322. Twenty Thousand Hertz On The Evolution Of Theatre Sound

Episode 322 shares a look at the history and evolution of sound design for theatre, from Broadway to Cirque du Soleil, from the folks at the Twenty Thousand Hertz podcast. This early episode features two of the biggest names in Broadway sound, Abe “The Godfather of Sound Design” Jacobs, whose career ranged from mixing the Mamas and the Papas and Jimi Hendrix to designing such iconic Broadway shows as Jesus Christ Superstar, Hair, Evita, A Chorus Line, and so many more, joined by Jonathan Deans, designer of countless Cirque du Soleil Vegas spectaculars including Mystere, Love, Ka, and many others, as well as a long list of Broadway credits including last year’s Tony Award-winning sound design for Buena Vista Social Club, Waitress, and Pippin, to name just a few.

Episode Links:
Twenty Thousand Hertz
Inside Sound With Dallas Taylor
Jonathan Deans Online
Episode 322 Transcript

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Transcript

Signal To Noise, Episode 322: Twenty Thousand Hertz On The Evolution Of Theatre Sound

Note: This is an automatically generated transcript, so there might be mistakes--if you have any notes or feedback on it, please send them to us at signal2noise@prosoundweb.com so we can improve the transcripts for those who use them!

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Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green

[00:00:58] Andy Leviss: Hey, welcome to another. Episode of Signal No Noise. I'm your host Andy Leviss with me, as always, the Cirque to my Soleil, Mr. Sean Walker. What's up, Sean?

[00:02:05] Sean Walker: up dude? How are you?

[00:02:06] Andy Leviss: You're good. I, I was waiting for you to be mad that, that you're the circus and I'm the sun, but it

[00:02:10] Sean Walker: man. I'm good. I'm, I'm absolutely the circus bud. If people knew what went on behind the scenes and how much pooper scooping you do for me to just come in here and yap for an hour, they'd be like, yeah, yeah, that makes, that tracks.

[00:02:22] Andy Leviss: Yeah, I am. I am Sally. It is my circus and I'm the monkey,

[00:02:25] Sean Walker: Yeah. Right. Totally.

[00:02:27] Andy Leviss: or I'm one of the monkeys. I gotta wrangle both of us. That's the thing, like wr wrangling you is easier than wrangling myself.

[00:02:32] Sean Walker: Yeah. Right. Totally.

[00:02:33] Andy Leviss: a DHD is, uh, uh, what, how, how you been, what's been going on this week?

[00:02:38] Sean Walker: Good man. I'm, I'm really good. I'm just, uh, you know, without getting too off the audio topic, working on buying more companies and some of those are going well and we're getting close to closing on some, so I'm, I'm excited. You know what I mean? It's gonna be fun to start tacking on other city names to the, uh.

To, you know, our locations, which will be great.

[00:02:57] Andy Leviss: I say, is it, it's gonna be audio engineers, all the us damnit.

[00:03:00] Sean Walker: Yeah, totally. But mostly just so we can serve clients better around the country. Right? Because like, you know, if we got, it's hard to truck across the whole country, is anybody, you know, there's probably people here that own companies of all kinds of sizes, but like especially here in the US with diesel at darn near $7 a gallon now to be like, cool, yes.

Let me service you from Seattle to Orlando or Seattle to Boston or whatever. And you're like, yeah, yeah, $2 trillion in trucking to get there. And they're like, nah, that's cool man. We'll just. We'll just have somebody local do it, you know?

[00:03:28] Andy Leviss: Yeah. We'll, we'll call on. It'll be fine.

[00:03:29] Sean Walker: yeah. Will it though? Will it,

[00:03:33] Andy Leviss: I mean.

[00:03:34] Sean Walker: you know, but Yeah. Yeah. Totally. But it's, it's good man.

It's

[00:03:37] Andy Leviss: Good. Yeah. My, my,

[00:03:39] Sean Walker: working through that and then, you know, crushing corporate shows here like we do, you know? Yep.

[00:03:45] Andy Leviss: Yeah, I've, I've been in the, I've been in a, a weird medical journey the last couple weeks. I, I had an eye thing going on, so I now have the unique experience of having, had literally had an, a needle in my, like, we're always like, all, I'd rather get a needle in my eye. I now know exactly what that feels like.

[00:04:01] Sean Walker: I thought you would've figured that out years ago in Hell's Kitchen. I didn't know you'd wait until you were like a grown ass adult and responsible and shit.

[00:04:07] Andy Leviss: yeah, no, I, yeah, I mean, with, with, with LA even folks out too much, we get too much into detail of, um, uh, a vein thing in my eye that basically caused my left eye to go completely blurry overnight a couple weeks ago. And, um,

[00:04:23] Sean Walker: Were you out at the bar talking trash and got knocked out or like what happened?

[00:04:27] Andy Leviss: uh, is, I mean, if you wanna get really nerdy about it,

[00:04:29] Sean Walker: really, no.

[00:04:30] Andy Leviss: I mean, it's, it's called a re a retinal vein.

Occlusion. It's basically a vein in your eye, gets, gets stopped up, and then eventually bursts itself open and does things to your retina. And so basically my retina has been swollen, so they, there's like a 30 to 40% chance for folks that like, if you don't do anything after a few weeks, it clears up. After about a week, it became clear that I was not in that lucky third of folks.

So now I get to, like once a month for the next six months, get a, get a literally a shot in my eye. And then from there, hopefully it'll, it'll space out. But like, you know, probably like three, six months, 12 months for like, it could be up to five years. So that's extra fun.

[00:05:13] Sean Walker: Ah, so your boxing career is over then, is what you're saying?

[00:05:15] Andy Leviss: I, I mean, my boxing career was over before it started, but. That's, uh, that is, that is one type of spectacle you will not see me at the center of. Um, speaking of types of spectacles though,

[00:05:29] Sean Walker: Right.

[00:05:30] Andy Leviss: uh, I actually, I be, because I've been a little crazy with that medical stuff this week. I, I figured we'd do something. A little bit different from usual. Not the first time we've done it though, but I have a guest episode from our, I'm gonna call them our friends at 20,000 Hertz.

They're really the cool kids at the table on the other side of the lunchroom that occasionally talk to me and that I wanna, I wanna be friends with, 'cause like Dallas and Casey and everybody over there. Awesome. Um, but for folks who don't know, 20,000 Hertz is a super cool podcast that we've featured once before and talked about a bit.

That dives into all things sound and sound design throughout the real world. Like, like I said, they've done episodes on like the sound design of like Apple products. Uh, they've done, you know, yeah. One on like the little song that my, you know, washer and dryer sing to me when my clothes are ready, you know, and you know, like, or about the sounds that like, you know, EVs make because they don't make engine sounds and that's a safety issue.

Um, you know, we've mentioned before they did a really cool episode with the front of house engineer for Vol Pack. Ben, who's, uh, I, I hope I'm remembering the name right, 'cause I didn't do my research on that and I'm going off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure it's Ben. Um, you know, that was really awesome that you guys should check out that one we haven't featured.

I'm not gonna go. 20 k.org is their feed. Go find that one there. Um, but a while ago we shared an episode of theirs on the sound design of Hamilton that they did, and they have another episode they did on basically the evolution of audio and live entertainment, you know, from like Broadway through to Cirque de Soleil that features a couple folks I like.

Um, one of them is Abe Jacob, who is kind of considered the godfather of Broadway sound. He is, he. You know, was one I, I wanna say he might have even been who the UPA was originally designed for, for some of his Broadway shows. Like

[00:07:24] Sean Walker: You mean the speaker?

[00:07:25] Andy Leviss: Yeah, yeah. No, Abe Abe's and, and OG working with Meyer way back when as a designer.

Yeah. He started, like, to give you an idea of the hour we're talking about, he was like the front of house engineer for like the Mamas and Papas, Peter Paul and Mary and Jimi Hendrix,

[00:07:41] Sean Walker: Copy that.

[00:07:42] Andy Leviss: very like, very square to like, oh wait, that got really cool on a steep curve there. And from there in that like period, they were starting to do the rock musical, Jesus Chris Superstar.

And like, apparently it was sounding so bad that like a couple early performances of it had to get canceled and somebody was like, I know who can solve this. We gotta call Abe Jacob. And they called Abe. Abe fixed it like he was the designer on the original production of hair. You know, like, so, so many musicals like Lifetime Achievement Awards up the wazoo, and also just a really nice.

Really cool dude. Like I've, I've had the pleasure of, you know, hanging out with him a bunch over the, over the years as I've been in New York. Really cool guy. So they kind of start this episode with him, talk about the history of how Broadway sound reinforcement came to be and evolved. And then they go along the progression to another longtime, uh, friend and co-conspirator of Meyer Sound and who I've worked on a couple of visuals, a bit.

Jonathan Deans. Who, like right now on Broadway, um. Buena Vista Social Club. Uh, the musical is his, I wanna say he is got a couple others running right now, like Waitress was his. The Pippen revival that I had the pleasure to work on a couple different times was one of his, but he is also well known for being that guy who does all the crazy shit on Cirque de Soleil shows in Vegas.

[00:09:04] Sean Walker: Cool. I love

[00:09:05] Andy Leviss: and the, the Beatles love, um, where in addition to having a bazillion, you know, Meyer line array speakers and subs throughout the space, like, I think I love the people kept asking, so like, what is it, like 5 1, 9 1? And they kind of napkin mathed and said, well, it's not really any of those, but I guess if we had to like describe it, it's sort of 27 7.

[00:09:26] Sean Walker: Sick. I love that.

[00:09:28] Andy Leviss: And but on

[00:09:28] Sean Walker: so let me just derail your train there. I love Vegas, bro. Vegas is amazing. Like let's go, we gotta go meet in Vegas. Like what's up with that dude?

[00:09:36] Andy Leviss: right. And

[00:09:37] Sean Walker: know you were talking about some really important shit right now, but I'm just gonna fucking squirrel steak houses and stuff. Cigars in Vegas, like that's what's

[00:09:43] Andy Leviss: shows where they do bat shit stuff. Like not only have that many speakers in the air, but literally Jonathan put speakers in the headrests of the seats.

[00:09:51] Sean Walker: Heck yeah, dude.

[00:09:52] Andy Leviss: like on Ka you had like kind of two like, um, here and then on Love The Beatles show. When it was running, there were actually three.

So you had one in the head rest in front of you and two right behind you.

[00:10:01] Sean Walker: Heck yeah.

[00:10:02] Andy Leviss: So. Obviously Broadway budgets don't quite extend to that circus, its own kind of cool insane beast on those Vegas shows. So they talked to Jonathan about that and basically how we got from like inventing ups to two shows to, well now we're putting a bazillion line array boxes and also throwing three speakers in every seat.

[00:10:20] Sean Walker: Heck yeah.

[00:10:21] Andy Leviss: Um, so it's, it's a really cool insight into that whole evolution. A little talk about where like that kind of sound design might be going in the future. So. Uh, we're gonna quit babbling now. We'll hit plan on an episode and then we'll come back at the end and, uh, and kind of wrap things up.

[00:10:40] Sean Walker: Yeah, dude, this will be super fun for people that are into theater stuff.

[00:10:43] Andy Leviss: Yeah. And also you get a break from us blathering on. So, uh, without further ado, let me turn it over to our friends from 20,000 Hertz. Cool. Well, that was, that was an episode on the Evolution of Sound through Broadway, Cirque De Soleil and all sorts of other stuff from the awesome, really cool folks over at 20,000 Hertz. 

SFX: Beyonce sing the National Anthem

You’re listening to Twenty Thousand Hertz. I’m Dallas Taylor.

Back at the 2013 presidential inauguration superstar Beyonce sang the Star Spangled Banner… but she didn’t do it live. Beyonce admitted to lip syncing.

SFX: Beyonce press conference clip

“...Due to no proper sound check, I did not feel comfortable taking a risk. It was about the president and the inauguration, and I wanted to make him and my country proud, so I decided to sing along with my pre-recorded track.”

Beyonce’s decision to lip sync acknowledges the importance of taking sound very seriously. Especially during a live performance. Big events rely on great designers, mixers, microphones, speakers, and a whole host of other things in order to sound effortless to an audience. At least, that’s true today...but, it wasn’t always that way.

Abe: For generations there was no sound system in the theater. Everybody strained to listen in those days. Today, audiences are inundated with ear buds and other forms of mechanical reproduction so they no longer strain to listen in the theater.

That’s Abe Jacob, a sound design legend. Early in his career, Abe mixed concerts for musicians like The Mamas & the Papas, Peter, Paul, and Mary, and Jimi Hendrix.

Abe: In those days with Jimi, all of the band gear, all of the musical instruments, the little bit of lighting and the sound equipment, all fit in one 19 foot truck.

He even worked on the Beatles’ final touring concert in Candlestick Park.

SFX: Begging of “Yesterday” by the Beatles

But Abe didn’t just do rock concerts. In 1968, he went to Broadway, where he was asked to do the impossible.

[SFX Opening Notes of “Superstar” from Jesus Christ Superstar play]

Abe: Coming in to do Jesus Christ Superstar in two days was a high point because the previews had been canceled because of wireless microphone problems

(SFX microphone feedback causes the music to end).

Before Abe, there weren’t any credited sound designers on Broadway, probably because there wasn’t much of a sound design.

Abe: We didn't do a great, great job in the very beginning.

It was basically area mic-ing that picked up the sound of voices. It was very simple audio mixers, rather than audio consoles.

It was a struggle for the audience to hear with such little thought put into the sound system. And things didn’t get much better when the first wireless microphones were introduced.

Abe: In early theater in the 60s, there was always one wireless microphone that was usually on the star, Carol Channing in Hello Dolly.

[SFX: Carol Channing begins to sing the title song in Hello Dolly]

It was a very large device. It looked almost like a small carrot that was hung around their neck underneath the costume. That led to the fact that the microphone was underneath the costume, so you got considerable cloth noise on the microphone [SFX cloth noise], which tended to cause attention to itself.

As Abe’s career grew, so did the technology available. As equipment became more complex, Abe needed more people to help him create live soundscapes. He started to take aspiring theatrical sound designers under his wing.

Jonathan: Abe is my mentor.

That’s Jonathan Deans, a four-time Tony-nominated sound designer. In addition to his many Broadway credits, Jonathan works on shows all over the world including Cirque du Soleil.

Jonathan: When I started my career there were no schools that were teaching the subject. Sound was still very in its early stages for live musicals.

There wasn't really any technology, there wasn't anything to teach. I learned from actually doing things and just trying it. Everybody knew you were trying something and you're just putting something out there.

His first project with Abe was A Chorus Line at the Drury Lane Theater.

[SFX: Opening notes of “One” from A Chorus Line]

Jonathan: That was very interesting when Abe turns up with his show, Chorus Line, they're going to put delays in the theater, delay speakers. It's like, "What is that?"

Audio delay systems are something Abe introduced to Broadway that helped every seat in the house have the same audio experience.

Abe: Today, you can put loudspeakers at almost every place in the theater. Before, it was two boxes hung on either side of the proscenium that were of sufficient volume to reach the last row of the house, but a little discourteous to the folks in the front row.

Put speakers further back in the theater so that the front systems didn't have to be quite as loud.

The idea is simple, put speakers all over the room so you don’t have to blast a single set of them up at the front. But doing this presents a new challenge.

Music in

Sound is actually pretty slow. Imagine if you’re sitting near the back of the theater. The sound from the speakers at the front of the room will hit you later than the speakers at the back of the room, creating a very mushy sound.

If one speaker has its timing off from the rest by even a fraction of a second, even the most beautiful music becomes messy. Take for example, the music we’re hearing right now.

[SFX: Music boosted for a moment]

It sounds great because the music in both your speakers or headphoneis in sync. Now we’re going to play one of your speakers just a fraction of a second behind the other.

[SFX: Music delayed]

The delay system syncs up all the speakers so all of the sound reaches everyone in the theater equally and at the same time.

Music out

As sound technology improved so did other theatrical effects. Moving lights, projectors, and moving pieces of scenery gave the sound design a new job.

Abe: One of the other functions of the sound system today is to overcome the inherent noise floor of a lot of theatrical productions. The sound of moving lights [SFX: Moving light], of television video projectors [SFX: Projector added to the noise of moving lights], of scenery [SFX scenery moving added in to the cacophony], has all contributed to a higher level of background noise that the sound system has to overcome.

By introducing new technology into live theater, Abe changed more than just the sonic experience. His advancements allowed actors to change their performances from big to subtle.

Abe: Actors' voices need to rescale to reach the house at a proper level. They must be amplified. So what I ask myself is, "How much and by whom?" If all the gain comes from the actor, the price is unnatural diction, inappropriate tonal, emotional cues and stiff posture. But if the gain can come from a properly balanced acoustical system, then the actors can relax more, the speech becomes more natural, and the emotions meet the spoken word.

[SFX: Beginning of All that Jazz from Chicago]

Abe’s work didn’t just allow for intimate storytelling in large theaters, it also gave costume designers more freedom.

Abe: In Chicago in 1975, Gwen Verdon, the star, was going to wear a wireless microphone. She had on a very skimpy costume, and there was no place to hide the microphone or the transmitter. We came up with the idea of putting the transmitter and microphone in her wig. That was, I think, the first instance of the microphone being placed on the forehead of a performer.

The new mic placement was designed for the performer’s comfort, but it had an unintended bonus.

Abe: We discovered that the microphone on the forehead or above the ear was a much better placement for sound quality than being on the chest. It gave us a greater freedom of being able to mix the sound of that particular microphone and that performer.

As Abe brought live theater into the modern world and upgraded the sound systems of different productions, sound design became about more than just amplifying the sound of the show. It became about creating a soundscape that that helped tell the story along with performances, costumes, lighting, and all the other creative elements of theater.

[SFX: Begin “Don’t Cry for Me Argentina” from Evita]

Abe: Evita, at that time, had six wireless microphones in use. That was a big step forward trying to get all six to work at once.

The thundering voice of Eva Peron on the balcony of the Casa Rosada, certainly wasn't natural. But it was the reality of that situation, where she was addressing 1,000s of people and telling about her struggles to get where the Perons were. It was just the effect onstage that made you feel that you were part of that inauguration scene.

[SFX: continue song “Don’t cry for me Argentina….”]

Music in

The best sound system and the best sound design is one that's basically invisible now we have the equipment with which we are able to do that much easier. Modern microphones and loudspeaker systems are extremely linear and are capable of providing reinforcement with minimal detection. That's a goal.

Abe didn’t just increase the number of mics and speakers on Broadway, he also created jobs.

Abe: When I started out, it was basically just me and the sound operator.

There are now a lot of bodies involved.

Before I came to New York, the sound operator operated the sound from a console or from a mixer located backstage where he just turned the knobs up to a preset mark and that was it.

We were able to talk producers into giving up some seats and putting the sound equipment out in the house where the operator could hear.

They are the fifth member of the quartet.

Abe’s influence in live audio design was huge. He showed an entire industry that creating a soundscape is about more than just hanging speakers. He also trained so many amazing designers who took their talents all over the world. They changed every element of theater through sonic enhancement.

Abe: Sound reinforcement is not required for every production. Then again, neither are makeup, costumes, lighting, and staging.

Sound is as vital a creative element in the theater as any of the other design elements are.

The history of modern live event sound design began less than a-hundred years ago. In that time technology and methods have improved leaps and bounds. How we’re doing things now and where we might go in the future are truly mind blowing. 

In a few short decades sound design for live events went from almost no microphones or speakers to a critical part of every production. So what is modern sound design for live performances like today? Here’s Jonathan Deans again.

Jonathan: Sound has become very complicated due to the equipment that is available. As equipment becomes more complicated, there's less imagination therefore less creativity.

Every live event audio designer puts in tons of hours just to get a sound system up and running. Once it’s working, that’s just the beginning of the creative process.

Jonathan: If you're doing a Cirque du Soleil show, you're going to be involved in it for two to three years with big chunks of time away from the home. I'm talking weeks and sometimes months. I've actually done a production we were in tech for 15 months.

Jonathan doesn’t have a single sound setup that works for every show. He picks equipment based on the show’s story and the size and shape of the venue.

Jonathan: As sound designers we're confined to cabinets and speakers as we know it but beyond that there's nothing intentionally similar from one production to another. It's not cookie cutting and that excites me.

Music out

Sound design in theater can be never-ending. Especially for an enormous show like Cirque du Soleil. Jonathan recently went back to tweak the sound for Love, a show that uses Beatles music and premiered a decade ago.

Jonathan: There was a refresh done of the production there were new songs put in and there were different acts that were put in.

I went to see the show with Giles Martin and Paul Hicks and Leon Rothenberg, those are the four of us involved in the music "this needs a refresh," because it’s been running for ten years and the technology has evolved so much that the expectations are completely different.

That refresh turned into a total overhaul.

Jonathan: We ended up remixing the entire show just staying up all night when everyone had gone.

That’s because sound technology constantly evolves thanks to innovative ideas from designers like Jonathan.

Jonathan: What if? What if I could put speakers into the seats? What would that be like?"What would the person look like when they're hearing it? What would they be feeling it from? Would they be hearing it from behind? Is that weird?

After sketching out his ideas, Jonathan then puts those ideas into action to see if they work.

[Music in]

Jonathan: I did a show called KA and KA was the first time I had put speakers in the seats there was two speakers in every seat in the theater which is just under 2,000 seats. You could watch people walk in and sit down and we were playing sounds.

I watched a couple coming and the lady sat down. She heard the sounds coming out the speakers in the seats and I could see her point and say, “Look at this sound coming out of the seat, the back of the seat." The guy then leaned down and listened to his seat and put his ear and could hear the sounds coming out of his seat went, “Oh wow.”

He took his jacket off and then hung it on the back of the seat and cover the speakers.

[SFX: Music gets muffled from jacket]

He sat there for the entire show having heard the speakers before knew that they were there making the sound and covered, put his jacket, the shoulder part of it as it hugs the seat, went over the speakers and watched the whole show.

[SFX: Ka music out]

Not every new idea works, but sometimes the only way to know is to experiment with a live audience. That trial and error leads to some pretty awesome innovations, like new ways to track the movements of the actors on stage.

Jonathan: You put the device on the actor that is like an RFID tag, it transmits so you know where their standing, you know where their location is within a parameter which is in this case setup to be the stage, could be in a bigger spaces if you like. And so you know that that person is standing there.

Jonathan is using a modern version of Abe’s delay system to perform an amazing feat of technical sound.

Jonathan: The time delay within that actor's voice going out of certain speakers or all speakers, the delay is changing as it goes upstage downstage like it would if I was to go further away from you or closer to you there is a time difference that happens to when you receive me.

When you do that, when you track the actors nobody notices because it’s just natural.

That same technology isn’t just for tracking actors on stage.

Jonathan: You can put it onto a person like Peter Pan, flying around the room. It could be a sound like maybe it’s tinkerbell following.A sound follows them so you can put a sound effect that follows them so as the person’s moving around, going around the surround system [SFX: Move Tinkerbell sounds around the speakers] and you’re doing it because it’s not something that’s fixed. It has to be done live so you can track that person and or the sound effect that belongs to that person or an instrument.

When it comes to the future of sound for Broadway, it turns out that not only is creative thinking encouraged. It’s required. Here’s Abe again.

Abe: Unfortunately, I think the future of Broadway theater sound may tend to shy away from so many wireless microphones. The radio frequency spectrum is getting very crowded.

Broadway theaters back to back are anywhere from 40 to 60 transmission frequencies between wireless microphones, communications, walkie talkies, and things of that sort.

Broadway has many theaters in a close proximity. That means each device in each theater needs to have its own frequency to work properly. Otherwise you might be in the audience for Wicked…

[SFX: MUSIC: Defying Gravity from Wicked]

… and suddenly hear “Hakuna Matata” from the Lion King.

[SFX: Defying Gravity song mixed with Hakuna Matata]

Music in

Abe: Maybe we go back to some kind of wired microphone that can be utilized in some form. There will always be wireless microphones, just not in the quantity that there are today.

The future of sound design is full of challenges, but it also has enormous potential.

Jonathan: What I enjoy most about my job is enjoying the audience, being part of that journey that hopefully can add something to their life even if it’s only for those three hours.

Abe: Theater in itself is important. It's an explanation of the life and the times that we are living in, or the lives and times of heroic events in the past. You can't take away the impact of drama to the world. And if what sound can help create and contribute to that impact, then what we do is vital.

CREDITS

Twenty Thousand Hertz is made by the sound design team at Defacto Sound. If you’re interested in hearing what Defacto does, visit defactosound dot com. And if you work in the same industry. Drop a quick hello.

This episode was written and produced by James Introcaso… and me, Dallas Taylor. With help from Sam Schneble. It was edited, sound designed and mixed by Jai Berger.

Thanks to our guests, sound design legends Abe Jacob and Jonathan Deans. Abe’s retired now, but you can checkout more of Jonathan’s work at Designing Sound dot com.

The music in this episode is courtesy of our friends at Musicbed. Having great music should be an asset to your project, not a roadblock. Musicbed is dedicated to making that a reality. That’s why they’ve completely rebuilt their platform of world-class artists and composers with brand-new features and advanced filters to make finding the perfect song easier and faster. Learn more at musicbed.com/new.

Finally, go check out our website. There you can say hello, submit a show idea, give general feedback, read transcripts, or buy a t-shirt. That’s all at 20k.org. We’re also on Facebook and Twitter and I love hearing from listeners! So, reach out however you like.

Thanks for listening.

Music out

[00:30:39] Andy Leviss: Thanks again to Dallas and Casey for. Letting us share that episode with you. Uh, if you dug that, um, in between listening to episodes of me and Sean and all of our friends, blathering on here, go over to 20 k.org, their website, uh, take a, take a listen to some of the other episodes they got, subscribe to that.

Um, that's kind what I got. I don't know. You got anything, Sean?

[00:31:14] Sean Walker: Dude, that was cool. That was super cool to like go through that journey and, you know, see how one thing led to the next and it's, that's, that was sweet dude.

[00:31:22] Andy Leviss: Right. Like some, some of that is some cool shit. Like I, I wish we could do in like concerts too, but it's, uh, you're, you're not touring those, those wild, uh, circuit rigs that Jonathan's doing.

[00:31:31] Sean Walker: Challenge accepted.

[00:31:32] Andy Leviss: So yeah, Sean's like, wait, hang on. They packed small man.

[00:31:36] Sean Walker: Yeah, right. Totally, totally. Challenge accepted. Well, I think that's, I think that's probably a good place to stop though, Ben. Thank you to Allen and Heath and RCF for letting us Yap about audio for another week. That's the pod y'all. See you next week.

[00:31:55] Andy Leviss: And let me take a quick sip and remember to cut this out.

[00:32:00] Sean Walker: And you remember to cut this out.

[00:32:02] Andy Leviss: Yeah, thanks. Yay, bloopers.

Music: “Break Free” by Mike Green