Earthkeepers: A Circlewood Podcast on Creation Care and Spirituality
Earthkeepers: A Circlewood Podcast on Creation Care and Spirituality
One Step at a Time: Finding Recovery Together in the Outdoors, with John Vicory | Ep. 138
In this conversation, John Vicory shares his journey of recovery through the outdoor community OSAT (One Step at a Time). He discusses the importance of nature in healing, the diverse backgrounds of OSAT members, and how the organization fosters a supportive environment for those in recovery. John reflects on his personal struggles with addiction, the transformative power of outdoor activities, and the spiritual connections formed within the community. The conversation emphasizes the significance of connection, both to nature and to others, in the recovery process.
Earthkeepers episode 132: Finding Wholeness in Wilderness Adventure, with Jason Lyle
Takeaways
- OSAT is an outdoor club focused on recovery.
- The community includes people at various stages of recovery.
- John's journey highlights the struggle with alcohol addiction.
- Nature plays a crucial role in healing and recovery.
- OSAT provides a unique, supportive environment for recovery.
- Spirituality is an integral part of the OSAT experience.
- Connection to nature can lead to profound personal insights.
- Isolation can be detrimental to recovery efforts.
- The importance of community in the recovery process.
- Encouragement to seek nature and community for healing.
Keywords: OSAT, recovery, addiction, nature, community, healing, outdoor activities, spirituality, personal journey, support, One Step at a Time, Alcoholics Anonymous, higher power, Al Anon, indigeneity, Jim Hinkhouse
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Welcome to the Earthkeepers Podcast, where we engage in actionable conversations at the intersection of earthcare and spirituality. Our aim is to help you become better informed and practically equipped for a lifestyle of impactful earthkeeping that flows out of spiritual integration with the ecologies of your place. I'm Forrest Dinsley, your podcast host. While I approach these conversations from my own orientation as a Christ follower, this podcast shines light on the storied wisdom of all of us who share in common a love for the whole community of creation, whatever our ideological bent. In this episode, I want to introduce you to a man I love and respect, John Paul Vickery, and to share with you his story of recovery from alcohol addiction through healing encounters with the outdoors. I've known and admired John since he was a student of mine in the early 2000s. In our conversation about his recovery journey, John describes his involvement with an organization called One Step at a Time or OSAT, whose purpose it is to create communities of healing and sustained recovery through engagement with the outdoors. If you're struggling with any sort of addiction right now or care deeply about someone in your life who is facing such challenges, I know you're going to find both hope and practical wisdom in this conversation. However, given that each one of us is broken in some way, this conversation about finding healing in the outdoors has implications for all of us. Welcome, friends, to the Earthkeepers Podcast. John, my friend, it is so good to have you on the podcast. Maybe you could orient our listeners a bit and just give us a sense of where you live, who you live with, and what you're doing day to day.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Great to see you as always. Yeah, so I live in Kirkland, Washington with my wife and my two teenagers. And in my day job, I am the director of marketing at Utah Bothell, one of the University of Washington campuses that's up here in the Pacific Northwest.
SPEAKER_00:Well, we definitely want to hear more about your personal story, but the framework for our conversation is going to be the organization called OSAT or One Step at a Time. And maybe you could tell us what in general the organization is about and what kind of things the organization actually does, what kinds of activities it organizes, what the community is like.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. So OSAT or One Step at a Time, but it's an outdoor club and it's really based around recovery. So the founder, Jim Hinkhaus, was a mountaineer and he was also part of AA. And he had this vision to have an AA meeting at the top of Mount Rainier. So he gathered some friends that were also in recovery, and they built towards that. And they started with a meeting on a local mountain here called Tiger Mountain. And that was the first kind of OSAT meeting was this AA meeting on top of the mountain. And actually, currently to this day, after Jim Hinkhaus passed away, there is a plaque at the top of Tiger Mountain, and there's still meetings that occur there twice a week throughout the year where people in Osat, people in recovery, hike up the mountain and have an AA meeting on top of the mountain. Since it started, it's kind of expanded into other activities too. So mountaineering is part of that, but also car camping. We have a group that goes to Scotland and does the Highland Way every year. We have groups that go down to Central America and climb mountains down there. But locally, there's canoeing, camping, cycling, just kind of anything outdoors. You can usually find a group to get together and do that in Osat.
SPEAKER_00:So it's based in the Pacific Northwest, primarily, and clearly you do things uh all over the place. But I'm wondering, are there other organizations like Osat in other places that you know of?
SPEAKER_01:Um, even locally, there's a couple. There's one called Recovery Beyond, and I've heard of other ones just kind of in localized clusters around the states, but OSAT's definitely the biggest one up in this region. But I think that no matter where there are addicts and people that love the outdoors, they kind of go hand in hand a lot of the time. So while OSAT is primarily in the Northwest, I'm sure there's probably groups like OSAT all over the country.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that's important to point out because probably there will be people listening to this episode who think, oh, if only, if only I had something like that in my region. And I agree with you, chances are there are organizations like it. And if there aren't, it might not be such a hard thing to begin, right? I mean, you've got the outdoors, you've got community, and you've got human need. And uh, what happens when you put those things together? We talked to a friend Jason Lyle, who leads an organization like this in uh Georgia, for example, and it's had really powerful effects on the lives of people. My hope is actually that we talk to many more, because I think this is a powerful movement, this idea that presence and nature in the outdoors can actually affect pretty profound healing. Speaking of healing, I'm wondering what kind of people are coming to OSAT? Is it a certain kind of addiction, a certain level of addiction, or is it fairly open boundary in terms of what needs people are presenting?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we have all kinds of people that join OSAT that stay involved in OSAT. We have what we call old timers, those who have been in recovery for you know 30 plus years. We have people that join OSAT that are just new to recovery or they're still trying to get sober. And we're talking about all kinds of addictions, alcohol, drug use. But it's not just for people in recovery or people who are interested in recovery. It's also for their friends and family, too. So we have people who are in Al Anon, which is for family members of people who are addicts. So it's really just this community that's centered around recovery, but it's not exclusive to people who are in recovery. You don't have to have a certain amount of recovery time to be involved. It's just for those who want to get sober and those who are on the periphery who are supporting people who are trying to get sober too and bring them in.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I told my daughter about this because since high school, when she and her friends got uh addicted to vaping when so many people believed it was harmless, she doesn't like it that she vapes, and she has had a hard time setting that aside. She actually has profound connections to the outdoors, and I told her about this organization and she was really excited. So she may be joining you, but I guess that the point is that people like her would be welcome, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. And there's a saying in recovery that says we're not saints, we're just all people who are struggling or have struggled in one way or the other, and this is a way for us all to get together and really share that bond and really feel like you are connected to others who are like you, and that makes the road ahead a lot easier.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I checked with you in advance that I could ask you about this, but I think you have a very powerful story to tell in terms of why you're part of this group. So I wonder if you could uh maybe recant that for us just so we know where you're coming from.
SPEAKER_01:So my recovery journey started in probably 2015, 2016, really. So, you know, 10 years ago now, where I just really found it difficult to live with myself and the decisions I was making and the addiction that I had to alcohol. It was like a toxic friend, uh like a toxic relationship where I couldn't live with alcohol in my life, but I also couldn't live without alcohol in my life. And it was really just starting to affect everything in my life. The list when I would go to the doctor of the conditions that were slowly just killing me. So there was my health, there was also my relationship. I had two young children at the time, and one of my biggest goals in life is to be a good dad. And so I was noticing that this was starting to be a barrier between my ability to be a father and be there for my kids and my wife. And then at work too. I was skipping out on work, I was making excuses that I was sick, I wasn't fully present in my job. And that's really, I think, the bottom line of all of it is that I wasn't present. All I could think about was how to get the next drink. And it was really miserable. So I started going to AA meetings, I tried to start weaning myself off of alcohol, setting all these goals, and and nothing was really working. But in August of 2019, I missed an activity with my kids that I had signed up for. And I spent, you know, the weekend just drunk, just unable to do anything really. And I said, enough is enough, really. And that day I went to the hospital to start a detoxing process. I actually thought I was gonna die, so I spent the night in the ER. And the next day I got a bed at a local inpatient treatment facility, and that was August 11th of 2019. And so I spent 30 days in the recovery program inpatient. I spent another nine months in an outpatient facility, and I went to 90 meetings in 90 days, AA meetings, to really just solidify the foundation and the commitment to myself that this is what I wanted to do. And it was about a year and a half after that that somebody in my recovery group mentioned that he was going to join this outdoor club and do this climbing course that teaches you how to climb Mount Rainier. And he asked if anybody wanted to join. And I said yes. I I grew up riding my bike all the time, hiking um in Colorado. And and I always felt like being outside was like part of who I was. And that's something that that really went away in over the course of my addiction. I I did not feel like myself. I didn't enjoy anything, didn't enjoy any activity. So when this opportunity came up, uh I said yes. And it was one of the best decisions I ever made because now I'm surrounded by people who are like me, who have the same interests, who get the same amount of fulfillment out of being in the outdoors and challenging yourself physically. Such a foundational part of my life now is being in OSAT with people in recovery. Most of my friends these days are in recovery, are part of OSAT. Not only can we go out and enjoy the outdoors together, but we can talk about what's going on in our lives, the struggle of recovery and living life on life's terms, which is one of the hardest things to do as a recovering addict.
SPEAKER_00:I appreciate your vulnerability uh in telling us that story. I care for you a lot, and I have a long history with you. Uh, I met you in the early 2000s when uh you became a graduate student in the program that I was heading up. And I remember being so impressed with you even in your interview. I remember it to this day, hearing about your work using art for social change, uh, photography in particular, hearing the stories about your work against sex trafficking. So I've just really had an admiration and deep care for you even since that point. So so when you told me your story of struggle, it was really impactful. It really kind of broke my heart. And I I had to ask myself afterwards, why am I really so affected by this? Why is it uh hurting me in a way? And clearly it's because I care about you, but uh, I think I also was having to really recall the stories of my my mom's struggle with alcoholism. Ultimately, she died when I was a sophomore in college due to alcohol-related complications. So I just have not generally been a hopeful person when it comes to people struggling with that issue in particular, just because my experience has taught me not to hope. So I will also say that in hearing the story of your recovery, that's also been really impactful for me. It's like giving me new hope that people can be changed and transformed and healed by experiences uh of nature, of the outdoors. Hearing the story of your recovery has helped me to process my own experience. But more than anything, it's just made me really, really happy for you to see uh that you found this powerful catalyst for healing and found a community that can stand with you. So again, I appreciate your story. I'm sure that many of our listeners do as well. And my hope is that it will give them hope. So thanks for being honest like that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm wondering if you could maybe dig in a little bit and tell us more about why you think OSAT works, Osat or programs like it, and maybe even more generally, what is it about your experience of the outdoors that has made the difference for you? If that's even describable, I know there's something ethereal about that, right? But how do you make sense of it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think for some people, spending time in the outdoors, even if they're not struggling with addiction or in recovery, they do gravitate to the outdoors. There is something healing about being in the outdoors. And there's also a lot of research that has been done about spending time in the outdoors. You've probably seen headlines about like people in Finland live the happiest lives of anybody on earth, and it's because they make time, their life is intertwined with being out in nature, and it is something so profound. So in Osat, one of the main ways that people come into the club is through the glacier climbing course, and it's this six-month course where you really learn skills how to be safe on mountains like Mount Rainier, where there's crevasses and there's potential to fall and you're roped up. So you learn all these things. And part of the capstone is a graduation climb. And for my graduation climb, seven other students and four instructors, we all climbed El Dorado Peak in the North Cascades out here in Washington. And we had an AA meeting at Base Camp. And the next morning we summited this peak, and it was such an emotional summit, not just physical, but an emotional summit where over the previous six months, I had really realized that I could do hard things in the outdoors. I could push myself with all these people, these brothers and sisters who experienced the same thing I was going through. But standing there on the mountaintop, it was just this profound realization that I didn't ever have to go back to the way life was before. And from that time on, this connection between being outdoors and challenging myself physically. And, you know, some of those challenges are mental and emotional too. I mean, one of the reasons that people get into drugs and alcohol and other addictions is because they need that escape. They need to put aside their emotions to get out of their head. I can go down to the corner store and get everything I need to create that escape, but spending hours on a trail alone with your thoughts, and you really come face to face with a lot of those inner struggles. But also being out in nature is almost the antidote to that, too. And so there really is this connection about the intense and the surreal beauty of the landscape that really puts a lot of other things in perspective.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, do some guiding and and facilitation for an organization called the Seminary of the Wild. And uh, the main purpose really of the program is to help people to reconnect to nature with the assumption that connection is in fact our natural state, that on a physical level, on a spiritual level, on an emotional level, we are meant to live more in integrated harmony with the places where we live and the ecologies where we live. And the organization that I work for called Circlewood, we have that as one of our goals as well, helping people to undo the disconnection that is really so prevalent in Western culture in particular, you know, the ways that our culture raises us and teaches us to think fosters disconnection. And I have actually heard some people say that one of the reasons that people are sick or addicted or gravitate toward escapist activities is in part because of the disconnection. We're not living our lives as as they're meant to be. We're not whole people because of that disconnection.
SPEAKER_01:When do you lead people through this kind of practice? What have you noticed from the beginning when people are just entering it? How they develop and who they are kind of at the end of that experience?
SPEAKER_00:Probably most people come into programs like this because they know that something's missing. Maybe they've had enough experience of relationship with creation that they see something is there and maybe just don't quite know how to access that. If you really look at the way that so many of us were raised, the sense that we belong to nature, that we're part of nature, it's been beaten out of us, right? You know, we're taught to stand apart from it and to act upon it, to commodify it, see it as resource, uh, as something to be used, but not something to be to be part of, to belong to. So I would say that when it comes to reconnection, it it's a lot about changing worldview. It's about undoing harmful teachings that have led us into this place. It's about bringing a critical perspective to those assumptions that are part of that worldview, right? That that we are in fact separate, that we're not animals. So I think those are the places of resistance. So a lot of the work that I do is to give people a framework for different kinds of experience. I mean, you can teach against worldviews that are harmful and destructive and teach more positive ways of looking at nature, but what's really going to change people, as I'm sure you will agree, is experience. Understanding that viscerally, emotionally, spiritually, physically, that connection, that's the only way really that we're changed and realize what else is possible. So a lot of what I and my colleagues do is to help provide frameworks for experience. And I'm thinking about Osat. And I love the fact that that first experience is a course on glacier safety. It gives a framework for people to be out there, it gives them a reason to be out there, it puts some safe parameters around it, it gives them some rules for being and behaving, and it gives them people to be with. I mean, all of those I think are safety-giving, security-giving frameworks that then make way for the real work of experience to happen, encounter really, with the natural world. And uh, I think we need more of that because so many of us are in this separated place that we need help to get back to a different place. And Osad is absolutely doing that for people. I really love the work.
SPEAKER_01:When you think about who humans are, we've advanced so much technologically that really our brains are still wired for hunter-gatherer mentality to be in tune with the nature that's around us. But then we have this advanced technology that's really distracting and takes us away from what our brains are really meant for and capable of. And we don't really know how to deal with that. So by connecting, by getting back out in nature, it really puts things in perspective, but it also helps get our minds back to a place of peace. We're able to be more mindful, we're able to process at a much slower pace, a pace that you know evolutionarily is more our speed than to have all this constant input around us at all times.
SPEAKER_00:We've spoken on this podcast a number of times to indigenous theologian Randy Woodley, and uh he encourages people to return to their indigenity, to find the connection to the generations when they were sort of last indigenous, because we all were at one point in terms of our lineage. And he says we should all realize that there is that inherent indigenous way of being that belongs to all of us, and that somehow we've got to reconnect to that. He would say that that's the path toward becoming whole people. And so to live more indigenously, more connected means to be playing the part that we ought to be playing for the sake of ourselves, but also for the sake of ecology.
SPEAKER_01:When you're in nature and when you see the beauty, and when you notice the beauty, you want to care for that beauty at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Well, you've mentioned Alcoholics Anonymous a couple of times, and clearly there's a real integral relationship with AA and with Osat. Can you describe that relationship? Are there things that Osat does maybe above and beyond, or maybe more uniquely than AA does in terms of their approaches to recovery? Or is it just AA in the woods?
SPEAKER_01:A lot of it is AA in the woods, but it's contextualized to this adventurous spirit, to this connection that we've been talking about. AA in the meeting halls, it does feel different than spending time with people in recovery in the outdoors. The way that I can describe it is there's something to a face-to-face conversation that's great that is needed, but there's something different about walking side by side with somebody with a different destination in mind. And there's actually been studies that have been done even in the corporate world, where if you need to have a difficult conversation with an employee or a manager or something like that, one of the recommendations is to take a walk and to talk about that difficult situation, walking side by side with someone. It takes a lot of the stress and anxiety off of that face-to-face conversation. You're able to talk more openly when you're walking side by side. And there's a camaraderie there that you just don't get in the traditional meeting halls of AA. And I think it's powerful. People that are in OSAT still go to meetings, but the fullness of their recovery is experienced in OSAT in the outdoors with other people that are like them.
SPEAKER_00:Now, AA has uh a kind of generalized spiritual sensibility, right? And they'll talk about higher power quite freely. Does that carry over into OSAT? Let's say if you're talking about conversation, is there a sense that in OSAT experiences you're also entering into conversation perhaps with other beings in creation? Or do we even take it that far? Is it more just activity-centered?
SPEAKER_01:It is activity-centered, but it becomes so much more than that. A lot of people in OSAT would even just say that OSAT as a community is their higher power, or communing with nature is their higher power. And it's what really helps to keep them sober in ways that just attending meetings doesn't do. They're able to find themselves in that community almost like an act of not worshiping in the environment, but in a state of spiritual connection in ways that a lot of people don't experience in the meeting rooms.
SPEAKER_00:You could almost say that if you call that spirituality or you call that God, one could imagine that that really where that resides is in the relationships, is in the connections, connections people to people, but connections to the wilderness as well, connections to you know the other beings and nature.
SPEAKER_01:Spirituality is certainly a part of it. It's hard not to uh have these experiences like being on that mountaintop with these 11 other people and not feel something. I still even get choked up when a group of us have done something hard or have done something together that's beautiful and we have that shared connection. It's hard not to relate that as a spiritual experience. We recover because of spiritual experience. It is this psychic and spiritual change that happens. And how each person defines that might be a little bit different, but there's certainly spirituality out in the wilderness.
SPEAKER_00:In an earlier conversation that we had, uh you mentioned that the Osat community has, in a sense, become church for you. What did you mean by that? And what's your story of involvement in more conventional church? And how is Osat qualitatively different?
SPEAKER_01:So I was raised fairly conservative, Christian, Pentecostal, even. So the ritual of going to church, of singing hymns, of singing songs, of praise and worship was integral to how I grew up. I even went to a Christian school from kindergarten through tenth grade. Uh, went to a Christian college, got involved in missionary activity after college. So, you know, that side of religion really has deep roots within my psyche. And the thing that I love about that is that you have this community of people that have a shared experience. And so when I found Osat, I had left the church and was craving that connection with other people. And so I think when I mentioned that OSAT had become like a church for me, it gave me that connection to others who are like me, who we share that common bond with. We share a common belief that through work we can recover and we can participate in our own lives. I see other people around me who don't have that shared connection or that shared community. And it feels like there's something missing from their lives.
SPEAKER_00:You know, something you told me before was about the death of a friend of yours. And I think it is important to mention that in a sobering, balancing kind of way, because it's not all about hope and rainbows, right? There are real costs to addiction in people's lives. I'd love to hear how you're processing that. In particular, are there ways that you need to remind yourself to hold on to hope despite the setbacks like that in the community?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. This friend of mine was a deeply, deeply caring person, and he really, really wanted to change his life, and he couldn't find that key that worked for him. And he was not an outdoorsy person. I invited him to a couple of the Osat activities, but it was not his cup of tea. And so, you know, even clubs like Osat might not be for everybody, and I really do wish that he would have found something that was working. It takes a certain amount of openness to change too. And I actually went to the climbing gym yesterday with some people and brought up that um my friend had passed, and it is a reminder that this is life and death. It really is life and death. And oftentimes you hear about people who have really succumbed to their addiction and death being the most likely outcome without recovery. And so, yes, it's a sobering conversation because that could easily, easily be any one of us. There's a saying in AA that says, There but for the grace of God go I. And it's a realization that sobriety and recovery is probably the single most important thing in our lives, because without it, that's how we end up. That is the natural recourse. Of addiction is death. So, yes, we feel sad that they couldn't get it, they didn't have that spiritual experience that really put them on solid footing. But it's also a reminder that we need to be the vigilant and stay connected and stay part of the group and stay in community with others like us, not isolated. Isolation is the worst thing for an addict. So being part of something that's bigger than ourselves is one of the ways that we can stave off that natural recourse of addiction.
SPEAKER_00:I have a feeling that these sorts of conversations have much broader implications even than we realize, right? I mean, we're speaking about problems that to people seem insurmountable. So I appreciate your vulnerability. Thank you. When you think about our listeners all over the world, I wonder what you would say to them if they want to take this further, if they want to explore the connection between personal recovery and healing and engagement with the natural world, and maybe just as important, engagement with community among people who also are seeking those things. What might you tell them? What encouragement could you give them and even act of advice about how to take this to the next step?
SPEAKER_01:I'm really fortunate to live in the Pacific Northwest where we have access to mountains and the sound and lakes and rivers, forests that are just absolutely beautiful. But I think that there's something about connecting to nature no matter where you are. I mean, even if you live in the middle of a city, there are those opportunities for beauty no matter where you are. I came across some research from the University of Washington that talks about this concept called Friluftiv. I'm probably butchering the name, but it's a Norwegian idea that really people can benefit no matter where you are, no matter who you are, even if you're place bound. And it starts by practice, like anything else. And that's going out and just being aware of how nature is finding a way if you live in the city, or how nature makes a way if you do have access to some outdoor and wild places. But it also starts in your house, taking inventory of what you are watching, what you let into your body, how you distract yourself, and even just taking inventory can cause a profound change in your own awareness, in your own perception. For people who are struggling with addiction or new to recovery, find an AA meeting and really get to know some of the people. There might be a small group in that meeting that you can take a walk with, that you can find a short hike with, maybe build on these experiences and start inviting others to be part of that community. And OSAT was started in 1990 by Jim Hinkhaus, and it was just him and some buddies from Boeing. But now it's this organization with close to 500 annual participants who get out on countless adventures with each other. So, yes, it can start small, it can start with just a few people, but I think people will find that once they start taking those steps outdoors, that they'll find that other people are also in need of that connection too, and that yourself and the people around you can really benefit from just spending that time, that intentional time out in nature.
SPEAKER_00:So that was my friend John Vickery, a man who bears powerful witness to the power of nature to heal. You can learn more about Osat in the episode's show notes. And if you haven't listened to my conversation with Jason Lyle on this topic, we'll put a link to episode 132 in the show notes as well. As John and I discussed, more and more people are discovering their need for reconnection to nature. And oftentimes their way into that discovery begins with a deep need for healing that has everything to do with their disconnection from the natural world. For any of us who are struggling with addictive behaviors, who are people in our lives that are, perhaps John's story has given you some hope and even some practical ideas of actions you can take to help yourself and to help others find communities of recovery. As John noted, you might be able to find some kind of wilderness recovery group already established where you live. More to the point, though, you might want to ask yourself, what is standing in the way of my stepping up to organize new opportunities for people to do things together in the outdoors? Good things often start small, and all it takes to make a beginning is two or three folks mobilized around a shared interest in nature-based recovery. Of course, experiencing the healing power of nature is something that every one of us needs to be whole, whether or not we struggle with addiction. I hope this conversation with John challenges you to take stock of your own life and to ask yourself, what changes might I make to remove distractions that keep me from pursuing wholeness and collaboration with nature? What new practices might help me to have a stronger sense of integration and personal connection with the community of creation where I live? Or maybe most importantly, how can I get involved with others who care about these things like I do? We're all walking this path together, friends. One step at a time. Earthkeepers Podcast is a production of Circlewood, an organization that encourages people to pursue a more ecologically conscious faith. Our executive producer is James Amadon, and our sound engineer is Dave Olfers. Justlyn Gentry is our communications manager, and Forrest Reed and Levian Poltavsky are the composers of our original music. I am Forrest Insley, your podcast host, and I'm really grateful for the time you spent listening to this episode. If you would, help us expand our reach by following or subscribing to this podcast on your favorite listening platform. And be sure to go to our website to sign up for our podcast newsletter. If you know someone who would benefit from hearing this podcast conversation, it would be great if you could send them a link. In any case, I hope you'll join us again for our next episode of the Earthkeepers Podcast.