Salon culture and the art of hosting conversations that matter with Justine Kolata

072 The age of connectivity was supposed to give everyone a voice and spread liberal values around the world, but instead public discourse in the digital town square has been reduced to 280 characters and cynical memes shared with strangers.  In contrast to the dumpster fire of social media is the rich tradition of a salon culture that thrived during the age of enlightenment.  From the ferment of these social gatherings flowed a new world of reason and possibility, including egalitarian systems of self governance and the inalienable rights that have come to define the West, but are now under threat.

Innate to the experience of salons is the pursuit of meaning, connection and beauty.  As more of life is lived online there are fewer spaces in the real world where diverse people and perspectives can engage in healthy and spirited exchange about things that truly matter.  In this episode of Awake In Relationship I speak with Justine Kolata, a philosopher, salonnière and author of In Pursuit of the Beautiful Soul about reviving the art of conversation as an antidote to online toxicity and restoring hope in a brighter future through holding space for beauty and heartfelt dialogue.

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Transcript

Mission: Restore Real-World Connection

Silas Rose 0:00

Hello, dear listener. My name is Silas Rose, and welcome to another episode of Awake In Relationship. A big part of my personal mission and the podcast is really around restoring connection in the real world. I think there's a real growing awareness around the loneliness epidemic and the role that technology plays in that, but also a persistent fatalism, that there's really nothing we can really do about it, besides installing another app to monitor our screen time or uh turning off our notifications and making a conscious effort to get out to a yoga class. While these are important, it's not really gonna move the needle in terms of our social well-being. Call me old fashion. But I really believe that we need to practice the art of conversation. Mono emano. Which is why I'm excited to present to you this conversation with Justine Kolata, a modern salonaire, who has been hosting salons for the last 10 years in London, England. In stark contrast to the dumpster fire of social media is the rich intellectual tradition of the salon dating back to the Enlightenment period. From the cultural ferment of these social gatherings flowed a new world, of possibility, reason, and artistic expression. If you're lucky enough to live in a free and open society, you can credit salons as one of the important incubators for the inalienable human rights and systems of self-governance in the West that are now under threat. In this conversation, I speak with Justine about her book, In Pursuit of the Beautiful Soul, and restoring hope for a brighter future through beauty and enlightened dialogue. If you've ever contemplated hosting a salon, this episode is for you.

Justine Kolata 2:32

Thank you so much for having me.

Silas Rose 2:35

I want to kind of start with uh you know your whole journey

Meet Justine: Path To Salon Culture

Silas Rose 2:40

to becoming a salonnière. Is that how you say it, salonnière?

Justine Kolata 2:44

Yeah, salonnière.

Silas Rose 2:48

Um my French is not so good. I'm a bad Canadian. So yeah, what was what was the original kind of inspiration?

Justine Kolata 3:01

Yeah, well, you know, I first learned about the history of salon culture in university. Um I took a course that explored explored it. Um and, you know, at this time I was in an environment where I was very stimulated intellectually. I loved exploring ideas and questions about life, you know, with my professors and classmates. And I realized that outside of the university setting, we've lost the art of conversation. There are no real spaces left for the discussion of ideas, at least I found. Um, and you know, when we meet up with friends, we often talk about you know the basic facts of our lives or more superficial topics, but we rarely discuss our deeper belief systems and opinions. Um so that I kind of thought it was necessary for for one's, you know, development, one's ability to connect with other people on a more profound level to have these deeper conversations. And, you know, I realized that, you know, democracy can only really flourish when people inform themselves about various topics, not only those that relate to their interests or their profession, um, and learn from others in the process. And, you know, the history of salon culture I found absolutely fascinating. Um, I was so interested in the fact that salons were at the center of some of the greatest intellectual and artistic movements, and that salon culture contributed to a public sphere in Europe. And so I thought that this was exactly the type of enlightened social exchange and community life that was desperately needed in our kind of lonely and isolated age of technology. Um, and I really believed that, you know, virtual communication can never replace communities in physical space. So that's basically why I started it.

Silas Rose 4:48

You know, you're you're a person of the book, as it were. You're a trained philosopher. How was that kind of leap uh you know to kind of being the center of attention as a as a host?

Justine Kolata 5:00

Yes, well, it's it's very different. I mean, I love that, you know, on the one hand, you can have the theory of, you know, certain ideas, and then you have the practice. And that's what's so great about salon culture is you know seeing the two come to come together. Um and you know, I've always enjoyed, you know, organizing, you know, cultural events and and hosting people. And so I really love seeing these ideas come to life in a social setting.

Silas Rose 5:27

So in your book, In Pursuit of the Beautiful Soul, you talk about salon as being kind of a microcosm of life. What do you mean by that?

Justine Kolata 5:38

Yeah, well, you know, salons are a very intense experience, I would say. Um, you know, I've I've had salons where people, you know, they don't know anything about the other people's, you know, family background or what they do for a living, but they know about their opinion on it, you know, if a soul exists or if they believe in free will. So you have these much stronger bonds that are formed more quickly because you have these in-depth conversations. And so also in a salon, there's so much, you know, uh sensory and intellectual stimulation. There's art and music that's performed, there are different personality types, there are different ideas and belief

Salons As A Microcosm Of Life

Justine Kolata 6:15

systems that are uh explored. And so it's really this condensed version of life, and you learn so much about yourself and the world and the human condition when you're in the space of the salon.

Silas Rose 6:27

Hmm. It'd be really helpful if, you started to touch on this a bit, but just to give us a little bit of a history lesson on um on salons and particular the sort of culture milieu that they grew out of.

Justine Kolata 6:46

Yes. Um well, yeah, salons originally they're a 16th-century Italian invention, um, but they really blossomed in 17th and 18th century Europe, particularly in France. Uh France is, you know, most well known for their salons. Um but there was some form of salon culture in most European countries at this time period. Um and the salon salonniers were often friends and collaborators. They attended each other's events, they exchanged ideas, they formed a network of salons. Lots of the French salonniers would come to the German salons and vice versa. Um so they differed obviously cross-culturally, but there were certain similarities between them. So, for example, most salons, you know, would have a topic, the salonier would choose a topic that would be discussed among salon participants. Also, art and culture was very important to the experience of the salon. So, you know, music was performed in the space of the salon, or you know, art was hung on the walls of the salon. Um, and so salon culture kind of flourished in in social and political environments, I would say, that in which art and culture and ideas were valued. So, for example, in the case of the German salons, Friedrich the Great was a ruler who believed himself to be uh a kind of philosopher-king. He firmly uh believed in the principles of the enlightenment, and he wanted to create a more educated population. Um he was also passionate about French culture and ideas and and turned their salon to turn to their salons as a model of enlightened socializing, which he wished to replicate in Germany. So in that was the kind of context in which salon culture blossomed there.

Silas Rose 8:29

And this known as the period of enlightenment, yeah?

Justine Kolata 8:33

Yes, yes. This was um, you know, the the salons came from the period of the enlightenment and enlightenment ideals, but they were also, you know, influenced by the the romanticism, the turn towards emotions and feeling. And there was an interesting intersection between these, you know, ideas about advancing rationality and and the pursuit of knowledge with also the concern for you know the human condition and exploring different emotional states. And so it was a really beautiful synthesis of the two.

Silas Rose 9:04

What salon culture a response to? Um was there the same kind of kind of polarization, balkanization that we're experiencing?

Justine Kolata 9:15

Interesting. Well, you know, it varies, but you know, there was yes, there were many different, you know, things at play there, you know, but I would say that in general it was more that um people were interested in the discussion of ideas at that time, you know, s art and uh artistic and cultural life was flourishing for various reasons during this period. And so that's why salons kind of emerged um in a an environment

History: Enlightenment To Romanticism

Justine Kolata 9:45

that was conducive to to this. People were interested in discussing ideas uh uh together. And um yeah, and so I don't know today how that would, you know. I think that salons can emerge in times that are, you know, more enlightened, where people want to discuss ideas, and also as a response to, you know, less enlightened times.

Silas Rose 10:09

So Im really curious about the profile of a salonnière. Like I know that this is kind of a long rich tradition, it's a philosophical tradition that really goes back to the time of Aristotle and Plato. But what I found really curious , you know, from reading a book is many of the proponents of salons in the 17th and 18th century were you know, women and Jews. And I'm wondering why you think that was the case.

Justine Kolata 10:43

Well, yes, most salons were run by women, and I think this was because, you know, women at this time could not necessarily take part in cultural or political affairs, so they kind of created their own cultural institution within the sphere of the home. Um and this was really interesting because it was kind of a semi-public, semi-private sphere. So they opened their homes to others, they opened their homes to a public for intellectual and cultural exchange. And this was a kind of genius idea. It was it was very interesting, you know, unusual idea. And and since their salons were so popular, so many people loved attending their salons, so many great intellectuals and artists of the time came to their salons to learn from others, to collaborate. Um, these women gained, you know, great influence. Um, and they definitely advanced the place of women in in society and intellectual life. Um, and with regards to the Jewish salons, my yeah, my research really focused on the salons of Jewish women in Berlin, um, particularly Rachel Varnigin and Henrietta Hertz. And so I was interested in their in their advancement of the philosophy of the beautiful soul within their salons. That's why I was really interested in the Jewish salons, because unlike the French salons, uh, which didn't necessarily have a philosophical underpinning, the German salons were really based on uh buildung, this idea of self-cultivation and the philosophy of the beautiful soul. Um, and you know, German Jewish salons were the most famous and important um of that time. Um, this was kind of in the context of the Jewish Enlightenment or the Haskalah, which promoted rationality and religious tolerance and secular education. And, you know, the Jewish Enlightenment came at a time of economic prosperity for the Prussian Jewish elite. There were many great Jewish intellectuals during this period, such as Moses Mendelssohn, who were really passionate about advancing the principles of the Enlightenment and the arts and culture. And so Jewish women were really inspired by these ideas and they believed that through civil dialogue people could become more educated and more tolerant. Um and so they tried to enact this philosophy of the beautiful soul and this concept of self-cultivation and the idea that one must aspire to kind of improve oneself for the sake of humanity. Um and yeah, and so that was really the the grounding of the German Jewish salons.

Silas Rose 13:16

I I've attended and also kind of hosted um salon, um kind of air quote salon-like events. Um but I really don't think they they would compare to the kind of experiences that you curate. I would really love , if you could kind of sort of paint a picture for us as someone attending one of your events. What would a typical evening look like? What would people be seeing and be experiencing?

Justine Kolata 13:50

Yes, of course. Well, yeah, I I mean I think that the word salon is used quite loosely today. You know, um people use the word to describe lectures often. Um, but to me, what makes a salon a salon is this emphasis on shared dialogue amongst the participants, um the idea that everyone can take part in the conversation and there's no hierarchy of knowledge. Um also I think that the aesthetic of the space is really essential to salon culture. So, you know, a salon hosted

Women, Jewish Salons, And Bildung

Justine Kolata 14:20

in a conference room type setting, which is where most of our conversations take place these days, is I don't think really conducive to a salon conversation because it's more sterile and functional. Um, so it's really important to, I think the home was so important to the salon, creating a beautiful environment within the home. And so within my own, you know, salons, I always try to find a beautiful space to host the salon. Um, I'll often host them in in my own home to keep in tradition with the history of salon, to keep in in line with the history of salon culture. Um so in preparing for a salon, you know, I fill the home with art and flowers and food and music. I try and make the space this kind of beautiful oasis. Um and then in terms of the structure of the salon, pe participants arrive, um, I'll greet them and introduce them to one another. That was a really important part of in the history of salon culture, the salonier facilitate facilitated these connections so that people could collaborate and and you know meet friends. Um so people will, you know, converse informally before the salon. And then we'll sit down in a circle for a conversation. And I always choose the topic in advance. Um, and the topics are so general, I mean, it ranges greatly. Some sometimes it's more in you know, philosophy or the arts or science. It's really, it really varies. It's not so much about the topic, it's more about the act of just engaging with different ideas. And so, you know, I've had salons on the philosophy of wonder or jealousy or narcissism, you know, just a broad range of topics. And the the whole point is that anyone can discuss these ideas. You don't need to be an expert. Um, and so every, you know, everyone might have an opinion about, you know, certain topics, but they might not necessarily explore them. Um and so this this space allows them to do that. Um and to facilitate to facilitate the conversation, I usually um think of questions in advance. Um, I call it a conversation menu to kind of gently guide the conversation. And so then I'll moderate the debate and I'll attempt to give it structure and direction. Um and then once the conversation is finished, there's usually some, you know, musical or artistic element. Um, oftentimes I'll have music that's performed in the salon, and this is kind of a nice way of unifying the various perspectives through the experience of beauty. Um yeah, and then people stay afterwards and continue the conversation in smaller groups, um, which is always fun because sometimes the best conversations emerge once the larger conversation has been um had and and people can flush out these ideas uh in greater depth together.

Silas Rose 17:19

And sounds sounds beautiful. Um how many people usually attend these?

Justine Kolata 17:27

Well, I you know, I say that I think 12 is a really nice number for conversation, but in my salons I have like 30 or 40 people often because I don't like saying no. I like I like when people come. And also it it's more vibrant. So, you know, not everyone necessarily has to speak. Sometimes people just like to come to listen. Uh but uh, you know, it it's it's quite fun when there's a big group and you're all sitting around and talking and and yeah, so they do get quite large.

Silas Rose 18:02

There is some sort of misconception, I think, around salons, a people might consider it something, you know, exclusive to maybe Elite's , t he powdered wig crowd. But uh again from your book, it became really clear that there is this really kind of egalitarian o agnostic undertone that that's really facilitated. So so as the host, how how do you select people or how do people find your salons?

Justine Kolata 18:36

Yeah, well I so I when I first started my salons, I it was kind of you know, word of mouth, friends of friends, and then it extended to really, you know, I've met so many people through the salons. Um I kind of tried to maintain a principle of you know openness, like if people contact me and um I uh you know and ask to be invited, I'll, you know, uh say yes, they will come to the salon. So it's mostly strangers, but then there becomes this core community of people who come

Inside A Modern Salon Evening

Justine Kolata 19:05

back. And so it's really nice because you you really, I mean, I've met so many fascinating people through the salon. It it draws a really interesting and vibrant, you know, crowd, uh, people who just really want to discuss ideas together and are curious. Um, so that's been one of the best parts of of the whole experience.

Silas Rose 19:23

I'm wondering as a facilitator, when especially when you encounter strong differences or conflict, how you how you kind of work through that in the space.

Justine Kolata 19:38

Yeah. Well, uh, you know, I find that in general the salon attracts people who are kind of willing to engage in civil discourse and you know, they know that the whole purpose of a salon is to consider different ideas and perspectives. Um, and so they're generally pretty respectful of that. Um and yeah, I think that, you know, you know, the mark of an enlightened society is one in which you can politely and respectfully challenge each other's ideas and disagree, um, and also have the ability to change your own beliefs when another perspective is rationally and compellingly, you know, communicated. Um, so, but, you know, of course there'll be, you know, uh difference in of opinions, and it's really the role of the Salonnier to kind of guide productive discourse. So, you know, in the past, the Salonniers, I I I love this, they compare themselves to conductors, and their role was to harmonize the various voices to form this like cohesive, beautiful whole. And I think that's yeah, the role of a salonier is to kind of intuit the subtle evolution of the group dynamic, to, you know, intervene if the conversation goes off on a tangent or if someone says something that's not constructive, and to keep, you know, to teach to keep the conversation, you know, polite and respectful and productive, but also not to moderate too much so so that people feel free, you know, expressing different ideas and comfortable, you know, in the space.

Silas Rose 21:08

So if uh someone was listening and was really curious about hosting their own salon, and I really do feel like this is kind ofo public service at this point. I think we really have to, you know, get off our devices and and start talking again.

Justine Kolata 21:26

Yeah.

Silas Rose 21:27

What what sort of advice would you give for for getting started?

Justine Kolata 21:32

Yeah, well, um well, I think that you know it's really important to consider your, you know, interests and aesthetic. Um what type of conversations uh do you want to have? Are there any particular topics you're passionate about? Um I think every salon, what makes them interesting is that they're, you know, the it the personality and interests of the the host are really, you know, they flavor the salon. And all the salon saloners in the past, they all had different, you know, interests and and ideas, and that really colored their salon and and made it this vibrant experience. So so thinking about that, thinking about what one can bring to the salon to make it unique. And then also I think you know, training oneself to moderate is really important. That's that's the key because you know, a moderator is really necessary for the conversation to flow, to have a structure, to have, you know, a conclusion. Um, so developing those skills. And also just reading a lot, um, you know, it's it's wonderful when people have interesting anecdotes. I many of my salam participants are just these people that have so many interests and they bring these fascinating um stories, and that really just makes the conversation so stimulating and interesting. So doing trying to do that oneself, reading a lot about the topic beforehand to think about you know different questions one could pose is very important. And then, you know, finally, I I think that sustaining the community is essential. It's very easy to do a one-off event, but the reason salons were such an important uh you know social and cultural and political force in you know in in history was because these salonirs committed themselves to you know hosting salons for years every week, every month. So it does require that commitment to to benefit uh people.

Silas Rose 23:30

Yeah, you're really building relationships.

Justine Kolata 23:33

Yes, yes.

Silas Rose 23:34

So so do you generally collect emails? Is that how do you do that?

Justine Kolata 23:39

Yeah, yeah, I have a mailing list and uh you know there are people who've been coming for 10 years and they're always new people, and it's yeah, it's really it's really wonderful to see. Uh and it's nice when you know you people have been there for a while, so you start to piece together their whole belief system because you've taught covered so many different topics, and and so then people really understand each other on this, you know, deeper level, and and that conversation becomes even more interesting at that point.

Silas Rose 24:08

So you have you have a

Openness, Community, And Curation

Silas Rose 24:10

a new book coming out. Beauty Will Save the World. That that sounds amazing. Why is beauty such a central part of your mission?

Justine Kolata 24:23

Yes, well, you know, I've always been very passionate about reviving, you know, beauty in the classical sense. Um you know, I I really believe that beauty in in art and nature and in human relationships brings us, you know, innumerable benefits, both as individuals and as a society. Um, and this is something that you know ancient Greek philosophers understood and explored in depth, and now more modern psychological and scientific studies really affirm. Uh, from you know, experiences of beauty improve our health and well-being. Beauty increases our happiness and brings us a deeper form of meaning. Beauty induces empathy for others and elevates our social relationships. Um, Friedrich Schiller, who was one of the philosophers I, you know, studied and who participated in Ceylon culture, um, said that beauty acts as a kind of universal language that connects us to other people and to a greater good. And so I found that, you know, this isn't just an abstract theory. These ideas, you know, they have a strong basis in ancient Greek thought and but and along lineage, but you know, this is also something that we can we have all really experienced ourselves. We've all experienced the power of beauty. You know, when you walk through a lovely garden or a beautiful neighborhood with elegant buildings, you can feel that your spirit is elevated and your mood improves. Or when you observe a beautiful landscape, you feel uh, you know, profound serenity and contentment. Or, you know, you might feel more deeply connected to a friend or family member when you listen to beautiful music together or watch a beautiful film. So the feelings that beauty inspires within us make our life meaningful and worth living. And unfortunately, today the challenge is that people associate the word beauty with physical appearances. But this is the opposite of the classical Platonic definition of beauty, which is an immaterial value connected to goodness and truth. And so I'm interested in reviving the pursuit of Platonic beauty because I believe it's really essential for human happiness and flourishing. And um, you know, relating back to the salons, this is the salonirs of past centuries, specifically the German Jewish salonirs in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, really believed in the power of beauty to advance the human condition. And so they created a community for people to improve themselves through the experience of beauty in art and in music and in conversation. Um, so yeah, I I guess beauty, goodness, and truth, these are noble ideals that are worth aspiring towards. And I'd like to continue the Salonier's efforts to conserve and create beauty. Um, and I see it as kind of an antidote to these very superficial and and disenchanted times. So that's why I my book, my new book is Beauty Will Save the World, which is a Dostoevsky

Moderating Conflict With Grace

Justine Kolata 27:20

quote. And um, yeah, I think it summarizes my worldview.

Silas Rose 27:25

Well, well, definitely have to get you back for another conversation on that when it's out.

Justine Kolata 27:31

Yes, I would love to. Absolutely.

Silas Rose 27:34

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Justine. Um if people want to connect more with your your work, where could they go?

Justine Kolata 27:43

Yeah, well, they could um visit my website. It's www.thebeautifulsoul.co. Um and I'm going to develop, I'm gonna put some of the these ideas on Instagram. I have an account, beautiful soul philosophy. The beautiful soul philosophy. So hopefully I'll I'll put out videos about the history of salon culture, the history of the philosophy of the beautiful soul, and and why m beauty matters today.

Silas Rose 28:12

I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Justine. If you want to learn more about her work, head over to the beautifulsoul.co. I'll post some links also at awakenrelationship.com. If you enjoyed this episode and appreciate the content I'm putting out here on Awaken Relationship, there's one way you can really help support the show. The algorithmic overlords really love reviews. So I'd really appreciate it if you could take a moment and just leave some stars and possibly a nice written review on Apple or Spotify. It really helps. Thank you. I can be found on Substack and LinkedIn and sometimes Instagram. Send me a message. I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear your feedback. Especially if you have suggestions for future episodes or guests. If you made it this far, thank you so much, dear listener, for tuning in. Till next time, stay connected.

Outro 29:25

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