The Science of Parenting

Raising Courageous Kids ft. Dr. Charles Smith | Bonus

February 02, 2023 Iowa State University Extension and Outreach
The Science of Parenting
Raising Courageous Kids ft. Dr. Charles Smith | Bonus
Show Notes Transcript

In today’s episode, we explore the concept of courage with specialist, Dr. Charles Smith. Whether standing up for a friend or acting heroically in a dangerous situation, we will learn about how courage develops, operates, and how we can foster it in our children. 

For more information or to connect with Dr. Smith, visit https://casmith44.wixsite.com/insightofcaring

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This institution is an equal opportunity provider. For the full non-discrimination statement or accommodation inquiries, go to www.extension.iastate.edu/diversity/ext

Mackenzie Johnson:

Welcome to the Science of Parenting podcast. I'm Mackenzie Johnson here, co-host of our Science of Parenting podcast. And I'm really excited today. We're going to be bringing in a guest, an excellent guest, to talk about, kind of an interesting topic. We're going to be talking about courage. And so our guest that we're going to bring in is Chuck Smith, or Dr. Charles Smith, I should be official, who is really an expert in this concept, literally wrote a book on raising courageous kids. That's the title.. He was an extension specialist, like a professor and extension state specialist in parenting for a lot of years at Kansas State. We happened to get hooked up with them through a colleague of ours who used to be a colleague of his knew about his passion and that he has retired and had a little time that he'd be willing to share with us some of that expertise.. So, I mean, really, I, I mean, I'm kind of like fangirl a little, let's be honest, that he is really considered kind of a parenting guru and he's written books, multiple books. He's written multiple curricula. A speaker to a, holy cow, I don't even know how many people, on this kind of, these types of topics.. And so we're just going to hone in on this one idea of courage today in our conversation with him. And we just felt like, you know, our Science of Parenting team, we felt like this topic of courage is just relevant for being a parent of today.You know, we see an increase in mental health challenges with kids and adults, you know, with anxiety and things like that. We also know that our generation and our kids generation has an increased access to scary news. And so just this idea of being courageous and we'll get into the episode to figure out exactly what that means. But we felt like this is a really great topic for parenting, so we hope you enjoy it. Hello again. Today we are here with Chuck, and gosh. We're just, I'm so excited to have you here. So you're a professor emeritus at Kansas State University and a retired extension state specialist with expertise in parenting. Hello. Hey, you're our peeps, but you've also written several books and curricula and holy cow. I mean, I'm just so excited to have you here and talking about raising courageous kids today, which is a topic pretty close to your heart, right?

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Yeah, raising, the book, Raising Courageous Kids.I began working on that right after, immediately after, the day after 911, that horrible incident in the Twin Towers in New York. And the amazing acts of courage by the first responders.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

That and then also in the skies overhead in terms of the normal people, not professionals who rose up against hijackers on the plane.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

You know, I just had to understand. I was just so impressed by that. I had to learn about the origins of the behavior that I saw on that day. One of the things that I did as I was writing the book, I looked at the Carnegie Hero Medal, which is amazing act of courage and heroism by normal, everyday people in response to other people who are experiencing distress and danger. And what I focused on is, I looked at the cases there of recipients where the recipients under 18 years of age.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Mmm. Yeah. Kids!

Dr. Chuck Smith:

I mean, that's a small sample, but takes my breath away, and I had to understand it. Therefore, you know, Mackenzie, if you, If you want to really understand something, you have to write a book about it.

Mackenzie Johnson:

<laugh>. I'll keep that in mind, Chuck.<laugh>.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Yeah.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Oh, well, and I think, you know, this, I mean, real things that happened. And I think that's such a beautiful, I mean, I think I'm biased, of course, but a beautiful thing. And what an illustration of the extension mindset of the real world and connecting it with science. And so you did, you saw things that inspired, I mean, of course, were devastating, but also you were inspired amidst that.. And so I actually I have some of the articles you sent me and our listeners know I love to start with a definition, So I'm actually I'm going to quote you to you. Okay. This is from your essay that you published with the National Association for the Education of the Young Child. And so this idea of courage that we're talking about today, you defined courage as persevering despite fear. I like that. Persevering despite fear. So can you tell me a little bit more about this idea of courage and maybe even, you know, give a few examples of times when our kids might need to be courageous?

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Courage begins within fear. I mean, it's a response to fear.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yeah.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

So, you know, it's persevering despite fear or in the midst of fear. Like, for example, I was talking with a group of teachers, of middle school teachers in an in-service and about this. And one of them said, I got an example for you of courage. When I was a young girl, my grandmother asked me to go to the henhouse and collect eggs, which she did. She walked in the hen house where one of the hens fluttered up, landed on her head, and the others squawking and fluttering.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Okay. Yep. Terrifying. Uhhuh,<laugh>.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

And she said days later, when I went back to my grandmother's and she said, I need you to go get some eggs from the hen house. She said, I remember distinctly in my mind the moment that I stood outside that hen house and felt that fear. And she took a deep breath and went in and gathered the eggs and I was very proud of myself that moment. So you have kids, even younger kids, kids who are preschoolers or go to the doctor's office and they're afraid, or infants, toddlers or children responding to a storm outside and their little heart's beating very fast. They get up and they run into their parent's bedroom for help right in there with them.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Been there<laugh>.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Yeah. Yeah. I think we all have. And I, I remember the issue of bullying that later in childhood grade school especially, primarily. Bullying going on and how you respond to being bullied when you realize you're, you know it's wrong. This is not right to be bullied. I don't deserve that. How do you respond to and deal with that fear? And I know that grandma that she helped her granddaughter, I'm sure after she realized that it was so frightening for her, she probably took her to the hen house before before they actually collected the eggs and showed her, you know, where the hens were and how to behave around hens in order.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yeah, well, and I, you know, I think what I really hear you say as you describe this as that fear is present in courage, Right? So like, it's not the absence of the fear. It's actually about feeling it, right? You are scared. You are experiencing the fear. And I think sometimes as parents, we maybe think like, I don't want my kids to be scared of this or I don't want them to be fearful. But you're really saying that that fear is pretty important?

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Well, it is. Our fear warns us. I mean, it's an alert in our head. And what it's alerting us to is something that we believe is dangerous. I mean, it's a danger outside and being fearless, without fear, is to be reckless. And, yeah, you know, we don't want recklessness to you know, be a part of our child's life. So that's a challenge that we have.

Mackenzie Johnson:

And I love that idea. Yeah. Fear is an instinct. Like fear is something in our body is like alerting us. I love that concept of it.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

It’s part of our human nature. I mean, it’s how we survive.

Mackenzie Johnson:

It keeps us safe.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

The problem with fear is called emotional hijacking with anyone, whether it's anger or fear, you can get hijacked. That means that it overwhelms you and you react thoughtlessly.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes, I heard a term recently, like a therapy term about being flooded. Right. Like all the rest of your brain stops working. Is that kind of the same emotional hijacking? Is the same concept, Like the fear takes over?

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Yeah. And the fear is the risk is there. You've got either panic with fear. It's primarily the risk is, okay, that's dangerous that to be driven by panic. Anger, of course, then has the risk of rage..

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

And all everything associated with that. So, you know, we want to respect fear. We don't want our children to be afraid of their fear. We want them to be thinking thoughtful about it.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes. Yes. Well, and that idea of like staying, I mean, fear itself is not the bad thing. We can learn from that fear. We can explore and examine that fear a little bit. I mean, honestly, like as a parent, you know, I could, I probably have some fear with that I could explore, but that I can also help foster it in my kids, too, right? We don't want that emotional hijacking to take over.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Well, you have what's called emotional contagion, where one person's strong emotions can ripple out and affect the similar emotions in other people around them, whether it's children or anyone else.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Well, and we talk about that, actually in a nature class that we teach, we talk about if you're, I mean, with early childhood professionals or parents taking kids outside, we talk about being really mindful of not passing on fear. Right. So like if you see bugs, spiders, snakes. But yeah, because of that emotional contagion, I can pass on this fear without even meaning to. And so being mindful of that. But another thing that I hear you saying in all of this is this idea like, yeah, you talked about a little bit about like being in that fear, recognizing it, but really you're talking about a skill. Right. Like this. So this isn't something like, courage is not something like some get and some don't. You might have like a natural inclination, maybe, but that really being courageous is a skill or something that we can kind of help foster in our kids, which as a parent, that's great news. It's not a luck of the draw. There's something I can do.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Well, you think about the issue of with infancy, something that we might call willpower, so that infant who pushes herself up from the crib, the bed of the crib to stand up and hold on to the bars.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Or, or climb out.<Laugh>.

Speaker 2:

Or the toddler who's walking and falling and getting up again and falling and getting... You know, all these things are a part of our nature. We don't teach a child to smile, our children smile naturally in response to someone, the parent looking at them and smiling and nodding their heads. But what's in the human nature has to be nurtured. So with the smiling issue, for example, a child who's by nature smiling, if no one smiles back at them, then what do you have? You have a child eventually who doesn't smile.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes, yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Or a child who is not, doesn't experience encouragement by a parent just stops. Just stops doing it. So you help encourage the whole issue of courage and that sense of willpower.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Mm. Yeah. Encouraging courage. I like that<laugh>.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Yeah. And, you know, we don't teach that courage. We have to encourage it. Using the word courage is so important.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yeah, Yeah. So we can kind of help foster and encourage that idea, because yeah, some kids might have a maybe a more natural, I think, of the temperament trait of, like, approach or withdrawal, right? That like, novelty or things that are unfamiliar or fear. Right. Some kids might have a more fearful temperament and some kids might be more of a quick to jump in. So they have kind of a baseline that might be different in their nature, but there's things we can do in how we nurture and encourage, right? So how do we as parents help develop this, you know, skill or concept of being courageous? You identified that actually in that article. Well, you sent me several good ones, but in one in particular, you outlined kind of four fundamental skills that go into this idea of courage. So I feel you've kind of touched on a few, but can we dive into those a little more?

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Well, I think what we're talking about here is providing the spark without the push.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Oh, I love that. So providing the spark without the push. Okay. I like that.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

With some kids, you might have to dim that because they're too reckless. They’re…

Mackenzie Johnson:

Quick to jump in. Yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Temperamentally, yeah. Yeah. So you have to moderate that and get them to be thoughtful.

Speaker 1:

I was that kid. I needed to be taught to heed caution. My children are the opposite. They need the nudge.

Speaker 2:

They need the spark.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

We want to try to get across to them that, don't be afraid of fear. And so instead of asking or telling a child, don't be afraid. We ask the child, What are you afraid of? What's going on here? What's the danger? What's the issue? Just get them, get their thinking, you want the thinking part of their brain to interact with the emotional part of their brain, not be afraid of fear. Put your thinking cap on and think you know, Is the danger real? Is it something that we have to be cautious about or is it something we need to kind of reassure ourselves, say it's okay? So that's part of being mindful.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes. Well and that, yeah. I mean, kind of coming back to that description of persevering despite fears like the fear, is there. Let's understand it. Like that's an important part of it.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

You know, And as a child gets older, I mean, they're not only managing their own emotions, the arousal that they're feeling from distress, but they're also beginning to think about what they like, their principles, their sense of true north and how they should be responding to risk and to maintain their own sense of self-respect.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Well and those morals and values. I mean, especially in grade school, those really, those morals and values are developing. And so yeah, I think those are definitely a part of courage too.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

And we're, while we're helping kids think about that fear. We're also helping them think about their, the courage that they could feel in responding to another person's distress. So that's why the Carnegie Hero Medal is really about that. It's about people who use their courage in service of caring about another person and taking action to help them.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

So courage begins by focusing on yourself. That's very important for self-respect.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yeah.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Also means that you're responding to the distress of others. So you've got that sense of compassion in response to distress.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Absolutely. Well, and I even think, so unfortunately, my kids and I have been to the doctor's office a lot in the, and I mean in their whole life, but in the last few months, luckily with pretty acute, you know, minor type things. But I think of the way that I see my two kids honestly kind of practice courage for each other. You know, one might volunteer to go first or one might offer to hold the other one's hand or rub their back. And that's a small thing, but that is, they're responding to the distress of their sibling, who is nervous. Both of my kids honestly nervous about the doctor.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Yeah, think about it. Even a preschooler or young grade schooler hears her mother crying in the adjacent room and she stops and listened and realized, Oh, my mother is in distress. My mother is sad, I love my mother. And she runs and gets her teddy bear, rushes to her mother’s side while the tears are flowing and hands it to her.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

They're responding with from within their own set of understanding of what alleviates distress and using the teddy bear as an example.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Later on you have that same child is going to need courage. Need that set of principles when they see bullying going on, like in elementary school and grade school, in their classrooms, in the hallways, in high school, and how they respond to that. The fear that they feel and taking a chance and responding and to support somebody who's going through that. So being well, I would say talking with the bullying issue in elementary school and in services with the kids. So being smart with your heart sometimes...

Mackenzie Johnson:

Ahh.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

You see the problem. You feel that distress by the other person. Now, what's the smartest way to respond to show that support?

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes, I love that. Smart with your heart as a way to think about appropriate courage. Right. And you're right, there is a mix of that self-focus in terms of honoring your own morals and values, but also the risk of like, or not risk, the priority of others, like you said, like in distress or you know that empathy.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Yeah. It's that the morals that you're talking about, that's a person's sense of what's true north. If you don't follow that, If you turn away from that out of fear, then you lose self-respect. And we want children, you know, to respond smartly to risks of other people and themselves and their own response. And one reason for doing that is we want that child to grow up feeling self-respect and not just respect for other people, that person being bullied, but also I'm acting in response to the situation out of maintaining my own self-respect. So that's an important part of that. So I think that thinking about fear, getting your mind attentive to the danger and what the real risk is, then responding with that courage, not just for yourself on your own behalf, but also on behalf of another person. That helps to build community.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Creating a space where everybody's welcome and safe and protected by each other and....

Dr. Chuck Smith:

And it takes a risk. I mean, there's a risk and yes, as it was a huge risk for those folks on that plane during 9/11, you know, and how they responded to those hijackers. I mean, a huge risk.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

But they took action. And part of that what drove them was that sense of true north and the principles that they had, that they felt.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Oh, yes. One, you know, I honestly feel like. So you outlined like I said, you outlined four fundamental skills for courage in that article. But I honestly feel like I heard you kind of pare it down to two almost. The whole like being mindful and persevering in the fear and being mindful of it being one. But then, yeah, caring about yourself and responding compassionately to others kind of almost summarized it in two.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Yeah. I mean, being strong with your heart, I mean it's, you want kids to have a good heart, but you want them to be smart, too, when faced with, with risk and, and danger, which is what fear is saying to you. That's a little, that bell going up in your head. There was a risk here. Your heart's beating fast. That's an emotional thing. The arousal that you feel, how do you respond to that arousal and how do you, how do you stand up for yourself in terms of what you believe is important and how you should act?

Mackenzie Johnson:

Absolutely. Well, oh, my gosh. Thank you so much, Chuck, for sharing your expertise and your experience with us on this. I mean, yeah, this topic that I feel like doesn't always come to the forefront as parents of helping our kids be courageous. But that is so important. You know, I think we want to foster in our kids. So before we say goodbye, I wanted to ask anything else that you want to share with our parents and listeners?

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Well, I think what's important to me is when I'm talking with parents is to treasure every moment that you have with your child, because they're growing up so fast, so you don't want to be too wasteful in those moments. Take advantage of those and do the best that you possibly can. What else can you do with that? So that when you're old and gray like me, you look back at your life and you, you can feel like, well, yeah, I'm not perfect. I made mistakes, but I did the best I could and I'm proud of what I did. So, you know, talking with parents outside that 4-H building, you know, late at night after a program on discipline with children, you know, it'd be like when I look back on, in the future, look back at these moments with your child and what can you do to maintain your own sense of pride in your reaction?

Mackenzie Johnson:

Yes.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Treasure those moments because they grow up so fast.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Oh, yes. Well, thank you so much, Chuck. I know you have a wealth of knowledge that we didn't even get to tap into in this short bonus episode. But this whole topic of raising courageous kids, you are definitely the right person to be here with us. So thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

If I can say one more thing.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Oh, please.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

To your listeners, go to CarnegieHero.Org, That's all one word. CarnegieHero.org. And look up examples of people in your state or your city who received that medal since they began giving it out in the very early 1900s. And you’ll be just amazed at what everyday people will do out of the sense of self-respect and caring about other people. There are amazing stories on that site.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Well, that is going to be our homework for all of us. I'm going to go do it too. So. Well, again, thank you so much, Chuck. We are so glad and honestly humbled to have you here with us. So hopefully we'll see you again soon.

Dr. Chuck Smith:

Thank you, Mackenzie.

Mackenzie Johnson:

Thanks, Chuck. Holy cow. Having that conversation with Chuck was, oh it was just so great. I hope you enjoyed listening to it and learning from him as much as I enjoyed learning from him and having that conversation. You know, I think just somewhat to highlight some of those things that he shared with us. I love his definition of courage being about persevering despite fear. It's not about that you're never scared or anything like that, but that we can be mindful in our fear. We can understand it, and understanding fear as like a necessary and functional thing. I love that. You know, I hadn't really thought about it as like an instinct. We’ve got to have fear, if we don't, that's problematic. You know, and I think back to our episode we did with Rob Coplan back in season three on temperament and that idea of approach and withdrawal, and that idea that we need to, if we have high approach, we might need to heed caution, we might need to help our kids learn to do that. And then giving that, I liked Chuck's term of Spark with a push and or what do you say with a nudge. Now I'm going to have to go back and listen. But like the idea of having a little spark when it comes to courage. And so those strategies that he shared with us for helping raise courageous kids, really helping our kids stay mindful in their fear, to understand their fear, to be curious about it. But yeah, to stay in their... I was going to say mindful brain, can I say that? But to stay in their logical brain and to be mindful of like when they're in fear so they're not getting that emotional hijacking. And then yeah, thinking about it, you know that other strategy of as respect for yourself to be courageous, to honor your values and your morals, but also respect and compassion for other kids, other people, and that those are great things. Those are things I want to see in my kids, but to know how to foster them and to have the practical strategies from an expert, from an actual expert is just something that I get really excited about. So I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. Don't be afraid to reach out to us. If you've got questions, follow up. A thing like that. We would love to share more information with you. So thanks for joining us today on the Science of Parenting podcast. Don't forget to be courageous yourself as you raise courageous kids. Come along with us as we tackle the ups and downs, the ins and outs and the research and reality all around The Science of Parenting.

Speaker 3:

The Science of Parenting is hosted by Mackenzie Johnson, produced by Mackenzie DeJong, with research and writing by Barbara Dunn Swanson. Send in questions and comments to parenting@iastate.edu and connect with us on Facebook and Twitter. This institution is an equal opportunity provider. For the full non-discrimination statement or accommodation inquiries, go to www.extension.iastate.edu/diversity/ext