Who is really in control of AI and our future? with John J Wisdom

078 The birth of artificial super intelligence has been compared to the invention of fire and it is fundamentally reshaping our work, relationships and ontological reality. This technological revolution is also happening at a potent time at the intersection of the climate crisis, historic wealth inequality and shifting global politics. The dawn of AI is forcing us to confront profound questions around what it means to be human and who or what is in control of our collective destiny?

In this episode of Awake In Relationship I speak with John J Wisdom, a technologist turned speculative fiction writer and author of G.A.I.A: The World on the Brink in the Age of AI about the power of stories and the known unknowns of a future shaped by a technology that few of us fully understand. In this chat we also explore some of the the moral and philosophical grey zones that AI presents and the possible emergence of a ‘conscious’ and benevolent super intelligence that can help humanity navigate the complexity and peril of this evolutionary bottleneck. 

Photo by Galina Nelyubova on Unsplash

Music used in this episode by mfcc-space on Pixabay

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Transcript

Why AI Belongs In Relationships

Silas Rose 0:00

Welcome dear Lister to another episode of Awake In Relationship. My name is Silas Rose. Since I the release of ChatGPT4 back in 2023, I've been really wanting to host more conversations on artificial intelligence. To be somewhat confessional, I find it a bit of a tricky topic. It tends to evoke a lot of strong feelings and opinions. Much like social media. AI is also reshaping human relationships. And how we see ourselves. Artificial intelligence is raising so many profound questions right now. Like, what does it mean to be human in an age of super intelligence? An who or what is in control of our destiny. More than ever, the future dluid and uncertain. We need to be telling ourselves better stories about the future. Which is why I invite the show, JJ Wisdom , a former technologist, turned fiction writer, and author of Gaia, The World on the Brink, in the age of AI. In this conversation, John and I explore some of the moral and philosophical greyzones, that AI is forcing us to confront. We also discussed the possibility of creating a new narrative for humanity and this powerful new technology that is generative and hopeful, which includes the emergence of superintelligence that is conscious and benevolent. If you've been questioning your own relationship to artificial intelligence, this episode is for you.

John J Wisdom 2:43

Good to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

From Technologist To Novelist

Silas Rose 2:46

So a good place to start, I think it's just kind of your backstory, because that's quite interesting. You you began, well, basically started with a long career uh implementing transformative technologies in corporate America. And then you became anomalist. Tell us about the arc of your story.

John J Wisdom 3:07

Yeah, so it um I had a 30-cur 30-year career with a Fortune 200 company, and I gravitated towards implementing technologies, and it started with you know some pretty basic things like uh networks and um and grew into some much larger things like enterprise business systems, and at the end of my career, implemented a global e-commerce system for uh the distribution of heavy-duty truck parts to our dealerships. And uh during that career, I had much broader interest in you know, that went beyond technology, I was very, always very interested in technology, and I love both the um you know what technology can do for us, but also uh what the potential is. So from Star Trek to all kinds of uh you know dreams, fever dreams we have about the future and in in uh many times glorious, sometimes not so glorious. We think about movies like The Terminator or Ex Machina. So I was I was curious about all these things, and I read a lot I uh in areas of philosophy and religion and history and anthropology, and um and I I I didn't I didn't know I was going to write a fiction. Um but in 2021 I was reading Alantosh Ghosh's uh The Great Derangement, which is a which is a novel about or a book about nonfiction about uh climate change and why we're not able to deal with it effectively, uh, because we've become, you know, d deranged. We've kind of compartmentalized it and we acknowledge it, but we act as if we if it's not real, you know, really. So after reading his book in which he called for artists to uh create art that would help people understand these threats that we're dealing with, especially climate change, I started writing. And I quickly expanded beyond the subject of climate change when I realized that all these uh existential threats we're dealing with are intertwined. And uh when I started writing, I got hooked and the story developed and it turned into a novel.

Silas Rose 5:32

Yeah, well, tell us about that novel. So it's Gaia, World on the Brink in the Age of AI.

John J Wisdom 5:40

So Gaia is a novel that is the the the Gaia is an acronym, it's G-A-I-A, and it uh it is also you know Gaia in Greek mythology is the is the mother earth, is uh uh a Greek god that represents the earth. And in my novel, it is the global artificial intelligence automaton. An automaton also comes from Greek roots, and it is basically a being with agency, you know, a mind of its own. And so in my novel, Gaia is created initially, there's an attempt to create this artificial intelligence, super intelligent being that will save the earth from climate change. And there is no easy answer, so that the the AI grapples with a problem that humans haven't been able to solve. And it's really, you know, the insolvability of it is rooted in the problem of, you know, how what are we going to give up to get what we want? And um and and the the AI is not able to find any kind of magical solution. So um, but it but it's it it expands from there into dealing with more than one thing, more than climate change, but but that's the that's the foundation of the book and where the name came from.

Silas Rose 7:07

Yeah, I think it you kind of capture the complexity on the technology and and the kind of moral crossroads that we're at right now. Because GAIA doesn't seem particularly benevolent, yeah.

John J Wisdom 7:23

Well, I would say that benevolent is in the eye of the beholder. So, you know, to some extent. So we we uh you know uh when I look at a a place like Singapore, I don't know if you've ever been to Singapore, but uh it looks like a benevolent, you know, sort of authoritarian country to me. I don't know how you would define it, but uh it's like Disneyland for adults. It's so well controlled, and uh it's not a good place to be a bad guy. And and it and and so that's where some people see it as not necessarily benevolent is what do you do with people who you know don't want to behave according to the norms, don't want to be don't want to obey the law, and and they're very strict about it. And it works well for for people that are willing to do what the government demands they do. In my novel, the AI, I don't want to give, I don't want to spoil the story for anyone who might want to read it, but um I think any intelligent being will um struggle with how much to control uh someone they're trying to help. You know, and and so when we're raising children, you know, what does benevolence look like? Well, sort of letting the child learn on its own, but also giving it guidance. And um, and so that's what you know, it's what an AI can do for us now, it's what an AI can do for us in the future. But um, when it's super intelligent, the you know, the the philosophical question is how much should it control us and how much should it just help guide us?

Silas Rose 9:06

This is really kind of my first foray into talking about artificial intelligence on the podcast. We first connected on Substack and you published a number of great articles on the topic. You are a person that think deeply about the technology. And I really appreciate your kind of nuanced perspective. So I invited you on this show to dive into some of those kind of philosophical issues I think many of us right now are struggling with. The big concern I have around AI and its development is how quickly it's being pushed out and the fact that no one really knows like how it's developing. Like the people that are behind the technology don't know. And so when it comes to superintelligence, first I wonder if you can kind of explain the progression that we're where superintelligence actually uh emerges and some of the risks involved in that.

John J Wisdom 10:11

It's such a great question, and I think that I want to go back to a point you made at the beginning of that that statement question that um the people developing AI don't really understand how it works. And I'm I'm not that that sounds absurd, and I you know when I talk to people about this, they're like, well, it's a it's a program. Well, it's it isn't and isn't. It's it's it's grown like a brain. It it it's fed data and information and it finds patterns in that. And um so I think that that foundationally what we're dealing with is sort of a a conjured alien being that's built on human stuff. And because it's so fast, and because you know, you can ask a question of an AI and you'll get a you'll get a complex answer very quickly. And um, I know today that you know the people who are developing AI are celebrating the fact that um AI today can can do 80% of what human beings can do in terms of you know knowledge work. And um when it gets to 100% across all domains, then you have what's called superintelligence. So when it can exceed what any human being can do across all domains, now you have this being that is just incredibly capable and powerful. And uh and so that's that's that's that's where the race is. Because whoever controls that, if they can control it, will you know potentially be able to control the world, which sounds crazy. It sounds like sci-fi, but this is what they're all racing towards.

Silas Rose 11:59

I think that that question, can it be controlled, is fundamental.

Incentives Turn AI Into An Arms Race

John J Wisdom 12:04

Yeah, and I I think it's such a great question. I think we've already proven with AI that it is extremely difficult to control. You know, even starting with what does it mean for the AI to be aligned with anyone's values? And uh, you know, the this this the funny, not funny story about Elon Musk developing his Grok AI is that you know he didn't he didn't like some of the answers he was getting, so he fed it his Twitter feed. And then you know, then the world didn't really like some of the answers that were coming out of it after that. So um it is very much like a child that you're trying to raise to be a certain way. But the question for all of us is you know, what does a good human being look like? And that's going to depend on what ideology you you adhere to. What are your beliefs, what are your values? And there, you know, there are there are a set of universal human values, but um, but beyond that, there's a lot of adversity, which is you know, is why we fight all the time over, you know, it's why we have culture wars, why we have real wars, shooting wars.

Silas Rose 13:20

It's not just the values, it's the incentives. When we think about humanity's sort of first u exposure to AI on a on a mass scale, it's really the social media algorithms. And that really kind of didn't go well.

John J Wisdom 13:40

Yeah, and I think I I I I I believe that that is going to be become even more problematic um because engagement is how people get paid. And uh, you know, it's so it's it's it's it's selling something. And so we're all you know, we're all um products that are, you know, we're all potential for profit. And that's the that's the the major incentive that we're dealing with right now is that these companies uh have you know tremendous profit potential from this product. And you know, can you imagine the value of being able to replace any worker, right, with with this tool? And so, you know, businesses in order to survive are going to have to adopt it. And uh so that that takes us at, you know, there's another realm of this, which is the you know, the ego. Uh the people that that want to be at the forefront of this, they they want to blaze that trail, and they want to possess that power over the rest of us. Now, I may not say that explicitly, but explicitly, but I believe it was Sam Altman who said he wants to control a benevolent AI. Um, so what does that look like? I don't know. And uh and then we have nations that want that power. And so this is where it becomes a space race where you know this is a sputnik moment where we're in a race with China and and others who are developing AI, but you know you can see why the federal government has said the states cannot regulate AI because they want to win, is the way I see it. They want to win this race, right? Because what they see is the potential for this becoming, you know, you can weaponize it. It's already being weaponized, you know, and no matter how hard we try, any any technology we develop will be used against other people. Just it's it's almost unavoidable unless you do what we did, you know, World War I, where we outlawed the use of chemical weapons, you know, and that's that's where the containment comes in. But it usually comes in after someone uses the chemical weapons. We have nuclear containment after somebody drops the bomb on a city, or we almost have an accident. We have containment of of uh environmental threats after the Cuyahoga River caught fire. You know, so on and on. So I I think there's going to be an event um that that will cause us to finally have some regulation. But right now, uh as I see it and as others see it, we're in a race to to develop that power for profit and for control.

Silas Rose 16:28

Yeah, framing it as a arms race essentially is how many experts are kind of looking at it. And the comparison to nukes is is interesting and kind of scary. Um because can anyone actually win that that race?

John J Wisdom 16:47

Right. Yeah, exactly. So winning, I think you have to define what winning looks like before you can decide if anyone can win, but um I do I do believe that if if if a small number of human beings have control over an AI, that um we know from history, we know from what's happening right now that you know power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, and so what that would look like would probably be corrupt on a massive scale. And and I'm just talking about human nature, right? Joffrey Hinton has said that a good outcome, you know, he's the godfather of AI, is that what they call him, he's an earlier developer of AI, but he has uh said more recently that uh he has some hope that a superintelligent AI would have a maternal instinct and would care about us and care for us. And so I think, you know, I think for the average human being, that's what would that's what winning would look like. I'm not sure if that's what winning would look like for people that want that power for themselves and want control and want to take things in a different direction.

Silas Rose 17:58

Closely parallels Gaia.

John J Wisdom 18:00

Yes, yeah, yeah, that's it, it is. And then actually um there's another book called Gaia Awakes, uh, which is which is a nonfiction book that I'm using as a basis for my sequel. So um, yeah, Tintin Redman book, that would be wonderful. But I'm I'm I am borrowing his concept and also this Gaia Awakes, um, which is about the earth literally becoming conscious, really being self-aware and uh you know going to the next level of intelligence so that so they so the AI becomes super intelligent and becomes uh integrated with the earth itself. Um it's it's it's uh it's definitely out there as a concept, but um that that's where you know that's where we can see hope and and the possibility for better outcomes for everyone.

Silas Rose 19:02

So a big focus of this podcast is really around conscious relationships, particularly in the digital age. Which is why I kind of want to lean into the topic of AI more because I recently learned I think it was a Harvard business review stat published in uh 2025 that the number one use case of AI right now is actually uh not coding but companionship and therapy. The idea of millions of people forming deep emotional bonds or attachments to machines just feels kind of wrong. I'm wondering is that an alignment issue or is there something deeper in the human psyche in the shadow that's being expressed right now?

John J Wisdom 20:04

I think the question in my mind is whether those relationships help people flourish or whether they um degrade their relationship with themselves and with the people around them and with their environment. And I think the jury is out. I I know there there has to be people that are benefiting from their relationships with these chatbots, but the scary stories are the ones where people fall into depression or the chatbots, you know, turn very strange and start sexualizing, you know, conversations with children. You know, there's been cases of children killing themselves, you know, other people becoming psychotic, you know. Um so there's potential for good. I have a character in my novel that has a um and you know, a psychologist assistant, you know, a counselor that is an AI. And I try to I try to frame it as something that is that is good and helpful because you know, it would be great anytime someone's in crisis to be able to talk to someone immediately.

Silas Rose 21:13

So your y work introduced me to Heidegger's theories around how technology essentially changes the way we see ourselves in the world. And it's called enframing. How is enframing us?

The Monocrisis And Need For Guardrails

John J Wisdom 21:28

Well, you've you've kind of reversed the question. Um because inframing is a is a is a human trait, you know, human have a propensity to look at their environment as as resources. And I think your question gets to the you know the the fact that it if uh if an AI is looking at us as resources, then what does that mean for us? So it Heidegger's uh in framing Concept causes us to look at a forest as timber, causes us to look at a river as hydroelectric potential. And if we have an AI that's clever or aware or conscious or whatever, how is it looking at us? That's such a great question. And is it going to look us at us in a frame that's presented to them by its creators? As, you know, there's already advertising coming into our AI feeds. It's already being done. And I think that kind of answers the question as long as there is a profit mode involved, that the AI and its creators are going to see us as what Heidegger called standing reserve, and a resource to be taken advantage of. And that's what he ultimately feared is that the machines would harvest us. Or

Silas Rose 23:15

maybe it's an awakening. How do you see it?

John J Wisdom 23:18

I see it as a crisis. You know, what in my novel I call the mo uh the monocrisis. And so, you know, I the way I see the polycrisis as it's called, is compartmentalized problems like a nuclear threat, like climate change, like the threat from AI, uh, as really one crisis that's rooted in our desire for power. And when that desire for power, you know, materializes in all of these uh threats that can can wipe us out, um, then there is a need for an awakening. And in the third chapter of my book, there's a there's a character, Anatoly Harvey, who has a crisis on stage as he's talking about the polycrisis and the monocrisis, and he sees these dark clouds, and then he he collapses on stage and he and he and he says Salvador Monday, Salvador Monday is asking for you know a savior to appear. Um, but I think that you know, back to what we were talking about earlier, we have to save ourselves first, right? And this this comes from this is where the awakening comes in. It's like, what does that awakening look like? And I think what it looks like is um what we've done so many times before, where we have to restrain ourselves. We have to we have to have rules and regulations around everything. You can't operate an automobile without driving on the correct side of the road at the right speed and all these things. And we we take these things for granted after we've done them. But before we've created those, those guardrails, those, those laws and rules and regulations, you know, we we tend to optimize for agency and freedom and and doing whatever we want to do until we realize what the consequences are

Silas Rose 25:10

I think the awakening is also about rediscovering what it means to be human, a more sacred kind of outlook.

John J Wisdom 25:19

I I I agree with that. And one of the characters in my novel is calling for a return, and you know, we can call it a return, but it's re-establishing a relationship not only with each other, other, but with the earth and what some would call God or uh what is divine in creation. And um Carl Jung talked about you know the need for us to realize that this this ego inflation that we that we are um experiencing is just becoming greater and greater, our technology expands with it. Our our desire for control over the divine comes back to haunt us because built into the universe are the rules that we have to operate by. And they they they they're always there. And no matter how try hard how hard you try to separate yourself from nature and what is sacred and divine, um, it's always it's always there and it's always going to be operating uh with power that exceeds our power. Um so I I I I do believe an awakening is needed. Don't know what it looks like. I I and I I was recently in Portugal, and this relates because um when I was doing a tour of Lisbon, the tour guide told me about a piece of history I'd forgotten about, or maybe I never knew, but in 1755 there was an earthquake in Lisbon, and it occurred at at the exact moment when everyone in Lisbon was in church. It was it was it was such a big earthquake that destroyed the churches, they all collapsed on the people, and then a fire started. The fire burned so hot that in the center of Lisbon it reached a thousand degrees. Then a tsunami came. So this was an event that um was totally anticipated, people took as a sign. The reason that I bring that up is because this event uh brought about the end of the Inquisition. And it brought about um a more scientific, secular, humanist movement. So it was an awakening of sorts to, you know, humanity was on the wrong path. As people saw it, the church had too much power, it was very corrupt, very cruel. And so that awakening came from that event. And I think, and we had the same thing after World War II. We have all these institutions today that have prevented World War III because we created them, NATO and United Nations, and in another way of, you know, even nuclear weapons, but um I don't know what the awakening looks like, you know, and I don't think the people in Portugal in 1754 knew what the awakening looked like before the earthquake, earthquake came. But it was the seed of it was there and the enlightenment and the age of reason that had already begun, but that was the event that uh transformed the country and you know helped transform the world.

Silas Rose 28:42

I want to end on an optimistic note and and get your sense of like how do how do you stay hopeful about the future, John?

John J Wisdom 28:55

I say hopeful when I look at the past and I see where we've come, and I've seen the problems we've overcome. And when I think about people who lived a hundred years ago, who had to live through World War I and World War II and the Great Depression, and uh and uh all the horrors of that industrialized slaughter of our fellow fellow human beings, and the fact that we overcame that, that we did not continue with that industrialized slaughter, that we we we contained so many different problems. Um, you know, the Green Revolution, we were we were all supposed to starve to death, but we haven't, you know. So we we're we're very clever beings. And um what keeps me optimistic is that I know at some point that awakening, that reaction, uh, that organization, the coming together is going to happen because it's happened over and over again throughout history. So that's that's what keeps me positive.

Silas Rose 29:56

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for this conversation, John. There's so much to unpack in this topic. And I really encourage people to grab the book. So I'm wondering how people can find out more about you and get a copy of Gaia.

John J Wisdom 30:13

My website is johnjwisdom.com, or you can find me on Substack where you found me Gaia Book.substack.com .

Silas Rose 30:27

Thanks again.

John J Wisdom 30:29

Thanks for having me on. It's been a wonderful conversation.

Silas Rose 30:32

I hope you enjoyed this conversation with John. If you want to learn more about his book and his work, check him out at John JWisdom.com or you can find him on Substack. And we'll also put some links in the show notes on awakenrelationship.com. If you've been loving the content here in Awakened Relationship, please hit subscribe and take a moment to leave a quick review. It really helps to grow the show. And if you've already done that, thank you. I can be found on Substat, LinkedIn, and sometimes Instagram. I also publish on YouTube. I really love hearing from my audience. So if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send me a message. If you made this far, dear listener. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Stay connected.