Behind The Mike Podcast
Behind The Mike Podcast is a Christ-centered show where host Mike Stone dives deep into inspiring stories and profound insights from guests who view life through a biblical lens. Each episode offers hope, encouragement and wisdom to help you navigate life's challenges with faith and purpose.
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Behind The Mike Podcast
Beyond Death's Doorstep with John Burke
Embark on an unparalleled exploration of the afterlife with pastor and best-selling author John Burke as we traverse the mystifying realm of near-death experiences (NDEs). Prepare to have your understanding of heaven and eternity challenged as John, once an agnostic engineer, shares personal insights from his spiritual journey and investigates NDEs through the lens of biblical teachings. Our conversation sweeps across the globe, breathing life into stories of people from various faiths who've glimpsed beyond the veil, and the transformative impact these experiences had on their beliefs.
Witness the universal themes of divine light and redemption through the compelling accounts of individuals whose NDEs transcended their cultural and religious backgrounds. From a Hindu man's confrontation with a Christian heaven to a Muslim Imam's hellish encounter that steered him towards new faith, these narratives are a testament to the life-altering visions that shake the very foundations of our preconceived notions of the afterlife. These stories not only stir the soul but also ignite a discussion on the evidence that suggests our consciousness may extend beyond the grasp of death.
As we wrap up our enlightening discussion, we zero in on verifiable observations from those who've brushed with the afterlife, sharing insights that defy scientific explanation. Blind individuals seeing for the first time during NDEs, precise descriptions of the material world from the brink of death, and a soccer team's profound interaction with faith and the gospel – these examples compel us to consider the possibility of a reality beyond our current understanding. Join us as we engage with these profound encounters, urging both skeptics and believers alike to reflect on their spirituality with a renewed curiosity and an open heart.
Hey there, podcast family. Welcome back to Behind the Mic Podcast, your go-to spot for inspiring and hopeful conversations that stir your soul. I'm Mike Stone, your host, and today get ready to jump into the deep end as we hang out with pastor and best-selling author John Burke. We're diving deep into the realms of near-death experiences, heaven's mysteries and those spine-tingling moments when people meet Jesus face-to-face. You'll be on the edge of your seat as we soak in the stories that will make you rethink everything you thought you knew about heaven and eternity. We're cracking open John's best-selling books to dip our toes into the unknown. So grab your headphones, let's buckle up on this wild ride together. This is Behind the Mic Podcast and we're about to unravel some seriously mind-bending tales. Let's go, all right. Welcome back to the podcast. Today I'm excited to share with you our guest, pastor John Burke. He's the founding pastor at Gateway Community Church in Austin, texas. Pastor John, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2:Mike, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm going to start. First of all, I want you to kind of just share who you are. But I want to start with and kind of go back to 2015, when I first heard about you and my take on your book. So that's a little cliffhanger. Can you share a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Speaker 2:Well, how do you summarize that? I've been a pastor for 25 years well longer than that but my wife and I planted Gateway Church in Austin, texas, really to reach skeptics like I was and provide a safe place for people who question and doubt to explore faith, and we've seen people from 65 nations, thousands of people, come to faith, and that's what I've been really focused on. I've also been an author. In 2015, I wrote imagine heaven, which became a new york times bestseller, and I actually took a break after that. I stopped writing until just now when the Lord made it really clear no, I want, I've got a new mission for you, and so I wrote a book about him called Imagine the God of Heaven.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's amazing. I think back to 2015, when your book was on the New York bestsellers, obviously as a believer, I heard about it, I saw it in Christian bookstores and picked it up and looked at it and my initial thought I'm just going to be honest with you, john my initial thought was oh, it's someone who is trying to sell books, it's someone who has these crazy stories that no one can really verify, and that was to be completely raw. That was my honest approach. And then, as time went on, I learned a little bit more about you. I realized that you were a pastor, so that intrigued me a little more and maybe gave me a little bit more buy-in to your book. That's just where I was, but I say that because I think a lot of other Christians are in that same place.
Speaker 2:First of all go ahead, and it took me 35 years of study to write the first book. For that reason, I was a skeptic too and I had a lot of questions. So you know, for me, um, I was an agnostic as well, um, and I studied engineering. So the way my brain works is I want, I want to understand. How do you know why? What's the evidence? You know patterns, I look for patterns, and it's just the way my brain works. And, and and I was an agnostic when my dad was dying of cancer, um, decades ago, and I saw the first book that coined the term near death experience on his nightstand and I picked it up and started thumbing through it and I was like I couldn't stop reading it. Because here you're talking about people who have clinically died, you know, and, and the ones I focus on, most of them have no heartbeat, no brain waves, for minutes to hours, Wow, and yet they're resuscitated or miraculously come back. And yet they're resuscitated or miraculously come back in some cases, I believe. And they're talking about experiencing a life more real than this life in a place far more beautiful, though not that different, and in the presence of this God of light and love who knew them personally. I'm reading this book. Some of them are. They know he's Jesus and I don't believe any of that and I I closed the book after finishing it that night and I said, oh my gosh, like this might be evidence. This might be what I was looking for, that maybe this God, jesus, afterlife stuff is real.
Speaker 2:Now I wasn't convinced. I was still a skeptic and I had a lot of questions like well, how do you know? It's not hallucination? I go into all the alternate theories and the 10 points of evidence that convinced me in Chapter 2 of Imagine the God of Heaven and we can talk more about those. But I ended up going from a career in engineering. Well, the next year I started studying the Bible I never had and I started to understand grace and what Jesus had done for us and I came to faith in Christ and I eventually went from a career in engineering into ministry. But over the last 35 years I've studied well over a thousand cases of near-death experience and in the new book Imagine the God of Heaven, I personally interviewed 70 from every continent on the planet and I'm showing in Imagine Heaven and Imagine the God of Heaven that the commonalities of what these people report is what God's been telling us all along in the scriptures, of what the expectation of the life to come is, but also of who he is and his identity.
Speaker 2:And that's what I'm trying to show. I'm trying to help skeptics, like I was, see the evidence that you know. How else do you explain this? And we can go into some of that evidence. But how else do you explain this? And doesn't it point to the God who's been revealing himself all along? And I'm trying to show that not only for the skeptic but for the believer too. And I'm trying to show that not only for the skeptic but for the believer too, because, you know, as believers in Jesus, we often read the Bible but, honestly, we don't have a good conception of what's to come. Most people don't live for that Because, hey, they can picture retirement and golf or, you know, hanging out on a beach somewhere, but they can't picture heaven and eternity.
Speaker 2:So they don't live for it for sure. Yet the scriptures tell us in Colossians three set your mind on things above, not on things of the earth, cause your, your mind, your life is hidden there, with Christ in the heavenlies. So it's telling us to imagine God and to imagine heaven. But people don't. But the great heroes of faith in Hebrews 11, they did. They weren't looking for a country that is of this earthly origin, they were looking for a country that's their own, a heavenly one, and that's why they live by faith.
Speaker 2:And what I realized, mike, is that a lot of what prompted me to want to follow God wholeheartedly and do anything he wanted. You know I'm not perfect, but it's part of what led me from engineering into ministry, first as a missionary and then starting a church from nothing. I mean, you know they're pretty risky ventures every time, and and even now I, I I walked away from the church we planted 25 years ago, cause I believe God wants me to speak into this global phenomena and help them see what, what he's doing. And I want people to see that as well and be motivated to love and trust God more.
Speaker 1:So good. Yes, one of the questions I had back then I remember this and you speak to it, I've heard you speak to it before and I think it's really important to bring up is so we've all heard the stories and seen the movies of these near-death experiences, where they go to heaven. What about? First of all, it's kind of a double question what about have you ever heard of seen the movies of these near-death experiences, where they go to heaven? What about? First of all, it's kind of a double question what about? Have you ever heard of people that didn't go to heaven, that went to hell, that experienced hell? And secondly, what about the ones who are not believers, who see Jesus? Let's say, the Muslim or someone who dies has the near-death experience and they see Jesus. How does that reconcile with what we're reading in scripture that says you know you won't enter the kingdom of heaven?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question, mike. And you know, and I go into all this in the books, but in Imagine Heaven I have an entire chapter on hell and hellish near-death experiences. Because in one study of those and you have to understand that people don't easily come forward talking about their near-death experience Because one they say it was more real than anything else they've experienced Well, how do you explain that? And I've come to the conclusion there they're. Actually it would be like experiencing this three dimensional room of color and then being pressed into a two dimensional flat black and white painting world and you have to describe three dimensions of color in a two dimensional black and white world. How would you do it? And that's what they're trying to do? Yeah, um, but 23 of those who come forward in one study came forward talking about hellish near-death experiences and and other studies and and those are thought to be underreported because those I've interviewed they they say it's as it's also more real than this and so the wonderful things we experienced in this life are just a taste of what's to come, but the horrible things we experienced are just a taste of of what could be, and it's why God, I believe, wants this message to get out to all the nations that you know. What he did through Jesus is so that anyone who calls in the name of the Lord can be saved. And in the new book, in Imagine the God of Heaven, like I said, I have 70 stories of these people I've personally interviewed from all over the world. I couldn't have done it five years ago, but God brought these people to me and because of the internet and zoom and I, I've been able to, like Santosh uh grew up in India, is a Hindu.
Speaker 2:Um, he thought, when you die, it's nothing, or maybe you come back as another life form. But he hears code blue. When his, his, um, his pancreas exploded into his gallbladder, he had his heart crashed. He said but that's not what happened. What happened is this brilliant God of light comes and, as commonly they say, brighter than the sun, like a thousand times brighter but not hard to look at, mesmerizing. And he said I instantly fell in love with this divine light because I knew it was for me and had ultimate authority and power and I had to obey it. And he follows and and this light takes him on this journey.
Speaker 2:But, uh, you know, I, I, I don't have time to tell all of it. But basically he comes to this place where he describes exactly the holy city of God that John describes in Revelation 21. He tells me it was a giant compound. Well, in India there are all these walled compounds. Right, he says a giant compound, thousands of miles long. And he said the other side, your eyesight is like telescopic and they commonly say that which is also biblical. For many years I thought, oh, that's kind of weird, you know. But then I realized well, john in Revelation 21 says he was taking the spirit to a very high mountain. He describes the same city Santosh is describing and he can read the names on the foundation stones, how, and there are all these little things that I'm showing that. No, this is what the Bible's been telling us. So Santosh says he counted 12 gates and inside these beautiful grounds and otherworldly buildings, he called them mansions. He called them that.
Speaker 2:Of otherworldly building material and outside the gates were angels. And then he realized I'm looking at the kingdom of heaven Now. He also saw hell and described it as an abyss of hopeless darkness with a lake of fire at the bottom. He's Hindu.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then he turns and he sees who he calls the almighty, on his throne, and he looks into his eyes. And a life review is another common thing that happens with near death experiences. And it's just like Peter says in 2 Peter 3, 8, to the Lord, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. And indie eaters say the same thing. It's like time was different there. I couldn't tell if it was minutes or years or hours. And he re-experiences his whole life and he sees all of his sins and he realizes that's what I deserve down there and he's crying out forgive me Lord, forgive me Lord. And anyway, he, when the Lord speaks to him, he, he has such love and compassion and tenderness in his voice and he says I'm sending you back, santosh, and when you go back you must love your family and love your daughter. And then Santosh notices a very he calls it a very narrow door or narrow gate, and he said it was so narrow it was, it was strange to me like, but it was open. It was the only gate that was open into the kingdom of heaven for him. So he asked the Lord and I mean, is this not just like Jesus, he is the parabolic God. He told parables and he's literally giving this Hindu man a parable. He told parables and he's literally giving this Hindu man a parable and he says to Santosh says to who he now thinks was Jesus on his throne Lord, when I come back, how do I go through that narrow gate? I want to go through that narrow gate. Well, he comes back and he's seeking God with all his heart and he's like this was not the gods of the Hindu scriptures. I read who was this God of light and love, who was so merciful and compassionate when I knew what I deserved? And two years later, his daughter, who is a choral major in college, is invited to sing at a church on Easter with a friend. Santosh walks into the church to hear her, feels the presence of this God of love and the message that day is on the narrow way and how. John 10, jesus is the gate through which you must enter the kingdom of heaven to be saved. Santosh is blown away. He goes home, starts reading the Bible and he told me everything I experienced was in this book. Now, that's just one.
Speaker 2:Then I've got a woman in Tehran that I interviewed. She told me her story in Farsi, in Persian, and she has a heart attack and she's waiting for Ali, one of the Imams, to come and judge her, because that's what they believe in Shiite. And instead the same almighty God that Santosh describes comes and says to her and again, he's like a man of light, but a robe, and it's like the risen Jesus in Daniel, chapter seven, or a revelation one, or or or, I think, the pre-incarnate Jesus in revel in Daniel seven described. They're describing the same person. And he says to BB I am he who is. And boom, she's back in her body and she starts seeking, seeking, seeking, seeking and then discovers well, that's the same god of light who appeared to moses on mount sinai and said I am he who is, or I am the one. That was the translation into from farsi into english for me, but and all over the globe, um swedeek.
Speaker 2:This imam, muslim imam in Rwanda who is dying of blood cancer. The Muslims couldn't heal him. His mom goes to their African goddess, beko, and tries to get Beko to heal him and then finally, in desperation, goes to the Anglican church and asks them to pray in Jesus' name. And she's praying in Jesus name because she doesn't want her son to die. Well, he does die while they're praying and fasting. And Swadeek tells me that he begins in this hellish place and these demonic creatures are are getting ready to just attack him.
Speaker 2:It was horrific when into the room this darkness comes, a man of light in a robe with a gold sash around beard holds out his hands, and Swadeek said he saw holes in his hands, like his wrist there. And he said he had seen the passion of the Christ when it came to Rwanda, so he knew who this was. And he said to Swede I died for mankind. You were among those I died for. Never deny it and tell it to everyone. And boom, swede comes to at his burial. He sits up and he looks around and everyone starts screaming and he sees a hole in the ground next to him and then he starts saying Jesus is here. Jesus is here. Jesus brought me back. Well, swedeek is today an Anglican pastor who has had seven attempts on his life because he will not shut up about Jesus.
Speaker 2:And I've got 70 stories like this from all over the world where these people there you know many of them are a Hindu chief anesthesiologist who has like a Damascus road and encounter with the same God and says who are you, lord?
Speaker 2:And out of the light steps a man who says I'm Jesus, your savior.
Speaker 2:I mean you can't make this stuff up. And yet they are consistently testifying to the God of the Bible. And I believe, mike, that in this time in our world, as evil is increasing, as we're globally connected, that these are God's global testimony reminders. I'm the God of all nations. I always have been, from Genesis 12, when I raised up Abraham and Sarah and said I'm raising you up to bless all nations through all the prophets who foretold of the time that this Messiah would come and die to forgive the sins of the whole world, of all nations. And Jesus saying go into all the nations and tell them there's forgiveness of sin in my name. All the way to Revelation 7, when John sees before the throne of God every nation, tribe, language and people group worshiping God. And I think you know I'm not an in timestimes guy, I have no idea, I don't think anybody knows, but I'll tell you you know there are a lot of things going on right now and I think God is. As evil is increasing, I think God's testimony is increasing.
Speaker 1:I believe so too, and that's what I was just going to ask you. Living in the times that we are now I mean, I'm going on 59. I've not been around forever, but in my lifetime, in our lifetime, I know that we have seen such a change in our country in what is acceptable and what is not, and God doesn't have to reveal himself beyond Scripture, and yet he I think it's just a testimony of his grace that he would say in these situations, I want you to experience what could be or what is, and so really encouraging to me.
Speaker 2:Well, let me mention one other thing that you asked, because I think it's important to realize that these near-death experiences are not eternal life or eternal death, and that was a key for me to realize that. Because you know, it says in Hebrews 9, 27,. It's appointed for mankind to realize that. Because you know it says in Hebrews 9 27, it's appointed for mankind to die once right, and then comes judgment. And so that always tripped me up. I'm like, okay, well, that doesn't make sense. What are these?
Speaker 2:But what I, what I point out in the books is that another commonality is they say they come to a border or a boundary. In this experience they knew they couldn't cross and still come back to earth. And in fact, in imagine the God of heaven, jesus is telling some of them you have to go back, you haven't died yet. Well, they had. I mean clinically they, their heart wasn't beating, there were no brain waves.
Speaker 2:But what you start to realize is that, um, and I think that's also why so many people and about I don't know a lot of the people in Imagine the God of Heaven, saw the reality of hell as well as heaven, and they had a choice, and they still have a choice. Even when they come back, will they seek this God, and will they, you know, or or will they still go their own way? And I like to remind Christians that we shouldn't be surprised that those who don't know Jesus, um, or or even you know, agnostics would see the same God Um revelation one seven says every eye will see him, even those who pierced him and then, remember, paul was not a believer in Jesus. He was persecuting Christians. He was on his way to arrest them and have them killed when the same brilliant God of light appeared to him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And only when he asked who are you Lord? He says I'm Jesus, who you're persecuting. And I'd like to point out, note, that Jesus does not tell Paul the gospel, he doesn't explain it. He later sends Ananias to explain it to Paul. And Paul still had a free will and a choice Will he leave Phariseeism? He had a lot to lose by becoming a follower of Jesus and he had a lot to suffer by becoming a follower of Jesus and he had a lot to suffer and and and he, he decided to be baptized in the name of Jesus and to follow Jesus.
Speaker 2:But it's the same with the near death experiences. They come back and they have a free will and they can either seek, and when they do, they find. And I'm amazed at how many I've talked to who do find. But there are some that blow me away because they experience the same thing and they come back and they get lost and um, but it's just like if we interviewed a hundred people in Jerusalem, you know, in you know 40 AD, who all saw Jesus, and some of them would say, oh, I did, I saw him raise the dead, I saw him heal people.
Speaker 2:I mean, clearly he's the Messiah the prophets talked about. Of course I believe in him and others would say, yeah, I saw him do those things. But you know what Our Pharisees tell us? That it's sorcery. He was a sorcerer leading Israel astray. You still have a free will. You see the same thing, but you can still choose how you want to interpret and then how you follow, and that's why I, you know, like I told you, I'm not interested in near death experiences, which you know studied thousands of them, so that's strange to people, but I'm interested in where they're pointing, that's right.
Speaker 2:And they're pointing to the reality of this God, who is the love we've always wanted. He is the God of all nations. Of course they're not going to see anyone else, because there's only one, and of course they're going to feel unconditional love, because that's who he is Right. Yeah, but you have people all over the globe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is right, but you have people all over the globe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's what I find amazing. Is that? Well, if I'm Hindu or I'm some other religion around the world and I have this near-death experience, wouldn't you think that I would be seeing the God of that faith in these experiences? But that's not what you're saying is happening. They're seeing the true God, they're seeing Jesus and experiencing the God of our Bible, the God of creation, and I think that's something at least to stop and pause and go. Maybe God is in this. Again, going back to 2015 as the skeptic, really amazing things that I hadn't thought through until, uh, reading some of your stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, and you know the the the thing, the thing I think we've we've got to realize is that people are interpreting an other worldly experience. So one of the reasons I do not encourage people to just go out and watch a bunch of near death experiences and then form your view of the afterlife and of God. Yeah, because in Imagine the God of Heaven. I also show, you know, I have like, I have Hindus, buddhists, muslims, agnostics, christians, but I'm showing that they are getting a glimpse of the same reality of heaven, of hell, of God's kingdom. You know the new Jerusalem, and and God and um. But I give two examples as well, like, for instance, you know, you have Santosh that I told you about, and and Rajiv, who, who both come to believe that this was Jesus right. But you also have Nia who, um, she was in Africa, um, she, she was bit by a lioness when she was in a uh, a safari and and died. And she says this this beautiful, glow, light sunrise came with, with the warmth of love, and took me to this place, beautiful, exquisite. Some call it heaven, some call it god. God definitely exists. And then she, she comes back and she says this I experienced the goddess durga ma. Okay, so so she interprets this, this god of light and love and all this, as experiencing the goddess she worshiped, durga ma. Now, I point out, though, durgaga is actually a woman who is blue or black, with a long tongue and four arms, with weapons in it in each arm, in each hand. Well, that's not who she described, brilliant God of light that appeared to the Israelites on Mount Sinai. The same brilliant God of light whose face, transfigured on the Mount of Transfiguration, brighter than the sun, they said. Who, by the way, said I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life. Right, that's who she described. And then she also said she came back with an understanding about Jesus and Christianity that she had not had before. Why Jesus? Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:I give another example of Arvind, who was also a Hindu, who, again, he leaves his body, floats out in the hallway of the hospital and there opens up this kind of like a hallway in this brilliant god of light again, and then his experience ends. So some of the experiences don't have a lot of the commonalities. There are deeper and there are shallower experiences. So the shallower experiences are far broader, open to whatever interpretation you want, right, sure, yeah, so Arvin comes back and he said that he experienced the goddess Kallika who he worships. The goddess Kalika who he worships. Now, again, kalika is seen as a beautiful woman riding a lion with 12 to 16 arms, and that's not who he experienced. Who he reported was the same god of light, and that's what I'm trying to show. And so people can.
Speaker 2:And there are other near-death experiences that they just leave their body. They, they still have a body, they feel like they have all these superpowers, because they say you don't just have five senses, more like 50 senses, and they feel great. And then they, they, they come back into their body. That's the extent of their experience. Now they can make any kind of worldview fit that, right, right, yeah, and and that was really important, because one of the ones who you know, he, he was an atheist, a college professor, tenured college professor.
Speaker 2:When he died, um, he was in France he leaves his body, he feels great, he's frustrated because he's like who is that in the bed I just left there? He doesn't know he's dead, because he's more alive than ever. These nice people come in the hallway and welcome him. And again. That's. Another commonality is, many times people have this welcoming committee of people which, by the way, jesus talked about in Matthew 13, when he said use your worldly wealth to make friends in this life so that, when it's gone, they will welcome you into an eternal dwelling and this is what indie ears are referencing, dwelling and this is what.
Speaker 2:Indy ears are referencing. But in Howard's case these people seemed really nice. They're like Howard, come with us, we're waiting, we've been waiting for you. And he's like I need surgery. So we know, we know all about you. Come, you know, don't you want to get better? Come with us. And he follows them. Now again. If he'd come back to life, right then, if he'd been resuscitated, then he would say atheists, go to heaven, it's all good, the people are nice. I felt wonderful peace and joy and I felt like Superman. But as he followed them, they led him into what he called a darker than black darkness, into what he called a darker than black darkness, and and he started to realize they were deceiving him and they turn on him and he, he was in a hellish experience.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Now in that place he hears in his soul pray to God and and I always, you know Howard's become a friend and I'm always amazed because the human pride can be a prison, that is merciless.
Speaker 2:And even in the midst of being demolished. And I mean he's told me this story about four or five times and he said at some point he says I can't go any, can't go any further. They, they did the most horrific things to me anything you can imagine, like the worst prison scene they did to me. And again people were like, well, we're spirits. No, it's life, jesus said this yes, that's right.
Speaker 2:He said this it's life and it's more life. We're more alive, not less's abundant, overflowing life that's still to come. Or, and I think that's why God is warning people the worst imaginable horrific things that the suffering on this earth is, you know? Just a warning sign about? Yeah. And so he's hearing pray to God, but he's fighting it. He's like I don't believe in God, why would I pray to God? He keeps hearing pray to God, but he's fighting it. He's like I don't believe in God, why would I pray to God? He keeps hearing pray to God. He's like, well, I don't even know what I would pray.
Speaker 2:And then he remembers being taken to Sunday school as a kid by a neighbor and the song Jesus loves me comes into his mind and finally, in a moment of just, you know, utter resolution, he says Jesus, even if you are real, how could you love me? And then he just cries out Jesus, save me. Ok, so into this outer darkness comes a pinpoint of light, brighter and brighter, until suddenly it's brighter than the sun, brighter than the sun. Arms reach out, pick Howard up and hold him. As he said. He just sobbed like a baby, realizing how wrong he had been. Wow, praise.
Speaker 2:God and then takes him out of there and, in the presence of Jesus and the angels, he gets a life review. Well, he comes back and two years later leaves his tenured professorship. Now, people don't leave a tenured professorship ever to become a Christian pastor. So yeah, the hellish experiences are real as well. Let me back up for just a second, because I would still hearing this. I would still have a skeptical response. It'd be like, well, maybe this is all like in the brain, you know, maybe this is, uh, all of our human evolutionary stories and things that have, you know, matriculated in our brains, that you know, pass down generation to generation. And this is just a trick. The brain's playing and you know it's.
Speaker 1:We've heard that that's what We've heard, that you know, in some of the things that I have researched, what little I've researched, you know we hear some physicians saying, well, that's just the brain shutting down, that's just the way that happens, and and well, Dr Michael Shermer, you know, is an atheist and that's that's his, you know, that's his thought too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I go into these 10 points of evidence that not only convinced me but convinced many skeptical medical doctors that this is grounded in reality. Yeah, and, by the way, there've been like 900 scholarly articles written on this. Christians are once again late to the table. Yeah, right, the Journal of the American Medical Association, the Lancet, europe's most prestigious medical journal, where doctors have been convinced our consciousness survives death. Now, just a couple of the 10 points of evidence, just a few of them.
Speaker 2:One verifiable observations when people die, you know, they say they leave their body, but initially they're still in the room and they can observe their resuscitation and when they come back they can report things. So, like one woman mary was in london, died giving birth to her child, she again she's there observing and then travels and she's in the presence of this, this god of of light who is love. Um, she grew up Catholic but it turned away, uh, you know, from the Catholic faith. But she knew this was God, she said, and I, and she felt washed clean, she felt forgiven, um, cause she had, you know, she'd done some bad things and again you get a life review. So you see the good and you see the bad and you see the ripple of that that's right.
Speaker 2:And God said you must go back, it's not your time. And she begged him. No, let me stay with you. This is common because he is the relationship we were created for. In his presence they say there was nothing else I wanted but just to be with him. And he says no, your son is going to live and he needs you.
Speaker 2:As she's coming back to her body, she passes through the ceiling and notices a red sticker on the top side of the ceiling fan, then is resuscitated and is trying to tell the medical doctors and nurses this incredible experience. No one believes her. Finally, she corners a nurse and told the nurse what she said and what she did in the nurse's reality. She didn't have brain waves when she was telling, when that was happening, right. And so mary says to her look, I'll prove it to you. Go get a ladder, look on the top side of the ceiling fan. You'll see a red sticker and here's what it says on it. And sure enough, she gets a ladder and she finds it.
Speaker 2:Now these kinds of observations have actually been scientifically studied. So Dr Janice Holden studied, um, you know, almost a hundred near death experiencers who made multiple observations that could be checked out as either true or false and what she found is 92% of their observations were completely accurate and another 6% most all their observations, but a few details were different. Only 2% were inaccurate. And then compare that to a control group of people who had cardiac arrest but didn't have a near-death experience, and it was like 20% accurate, just guessing, yeah, yeah. So that's one, the verifiable observations For me as an engineer, when I was skeptical as an engineer, that grounded it in reality. This is not just hallucination. Reality, this is not just hallucination, um, but second, blind people, blind from birth, when they have a near-death experience, can see, and they see and report the same things as sighted people. Oh wow.
Speaker 2:And like debbie is one of the ones in imagine the god of heaven. And you know she. She falls dead on her floor in her bathroom, had a seizure after a horrible burn all over her body and she's up above her body and she's trying to adjust. Like what is this new sense? Because she'd never seen. Her mom comes in to try to revive her and when she comes back she's able to tell her mom not only what she saw her mom look like, but she said you were wearing your bathrobe and it was a dark color. And her mom said, yeah, it was my black bathrobe.
Speaker 2:And then Debbie goes on and again she's in the presence of this wonderful God. She never wants to leave. Who tells her you must go back, you're going to have children. She wants to leave. Who tells her you must go back, you're going to have children? She was told she couldn't have children. She did eventually have children, um, and she meets her grandmother, who, uh, who was deceased before when she was just, a, uh, an infant. So she'd never met her grandmother. And when she comes back, she describes to her mother what her grandmother looked like, and her and her mom is like, well, yeah, but that's what she looked like. When she comes back, she describes to her mother what her grandmother looked like, and her mom is like, well, yeah, but that's what she looked like when she was 30.
Speaker 2:Oh my, which is another commonality of near-death experiences around the globe that the people of heaven are like they're in their prime, they're like around 30. But the other crazy thing that blind people consistently say is the light of heaven comes out of everything. And they say it's not like the light of earth, it's palpable, it's life and love and light altogether. Now think about this, because a blind person would hear on earth that light shines on things not out of everything Right. And Isaiah, in Isaiah, chapter 60, the Jewish prophet says there's no sun or moon in heaven. The glory of God is its light. And then John, in Revelation, sees the same heaven and says there's no sun or moon, for God is its light and Jesus, the Lamb, is its lamp. And the nations will walk in that light and even like coming out of people that you know.
Speaker 2:Paul said we will share in the glory of God. Well, imagine sharing in the light and love and life of God coming through you, extending to others. Well, that's what near-death experiencers say as well, that that, uh, the their welcoming committee. And sometimes they appear. We appear to each other just like, like we would today. Marv Besteman, who's a bank president, said he was dressed in his favorite golf outfit. So, and and people are dressed in their native guard, but sometimes they're wearing these robes of white which, again, the Bible talks about, and what I discovered is they're not white, they're translucent. They look white because this light that is love and life is bursting forth through them, of righteousness talked about in scripture, where we share in God's glory, maybe in relation to how much we shared in God's love and life flowing through us in this life. Maybe that's one of the rewards that Jesus was talking about, wow.
Speaker 1:How exciting this is something. This is a topic that all of us one day will face death, and I think that's one thing. Many of us don't want to talk about it because it's scary what you're talking about, though I love the analogy you used of the black and white picture into a color 3D world, because there are so many times that I cry out to God and say, god, I don't understand. I don't know what eternity really is, I don't understand this or that that I read in scripture and I just have to trust that there is this new experience that I can't even describe. But you've kind of made that come to life today, john, and I really I'm so grateful for that, because it does make you want to think more about heaven, rather than this obscure thought or idea that we read in scripture.
Speaker 2:Very, very amazing, and that's been my goal. You know, my goal with Imagine Heaven was and it's both Imagine Heaven and Imagine the God of Heaven. They're filled with scripture, because I'm trying to show that the theology of what God has revealed that we can expect is so much better than we imagine and that's the problem, we don't imagine it accurately. But also what I'm trying to show in the new book, imagine the God of Heaven. God is so much better than we imagine. Oh, you know, we, we all, put god in a box. We have to because we're finite. We do, yeah, but I'm trying to show that god is so much more beautiful, mysterious, sovereign, in control, all powerful, all-knowing, you know, but also, on the other side of the box, more relatable and personable and even humorous and fun. I mean, that hits some of our walls right? It certainly does, yeah, and yet I'm trying to show that that is what he has revealed in scripture and that is what these 70 testimonies that I interview confer, and it's like scripture.
Speaker 2:What I'm trying to do imagine scriptures is is drawing a picture. Well, what I think these near death experiences do is put color on the picture. They're not, they're not giving. I don't think we go to them to get new content of what to expect. Instead, it's just bringing it to life. You know, I can read the Psalms that the heavens and creation declares the glory of God. Okay, reading that, meditating on it, standing on on the nepali? Uh, then what is it?
Speaker 2:napoli beach in hawaii, looking out over the beach in the ocean and I'm like, wow, that's all brings new perspective right, it's a fuller experience to those words that are true, and I think that's what indies are able to. To help us do is just put deeper context and color into the reality of who God is and the amazing things he has for all who love him.
Speaker 1:Pete yeah, that's so good, because that's a struggle that I've had is, as I'm reading scripture, I'm like God, this is all I know, this world is all I know, so help me to understand what these things mean. And this does. It brings color to those things, and so I'm grateful that you mentioned that, because it really does. I think we talked before we started recording that everything has to correlate, has to be in sync with Scripture, and you talked about that earlier that we can't just believe every story that we hear, and I think that's important too, john. One last thing I want to ask. I know that our time is limited here, but talking about your newest book, imagine the God of Heaven, what is it that you hope that readers will take away? You mentioned a little bit of that, but what exactly are you hoping that your readers will take away from that new book?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I go through the entire story of the Bible and I go through how God, apart from near-death experiences, told us we can know who he is and that he's real and how he fulfilled that in history.
Speaker 2:And so I hope that skeptics see that the, the God that these near death experiences are testifying about, has been revealing himself all along, and I hope they will fall in love with him and trust him. But I hope those of us who know Jesus already will stretch our imagination and and and let God out of the box in some of the ways that we have. Because if you don't want to wholeheartedly follow God and do everything he says, you don't know him, yes, and if you think you're somehow going to miss out on something because you, you sacrifice or suffer in this life following God, you're wrong. You, you don't know who he is and you don't know what he has in store for you. And that's what I hope people will see as they're as they read. Imagine the God of heaven. I mean, that's what I've heard people say. They're like oh my gosh, I had no idea that he's so good. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a great way to end and I would encourage those of you who have not read John's books grab it. And just again, it's full of Scripture. So you're backing everything up with Scripture, or allowing it to filter through Scripture. So grab the book, check it out and allow this to color our black and white world and see that God is so much bigger than we can imagine. John, thank you so much for spending time with us. I hope to have you back, maybe after the next book. Or have you thought about movies or anything beyond the authoring?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually was just in a movie called After Death, which went number one in faith documentary uh all history and it's out on Amazon and, uh, apple plus now and it's it's. It's based on my first book, in part, um, but um, it's also just a conversation starter, so the book goes so much further into it, so it's really more like just a conversation starter on this topic, but it's great. I play soccer still and I took my whole soccer team to it and these guys are mostly not believers from all over the world and we had the best conversation about the gospel afterwards. It was amazing.
Speaker 1:Wow, there you go, john. Thanks again. Hope to have you back and man keep doing what you're doing. I've been inspired. I'm grateful that you were able to answer a lot of questions I had and hopefully you know, reach out to those of you listening that are skeptical, not only just about these near-death experiences but the God of the Bible. I pray that you would research and dig into his word and ask the hard questions because he can handle it. John, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks, mike, it's been fun.
