317. Q&A With The Audience, Part 2

In Episode 317, Sean and Andy go back to the mailbox for more listener questions, picking up where they left off in Episode 309. This time, the focus is on the business side of freelancing — rates, non-competes/NDAs, W2 vs 1099 work, unions, taxes… Plus some thoughts on choosing which compromises to make when time is short on a load-in, and much more! This episode is sponsored by Allen & Heath and RCF.

Episode Links:
Episode 309 – Listener Q&A, Part 1
Episode 317 Transcript

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Transcript

Episode 317 - More Listener Q&A

Note: This is an automatically generated transcript, so there might be mistakes--if you have any notes or feedback on it, please send them to us at signal2noise@prosoundweb.com so we can improve the transcripts for those who use them!

Voiceover: You’re listening to Signal to Noise, part of the ProSoundWeb podcast network, proudly brought to you this week by the following sponsors:

Allen & Heath, whose new dLive RackUltra FX upgrade levels up your console with 8 next-generation FX racks – putting powerful tools like vocal tuning, harmonizing, and amp simulation right at your fingertips. Learn more at allen-heath.com 

RCF and TT+ AUDIO.... Delivering premium audio solutions designed for tour sound and music professionals for over 75 years.  Visit RCF at RCF-USA.com for the latest news and product information.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green

[00:00:58] Andy Leviss: Hey, welcome to another episode of Signal to Noise. I'm your host, Andy Leviss. And with me the Baskin to my Robbins, Mr. Sean Walker. What's up dude?

[00:01:07] Sean Walker: What's up, dude? Just over here scooping, just getting the scoop on things.

[00:01:10] Andy Leviss: See, you can tell we're recording like earlier in the day. 'cause I've got my Dunking Baskin Robbins cup of coffee over here.

[00:01:16] Sean Walker: Oh, there you go. Oh, are they owned by the same company? Same holding. Same parent company. All

[00:01:20] Andy Leviss: Yeah. They, yeah.

So like pretty much always now, like one side of the store is a Baskin and one's a Dunkin.

[00:01:25] Sean Walker: Uh, sneaky. Sneaky. You got morning and night business coming in. I see how it goes. That's

[00:01:31] Andy Leviss: I mean, I've got a DHD, I'm just caffeine all day long

[00:01:34] Sean Walker: All right, fair enough. You

[00:01:35] Andy Leviss: that, that,

[00:01:35] Sean Walker: mess the ice cream.

[00:01:36] Andy Leviss: Oh, I mean, I'll do the ice cream all day long too,

[00:01:38] Sean Walker: Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. All right,

[00:01:40] Andy Leviss: Yeah. No, but it's, that was always, that always like weirds people out when they get to know me, they're like, wait, caffeine helps you sleep? I'm like, Uhhuh,

[00:01:48] Sean Walker: wait, so is, is Duncan like. Starbucks of the East Coast and the south.

[00:01:54] Andy Leviss: no. Like

[00:01:55] Sean Walker: that where everybody goes to get their coffee and and stuff in the morning like here in the Pacific

[00:01:59] Andy Leviss: is still Starbucks, but like if you're going for like a donut and then, and there are people, particularly as you get more into New England where like Dunkin is from, who are like, yeah, no Dunkin's the best coffee. And I think particularly if you're in New England and you're at one that actually like cares, it can be, but the further towards like my area you get the more it's like, yeah, nah man.

Nah, it's. It's,

[00:02:26] Sean Walker: Fair enough. I've only run into him like in airports or, you know, when I was doing shows in the, in the south, is that southeast? I guess. You know what I mean? And it's, uh,

[00:02:36] Andy Leviss: Yeah. And like even the donuts or like as you get towards New England, they're better 'cause they're all done at like regional bakeries and like franchises are not, or whatever. And.

[00:02:43] Sean Walker: not made like fresh on site each

[00:02:44] Andy Leviss: Well, some of them are, and I feel like there's even some here in New York that do that. And like more towards you get, you get more of those, I think as you get towards New England where either they are, or they're baked centrally enough that like they restock them during the day,

[00:02:58] Sean Walker: Oh, that's cool

[00:02:59] Andy Leviss: but like, yeah, here it's like they get one delivery at like probably, you know, three or 4:00 AM and then you know they're okay till about seven or eight.

And then you go in the middle of the day and you're like, what's the most heavily iced donut I can get? 'cause the rest of it's gonna be stale, so I need to.

[00:03:12] Sean Walker: Understood. The old fashioned are starting to look a whole lot better than the like plain cake donuts kind of vibe.

[00:03:18] Andy Leviss: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, like a crawler usually holds up pretty well.

[00:03:22] Sean Walker: All right. All right. We've got

[00:03:23] Andy Leviss: fancy French wee wee donuts.

[00:03:25] Sean Walker: we, we've got this little Dutch bakery here in town that just is unbelievable good. Which is rare 'cause there isn't a lot of good stuff here in town. You know what I mean? But like, just unbelievable, like illegal good. Kind of good, you know. And it's the same thing. Do you get there like 7:00 AM with a coffee from next door?

'cause they don't do coffee, they just do bakes like breads and donuts and stuff. Dude, illegal good. Like I shouldn't live this close. It's not helping my waistline. This dad bought, it's getting more, more dad. You know what I mean? Every, every time. Fucking

[00:03:59] Andy Leviss: think it's getting more bod technically.

[00:04:00] Sean Walker: Fucking both, dude. More. More both. Geez,

[00:04:03] Andy Leviss: Yeah, we have our, our local coffee shop here has like their own bake bakery downstairs that does all the pastries for it, and they do only certain days a week. They basically turn the stale like muffins from the leftover muffins from the day before into chrome muffins.

They're like a croissant, donut muffin hybrid. So like if you, if you know the cronut, it's like, sort of like that, but in muffin it's like. It is almost like monkey bread if you know what monkey bread

[00:04:28] Sean Walker: Yeah, sure.

[00:04:29] Andy Leviss: but like, even, even worse for you. And it's deadly.

[00:04:33] Sean Walker: All right. Fair enough.

[00:04:34] Andy Leviss: Yeah. Um,

[00:04:36] Sean Walker: let's get to some audio to the

[00:04:37] Andy Leviss: I, I was gonna say.

[00:04:38] Sean Walker: like, we're, they're over us already talking about donuts and coffee. But

[00:04:40] Andy Leviss: I mean, I

[00:04:41] Sean Walker: are we doing

[00:04:41] Andy Leviss: are, we are live event people.

We're all about donuts and coffee.

[00:04:44] Sean Walker: Fair enough,

[00:04:44] Andy Leviss: this is arguably on topic. Uh, no, we figured it was time. We did a bunch of q and as. I mean, what was it? Gotta be like a month or two ago now. And we promised to get back and keep plugging for the list. And this seemed as good a time as any to, to continue our four into the list of, uh, no stupid questions.

[00:05:02] Sean Walker: All right. Let's plug. Well wait. No stupid que challenge accepted, bro. Can I put my questions down there too? Hold

[00:05:08] Andy Leviss: I mean,

[00:05:09] Sean Walker: beer.

[00:05:10] Andy Leviss: yeah. Right.

[00:05:14] Sean Walker: Oh. That little mixer. You guys gotta go, bro. That good?

[00:05:20] Andy Leviss: Uh,

[00:05:22] Sean Walker: get into it. Dude. What are the questions today? What are we, what are we doing?

[00:05:24] Andy Leviss: what's that? What,

[00:05:26] Sean Walker: I said, what's the first question?

[00:05:27] Andy Leviss: what's the first question? I know, let me spin a little spinner.

[00:05:31] Sean Walker: Thanks, mana.

[00:05:32] Andy Leviss: Uh.

Uh, I mean, here's, here's a philosophical one that I don't know that we could actually answer, but, uh, you guys have thoughts on why venues put the mixed position in the worst location in the building every time?

[00:05:46] Sean Walker: Oh totally. To sell more seats.

[00:05:48] Andy Leviss: Yep. Yep. It,

[00:05:52] Sean Walker: but us is thinking about audio. Everybody else is thinking about making money and selling seats.

[00:05:56] Andy Leviss: yep. And, and while you and I and all of our listeners think, realize that the better the show sounds, you'll sell more seats. That that only gets you so far. Um, okay. Oh, here, so we've actually got a bunch of, like a handful of like business and freelancing stuff that I think might be up up your alley, Sean.

So one of them was, uh, uh, let's see. Okay. We're gonna break this up into like two and a half questions. So one of them is, uh, do we have any thoughts on non-compete employment clauses, either as an employer or as a freelancer or as an employer? I guess I should say.

[00:06:38] Sean Walker: As a freelancer, no, dude, like. I feel like general principles of don't be a Dick apply. Like don't be given away everybody else's secrets, right? If you learn something dope on a show site, keep that to yourself and don't be telling all their competition. Uh, but, you know, no, you can't be non-competing freelancers.

I don't, I don't think, this is not legal advice. This is opinion, right? Lemme just put that out there. This is just my opinion as, as so much of this entire show is. Right. But that's. That's kind of a jerk move to try to NDA or not ND to non-compete people, uh, that are freelancers, uh, employees. I guess it depends on how big your operation is and what you're working on.

That's gonna have to be a great area for me. Like if you've got super high-end clients and you've got a super dialed process to deal with them and everything is. Everything is, is just so I could see somebody saying, Hey, man, this can't be getting sent around, or whatever. If you're, if you're leaving, that's cool, but you can't be taking that with you.

But if you're talking about like just general audio or AV stuff and you're like, this is how we tune line arrays, like, get outta here, man. Whatever, dude. You know what I mean? But if you're like, Hey, we work for the government, or we work for whatever, right? Pick, pick, insert Fortune 500 company or bank or whatever here, like you can't be giving away their secrets, you know what I mean?

Those need to stay, those need to stay private, or you're trashing your reputation and your employer's reputation, and then you're gonna have a hard time getting hired before, right? So if you're talking about non-compete, like, hey, you can't. Have client A with us and then go work for client A when you leave us.

Like that seems pretty fair, dude. But if you're like, Hey, you can't go work for anybody when you leave us, like, get outta here. Of course you can, you know?

[00:08:41] Andy Leviss: mean, I think the, the first qualification there is like, you've gotta be paying somebody at least 40 hours a week consistently, or like a steady salary to even like begin to broach the, I don't want you doing this work for anybody else while you're working for me, as otherwise, it's just a dick move.

[00:08:57] Sean Walker: Sure. I mean, I, I think that applies to freelancers too. Like, you know, if we just pick a huge company that everybody knows about, right? Let's just say like, uh, fucking Netflix or something, right? Like, if you work for me on an on for Netflix and then you go work for Netflix directly and then you wanna come back and work for me, not a chance, bro.

Like stop, stop gonna working for my clients without me, right? But, uh, if you are. Long, you know, if you're, if you're working for, I don't know. I don't know how to get the situation, but like, you, you can't go work for our clients without us. Right. That's just, that's no good. That's not gonna get you hired, that's gonna get you a, a bad rep.

[00:09:41] Andy Leviss: Yeah, no, yeah. Don't poach clients. And, and I can see to a point, the, particularly if you are, if you're working like full-time, it's like an A one mixer for a company and they wanna say like, Hey. On the time when I, when I'm not employing you, like I would prefer in part for like what I am paying you, I'd prefer that you not also go work for other companies so that when people think of you and want your quality work, they come to me.

I think to a point that's valid. Like I said, I think you need to be giving somebody enough work to make that worth their while.

[00:10:13] Sean Walker: You absolutely have to give 'em enough work to make that worth their while. 'cause they gotta make a living too, right? This is, this is a. A, a multi fingered question. It's not really straight down the fairway as it would be, right? Like if you're paying somebody a top rate and they happen to be a freelancer or a perma lancer or whatever, right?

Like the paperwork, uh, designation is less important than the frequency and how tight you're tied to that company. Regardless of the paperwork, right? So if you're, if you're crushing like 10 shows a month for somebody, whether you're W2 or freelance, like, Hey man, keep the trade secrets. Don't you know what I mean?

Don't lose that work. Don't, it's about trust, right? Don't, don't, don't, uh, don't mess up the trust, right? But, uh, if you do one show a year for them, like. I

[00:11:10] Andy Leviss: Yeah. Unless, unless you're paying me a hundred thousand for that one show.

[00:11:13] Sean Walker: Right. Which, which you're not. Right. Like even, even the top paid freelancers that, that I'm hip to aren't, aren't doing that for a show.

Right. They're doing that per year, but not per show. Right. So, like, you know, it, it's a little bit of a gray area, but it kind of just boils back to don't be a dick dude. You know what I mean? Like this is all trust. It's a small, small, small industry. Keep your reputation good. Keep your integrity high, and you know, do what you think is best under those circumstances,

[00:11:47] Andy Leviss: And I, I will throw in the necessary disclaimer that neither Sean nor I are lawyers and there definitely are. Legal things, at least in the US about non-competes and what's enforceable and what's not. Neither of us are qualified to speak on that part of it. So

[00:12:00] Sean Walker: a hundred percent.

[00:12:01] Andy Leviss: hate to say this phrase, do your own research on that.

[00:12:03] Sean Walker: A hundred percent. We're, we're talking about opinions and thoughts. We are not giving legal advice right now for

[00:12:09] Andy Leviss: We're we're talking ethics. We're not talking what you legally can do.

[00:12:12] Sean Walker: Yep. Exactly. We're talking ethics, not legals. Anyway, next question. Let's

[00:12:15] Andy Leviss: So, yeah. So next part of that same question from the same person, which, and again, we'd said last time, we're going to keep questions anonymous for everybody, just that way. Some people wanted to be anonymous, some didn't. So it's easier, easier for everybody that way. Uh, was when transitioning from like freelancing to a company for a company or freelancing in general to a full-time position at a company as an employee.

Uh, like how much more or less sh would you charge? Would you, as an employer be looking to pay somebody, staff versus somebody freelance. And, and would that change for you depending on if there was a non-compete requirement or not?

[00:12:56] Sean Walker: I would say somebody should be expecting to take a huge pay hit.

[00:12:59] Andy Leviss: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:00] Sean Walker: Uh, I would, I would say that, uh, in addition to the ginormous. Tax load we have as employers here in the United States, specifically in some states, I won't name my own state, but my own state, you know what I'm saying? Uh, and some others. New York, California, Washington, some of those are just like, if you haven't looked into it, it's, it's almost unbearable as employers to, to operate in some of those states.

[00:13:28] Andy Leviss: There's like worker's comp, there's payroll taxes, there's, there's family leave taxes, there's all sorts of, and some of it comes out of the paycheck, some of it doesn't.

[00:13:37] Sean Walker: And some of it is absolutely helpful to employees and some of it is just a kick in the shins for employers, and it does not tle down to the employees. So what seems like a great idea is not, but I'm, I'm gonna, before we get too deep into that

[00:13:52] Andy Leviss: Yep.

[00:13:52] Sean Walker: just piss off everybody, but um,

[00:13:56] Andy Leviss: Yeah.

[00:13:56] Sean Walker: here, here's the short answer, the value to us.

That it costs significantly less money per show to deploy somebody on a show as a per, as a full-time employee rather than a freelancer, right? So if we just take some,

[00:14:14] Andy Leviss: Yeah, there's just less paperwork.

[00:14:16] Sean Walker: there's, well, there's less paperwork, but, but if you don't have to go look for work,

[00:14:22] Andy Leviss: I.

[00:14:22] Sean Walker: and I'm looking for your work for you, which is a huge part of being a freelancer,

[00:14:26] Andy Leviss: full access to my calendar. You know I'm available 'cause you've got the right to.

[00:14:31] Sean Walker: And, and you get paid whether you're working or not. Right. That that's

[00:14:35] Andy Leviss: gonna say that's the flip side and that's what the trade is. And that's like what I've gone through this year and going from a hundred percent freelance to, you know, we'll say like 80 to 90%, you know, full-time salaried with my gig in Yamaha and freelance on the side of that is it's, you definitely do take a hit, but that hit is in trade for the the steady check and the predictability, and that's worth a lot. And it's, I mean, de, depending on your expenses, all your other stuff, how good your accountant is or isn't like you're getting that more pay up front. If you're doing it as like an independent contractor, you're not necessarily keeping that come March or April.

[00:15:15] Sean Walker: No, I mean, you. Whatever you're charging as a freelancer, if you don't have a baller, bookkeeper and accountant, you should be taking 30 to 40% of that money depending on how much you're earning and just putting it in an account to pay the tax man,

[00:15:29] Andy Leviss: I mean, even if you do have a good accountant, you should be doing that. 'cause then you're giving yourself your tax refund and you're earning interest on your tax refund if your accountant gets you to keep a lot of it.

[00:15:38] Sean Walker: Again, experience and opinion, not financial advice. Consult with your accountant and tax person,

[00:15:45] Andy Leviss: Yep. And shout out to Bob, my accountant, who I just met with this morning.

[00:15:48] Sean Walker: there you go. Go Bob. Go. Uh, but when you look at like, whatever this, let's say outsized day rate is that you get to charge as a freelancer. And I don't mean you're not worth it, I just mean it's a bigger number because ultimately what's happening is your company, you being the freelancer, you should have a company, you need a sole proper LLC in the United States are billing my company.

For a service. You are now responsible for all of the corporate taxes on that, your personal taxes, the LLCs, taxes, the all that other stuff. You've got a huge tax bill coming, right? So I would suggest to put. 40% of that in a, in an account someplace. And then when you get, go have to pay all those taxes quarterly or whatever, you can, you know, you can adjust as needed as it as it comes in or out, but then you don't have any surprises.

Well, if you go work for a company and you aren't a freelancer anymore, you transition to a W2, all those taxes are coming outta your paycheck already. So you're already gonna be looking at that 40% gone, right? Plus. The not having to search for work, not having to go look and keep yourself busy. It's now my job to keep you busy or not, and that's my problem.

There's a discount for that too. So I would expect to be, uh, if you just wanna talk about a per day, I would expect to see half per day of what I am as a freelancer, as a full-time employee. Because there's gonna be other things, right? Especially if there's a benefits package, a retirement package. If there's other things, you have to look at the total compensation, not just the fricking, hourly or day or whatever it is, rate.

It's a whole package, and then you have to weigh that against your personality, your situation, your needs and desire. What is it that you like or want? If you love? Business development, mingling, socializing, meeting people. Dude, freelance is an incredible journey to be on. If you hate talking to people and you hate selling and you hate, like going out and networking and mingling and like, freelancing is miserable, bro.

Like it's all, it's all the, it's all the hard parts of sales that most people don't wanna talk about with a few wins, right? Until you get to be. A known quantity and get to have a big client list over years and years of, of being excellent. Right. We assume you're all excellent 'cause that's the only way you get hired.

You don't get hired for being meh, you know what I mean? Usually speaking. But like I would, what I most often see is that it's like a bell curve. You start at a company. You take the pay they've got and you learn and you get experience, and you get to learn processes, you get to learn, dude, some of the little things that make the baller freelancers really fricking worth their weight in gold.

But like little things that have, I'm gonna say nothing to do with audio, but. Nothing to do with literally mixing the show, but like how to prep a gig, how to pack a truck, how to label cases, all that kind of stuff, right? And how to be super duper duper detail oriented, and I mean, anal detail oriented, right?

Because. What happens as your career goes along? And this is, you know, those of you that are in the top 10% of your career, just, you know, hang tough for five minutes. We'll be right back with you. This is for the people that are either in the beginning or middle of their careers, but. Your career is a bell curve as you're learning, growing, you know what I mean?

Find a shop that fits your vibe, that's got the good, good feelings that you like. If you know, nobody should be getting yelled at all the time. No, you know, I'm, I'm talking about like they've got a growth path. They've got things to teach you. You like going to work every day. Not every day is perfect, right?

But. But by and large it more, more good days than bad days. And you're learning all the things it takes to go do this, because it's not just about sitting at front of house and mixing a show, right? So when you learn all these other things that have nothing to do with literally sitting at h front of house, mixing the show, how to fly pa, how to tech a generator, how to plug in cams properly, safely, whatever, how to run cables in a super neat racetrack so it doesn't look like a spaghetti mess behind stage.

You learn what finished looks like, right? You learn what your product as a. A technician, a human, a, A, your name is your product. Right. When I hire, let's say I hire Andy. When I hire Andy, Andy's a product. I'm like, Hey man, if I hire Andy, the audio's gonna be on point. The RF and comms is flawless, and all the cables are neat and tidy, and everything's labeled and looks fricking awesome.

Not, I don't know. I just need some fucking dude to sit there and punch away. It's some buttons, right? Like I know what I'm getting. Right? So that's what you're building as you're working for this company. And then a lot of people, as they get. Into their career. They learn all this, everything's going fine.

You've got, you're getting paid to learn all this. Like who doesn't wanna get paid to go to school? Right? Oftentimes, you're getting well paid to do this, and now you've built up a skill set, a stack of tools that you can go deploy and you can make some pretty incredible money as a freelancer because you now have the experience of that and probably are a little bit older.

And I don't mean you know, super old, but like. Maybe if you started this in your late teens, early twenties, maybe now you're in your late twenties or early thirties, if I, you know, and you got some life behind you too, so you are responsible enough to save this money for taxes and not blow it at the bar.

You know what I mean? Or you didn't go buy a brand new sports car when you should have saved the money for taxes or whatever it is, right? Uh. Then you go freelance and now you can make some really great money. And when you show up on site, now you have an understanding of what the rest of the crew is going through.

What the production company that either hired you or you're interfacing with. 'cause maybe you're now the baller, a one or a two, right? Like sometimes you call a twos or comms guys, gals, guys, whatever, to like go do this. 'cause that's the position you need, right? But you know how to slot into that team.

Effortlessly and you know how to add huge value. And so when people get your bill and they ask for your day rate and your kit fee or whatever else it is, we're happy to pay it, right? It's not just about, oh, well I showed up and I did the thing. It's like, dude, when these people show up, you know, I, I hire all kinds of people, right?

When the top people show up that I'm like stoked to fly around the country. The amount of extra stuff they provide that is not just the one seat I hired them for. Just by being in the room is unbelievable. They're, they are oftentimes leaders softly. They're not showing up going, I'm in charge. Here's how it's gonna be.

But if they see things that are becoming unfocused or tasks that need to be done that aren't, that maybe maybe the crew leaders working on something else, they can go, Hey guys, let's work on this thing here. Here's the next thing we should probably be doing. They'll go to the crew chief and go, Hey man, how can I help you drive today?

'cause I see that you've got a full day of. You know, general session, 200 trillion breakouts, 90 fricking union people sitting on the dock and five semis coming in. And you can go like, how do I help you drive today, man? Can I stay outta your way? Can I help take over some rooms? What do you need? And rather than just like, uh, wait until the freaking show's built to move suited front of the house.

You know what I mean? Like those people are the kind that you're like, I cannot wait to have back on my job site and pay them their outsized day rates compared to what they get as W2, right? And then often as those people. Are coming to the end of their career and they're tired of hunting down work, or maybe their clients have gone to a different kind of thing.

Oftentimes they will come back and, and do manager or director level positions at these companies. And maybe they are going on site still, maybe they're not, but they've, you just get all this experience, right? So it's this kind of, this bell curve of, of things that are possibly, but a lot of skills go into it rather than just.

You know the one thing we think we're getting hired for, there's your long-winded answer to that. Sorry dog.

[00:24:10] Andy Leviss: Hey, that's great. People like when you talk better than I do. So,

[00:24:14] Sean Walker: I got a face for radio. It helps.

[00:24:16] Andy Leviss: uh, so that we kind of answered half of this next question, which transitions off that already. But just to, to ask it specifically in case we have anything more is we had a question on, so I actually learned a new term for the, uh, for this question, which was any tips on transitioning from being A-P-R-N-W two to actually being like a 10 99 freelancer?

Which for those like me that didn't know the term, PRN Fancy Latin Legal Term, pro Renata basically means an as needed W2 employee as opposed to like a true 10 99 independent freelancer. So basically what in our industry we would consider a freelancer over hire. In either case, just on the one hand, doing it as a W2 employee.

On the other hand, doing it, 10 99, we talked. A bit about that already and about, you know, having to set aside money as a 10 99 er that you wouldn't as a W2. I mean, the legally the answer gets complicated. 'cause legally the answer is 95% of the time that we pay folks in our industry as 10 99 freelancers, it's not actually legally correct.

[00:25:26] Sean Walker: I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump right in there. I'm gonna right in while, while. Uh, it, it heavily depends on the verbiage you're using In order to do that, uh, W2 employees are super expensive just to carry whether they're working or not. There's a carry cost for them. There's a monthly payroll cost. There's, there's risks of, you know, different, different taxes, different bills showing up or whatever.

And that's a. Way outside the scope of this, this conversation. But

if you have freelancers, 10 99 people, they must own their own company. So they must have a sole proprietor shape or an LLC in the United States. Pick a state, I don't care. Wherever you live, and you gotta have, you gotta have your own insurance, right? So then what is happening is, let's take a show, right?

Ballroom, gig A at some. Hyatt or Marriott someplace on this day at this time. And the the law states, if you tell somebody when to show up and where to show up and what to dress and how to do, and they're using your equipment, they're an employee, they're not a freelancer. Cool. Well, what, what you do is say, Hey, here are the parameters of this contract that I need.

I need somebody to show up and do, let's say, a one at the Marriott in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The, the timeframe for this would be, you know, 8:00 AM to 6:00 PM or whatever. And here are the dates that that needs to happen. We would love a bid from you on what it would take to accomplish that. Now my company is engaging your company for a contract to do this said thing, and you are absolutely legal 100% in that check your attorney.

Uh, it's not legal advice, but that is how you do that. If you say, if I say, Hey Andy, I got a gig. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh, are you available for a gig? Yes, I'm available for a gig. Great. It's this time, this date, this thing. Here's your console, here's what you're doing, blah, blah, blah. That, that language is what you were talking about earlier where you're like, Hey man, you're, that's not really the thing.

But if you're like, Hey, here is the RFP for this said event that I need, can you send me a bid for that? Knowing good and freaking well, what your day rating kit fee is like? It's the language in which you say it that makes it different,

[00:27:59] Andy Leviss: the.

[00:28:00] Sean Walker: but then your company, Andy Leviss, awesome sound guy.com trademarked is sending a bid to my company for a scope of work, right?

[00:28:11] Andy Leviss: Yeah, the the other key thing I was gonna say that can generally always cover the, and again, neither Sean nor I are lawyers is a loan out agreement. And, and in fact there are like some of the larger like production payroll services like cast and crew and new caps. If folks know who those are, that's what they'll do for a lot of their over hire situations.

They're like, Hey, do you wanna do it as a W2 or do you wanna do it under a loan out? And that's basically an agreement between the company hiring you and your company saying, you are loading me, this employee for this particular job, and basically I am paying you to pay your employee. And now whether you as your like personal company, payroll yourself or not, is a whole nother can of worms

[00:28:53] Sean Walker: Ooh, that is you and your accountant to sort out. Do not ask. That's not,

[00:28:57] Andy Leviss: point we're gonna try and get an accountant on, um, not for a few months 'cause they're all really busy the next two months. Uh, but I'm gonna revisit that 'cause uh, my old accountant retired off to the islands and, and I haven't been able to get ahold of him to come on like he was originally gonna,

[00:29:09] Sean Walker: At a boy.

[00:29:10] Andy Leviss: but, uh, one, once a taxi's over, I'm gonna reach out to my, my new guy and see if, uh, see if he's interested.

Um. But probably not till May. Um,

[00:29:20] Sean Walker: it depends is the answer, but, uh, if you are gonna freelance, you need to start a company, either a sole proprietorship or an LLCI highly recommend an LLC and get your insurance. And then there's no longer an issue because now my company is hiring your company. Not me hiring you personally, and, and all, all rest of the conversations are done, but then it's all on you, man.

You know what I mean? Or, or man or woman or whatever, right? So, uh, okay. Next question

[00:29:50] Andy Leviss: Next question. Let's see. Lemme cross it. Um, so question, there were a couple of questions that came in about union stuff. So, so these are ones I can, I can obviously answer a little more.

[00:30:01] Sean Walker: those are Andy questions.

[00:30:02] Andy Leviss: Um, one of them was asking that since this person knows that I'm, I am was, uh, I os e uh, stage N sound engineer, did I have to give up my card to start freelancing?

And can you freelance while being part of a union? And that again, is a, an answer of it depends. So it it, the thing, because there's the I oi, the International Alliance of Theater and Stage Employees is the US and Canada Stage Hands Union. It is an international, there are certain things that are like things you across every local of it, but generally every local can set their own rules for lots of things.

So some locals. They don't care at all. They're like, yep, when we have work for you, you can do it through us. When we don't, you do you man, other locals like local one here in New York? Uh, they pretty, it, it depends on where it is, what it is. If it's in a venue that the union would have jurisdiction typically.

They want to know about it, they want to get the courtesy call and just get the heads up of like, Hey, I'm doing this gig here on this date for this. They're like paying me directly, you know, as a freelance thing. Like, is there a contract I need to know about? Do you wanna do it? And most of the time, particularly if you have a good relationship with the business managers, they'll either say, oh yeah, there's a contract there, so and so does a payroll for it.

Just put it through there and, and that way you'll get your union benefits paid in on it. Or they may say, uh, yeah, that's fine. You did your due diligence calling me. Let me know if you want me to get it paid through a contract for you, I can, but if not, 'cause it's just a one day thing. Don't worry about it.

Uh, then there are other locals that'll be like, Nope, you cannot take work outside of our jurisdiction or contract. You know, we're gonna fine you if you don't. And like local one, uh, you know, according to the rules, we'll fine you if you do work in a venue that's in their jurisdiction, not on a contract without letting them know.

But they're generally pretty cool about like, no, end of the day you gotta pay the bills. We're, if it's a venue that like, we're not gonna be able to organize for everybody, we're not gonna prevent you from working on it. And then like, I will like. There's buildings I've worked in as a local one hand on the local crew and also as a production, A one or production, you know, SE or RF coordinator or whatever.

And in there it varies on the show in the venue. There's some venues that. There's a union payroll provider that'll pay me through there, which is great. I got all my benefits on it. Uh, you know, sometimes that's on top of my day rate, which is extra awesome. Sometimes that backs outta the day rate a little bit.

But again, just like we were saying with, you know, taking work as an employee for a company, while I'm not seeing that cash up front, I'm seeing that going into a retirement account or going towards insurance. So it, it balances out in the end. Um. Yeah, it's kinda one of those things you gotta factor to each their own.

There are certainly, if you get enough work freelancing, like on the production side that's not paying you on a union contract, that it no longer makes sense to pay annual dues to a union that you're not using. Then, you know, see what options there are for withdrawing. Like I've, at this point, withdrawn from the designer's union because I'm just not doing that work anymore and it doesn't, like, it didn't really make sense to keep paying that money.

For, you know, I'm not gonna have the time to do that work. You know, what work I am doing is actually running shows and they basically allow the option of honorably withdrawing. Uh, you basically pay off like the, you know, the last quarter that you owe dues for. And then whenever you join up, you, you pay, I think it's like they cap it at like two years of missed dues.

So like if I'm out for two years, I pay two years worth of dues. If I'm out for one year, I pay one year worth of dues. If I'm out for 10 years, I pay two years worth of dues if I want to join back up. So for where I am, that made the most sense. But I do still have my local one card. I do still use it a bunch, you know, like I'm not doing enough work on it to qualify for insurance through them.

But I've also got insurance. Through other channels. So like my insurance contributions kind of go to subsidize everybody else in the locals insurance and, you know, that's, that's fine. That's how union's supposed to work. You know, I do get contributions towards like a, a pension and annuity fund there, which are nice to have as, as a freelancer.

Um. So yeah, that's, that's where I am. And, and again, the answer to can you freelance wellbeing part of a union is, is, it's complicated and it depends. Um, I, I don't like Sean, do you have any other questions that kind of stem from that one? Uh, let's see. I feel like there was another. Uh, and then we also had a question from one of our international listeners who was just like, as a person in a country with lots of unions, but none for our industry, they'd love to hear a little bit more about the mechanics of I Ozi at some point.

Um, I mean, I almost feel like at some point we should do an episode where we get somebody who's like actually like an organizer, like a union rep to come on and talk about it from that perspective. Um, as a member in somebody in the us it's. Yeah, I mean that's such a wide range of question. I don't even know where to, where to start with it.

Uh, 'cause again, like even becoming a member varies so much from local to local, like in, in New York City for local one. You, anybody can anybody you know, capable of doing the work and get work on a union contract, particularly when it gets busy and they need to over and they need, you know, hire more people than are available with cards.

They'll hire somebody in either, like in the Broadway theaters for sound folk, uh, it's usually the house head electrician that hires us. All sorts of historical reasons. Uh, that sound falls under the electrics department. And you get to know those folks. They'll call you directly. But if they also run out of their list, they'll call the union Hall.

And there's a, a local one has what's called the replacement room, which is the, if you don't have work that day and you're available for work, you can go show up with your bag of tools ready to work. Say, Hey, I'm, you know, Andy, I do this, this, and this. I can also do this in a pinch. Got anything today and, and you know, he may say, I've actually got something right now here.

Go go to this theater. I'm gonna call them and tell them you're coming. He might say, hang out, I might, you know, just hang out for an hour and I'll let you know either way. Or you might be like, eh, nothing really today, but try me again tomorrow. And through those, you basically have to earn 37,500 on a union contract for three consecutive years.

And that consecutive part is important 'cause there are people who have made it for two years, fallen short the third year and then have to start over. So it can take five or six years to make that. But basically once you make that number three years back to back, then you're eligible to become a member.

Uh, they used to then vote on members, which was really inexpensive formality to like do the voting machines and stuff 'cause. There are always like 10 to 20 no votes. Either people who really hate somebody or just people who are cranking are like, ah, we have too many members, and they're not like a family name.

And then, you know, a few hundred of of you know, yeah, no, then let 'em in. So a few years ago they went to, okay, we're not gonna vote. You make your money, you're good. Um, you know, there's a couple other requirements, but other locals are different. Other locals, it might be a time thing. It, it might be just a, you worked for us for so many months and you get in, uh, you may have to get voted in.

You may not. It, it, it very much varies, uh, jurisdiction to jurisdiction, which is why that's a hard question to answer. Um, and, and likewise, it'll vary in cities as to whether we just, the union just provides crew for a venue and, and the venue reaches out based on their client needs. What. It, you know, what they need and the, and the union business agents will staff that, or you know, it, it, there are, you know, production companies that will just hire and work with the union to, like, we hire our people, we staff it just like any other company would.

We just have a contract to pay everybody union benefits on it, in under union terms. So it's, I I know that doesn't entirely answer this question because it's just a hard question. To answer broadly, like if anybody has specific questions about like how Izi works, I definitely, like I said, I think that's an interesting thing to.

Get somebody from the union at some point to talk about it a little bit or I know there's like a couple of folks in the concert industry who've also become like local one members in New York, which I mean I became a member 'cause I worked in theater a lot, which where it made a lot of sense for me.

Like I've been surprised, pleasantly surprised to see some like really name like a-list, you know, front of house engineers who have also gotten on local one cards. And there's one in particular I want to reach out to and get on and. And in part talk about that journey and, and why and what his balance of work is these days.

Um, and also just I think he'd be a cool guest to have on. So I'm not gonna say who, so I don't put pressure on this person. I haven't, I haven't fully reached out to you yet, although I've got some mutual friends in the mix there. Um, so I think that's a, that's a question we'll revisit, but hopefully that sort of answers the question for a few folks to start.

Uh, what else? Um, okay. Back, back to one that, that. Sean might have some thoughts on too. Uh, when does switching geographical go markets make sense as either as a freelancer or as somebody trying to find work and, and do we have any thoughts on what the best ways to do that?

[00:39:23] Sean Walker: Sure. Uh, that's actually a really simple answer and can be very short, which is, you know, rare. For me, I would say the best time is when you want to do a different type of work than your geographical location supports. If you want to go tour by and large. Nashville or Lititz are the places to be to go do that.

Uh, entertainment, music tours, right? Uh, if you want to do corporate work, then New York, la, Orlando, you know those, maybe even Dallas or Houston. Those are gonna be great places to be, right? If you are totally cool working for a regional or local shop, then you can work anywhere and just go find someplace you love to live.

[00:40:10] Andy Leviss: Yep. I think I agree with all of that. I think it's. I think any decision like that, uh, or on finding a new job comes down to the what are you looking for and what will give you satisfaction. 'cause there is, there is the, I'm, I'm neither enjoying what I'm doing nor making enough money. There's the, ah, I'm not doing like rock shows, which would be really cool, but I'm making a great living and I don't have to like stress about, you know, paying my bills and living the life I wanna live.

And, and then there's the, nah, I really wanna be doing like a certain type of show that I can't do here. And those, those are things that every person has to balance for themself. Um.

[00:40:48] Sean Walker: Totally. And then, and then the how to do it. Uh, like I said, a trillion times, walk into the shop like, uh. Take a shower, get a haircut and a beard trim, or you know, whatever. And look presentable. You're not dressing up in a suit, you're a technician, right? So you're rocking technician clothes. But clean up, get, get, get all cleaned up and, uh, you know, bring a resume if you want.

But most of us are gonna take a quick glance just to get the, like, who am I? Who's standing in front of me right now? Okay, great. What are we talking about? And then. Your personality is what's gonna sell you or not, right. Personality and experience. And if you've got no experience, be candid about it and say, Hey, it's my first rodeo, but I am willing to learn and work hard and show up on time and never leave you hanging.

And, uh, for that I would love to learn how to, how to be great at this. And any employer will think that's awesome. You know what I mean? Uh, you are not going to start. In their, in their top client's a one seed. You are going to start helping with load ins and load outs. You are going to start, you know, if it's a tour house, mixing their local shows, getting, you're gonna prove yourself.

Right? And that's not that they don't, it's not that they don't want you on tour, it's that it's really fricking hard. To sell what we do, you gotta experience it. They gotta know, Hey, the crew thinks this person is awesome. The clients think this person is awesome. When they have challenges, they, they go through them with grace, and they think through it and they can problem solve.

They don't just cook down and crumble and start crying or whatever, right? Because if you send somebody on the road and they. Are untested, unproven, that's a real pain in the butt to go get them and replace them. But if they're just down the street at the county fair or the local concert or whatever, it's a lot easier just to send somebody in to save the day than it is if they're thousands of miles away or on a different continent or whatever.

So just be, be prepared for that. Even if you are a smoking, let's say front of house or monitors or whatever, which is is awesome. They're still gonna make you do a few things. I would, I would bet. Unless you've already built up a name, right? Like if you've already got a name for yourself, then it's just go, they'll just hire you.

But if you don't have a name for yourself, you're gonna do some, you know, I keep saying county fairs or local stuff, but you guys know what I'm saying. You're, you're, you're gonna do some local gigs, regional gigs, uh, for a short, a short time to really show them how you slot into their team. Right.

[00:43:38] Andy Leviss: Yeah. It's, it's a relationship. Is a relationship. It's, it's just like, it's just like dating. You're not gonna, like,

[00:43:44] Sean Walker: dude. You're building

[00:43:45] Andy Leviss: you're, if you're not on a reality show, you're not going to jump in and like marry somebody like the day you meet 'em. Touring is a lot like a fucking marriage man. Like, y'all gotta live together, like you're traveling together.

It's, there's, there's not really much escape from each other, which is why that like be a good hang thing is is the phrase that always comes up when we talk about touring.

[00:44:04] Sean Walker: Absolutely, man, and, and also know yourself, right? Like a lot of people say, how do I get on tour? But is that really what you want? Or does that just seem like something cool? Right? And, and I'll go out and say it, even though there's hundreds of thousands of people listening right now. But I am not a good fit for tour.

Right. I'm too particular since I've owned a company, I, I want it done a certain way and I'm not flexible enough to go, you know, I can't go work for Claire and go on tour with somebody. I'm not, that's not a good fit for me, right? Not, not any slag on Claire at all. Just that like, they want it done a certain way.

That's not the way I wanna do it. That's not gonna be a good match, right? So know that about yourself and know if you are gonna go be super diplomatic. Super easy peasy to hang out with, not prickly and go with the flow and just control your itty bitty little world that you can at let's say monitors or front of house or whatever, right?

But that you're not in charge of all this. All this is happening at you, to you. Around you. You have, you have a lot less control, right? If that works for you, killer dude, great. That's a good place to go. You know what I mean? Claire's got a bunch of killer tours. They would love to have great techs. Go do that, man.

That's awesome. If you're a little more set in your ways, like I am, right? That's not a good match. So find something that is a good match. Go work for a corporate house. Go work for a company that does maybe short weekend runs like a lot of the Nashville guys, like at Spectrum or you know, even some of the like sound image shops or whatever, right?

They're ripping out Thursday and they're home Sunday night, like p. That would be killer. Dude, you go smash some main stage shows on some fly dates or whatever, that would be a much better fit for me. Right? Rather than being gone for months and months and months or somebody, you know, that has a, a family at home.

Right? If you're gone for a few days, it's a little bit of a challenge. If you're gone for weeks or months, that's brutal. Right? So those are the things to think about in those scenarios and, and if that's what you really want and. You know, if that's not what you want, you got so many options. Go do sports.

Go do video games, go, you know, come work for a regional sound company, whatever, right?

[00:46:22] Andy Leviss: Yep. Uh, okay. I got a, a slightly more technical question for folks to get away from the business and the philosophical stuff. Uh, although it's this. 42,

[00:46:33] Sean Walker: Right.

[00:46:34] Andy Leviss: um, is, uh, where did it go? Uh, okay. When time is tight for load in setup, sound check, what do you prioritize and what do you push down the list?

[00:46:45] Sean Walker: Uh, we internally have a, a, a checklist that we go through. Sometimes it's an actual checklist, sometimes it's mental, and it is a yes or no. Checklist is divided very easily. Show can happen, yes or no. Show cannot happen, yes or no. And we roll through in prioritize all the things that check the yes box for show can happen and all the things that are, you know, the nice to haves get by the wayside, right?

So spend spending time with your smart rig tuning, tuning the PA does not mean the show can or cannot happen, but if there is power or not, power show can happen or not happen. Right? PA is, PA is up and operational and sounds like a PA ish. Great. If I got time. I'll throw up my, my measurement rig, which we build in time for.

I think it's super important. I'm not discounting that. What I'm saying is, if you have not measured and optimized your PA, the show can happen. It just won't happen as eloquently or as good as you'd

[00:47:46] Andy Leviss: Yeah, your first song or two are gonna be rough, but you'll get there.

[00:47:49] Sean Walker: happen, right? So you check off all these show can happen boxes, right?

Power is up, PA is up and functioning. All boxes work consoles, working. Comms are up, RF is working, you know, whatever. Right. Then you can go back if you've got time and go, all right, dude, what are the nice to haves? And you just keep prioritizing down from the giant things to the medium things, to the smaller things, to the quicksand, right?

Like maybe we're not race tracking cables and making it extra pretty if we've got, you know, a super undersized amount of time for something, right? You're doing the best you can, but it's not gonna be quite as beautiful as if you've got extra time, right? Because show could happen. Everything's functioning good.

I can go clean up a little bit later, or. Those, those kinds of things. Belt packs and handhelds are super nerd labeled with my label maker. Probably not if you don't have time, but they all do work and they've been coordinated, and they're functioning and nothing's gonna crash. And then you throw in some EAP and sharpie labels on 'em real fast so that you know, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, but, but

[00:48:50] Andy Leviss: some sort of label is super duper important. Even more so than when you've got lots of time. But yeah, quick and dirty. Gimme some gaff, E tape and a Sharpie.

[00:48:57] Sean Walker: but maybe it's not your baller label maker with the frequencies and the person's name in the pack and it's in black and gold looking all super sexy, right? Like, you don't have time for that shit.

[00:49:06] Andy Leviss: just, just at least enough to be able to troubleshoot.

[00:49:09] Sean Walker: black, Etta with a silver, Sharpie, B, B, B, B, you know, handheld one, handheld to you, handheld three body pack, one body back two.

Bye. So that, that's how we do it. Like show can happen or show cannot happen, and then you start going through the other things.

[00:49:20] Andy Leviss: yep. Like I'm gonna prioritize like stuff in the air, stuff on stage line, checking in both directions, in and out. Make sure that stuff is coming in where it should and going out where it should then pass that time, allowing, I'm gonna tune the rig. 'cause that's harder to do on the fly, particularly on a larger system.

But at, like Sean said. If, if it doesn't happen, I can, I can tweak it as I go. And then last is gonna be like a, a. Proper, like full sound check for all the instruments, you know, for the band and all that. Obviously helpful, obviously important or we wouldn't waste time on it every day. But if that's gotta go, like I can dial in per, like, I, I can rough in what, you know, okay.

I know what that kick mic is gonna do in that drum. I can kind of roughen starting point EQ and then quickly, you know, tweak it through the first song. I mean, and that's, that's what you're doing on like a festival kind of thing half the time anyway. Um, so I think that's kind of how I would, I would prioritize it. Um, and like, and then like the, the other variable to throw in is like if you're on wedges or ims, if you're on ims, you, you can get away with a lot less 'cause it's a more consistent listening environment for the band. If you're on wedges, they may need a little more to be comfortable, but on the other hand, if they're comfortable with you and their communication with you, if it's a band you work with regularly.

You can likewise get away with like, you know, roughly what they're gonna need. They know how to communicate you what's not working for them at the start, and you can kinda hit the ground running.

[00:50:45] Sean Walker: Totally. All right. What's next?

[00:50:48] Andy Leviss: All right. Let's see. Uh, I don't know if you have, uh, if you have experience or thoughts on this, but, uh, we got asked, uh, how do you handle language barriers at a show, especially when you only have minor overlap. Like you only speak a little of theirs. They only speak a little of yours. I'm an American, so I just speak louder.

[00:51:08] Sean Walker: Uh, candidly I don't run into that much, so I don't have a good answer for that. Um.

[00:51:14] Andy Leviss: I don't either. I have a few times like on tour and stuff, and it's, I mean, the key is,

[00:51:20] Sean Walker: Point. Pointing at some, pointing

[00:51:22] Andy Leviss: I was going

[00:51:22] Sean Walker: thumbs up or thumbs down like that, that kind of helps. But like I don't really have a great answer to be

[00:51:26] Andy Leviss: yeah, I mean, honestly, even, even when everybody speaks the same language, it's always gonna be about clear communication. You know, don't, not that I'm great at this, particularly on the podcast, particularly when I'm trying to fill time, but don't use 10 words where one word will get the point across clear. You know? Yeah. Like pointing, gesturing, you know, like Yeah. We all, we all understand the same tool, so at a certain point, like if I can point to a drawing of a stage with numbers and microphones on it and I can point to a pile of microphones, somebody knows what they're doing is gonna be able to figure that out, you know?

Or if, if speaker's not working, I can pretty. Clearly communicate through, you know, terrible mime, you know that this isn't working. Can you figure out why?

[00:52:11] Sean Walker: totally, dude.

[00:52:12] Andy Leviss: Um, yeah, and I mean, I mean, our phones are getting great at translating stuff too, which is super handy. I mean, shit, the AirPods can do real time translation now, which is bananas.

Um, yeah, so not necessarily a ton of great advice there, but I, I think that kind of holds, and if anybody else listening has other suggestions or. Tricks they've figured out. You know, give us a shout, uh, let us know and we'll, we'll drop, uh, drop more thoughts from folks on that question. Um,

[00:52:41] Sean Walker: Cool. Is there one more quick one, or should we just wrap there?

[00:52:44] Andy Leviss: yeah, lemme see if I can find one more quick one. How about, I think this is like a quick term meeting, quick one, which is, uh, as, as your like past entry level of a career, how do you find mentors or mentorship?

[00:53:04] Sean Walker: Ask that one more time.

[00:53:06] Andy Leviss: So what, so it was folks who were basically saying like, at the entry level of career, it's easy to find mentorship 'cause you know who's been doing it longer and who's doing the kind of work you wanna do. But as you get up to like mid or higher levels of a career, the need for a, a mentor to learn from doesn't go away.

How do you find that when you are at those like higher levels and trying to figure out who to get it from?

[00:53:31] Sean Walker: I look to my peers and I look to people that are. Uh, doing the things I want to do. So in, you know, in your guys' case, doing the shows you wanna be doing, look to the people that are doing those, right? Music is, music is easy 'cause a lot of people do that. So if you're mixing music shows and you're doing a great job, but you like, are trying to figure out how to get to the.

Top 1%, right? I would go to the people that you want to learn. Froms website, their phone number and email is on it, right? And you can call them, text them, email them, whatever, right? Like if you do music shows, pooch Ryan, you know, all those guys, they've all got websites, they've all got their phone number and email on it to get work.

Like they're not shy to talk to people.

[00:54:16] Andy Leviss: Uh, like 90% of us in the industry are nerds and we just like talking about this shit. We'll talk about it to anybody.

[00:54:22] Sean Walker: a hundred percent, dude. A hundred percent. Yeah, dude. So find the people that you dig and, and go ask 'em some questions. Dude, you know, you can reach out on social media if they're active on it. If they're not super active on social media, that's not gonna be a good way to do it. So don't just make that your first call, like some of these people are.

Uh, either posting because they're required to for their jobs and then like send posts and forget about it. They're not super active. Some of them could be super active, but like as we get older, we get less excited about social media and more excited about living life in the real world. So sometimes it's more like, okay, I had to do the thing 'cause the boss said so, or 'cause the clients need me to, and it's done and I'm off to what I'm doing today and they're not checking their messages and that kind of stuff.

So. Email or calls or text are, are often, often the way to go for, for people that are farther in their careers, you know what I mean? Um,

[00:55:19] Andy Leviss: And the obligatory plug, the discord.

[00:55:21] Sean Walker: yeah. Right. Totally. And, and our discord

[00:55:23] Andy Leviss: Yeah, come hang with us

[00:55:25] Sean Walker: totally because

[00:55:26] Andy Leviss: the cooler people than us who were there.

[00:55:27] Sean Walker: way cooler people than us are hanging out there, dude. Way cooler people. Some of the top 1% in the world are hanging out there, like giving advice for free and interacting.

And you can, you can interact. They're happy to chat, dude. You know what I mean? Uh, and some people, man, I would say most people are lurking at this point. Most of the people you want to turn, learn from are lurking in our Discord server, whether they're super active in it or not. And you can, you can interact with them at some point.

So that's a good place to go.

[00:55:59] Andy Leviss: Yeah, if you post like, Hey, I'm looking to do X, and you know, if anybody's got advice or like would be willing to like mentor me a little bit. People will both comment publicly, but often people will reach out over DM and be like, Hey, I don't wanna post publicly, but yeah, shoot me questions. Let's chat.

[00:56:13] Sean Walker: Totally, dude. Totally. Well, that seems like a good place to wrap up the hour here before we just bore people to tears. Thank you, Allen & Heath and RCF for letting us yap about audio for another week. That's the pod y'all. See you next week.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green