leviss: Hey, welcome to another episode of Signal to Noise. I'm your host, Andy Leviss. And with me The Sweet to my Water, Mr. Sean Walker. What's up Sean?

[00:01:05] Sean Walker: What's up buddy? How are you?

[00:01:07] Andy Leviss: I'm good. You know, it's, uh, it's a week...an episode of Anniversaries here. Uh, I was just looking at the calendar and I texted you the other day. It's, uh, two years ago this week was my very first episode of host of this podcast.

And since you were the guest on that podcast and we don't like complicating things by having staggered anniversaries and stuff, we just count that as your anniversary too since you are on it. So a happy anniversary, bud. I totally forgot to get you a gift.

[00:01:34] Sean Walker: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Same. I'm bad at that. I could barely remember my wedding anniversary, let alone other things like

[00:01:39] Andy Leviss: that one I can't help you with.

[00:01:41] Sean Walker: Yeah, right. Totally. No, that's okay. There's, there's no need.

[00:01:45] Andy Leviss: But yeah. Well, but that, that said, our, our guests today are also, uh, celebrating a big anniversary this year. Uh, it is the 80th anniversary of a tiny company listeners may or may not have heard of called Sennheiser.

[00:01:58] Sean Walker: Oh snap. Yeah, we've heard of that.

[00:02:00] Andy Leviss: In 80 years. And, uh, we've got the two co-CEOs of Sennheiser here with us today, uh, Daniel and Andreas Sennheiser, which a lot of folks may not have realized that Sennheiser is still a family owned business.

It's, you know, you kind of like, in all of our minds, I know it feels very much like it's just, oh, it's like this big company, but, uh, the, the two of you are co-CEOs and is it third generation? Right.

[00:02:26] Daniel Sennheiser: Absolutely. Yes.

[00:02:27] Andy Leviss: So, um, yeah, I mean, do you wanna give us a little bit of the, the history of like how Sennheiser started and how like that'll, I mean, again, I know a lot of folks don't even realize that it's still a family run company.

So why don't you tell us a little bit about that and introduce yourselves.

[00:02:43] Daniel Sennheiser: Well he,

hello and thanks for having us. Um, yeah, Sennheiser is still a family business and we've been a family business for 80 years now. We're celebrating 80 years anniversary, uh, 80 years of building the future of audio. Um, but it's not so much about the years. It's more about. All the stories, the learning, the struggles, the successes that we had. Um, and obviously everybody knows the successes. Uh, we'll talk about that in a second. Um, but all those successes also comes from long-term thinking, trying through, um, things that, um, didn't work out so well. And we can talk about those as well, because that's really the interesting stories. The stories that are not so well known, which lead up to. Uh, today, third generation, um, many, many customers happy, um, and still, uh, going strong with, um, Andreas and myself and the third generation.

[00:03:45] Sean Walker: That's awesome.

[00:03:46] Andy Leviss: Yeah, so Andreas do, and so that was Daniel who was talking to us. For those who are at home and don't have the little name tags in front of them, um, I mean, Andreas, do you wanna introduce yourself a little bit as well?

[00:03:56] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah. Um, I'm Andreas. Um, yeah, together with my brother, I have the privilege, but also the responsibility to make sure that, um, whatever has been created, not just as a brand reputation, but also longstanding relationships in the industry. Is, um, is continued and is, uh, actually reinforced through great products, through great relationships.

And if, if we look back 80 years, there's a lot of groundbreaking, um, moments. I mean, only in hindsight it's probably possible to realize what, what was, um, in 1957 when the first wireless microphone came. Um, to the world that was in Germany, uh, together with the German national tv. They cut the cord life on stage and the audio was just going, going on flawlessly.

And

[00:04:48] Andy Leviss: like a magic trick.

[00:04:49] Andreas Sennheiser: exactly, so for, for the, the spectators, it was like, how can this possibly happen? There's no cord attached to this microphone. Um, and, and then there were other great milestones like the, the shotgun microphone that allowed a lot of film production to, uh. Do totally different wide angle shots and or the first headphone, the HD four 14, um, in 1968. And then there's other funny stories like the HD 25, which is like the standard for DJing, which used to be an in flight entertainment headphone in the Concord and where it. And that's what it was meant to be at, at the very beginning, or it was a derivative of an ENG headphone. But because the people who traveled with the unquote loved it so much, they just, they just stole it. And because they were often famous people, like musicians or, or other artists, they just ended up being the standard of, uh, of DJing. So, like Daniel said, it's not about 80 years, it's about all the colorful stories of what has happened, uh, in between.

[00:05:54] Andy Leviss: So basically what I'm getting at is it's DJ stealing headphones from the Concord, or why we have those silly dual prong connectors, so we can't steal 'em anymore on.

Thanks guys.

[00:06:05] Sean Walker: Always the DJs ruining the show every time.

God.

[00:06:08] Andy Leviss: So, and it was, it was your grandfather who founded the company originally.

[00:06:13] Daniel Sennheiser: That's correct. Um, so in post World War ii, uh, Germany, just after the war, he created, um, with a couple of

fellow, um, scientists because he was a scientific researcher at the university. Um, and they needed to survive. They needed food for their families and, and they just started creating products out of the equipment that they had lying around in, in the laboratory. Um, and that's also why the company initially was called. Labour, VVW for Van Boal, um, Labour because our grandfather thought he wa he was doing a laboratory, being a scientific person. Um, and it's only like 10 years later that he actually realized he was a startup. He was an entrepreneur, he was a company. Um, and then he changed the company name to Sennheiser. Very pragmatic, uh, solution. The

family name.

[00:07:11] Andy Leviss: little more concise,

so, yeah. So your grandfather founded it and then was it, it was your father who took over after him?

[00:07:21] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah, he, he took over in the, in the early eighties and, uh, with him actually, the, the company has changed. Up until then, it was a purely, let's say, innovation and engineering driven company where, and my grandfather wasn't really fond of, um, selling and or being very close to the. To the customers in the first place. But, uh, our father realized how important it would be to be close to the customers, founded its subsidiaries, uh, technical fields, expertise. And from there on really the relationship with the community started to build front of house people, monitor engineers, produces, and, and this is how actually we, we then developed from a, a pure technology oriented company to a customer centric organization.

[00:08:10] Andy Leviss: That's.

[00:08:10] Sean Walker: That's been, uh, proven time and again to be super successful. Good move.

[00:08:16] Andy Leviss: Yeah. Well, so that was one of my questions was with the two of you now as co-CEOs, how does that, like, how does the responsibility to divide, like how do you, or does one of you tend to focus on like the one aspect of that and one on the other? Do you kinda share everything? Like how do you, how do you make that work?

'cause I feel like that's not a common structure for a lot of companies to have co-CEOs.

[00:08:34] Daniel Sennheiser: No, and I think, um, our specific solution is not necessarily a blueprint for others. Um, this is, uh. Andreas and myself, uh, figuring it out as we go, and we don't have a segregation of duty. Um, we, um, make all decisions together or on our own and then we align. Um, the good thing is we have, um. Very diverse backgrounds.

Um, Andreas is the engineer, PhD in logistics, um, production expertise and experience, uh, in other companies in that field. My, I myself am a designer. I'm a marketing background, advertising, um, and also outside experience in other companies, um, in, in that field. And then, um, we came together with that, those diverse backgrounds and. In the end, as we're not only CEOs, we are also owners of the company. So you need, ultimately, you are responsible for everything that nobody else wants to take care of. So, um, having these two very diverse views is actually very helpful.

[00:09:44] Sean Walker: Man, I feel that as, as the owner of my own company, I feel that a hundred percent.

[00:09:48] Andy Leviss: Yeah. Sean's like, I wish I had somebody else I could like share the decisions

[00:09:52] Sean Walker: Right. Totally.

[00:09:54] Daniel Sennheiser: It's a great privilege.

[00:09:56] Sean Walker: It sure is. It sure is. But it's a lot of work too. You know, it's, it's a, a balance.

[00:10:02] Andreas Sennheiser: yeah. You have to order your toilet paper yourself. No one else doing it. Right. So that's.

[00:10:07] Sean Walker: in my case, that is absolutely true. Yeah. I'm not sure if you're still doing that, but in my case, that's absolutely true.

[00:10:14] Andreas Sennheiser: fortunate. Fortunately, we passed this phase.

[00:10:16] Sean Walker: Perfect. Per, after 80 years? I would hope so. Right.

[00:10:21] Andy Leviss: So in, uh, like how, how recently did the two of you, uh, like take on those roles as co CEOs? Is it

[00:10:28] Andreas Sennheiser: Well, in 2013, we, um, became co-CEO. So it's about, uh, 12 years now. Um, my brother joined the company in 2008. I, uh, joined him 2010. Uh. We first started in, in our areas of expertise just to get to know the company from the inside because it, from the outside, it does look very different. And to build a network inside the company and to get a gist of the culture is very important before taking over responsibility.

So we've given us a few years to do that until we then assumed responsibility as co CEOs.

[00:11:06] Sean Walker: That's interesting observation. Can you tell us about the culture at Sennheiser? What are some of the things you observed when you were learning about that before you took over?

[00:11:15] Daniel Sennheiser: really interesting because, um, we are. We have a very strong engineering mind. That's my opinion. Andreas might have a different one. We have a very strong engineering mind and an ethic around, um, making the best product. Um. Sometimes we do products just because it's possible, not because anybody wants it.

So it goes, uh, it goes so far. Uh, if you look at the, or voice headphone or the hd, uh, HE one, the most expensive headphone in the world. Um, the best headphone in the world just because we can. Um, but on the other side, um. That ethic is combined with a very strong understanding for the customer. We have a lot of musicians, a lot of engineers, music engineers or audio engineers that work for us as well.

So we, we understand and we are part of that industry, um, in, in a, in a very strong way. And that culture sometimes makes us even. Maybe a bit too close to our customers. Um, we're, um, yeah, we're trying to be, we we're trying to be so close that we, or sometimes we even try to, uh, or we think we understand the customer, um, and then don't ask enough.

So it's, uh, it's, it's back and forth. Uh, we're definitely a very. Um, nice culture, um, with each other. Um, we, and people join Sennheiser, um, either leave after three months because they can't stand it because it's such a close culture, or they stay for life.

[00:12:59] Sean Walker: I mean, that's kind of perfect though, right? Either you find out quickly that they're not a good fit and they move on, or they're hanging out forever. So all of your efforts for training and getting 'em up to speed and getting 'em going is not wasted, right? Like kind of sounds perfect.

[00:13:11] Andreas Sennheiser: Yes.

[00:13:12] Sean Walker: I am gonna write to you and figure out that playbook so I can borrow that from my own company.

[00:13:16] Andy Leviss: I mean, I knew I hated you, Sean, within like three months, but I

[00:13:19] Sean Walker: Perfect. Get in line, Andy, get in line.

[00:13:24] Andy Leviss: Yeah. Yep, yep. I.

[00:13:27] Sean Walker: Uh, awesome. Well how cool. So you figured out the culture. You were like, yep, this is a great fit, and we can totally take over and also align with the culture. And what are some of the. Things that you have focused on since you guys took over. What are, what are some of the things you're excited about?

[00:13:46] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah, I think the transition to really be customer focused is, is a transition that will, um, that we really strengthened and that's still ongoing because I don't think you can. You cannot listen enough to your customers. But it's also, it was also a matter of how we're listening because when you have, um, when there's so many people with so much experience, sometimes just listening to the customer means you, you try to, you know, reinforce. The belief that you already have, and then it's difficult to just absorb new input. That is, that is definitely something that we, um, that we put a lot of effort in, in making sure that we look at how we say it, look at the customer with the eyes of a child, like somebody who's just going to ask stupid questions regardless.

Uh, and, and that's, that's very helpful. And the other part is really. To become a true, um, digital and software driven player in industry while not forgetting the hardware because we truly believe hardware is hard. Hence, we, we keep doing this. We know a lot of software companies struggling to get decent hardware done.

We've figured it out. And now, uh, over the past couple of years, we also had to figure out how to do great software. Um, some we've done through acquisitions like, uh. Um, sound base, um, that, um, as a, I think as a great tool for a lot

of rf uh, people. And we definitely commit to leaving this brand agnostic because we think it's, it's just for the benefit of our, of our users. And the other part, which you may have Yeah, you definitely have seen is Specter is a great example of how to build an ecosystem that is just growing the software capabilities on and on.

[00:15:36] Sean Walker: you chat about Spectra and, and how that is kind of changing things and what, how that's different from your previous wireless offerings?

[00:15:44] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah, well maybe it, it's different from any wireless offering that was brought to the market in the last 60 years. So since 1957, when we brought the first FM TR analog transmission, the basic principle was unchanged. There was a transmitter, there was a receiver, there was a, a single carrier. Analog then digital, but more or less the idea behind it just, uh, was the same. And, um, and when we, uh, did the concept for Specter, we really, um, thought totally different and said, can't we bring the ease of use of smartphone to a. Um, software driven device that handles all the audio channels and make the endpoints transceivers and not just receivers or transmitters so that, um, the customer has the ultimate flexibility, not just in, in. The gear that you can choose, what your handheld should be, should or your, or your body pack. Uh, but also, um, when it comes to developing the system forward. So we have a, a very close user group now that gives permanent input, um, with regards to the next, um, release. Um, they want based on, on the firmware side. So we could, we could make this. Um, and we could implement new features as we go, and the community makes proposals as we go. Um, so Spectera is really just the beginning of an ecosystem which handles, um, a lot of channels in a very, very, uh, small, uh, small, uh, speed, uh, piece of real estate, just one rack unit high and up to 46 channels. That's 64.

[00:17:34] Sean Walker: Yeah. That's awesome. So in our listener base, we've got people whose first rodeo it is and they're just figuring out audio. And then we've got, you know, super pros traveling the world. They're doing the gigs at the highest level possible for the people whose maybe first rodeo it is. You're telling me that it's not any longer just a wireless microphone or an IEM and you have to have both.

Now you can have this one unit that can be either, and you can pick your endpoint. So you can have one rack unit that has I, EMS and handhelds and body packs all in the same rack unit.

[00:18:06] Andreas Sennheiser: No,

[00:18:06] Daniel Sennheiser: Yeah, maybe let me answer this from a, from a marketing perspective. Um, basically what you have, you have a base station and the base station serves 64 channels. Um, and then you have a body pack, and that body pack is everything IEM, um, it's also transceiver, so you can hook your lavalle microphone to it or your guitar, or your bass or any other instrument. And so you have everything in one, um, body pack. And then via the software you can just decide whether this piece of. Body pack is now a transceiver, a receiver, an IEM or or or what it is. And you can also to go further, you can decide what level of quality of service you want. Do you want more channels and therefore, um, uh, lesser quality or more quality and lesser channels. Um, so all of that is completely flexible and definable, uh, via, via the software.

[00:19:15] Sean Walker: So now guitar players can just have one pack. Can it be a guitar and IEM at the same

time?

[00:19:21] Andreas Sennheiser: yes.

So it's

[00:19:22] Sean Walker: Every guitar player in the world just hugged you. Every one of 'em just hugged you right there.

[00:19:25] Andy Leviss: Right, and all the, all the singer dancers,

[00:19:28] Sean Walker: Yeah. They, they all just hugged you right there. They could be their IEM and their performance. That's killer.

[00:19:32] Andy Leviss: yeah, and I can vouch, I got to put ears on it and even play some of my own music through, uh, through a spectera pack at, uh, Infocom back in June, and they sound fantastic.

[00:19:42] Andreas Sennheiser: actually that's, that's the, I I've got a lot of feedback from, um, in, um. Monitor engineers that said, now we have to build in a, uh, a confidence check because there's no noise floor. So if somebody goes on stage, they really don't know if it, if this is working. So they have to some somewhat build in a confidence check.

You, you in here is actually on, you can go on

stage.

[00:20:07] Andy Leviss: bleed a little

[00:20:07] Sean Walker: don't have the standard in your ears when you're walking on stage.

[00:20:11] Andreas Sennheiser: That's, that's no longer there.

[00:20:13] Sean Walker: That's awesome.

[00:20:14] Andy Leviss: it's like one of those horror movies guys. It's too quiet.

[00:20:17] Sean Walker: Yeah.

Right. You're just waiting for something to happen.

[00:20:22] Andy Leviss: Uh,

[00:20:22] Sean Walker: awesome. And does it, is it multiple different options or is it one base station and one body pack and one handheld, or is there like multiple base station options?

Some, some people that are, uh, chasing a similar idea, let's say other companies Chase a similar idea, have done it differently. And so I'm trying to wrap my mind around how you guys are specifically approaching it. Uh, since I think you were the first one to go to market with it, right?

[00:20:47] Andreas Sennheiser: Yes, we

definitely are. And it's also, uh, it's a, a very expandable system, so you can think this as a modular system. So you have one base station up to 64 mono channels. So, or uh, 32. Uh, full duplex channels, but you can also cascade different, um, base stations. Then you duplicate it. So the cascade port is, uh, one of the features that are highly requested and which we're working on right now, uh, in the next iteration for the firmware so that you can then cascade multiple, um.

Base stations either for redundancy, then you just have, you know, full redundancy of the system or range extension or more zones. So it's, it's just a small thing, but it has four antennas. And you can also decide, do I want to have four zones or do I want to have four antennas for more coverage, or do I want to use three antennas?

Four. Uh, for the normal transmission and one camera for permanent RF scanning. So I know if there's a disturbance coming, this it so versatile. Um, and as we go we will, we'll build it, uh, this modular system bigger and bigger, how the customers need it.

[00:22:00] Sean Walker: That is awesome. Plus you've got sound base to help coordinate and do that. That's dude killer. What a great ecosystem. Genius

guys.

[00:22:10] Andreas Sennheiser: And we sold, we're sold out until the year end.

[00:22:13] Andy Leviss: Yeah.

[00:22:14] Sean Walker: a good problem to have. I mean, it's still a problem, but what a good problem to have.

[00:22:18] Andy Leviss: Right. And is, is the handheld for shipping yet, or that's, that's coming

[00:22:22] Andreas Sennheiser: Now that's, that's in the making.

And, um, it's it's soon gonna be shown to the public, but it's yet in the making.

[00:22:30] Andy Leviss: Yeah. Got it. And I, I would imagine for folks that then, then if you're using a handheld, you're gonna use a belt pack for an ear. You're not gonna plug your inners into the handheld.

[00:22:39] Andreas Sennheiser: No.

[00:22:41] Andy Leviss: I, I could certainly see somebody trying. Um, and is there anything else on the specter, the wireless front that, that you two are excited about that's coming up, that you wanna talk about before we like pivot onto other subjects or.

[00:22:54] Daniel Sennheiser: I, I think one thing, which is also, I mean the, now we're getting really technical, but one of the things that is really smart is that the whole RF is done in the antenna. So, um, when you connect, uh, your antenna to the base station, you don't need a coex cable anymore. Um, you're just using a normal network cable, uh, which is very much available everywhere

[00:23:18] Sean Walker: Sold. I'll take three. Biggest selling point ever. You could connect it with network cable. Sold.

[00:23:26] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah.

[00:23:27] Sean Walker: How much? Doesn't matter. Where do I get It? Doesn't

matter how many channels, doesn't matter. Can connect it with network cable Sold?

[00:23:33] Andreas Sennheiser: actually it's quite in, it's, it's

quite interesting how often we hear how much, uh, the big rental houses are spending on coax cable,

uh, who are always, always breaking. And, uh, to be honest, I am, I wasn't aware of how big of an issue the coax cable actually is in a live production. Uh, but I, I learned it.

[00:23:54] Andy Leviss: Yeah, it's, I mean, bang for your dollar. That's the, the majority of your show is going through those couple Yeah. Fairly fragile, really stiff cables. It's.

[00:24:04] Daniel Sennheiser: Hmm.

[00:24:04] Sean Walker: Have. Have you guys ever had a house or your office building remodeled by a contractor?

[00:24:10] Andreas Sennheiser: Yes.

[00:24:10] Sean Walker: Live production companies are about the same as that.

[00:24:15] Andreas Sennheiser: Uh, okay.

[00:24:15] Sean Walker: just beaten the shit out of everything at all times, and at the end, result looks good, but the process is messy. So anything you can do to make it more durable, easier to use for the end user and.

Uh, more off the shelf parts like network cable instead of coex cable, the better.

[00:24:35] Daniel Sennheiser: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Uh, you could see a lot of thinking, uh, went into that and, and almost 12 year development. So it's, uh, something, uh, to, to your earlier question, why are we still, uh, family owned? Um, because exactly, we can think long term like that and, and, and come to solutions, which, uh, really make a difference for the customer.

[00:24:56] Andy Leviss: Yeah, you don't, you don't have to explain to, to a board why we're still working on this project and not shipping it yet. You can just do it.

[00:25:04] Daniel Sennheiser: Well, we, we still have to explain it to our board, but it's us, so,

[00:25:08] Andy Leviss: Yeah. Fair.

[00:25:10] Andreas Sennheiser: And ultimately we're, we're also a not, we're not a non-for-profit company, so we

also need to, we need to make sure that all our employees have breakfast.

[00:25:19] Sean Walker: A hundred percent. A hundred

[00:25:20] Andy Leviss: Slightly lower odds of a hostile takeover though.

[00:25:23] Andreas Sennheiser: Yes, true.

[00:25:27] Andy Leviss: Um, so like that's spectera and that's, I mean, that's, and even like, I mean, we can get deep into the nerdier aspects of why, like doing the. Transceiver at the antenna is great too. 'cause on top of the cabling issue, you're minimizing loss from the transmitter to the antenna when it's right at the antenna, which is brilliant.

And I think at some point we're talking about having one of your engineers on to kinda really dig deep into that for the, the folks like me that would love to roll up our sleeves and get into the nitty gritty of spectera. So we're looking forward to making that happen too.

[00:26:00] Sean Walker: Andy, if you're digging deeper into the nerd stuff, I'm gonna need more coffee. I don't know that I

[00:26:03] Andy Leviss: We'll schedule, I, I, I think we're working on getting somebody, US based, uh,

[00:26:07] Sean Walker: Okay, great. All right.

[00:26:08] Andy Leviss: for that one. So we can let you sleep in a little

[00:26:10] Sean Walker: Yeah, it's early for me, late for them. Let's, I, I can't go that technical. Sorry, dog.

[00:26:14] Andy Leviss: Um, just smile. Just smile and nod and look pretty. You'll be fine.

[00:26:18] Sean Walker: Perfect. Perfect. So status quo then.

[00:26:21] Andy Leviss: yeah. Yeah. Um, uh. So I know one of, one of the other recent products that you came out with, that we talked about on the show recently was, you know, the MD 4 21 or the MD 4 21 2 has been. Everybody listening to the show knows it, everybody's used it.

And then in like the last year or two, you came out with the MD 4 21 compact, the adorable little all hassle I don't have, mine is over on my shelf. It's not by my desk, so I can't hold it up right now. Um, but we talked about that a bit and I know, like we, we in the audio industry lovingly tease the, the clip on the original MD 4 21, which I mean, we know was it was not designed for how we use it, just like with the headphones.

So like, I can't fault anybody for that, but I know that was one of the big changes in there, but like, what, what drove to, to making that, it, it seems like something you don't always expect a company toity to say, Hey, we've got this great flagship product everybody knows and loves. We're gonna overhaul it and update it for, you know, the 2020s.

Like, how did, how did that come about?

[00:27:23] Daniel Sennheiser: Uh, isn't it great that,

um, we have products like that? On one side we have products like a Specter, which are, um, basically a high-end computer, uh, creating, uh, a completely new experience. And on the other side we have products like the. Uh, MD 4 21, 4 41, which are around since 50, 60 years and still in production. And, um,

[00:27:49] Andy Leviss: And the ones that were 50 or 60 years old are still working.

[00:27:52] Daniel Sennheiser: Yeah,

[00:27:53] Sean Walker: Still works from the seventies. I've got an original seventies version that sounds killer and still works awesome,

but I'm still gonna give the clip a hard time.

[00:28:03] Daniel Sennheiser: Um, so we think of, we think of the product and not so much as an electronic product because usually all your other electronic products you don't use after 60 years. Um, this is more an instrument and if you think of it more as an instrument, um, then suddenly it makes sense to try to. Think about how, how can we make this more usable? And, um, obviously the 4 21, everybody loves the sound. Everybody loves the, um, high, uh, uh, sound pressure that you can put on it. Um, almost undestructible and versatility. Um, but it's. It, it is rather large and bulky. And, and, and so our engineers had the ideas, can we make it half size? And it sounds like a stupid idea in the beginning or just like a joke. Um, but when you can make it and you can create something, which sounds really like the. MD 4 21 and, and you can create a versatile product like that, which is a, an instrument for people. Then suddenly it makes a, a, a total sense, uh, for the market. So it was, we didn't have to explain it, we didn't have to introduce it. Uh, when I personally saw it for the first time, it made me laugh. And I think it's, uh, in a good way. Uh, it, it's because it's cute and it's,

uh, it's something everybody wants.

[00:29:25] Andy Leviss: Yeah. Like when I, I, like I described it earlier, is adorable, and I don't mean that in a diminutive or, or mocking way. It truly is. It's, it's like the cute little, little sibling of the original one.

[00:29:35] Sean Walker: But it sounds like the og, right? Sounds like the original one. Because Andy, when you used it LA last time I was like, man, you sound great. What'd you change? He goes, I, I got this new microphone I'm trying out. And I was like, dude, that thing sounds awesome.

[00:29:46] Andreas Sennheiser: Well, I

think tech, technically, the, the, the big, the only change is it doesn't have the roll off, uh, uh, filter. And, uh, it has a different, uh, much smaller housing. It's the same capsule inside, so it, it has the same sound and, and, the clip is much more, uh,

improved.

[00:30:03] Andy Leviss: permanent.

[00:30:04] Sean Walker: Permanent.

Much more permanent. Totally. And did, did many people use the role of, I don't think I've ever taken mine outta music. I think I just left it in

music

[00:30:12] Andreas Sennheiser: is, that was exact, that was exactly the, uh, one of the points that, uh, hardly anyone ever uses the role of. Um, so, uh, making a version without it, uh, was, was a low brainer.

[00:30:27] Sean Walker: And was that the majority of how you got it to be smaller was you just took those extra electronics out and now it can be a lot more compact as it were.

[00:30:36] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah. And, and the housing, of course. Yeah.

But yeah, the ma mainly it's the electronics that, that we're at.

[00:30:43] Sean Walker: Cool. Yeah, I, I got to hear those. I mean, Andy had one for his voice, but I got to hear those at NAM last year and, um, they were, they were great dude. They sounded good on the Toms and everything was, it was at the, uh, the arena,

[00:30:57] Andy Leviss: Uh, the, the RCF

[00:30:58] Sean Walker: Yeah. It was killer dude. It was great. Eight.

[00:31:01] Daniel Sennheiser: So the only advantage, uh, with the old one is that you can still use it as a hammer. The new one is a little smaller.

[00:31:08] Andy Leviss: little lighter weight. It's surprisingly lightweight.

[00:31:11] Daniel Sennheiser: Hmm.

[00:31:12] Sean Walker: haven't tried hammering anything with mine yet, but I'll, I'll put that on the list.

[00:31:17] Andy Leviss: Once we, we use the competitor mic as a hammer. That's that one. We don't care about.

[00:31:20] Andreas Sennheiser: Yep.

[00:31:22] Sean Walker: Right, right, right, right.

[00:31:23] Andy Leviss: Um, I, and, and actually, actually, while we're calling out new microphones and talking about the, the software hardware hybrid, uh, I should point out to folks that, uh, Sennheiser is also engineered into the, the podcasting and streaming market. And Sean and I are actually talking to you this week on, uh, Sennheiser profile USB microphones, which, uh, Daniel and Andreas were kind enough to have, uh, sent us to check out.

Um, so is, is that like a big market y'all have, uh, have seen lately?

[00:31:56] Andreas Sennheiser: It, it is a very important market

because a lot of professional, um, people that go more and more into the broadcast area sometimes should start in, in as a better post, uh, podcaster. So I think it's important that we also have an offering for people through the journey of their professional lives. Um, and, um, so while. I think podcasting has become a serious business, uh, across, uh, across the world. It is still a very new job, so to say. Uh, and, uh, and we also wanted to, I mean, there, there are people who make a living from their podcast and it's people who just, um. Uh, do it in their spare time. And we want to be accessible for, for those who want, um, really make a living from this, then they can either go to the profile, um, while, um, microphone or. Some go even to an upgrade we've seen now with Mann u podcasters on Mann U 87. So that's, it's actually quite a, quite a variety. But, uh, not, not everybody's willing to spend three and a half grand on their first podcast microphone. That's why I think that product is a great, uh, high quality center. Their entry point.

[00:33:12] Sean Walker: and it's super easy to use. I was running a little late today. That'll be a shock to everybody that knows me, and I was able to literally plug it into my Mac and get to rocking without any fussing or firmware or other things in drivers. Nothing install. It just started working and I started twiddling the knobs in the front.

And here we are having a podcast. Easy peasy. Works great. Sounds great. Headphones, like a headphone jack built in. It was super easy.

[00:33:38] Andreas Sennheiser: Great to

hear.

[00:33:39] Sean Walker: Thanks for thinking of us, fellas. We appreciate you.

[00:33:43] Andy Leviss: Uh.

[00:33:44] Sean Walker: That's awesome.

[00:33:46] Andy Leviss: So, uh, what else? Like what else is exciting you, you two, about the future Sennheiser and stuff you're working on. Is there anything you can share with folks, uh, that they might not know about that's coming up?

[00:33:57] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah, well what what we're always doing is we're always

try to, um, and, and I think the, the MD 4 21 compact is a good example of keeping the legacy alive, but yet bringing in innovation into it. Um, so that's, that's. A, a responsibility that we feel is that somebody who's like, like you just said, uh, Sean, uh, if you have a microphone from the six sixties or seventies that is still in production and you wanna buy a new one, then you want to be able to, to match those two. So they should, they should still be, uh, more or less the same. So, um, I think that's very important to keep the legacy alive. Um, while at the same time bring innovation, uh, to the table that. That can totally disrupt the industry, and I think that's, that's more or less the. In, in just very simple terms, what we do in, in keeping the brand strong and at the same time deliver, uh, um, added value and, and more and more value to our customers.

At the same time, it, it is costly, however, so we were spending about 10% of our revenue into r and d every year. So it is a, it's quite an investment. But to Daniel's point, sometimes we just try out things because we. Can or because we want to explore, uh, an area and just like in our immersive audio, um, areas that we have now brought to the car world in the automotive space, we have three brands that have er, immersive sound systems now installed. I mean, that, that's been a passion, um, of us since 30 years. Immersive audio, be it binaural, be it, uh, in, in, in other formats. So we've researched in this and we've had products there more or less. Um, successful, but now finally, there's a mass application in the automotive space for these immersive, um, parts or, or on the Netflix, uh, uh, series.

Uh, most of the Netflix productions are using our, um, are enhanced stereo algorithms, which, which are more immersive than just a a plane stereo signal. So that's, uh, these are the things that we just. That, that are just close to our heart because they're cool. And eventually then the, uh, time, when the time is right, you can bring it to the market.

[00:36:18] Daniel Sennheiser: But sometimes it takes, um, a couple of

iterations. So I think that's, that, that's one of the stories. Um, w which we can share now for the eighties years, um, we've tried to bring immersive audio to the customer in the, in, in the two thousands or nine in 1998, I think. Um, we brought the arounder, uh, to our customers, which was a big, bulky, um, stereo foam, um, uh, uh, styrofoam, uh, uh, um, application with five drivers, 5.1, which you were wearing on your neck. Uh, really weird looking, um, uh, uh, system. The sound experience was wonderful, but obviously the user experience wasn't such a success, and I think we sold something like. 2000 of them, maybe, maybe not.

So it wasn't really

[00:37:12] Andy Leviss: David burn shoulder pads

right now.

[00:37:15] Daniel Sennheiser: And, and you know, in the late nineties, shoulder pads were already over.

They're coming, they're coming now again, but at the time it wasn't really very fashionable. Um, but those are products were you, you try something and you bring it out and, and it's like, okay, it sounds great, but it looks. Stupid. So, uh, let's try again and let's try again. Uh, and that's how innovation really happens.

Uh, we get the feedback from our customers, and sometimes you, you need to try something because otherwise nobody can imagine what it actually is before they can actually see it and then give feedback to you.

[00:37:54] Sean Walker: Totally. Yeah. And, and like you started with the customer focus and the, you know, listening to them and, and

[00:38:00] Daniel Sennheiser: Today, you have immersive audio everywhere. Yeah, I mean,

all the big, uh, all the big, uh, companies are, the streaming companies are, are, uh, using, uh, immersive formats. Uh, finally, I shall say, because it's, it's just such a much more emotional experience. Listen to immersive audio.

[00:38:21] Andreas Sennheiser: Actually, there's a, there's another interesting story, which is also, um, much older than Spectera. And that was a collaboration that we've had with Pink on there, on her, uh, show When she started doing the acrobatics, uh, she al she was always asking for a, uh, a transceiver body pack because obviously when you, when you're just wearing, um, uh. Very light outfit and you don't wanna wear two body packs when she's flying around doing her some assault. So that was, that was the first time we, we actually built a transceiver, which was more or less a transmitter and a receiver just in one, in one little box. But from that moment on, um, a lot of people here were really. Uh, on the hook of the idea of why, why can't we just build a transceiver? And, um, we never really found a solution until we developed, uh, WMAS as a transmission scheme. And then suddenly, um, also the analog devices chip, uh, came, which allowed us to do it in, in, in hardware. And from there. Um, we, we developed the idea of that transceiver, uh, for Spectera, but it was almost 15 years ago that, uh, with Pink, we've already had this, uh, this stream.

[00:39:35] Sean Walker: So she's probably stoked about Spectera and it's new, smaller, lighter thing, and they've been using that for a while now. They were probably a test case for

[00:39:43] Andreas Sennheiser: It's the perfect application for her show. I'm not

sure if she had it in her hand already. Uh, but uh, definitely that's the comment.

[00:39:51] Sean Walker: I mean that's gonna be every pop star's favorite thing to have it all in one pack now. Right? Like

[00:39:56] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah. And also on, um.

On Broiler, uh, the, the newest show, uh, Phantom of the Opera called Masquerade, uh, is the first show that is using Spectera, uh, not only because it has one body pack, but also because it's a totally new performance. It's a seven story building and 17 performance spaces that you walk through the whole building. So if you are in the area, you, you have to see this. This is amazing. And, uh, Spectera is the only, uh, system on the market that can actually cover. All those 17 rooms with just one rack unit and four antennas that are distributed, uh, across this seven

story building. So yeah, so it's, uh, it's uh, in use twice a day. Uh, and in on the weekend even, uh, three times a day.

[00:40:46] Andy Leviss: Yeah. And that's, I, Brett is an old friend of mine and, uh, I've been talking with Brett and Sean A. Little bit. So we will, uh, once they're up and running and they all have time to come up for air and take a breath, we will try and get them on and talk about everything they're doing. They, they're doing some amazing stuff on that show, both with, with the Spectera and like the whole control system they're doing.

Lots of custom software. It's they're figuring out how to push the boundaries of a lot of equipment and, and break it and fix it and make it work again.

Uh,

[00:41:19] Daniel Sennheiser: how we learn

[00:41:20] Andy Leviss: right mo move fast and break things.

[00:41:23] Daniel Sennheiser: Exactly.

[00:41:25] Sean Walker: Totally. I feel like I've left a, just a wake of broken stuff in my trail. I, I get it

[00:41:32] Andy Leviss: That's

[00:41:32] Sean Walker: I need somebody to come behind me and fix it. What?

[00:41:35] Andy Leviss: All right. That's the part I was getting. Yeah. I was like, that's a different thing. That's, you've got Garrett behind you

[00:41:38] Sean Walker: Yeah, totally. Just fixing a log behind. Oh my gosh, totally. I.

[00:41:44] Andy Leviss: Um, so I, I, we've talked a little bit about like the current and the future of it, and I know you, you two have mentioned, you know, like lots of cool stories from the history. Like, do you each have like a, a favorite story or something from, you know, the, the annals of Sennheiser that you wanna share with folks?

[00:42:02] Andreas Sennheiser: There's so many stories. That's, that's why it's difficult to share. I mean, I, um, I like, I like the stories where actually just people. Um, are very happy about something. And one of the, yeah, one of the stories I can share is when, uh, uh, Brian Adams came to visit us here at the headquarters and was on the, was on the weekend.

So, uh, unfortunately, um, no one was there. So I, um. I showed him where his microphones are being made. He uses microphone, uh, Norman, uh, microphones on stage. And so I, I showed him, I wanted to show him the team, but unfortunately the team was, uh, on, on the weekends. So, uh, he, he, uh, sat there where usually the production workers built his, uh, his microphones and, uh, I took a picture of him there to share it with the team the next day. So then, um. The chair that he sat on was put aside so no one could ever sit on this chair again because it was like the holy chair now. And, uh, and so they had the, the fixture, uh, on the wall and the chair, um,

in the corner that couldn't be touched again. But it, I mean that's, that's the great thing about, um, uh, also. The commitment of our production workers because they know who they're doing this for. They know that if Beyonce is on stage, she trusts that the gear works. So all the, all the quality, um, assurance and all the, the love that people put into building these microphones, they're not for. For an anonymous, um, just a crowd.

So, so it's not you, not, not just a piece of a, of a break of a car, you know, it's, it's really a device that, uh, most artists, whether they're famous or not really have an attachment to, it's the only thing that they can hold onto while, uh, being on stage singing in front of 10 or 80,000 people. And all our people understand this.

They understand how important it is. that's why, that's why they love so much to do also these one-offs for, uh, for Beyonce or for others. Uh, so when these one-offs happen, this is a very special moment when, uh, a week later they see it on the Super Bowl or somewhere else, and then they can say, I made this. And that's a very special moment for our people.

[00:44:25] Sean Walker: That's super cool that that's gotta have a lot of pride when they, when they were able to make something like that and then see it the next week at the Super Bowl or Indy 500 or whatever. Right. Like how cool

[00:44:36] Daniel Sennheiser: Yeah. Maybe I can

share a story, um, about, um, also about timing and about understanding, um, what, um, what the value of innovation is because, um, sometimes we didn't get it right. And I think that's a very interesting story as well. Our grandfather, um, and our engineers at the time, they invented, um, the answer phone. In, uh, that was in, in the fifties or early sixties. So a machine that would answer the phone for you, something, which today we think is absolutely normal. Um. But our grandfather didn't see the value in it because he said, well, everybody has a secretary that picks up the phone. Why would you want to atomize that secretary? Um, so he sold the patent, he patented it and sold the patent for like $200 or something like that, uh, to telephone and another company, um, and didn't see the value in it. So that's also a funny story.

[00:45:37] Andy Leviss: Oh, that's wild.

[00:45:39] Sean Walker: If only you had that patent today,

[00:45:41] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah,

[00:45:43] Sean Walker: we'd, we'd be having a different conversation from somebody's yacht. You.

[00:45:46] Andreas Sennheiser: yeah. You know, but, but the good thing to overcome such, uh, uh. Yeah. Such stories is to continue innovating because I mean, when once you've, you, you decide not to, uh, to feel sorry about the missed opportunities, but just go for the next, then there's always the next opportunity and, um,

[00:46:11] Sean Walker: I mean, that's all you can do, right? I mean, especially if you're in the leadership chair, you, you can't be focused in the past. You gotta learn from the past and keep moving forward and,

[00:46:18] Andreas Sennheiser: yeah. Exactly.

[00:46:19] Sean Walker: pushing. 'cause your, your whole team depends on you for it, you know?

[00:46:22] Andreas Sennheiser: And, uh, to, to the failures. Um, there's another example. In 2008, we brought the first true wireless hedge fund to the market. So earbuds with no cords and, uh, not connected to each other. It was the MXW one. There was no Bluetooth, um, technology available at the time. Neither in the phone, nor as a standard technology.

So we invented our own technology to transmit. Um, it was of course cumbersome. You had a, a big dongle that you had to put into the analog output of a phone or of a, uh, um, apple,

um, uh, MP three player. So, so the whole user experience was very cumbersome. And because we didn't sell enough of those. Our product management came to the conclusion there's no market for true wireless headphones. Um, you could be more wrong. Two

years later, apple brought Bluetooth to the, to the phone, and from there it, it went skyrocket. That was precisely at the moment, we decided to, uh, totally give up, uh, true wireless engineering

for,

[00:47:28] Andy Leviss: Oh, no.

[00:47:29] Andreas Sennheiser: for headphones. So it took us, uh, a few years to get back on this.

[00:47:34] Andy Leviss: Yeah. Well, and, and that's a valuable lesson that I think translates and even our folks who run sound companies can learn that of, of taking the data that's coming back into you when something doesn't work, and figuring out why is it that it didn't work,

[00:47:46] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah.

[00:47:47] Andy Leviss: it that this product doesn't work? Or is it just, we're ahead of the time and it's, there's parts about this product or this service that don't work.

[00:47:55] Daniel Sennheiser: Yeah, exactly. Is it, is it the application that is wrong or is it the, the solution that is wrong?

[00:48:02] Sean Walker: That's a good differentiator because more often than not being, you know, technicians, we think, oh, it was the technical part, like. The headphones didn't sound good enough. Well, it's probably got nothing to do with that. They were just not the right solution. You know what I mean? But they probably sounded great, you know?

And now that you're like, you got Bluetooth, you don't have the big clunky adapter box, and now you're like, they're probably killer. They sound great, they work great, they're easy, and now they're sound like gangbusters, you know? So it's definitely kind of, again, back to your like, you know, customer focus and listening to your customers going, Hey man, it, it sounds good, but. You know, we, we need it to be easier to use and now that apple's got Bluetooth, you're like, boom, here's an easy to use product. Right.

[00:48:41] Andreas Sennheiser: Yep.

[00:48:45] Sean Walker: That's awesome.

[00:48:47] Andy Leviss: So is there any, I mean, is there, are there any questions you wish we had thought to ask you that we haven't thought to ask you yet or that you ex expected? We might ask you that we haven't?

[00:48:56] Daniel Sennheiser: Well, we've been pretty full circle. I think

it's, uh, it's, it's great, uh, to talk to you and, and be able to bring, uh, across what Senza stands for since 80 years. Um, we. Is, uh, which, which is basically the reliability just to, to, to wrap it up. It's the reliability, it's the innovation culture, and it's the, uh, the remarkable audio experiences.

Those, those three things every centen has a product, has to have. And that's what we all strive for as a company and with our products.

[00:49:29] Andreas Sennheiser: And what we're really looking forward mostly is to just create more, more, of those exciting moments that people will keep talking about for sometimes a day, sometimes for a decade or even more. I mean, that's, uh, there's so many. Great, great situations where, uh, when we want, when we remember back to, um, like historic moments, um, that were recorded on the ER or on Norman Microphone, I just imagine when, when you go through, um, um, uh, the Aero studios and you see. These U 47 microphones that were used to record Michael Jackson, uh, pink Floyd, um, uh, you name them all,

they're all in all, all in Studio two. And if, if that microphone could tell the stories, who spat, spat on them, you know, during, uh, that would be the, the probably the most exciting collection of, of stories.

And I mean, this is, this is what I think makes our. Our industry is so great that it's not necessarily about the product, but it's about the stories that you can, uh, tell during experience during the use of such product.

[00:50:45] Sean Walker: Absolutely. Absolutely. And how cool that you guys have like generations of killer products to, to land on. It's not like you're like, Hey, here's this new shiny thing and we're gonna try and sell. It's like, Hey, here's a legacy of incredible products that. Are standing the test of time. You know when I got, you know, same that you were just talking about.

When I got the Cal to go do a couple records for Ann Wilson from Hart, we had U 60 sevens and U 80 sevens and four 20 ones on all kinds of things. You know what I mean? It was the, the go-to and I took one with me from here in Seattle to fly over to Muscle Shoals and Nashville to make sure that, you know, we had what we needed to go do our job.

Thanks for making killer tools guys. We appreciate you.

[00:51:26] Daniel Sennheiser: Thanks for using them.

[00:51:27] Andreas Sennheiser: Yeah.

[00:51:27] Sean Walker: Yeah, totally. That seems like a pretty good place to wrap it up if you guys have other other questions. Cool. Well, thank you guys for coming on and chatting about Sennheiser and the cool stuff. Thanks to Alan Heath and RCF for sponsoring the pod and letting us chat about audio and cool nerd stuff. See you guys next week.

That's the pod y'all.

[00:51:47] Andreas Sennheiser: Thank

[00:51:47] Daniel Sennheiser: Thank you. Bye.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green