MFREE 095 Full Episode with Paul Shannon: Can Funds of Funds Be the Key to Smarter Investments?

In this episode of the Multifamily Real Estate Experiment Podcast, host Hutch welcomes guest Paul Shannon, an experienced real estate investor and principal of Red Hawk Real Estate. 

Paul has successfully transitioned from active to passive real estate investing and co-founded Invest Wise Collective, helping investors diversify into passive real estate opportunities. Paul shares his investment philosophy, focusing on where profit meets progress, and discusses his journey from active investing to managing funds. He elaborates on the mechanics of different fund structures, the importance of diversification, and current investment strategies in today's economic climate. 

Paul also contrasts various asset classes and investment opportunities, providing insights into debt and equity real estate investing. The episode offers valuable advice for passive investors and details Paul's unique customizable fund model, which allows investors to choose opportunities meeting their specific criteria. The discussion also covers the benefits and challenges of different investment approaches, including the fund of funds and co-General Partner (co-GP) models.

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:11 Guest Introduction: Paul Shannon

01:18 Paul's Real Estate Journey

02:33 Navigating Market Challenges

05:16 The Fund of Funds Model Explained

09:13 Customizable Fund Structure

14:45 Current Investment Focus

21:22 Importance of Diversification

23:48 Target Audience and Fund Details

25:31 Focus Run: Quickfire Questions

27:02 Conclusion and Contact Information

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Email me at:
hutch@hsquaredcapital.com

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Transcript

Speaker: 0:00

Wah gwan all you multifamily enthusiast. Welcome to another episode of the multifamily real estate experiment podcast. Today, as you know, we're going to bring to you another extraordinary guest. So our guest today is Paul Shannon. He's an Experience real estate investor and the principle of Red Hawk real estate, Paul has successfully transitioned from active real estate investing to more of a passive approach, which when you look at the four quadrant of investing, that is where we want to be right. He is. The co founder of invest wise collective, which where he helps investor diversified into passive real estate opportunities Paul. It's an honor to have you with us today, brother.

Speaker 2: 0:41

It's great to see you. Thanks for having me

Speaker: 0:43

Yes, sir. Now, before we get into the meat and potato of this episode, brother, do you have a favorite real estate quote or

Speaker 2: 0:50

mantra

Speaker: 0:50

that

Speaker 2: 0:50

drives you? A real estate mantra that drives me. I think that, if you can combine and make profits meet progress, that is where the rubber meets the road. So you can't have one without the other, right? So I'm thinking along the lines of a distressed property. Let's say we want to make the community better. Everybody wants that, but you really can't do it without the incentives for others to bring their capital into those deals. So where profit meets progress, that's where the rubber meets the road.

Speaker: 1:17

That is awesome, man. Paul, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your current focus in real estate?

Speaker 2: 1:23

Yeah. So I started investing in real estate back in about 2016, both actively and passively, as you mentioned in the introduction, I've transitioned more into a passive role, as a fund manager, identifying limited partner positions, that we can bring along other investors to join us alongside us while we invest as a fund manager. And that was really accidental. Honestly, I was scaling my business. I transacted on close to 200 residential units, both single family and multifamily that was going really strong through about 2021, 2022. If you recall the early part of 2022, we had inflation that was running about 9%. We had a federal funds rate that was about zero. It was zero. Prior to that, we had the Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell saying that Inflation is transitory. It's going to fix itself. And about that time, you started to backtrack on those comments. It looked as if inflation was a bit more structural. And if you think back to that time, all the deals that were getting done in multifamily, which was where my focus was at that point, we're getting done with bridge debt. This is floating rate. debt that short term, so you have to execute your business plan pretty quickly. And in the meantime, interest rates could rise during your whole period. And that's exactly what happened. We sort of put the brakes on and saw this is a little risky thought that a rising federal funds rate could impact interest rates and put downward pressure on property values and, looking back, it was frustrating at the time to not be able to scale the way we wanted to passing on deal after deal after deal. Um, but we feel fortunate now that, we didn't get aggressive and try to scale with those headwinds in place, because we would have been probably in a lot more trouble as some are today. When I say it was by accident, we were still finding. Good deals and other parts of the country and other asset classes to invest as limited partners and part of a community now called passive pockets, which is a subsidiary, bigger pockets and a lot of great stuff comes out of that community as far as sharing ideas, sharing different investment, groups that people have invested with. And we, we took that and decided, listen, we have. Capital to invest ourselves. We want to find good deals. we're finding some as limited partners. Why don't we structure our company as a fund and allow other investors to come alongside us and join in on the investments that we make. And we're not registered investment advisors. We're not offering investment advice. We're not making investment decisions for our investors, but we're giving them a vehicle to invest alongside us. And there's some good, reasons to like coming into a fund. I think so.

Speaker: 3:52

That is phenomenal, man. I think it's just maybe, it's our time to watch the cycle, However, I think a lot more experience in, investors like those older dudes and gals who were in their seventies and eighties, they have been through several market cycle, right? So a lot of these things were normal to them watching the cycle. So it was really important for us to grow through, the last several years. Of watching the way the feds can not manipulate, but can ensure that they can keep price low and also keep inflation low. Which is a part of their jobs and we get to experience that, but, to your point, it's for a lot of us who have passed on some deals that were more so on the risky side, if we're not able to execute the business plan in a timely manner with a bridge that, we'll pass on a lot of deals, but man, who dodged that bullet, right? it's good to be able to look back. And we made good decision and we save our investors, some losses, Or saving investors money, which is a good, I like the fund model, And it's, a bigger step towards. Democratizing investments. And I really like that. So when you think about, before the jobs act, when, real estate investing was, good old boy, click the country club stuff, Now we have things where, people like you and I can invest in a bigger opportunity for our listeners who don't quite understand what a funds of funds is. Can you explain to our listeners a little bit more about the funds of funds and why it might be important to consider that as a part of our investment strategy, towards, creating a more diversified portfolio.

Speaker 2: 5:27

Sure. Yeah, a fund of funds is essentially just a vehicle to pool capital together from individuals. And you can set it up to be for non accredited individuals or accredited, meaning that their net worth is a million dollars, excluding their primary residence or, They've earned, I believe,$200, 000, as an individual or 300, 000 as a couple for two consecutive years. it's very, regulated from an SEC perspective, but it's probably the easiest way to raise capital compliantly as it relates to the securities exchange commission. So the barriers of entry are, I wouldn't say low, but they're certainly lower than, a registered investment advisor or something along those lines. With that said, there's really two value propositions for the limited partner. That's the passive investor who wants access to real estate opportunities, but doesn't necessarily have the time because they have a full time job or other priorities, or just don't really have an interest in being active in real estate. They can access these types of opportunities and get the benefits financially of them, but don't have to, deal with the tenants and toilets, so to speak.

Speaker: 6:30

yeah,

Speaker 2: 6:30

So the value proposition comes in the form of two things. As I mentioned, one is access. Some of these deals have high minimum investments, 250 thousand, 500 thousand, 1 million, and are really, in the past, as you mentioned, the country club crowd that could get in or family offices or very high net worth individuals. So what we do is we aggregate check sizes as small as 25, 000. Our average check size is about 40, 000. We collect all those checks and then we come in to the opportunity with the general partnership team as a single check writer. So there's value there to the general partnership too, because we streamline their capital sources, we reduce their overhead subsequently and what they have to pay to get, basically that capital in the door, all the phone calls they would have to make, et cetera. So they certainly like one check that's a million dollars versus a 25 or 50. And, for the average person like myself, I'm not going to cut a check for a half a million dollars for a single opportunity. That's not in my wheelhouse or not the capability that I have. So the access play is certainly, something that our investors appreciate the other form that's advantageous, for our investors is in the form of better returns, potentially, because we are offering a million dollar check to that sponsor. We have a little bit of leverage to negotiate potentially better terms. typically there's a preferred return paid for these offerings, and then there's a waterfall where the investors earn some profits as well as the general partnership team for their efforts, their sweat equity and for, basically executing the business plan and performing. a typical structure might look something like a 7 percent preferred return with a 70 percent split to the limited partners. 30 percent goes to the general partnership above that preferred return. In our case, we might be able to negotiate an 8 percent preferred return and an 80 percent split to the limited partners, 20 percent to the general partnership team. So with those better terms, we can pass along a big portion of that to our investors, but we can also monetize our fund and create a business around what we're offering.

Speaker: 8:26

Yeah. And that makes sense as well. So being able to raise a bigger check, give you more leverage, to negotiate. And one of the things that I think a lot of, funds of funds, struggle with. Is being able to bring enough capitals to the deal to where they can have that leverage to negotiate. And what happened is that if they're not able to bring enough capital to the deal, then they end up taking a little bit of split. From what would go to the passive investor, right? So be able to write bigger checks, then give you better leverage because this is a business, Where, to your point, You want to make money, but also bringing these opportunities to investors that might not have 250 K to invest in, in an opportunity. Now talk to us about, how does. funds of funds. okay. let's clarify what type of funds do you do? Do you deal with funds of funds or do you do open ends funds with multiple projects?

Speaker 2: 9:13

We do single asset allocations, right? So we have a unique setup actually. let me back up a little bit. So we're actually a customizable fund. That's a little bit different. let me tell you what we're not first and explain how most funds work. typically it's a semi blind pool fund if you invest. through a typical fund structure and the sponsor or general partner or fund manager or whatever you want to call them, typically will, present a buy box to their investor group. Let's say they're targeting, 1980s or newer multifamily garden style apartments in the Sunbelt area that. Are 100 units or more, right? And if you, and there's target returns, of course, and there's some other probably metrics that they should stay within as far as their guidelines, what they're going after, but what you're doing as an investor at that point is you're sending that sponsor a check, and essentially you're in the fund, but you don't know exactly what they're going to purchase with that capital, right? The parameters of what they're looking for, but you don't get to underwrite each individual deal and your capital gets diluted across whatever they end up with in the portfolio over the whole period of the fund. So that's a semi blind pool fund in a customizable fund. A little different. So you enter into the fund, you sign the documents to be a part and a participant in the fund. And then at that point we present opportunities and if your criteria is met as an individual investor, let's use an example that an investor is really cashflow focused. They want dividend checks, they want income, right? But we present a deal that's a development deal. That won't pay any cashflow for a couple of years until it's stabilized. And then the intent is to sell. It's really an appreciation play in that example. So that might not be a good fit for you, Hutch, if you're a cashflow investor. that particular deal, that investor could end up passing on it and just saying, that's not for me. So let's say in two years. We presented 10 deals and that investor entered in at deal one, they decided that they want to participate in six of those deals and four, they don't, they get a single K one for all six of those deals. They don't get any reporting or anything related to the four deals they passed on. They get communication for each specific opportunity that they are involved in. So it's unique that it is a fund where we're curating opportunities and providing. Insights on where we see risk where there might be a fit in certain parts of portfolios, telling people that maybe this isn't a good fit for you necessarily. But it gives us the option to grow with our investors and have an ala carte option for them to look and say, okay, I like this deal or no, not this one. and just keep it simplified with one set of documents in mind.

Speaker: 11:46

No, that is a good thing. So investors get to choose the investment that matches their investment criteria. One of the things that we'll see whenever we have, economic downturn in the stock market or, other measurements that we use to track our investment portfolio is that sometime we have no idea what affects the performance of the stock market. However, when you invest in with an individual or a small group, you get that report on a monthly basis. You also get your checks on a monthly basis. You also have a person that you can reach out to and say, can you explain to me what's this saying financial statement or what is going at this property? No. the benefits of having direct access to the person who's doing the thing. I think it's a good thing for investors invest in a fund, but also being able to choose the property that he wants to invest in. Now, can you tell us a little more about that? About, so you do the funds model, what's the difference between, and why not go with the code GP model being that you're able to raise a bigger check.

Speaker 2: 12:43

There are certainly some pros and cons to the coach GP situation. And I have not done it myself, and I'm not saying I would never do it. But, when you talk about being a general partner, you have to have an active role on the team. for me. When I look at what active means, it means I'm boots on the ground. It means I'm involved in the day to day. It means I'm helping with asset management or helping with some of the backend things such as taxes, insurance, legal, et cetera. and I feel like I could do those things cause I have experience in these realms, as far as an active investor, if it were in my local market. But, the SEC regulates these sorts of structures. And if you're a co general partner and you live in California and you're investing in a deal in Indiana, there's potential that you could be, active on the team, like I said, with the back office type stuff, but it's just a little less, compliant, a little less. Black and white. It's more gray in my opinion. so we stayed away from those types of structures, particularly with deals where you see 9, 10, 12 co GPS involved. There's just there's too many cooks in the kitchen and it just, it doesn't look above board. So with the fund structure, we are inherently taking a limited partner position, which means that we are bringing capital the deal and we don't have an active role. our role is the capital. we feel more comfortable and it allows us to be nimble too. We're asset agnostic, so we are able to invest in both debt and equity, up and down the capital stack. We invest in, other funds, single, I should say like debt funds, not, we do single assets when it comes to common equity or preferred equity. We can pick between things like industrial assets, multifamily assets, retail. self storage, mobile home parks. there's no way that we could co GP and have an active role because we don't know those asset classes inside and out to be active participants and operators in the field. But as limited partners, we understand. Real estate. We understand how to underwrite the deals. We understand how to find sponsors. So the fund model just gives us a little bit more flexibility to execute our business plan.

Speaker: 14:43

Okay. Tight, tight. Appreciate that, man. So that leads me to my next question about the current investment focus, so in the term of strategy, what type of investment are you focused on today? Are there specific asset classes, location, deals structure that you're particularly interested in right now?

Speaker 2: 15:00

Yeah, sure. we have been very focused on, debt funds. a lot of our investors miss cashflow. And for the last few years, a lot of them were weighted heavily into multifamily type deals. Right. as we talked about at the beginning of the show, those deals had. Cashflow eroded by rising debt costs, and some of them are in trouble. They've had distributions paused, capital calls. So there's a little bit of a sentiment issue at this point. and for the last, couple of years we could earn, double digit returns on debt. And, last year we paid 14.04 on our debt products to our investors. So there's a need for capital in the marketplace. you can do it conservatively in the senior, first position. and, lenders disappeared from the space for a little bit, at least not everybody, of course, but the market dried up a little bit. There was a need for capital demand and low supply. So a lot of these lenders that we've worked with have been able to charge higher interest rates, and we've been able to participate in that via high income for our investors. So we've liked that. We still like that, starting to like multifamily again, things have smoothed out a little bit, interest rates have stabilized and the federal funds rate is coming down. I don't know if I'm ready to jump on the bridge debt wagon at this point, but if you can find, opportunities with a good going in basis with a strong team that has a lot of operational success through market cycles, and, you can find something that isn't predicated on a lot of assumptions that may or may not come true, but it's just a good, solid deal that. If we do get some tailwinds in the market, we'll perform extremely well, but if we get some headwinds, we'll still be, okay. we like those types of situations. outside of that, we like, flex industrial space. That's your multi tenant industrial building that maybe is a franchise owner that works out of, there has a small office up front to meet with the team before they deploy in the field and has some space for their overhead. There's very little, in the way of. Available space to lease for that type of stuff and, there's very strong headwinds to be able to build that as well, just because of the cost of construction. So if you can find available deals, whether it's a supply and demand imbalance, we like that. And then neighborhood retail strip centers that are not grocery anchored. We'd like those as well, because there's some value add opportunities and, B class type neighborhoods where you can fill vacancies or update exteriors or, make parking lots look much nicer. you can probably buy those that are going in cap rate of 8%, And if you can operate the business plan correctly you can. End up with an operating cap rate of 12 or 13%. that basically means you're creating value, in layman's terms, and you're driving the value of the property up. and also generating cashflow. So that's the ideal scenario. we really like those, but we're open minded to other asset classes as well.

Speaker: 17:36

That's good. And it's really good to be able to provide that level of diversification, to the passive investor. Now, let me ask you this, man. given the economic climate, what factors are you prioritizing when evaluating new investment opportunities, for your fund?

Speaker 2: 17:50

Margin of safety is number one. Absolutely. we're looking for downside protection, preservation of principle. we're not shooting for the moon, appreciation plays. Absolutely. are nice when they work out, but, that's not our priority. Our priority really is to get into a safe position where we can earn some cashflow because just like in any business, cashflow is the lifeblood of the business and real estate is a business. Cashflow has been pretty low today, but if we feel like we can get into an equity position and, feel like we've got really good downside protection on going in, then we feel good about the deal and we're less concerned about, shooting for the stars and getting 40 or 50 percent IRR, like we might've seen five or six years ago. So it's really just, trying to be cautious and, cautiously optimistic. we think that there are some good plays out there, but the market has become very efficient. There's a lot of players out there. There's a lot of capital that's sitting on the sideline, ready to deploy. And when you have an efficient market like that returns naturally come down. I think, returns will be lower than we've seen over the last decade. but real estate is always a very strong, asset class, the best asset class in the world, in my opinion.

Speaker: 18:51

Yeah, no doubt. I think that's one of the reasons why I'm betting on that so much, So when I came to America, my dad, told me about, how I can. Own some of America. And then as I speak to people like yourself, I learn more and more, over the past several years is that I can own more of America. so it's definitely a good way to build some wealth. We talk about debt. We talk about equity. I would like for you to speak a little bit more about a difference between the two. And then we're going to get, Oh, what I like to get into the diversification of portfolio. So can you explain to our listeners a little bit more about, debt and equity in real estate? As it applies to your fund,

Speaker 2: 19:23

sure. What you're referring to is the capital stack, right? when a, I think it's best illustrated by an example. So let's say a commercial real estate deal costs 10 million. That's the purchase price. the buyer, the sponsor needs to find sources of capital to execute that transaction. the debt is the bottom of the capital stack. And that means that they have the first position. They're the actually the last money in, First money out of a deal, this is bank debt or agency debt or, life insurance companies provide debt for deals. And typically that makes up anywhere from 20 to 50 percent of the total equity requirements. If it's a 10 million deal, the lender would provide, or excuse me, it's 80%, 50 to 80%. They would provide. A big chunk of the capital, the biggest player as far as the capital stack is concerned. So they're going to provide 5 million to 8 million in that example. Now the shortfall, let's just say that they provide 5 million. The shortfall is where the equity comes in. there's the senior debt. Then on top of that might be a mezzanine layer. They're in second position, then the equity. So you've got both preferred equity. And then you've got common equity, which is at the very top of the capital stack. And basically the capital stack is made up and that's where the fund would come in or the family office or the high net worth individual, or the individual investor that can allocate smaller chunks. And they would aggregate these checks to get to that 10 million number and whole. But as you look at the capital stack, Risk and reward are directly correlated. So as you move up the capital stack risk goes up, but returns also, or the potential for those returns goes up. So you have to measure that and find the best risk adjusted return, meaning that, ideally you want to find an asymmetric imbalance where you're earning a lot of. Return and not taking on as much risk. And that's what we found. We feel like in these debt funds as of late as they're paying higher income, but they're also in the first position as far as priority of payment.

Speaker: 21:20

Yeah. So you're able to diversify within the fund. Now let's talk about the diversification in, for a limited partner. So you emphasize the importance of diversification, for limited partners. why is diversification so critical, especially in today's market?

Speaker 2: 21:33

Man. it's just like stocks and bonds, right? You don't want to have all your money in one stock or, one company, right? It's, it becomes very risky when things are volatile, that could be really good, it could work out well, and you could go to the moon, but you could also hit rock bottom and lose your entire balance. So if you think about the real estate world, office is probably the most distressed asset class when the pandemic hit. The work from home movement started. A lot of people never went back to their offices, downtown, and now you've got these vacant office buildings that are worth, fraction of what they were worth before the pandemic. And they've got debt that's maturing and it's a big mess. That's going to take a long time to work through, multifamily hit a rocky road for a couple of years. So by diversifying amongst different asset classes, if one is not performing well at a certain time in the market cycle, the others may do well for you. Same with debt and equity. I think about that in real estate, similar to stocks and bonds, the equity positions of the stocks, the debt positions of the bonds, they pay fixed income, they're going to pay out consistently ideally, but they don't offer some of the benefits that equity does like appreciation, potential tax benefits, tenants that pay down your loan for you. So that's where the equity offers more growth. And the debt, offers more, value if you want to call it that, but just, something a little bit more stable. That's going to pay consistently. So we really believe that diversification is critical. It can be difficult with passive investing because, investment minimums can be high, 25, 000, or as we talked about earlier, a million or more. Depending on your net worth, you probably want to find an allocation strategy that makes sense where you can work your way into diversifying by sponsor, geography, asset class, property class, meaning, a class brand new buildings or C class value add that maybe are older, but if you renovate and drive the value, you can raise rents and make the property worth more. I like to diversify in equity positions by debt maturity, especially prudent now, after you saw what happened in the last few years with interest rates rising, you don't want a bunch of deals that you have with loans on them that all mature at the same time, in the wrong time, and then you've got a real mess to try to figure out with trying to get those refinanced or those properties sold at lower values. diversification, I find to be extremely important, no matter what asset class we talk about. Gotcha, man.

Speaker: 23:48

I appreciate that. Before we get into the focus run, can you tell us a little bit more about, who's your target audience? who's your fund for, most money is green, right? And we'll accept most money, right? As long as, those folks can fit the investments, criteria or the risk, they have the risk capacity and risk tolerance, right? Which is a part of our responsibility to talk, to speak to every single investor, to make sure that they're, what they're projecting to invest, they can actually afford to invest that capital, right? money's money. However, we want to ensure that the people that are invested with us is for the long haul, right? So can you tell us a little bit more about who your fund is for?

Speaker 2: 24:23

Sure. Absolutely. we focus on. Those that are interested in diversifying away from traditional markets into alternative investments, specifically real estate, passively. And they don't want to be the type of passive investor that's active. they don't want to be. combing through hundreds of different passive investing deals. And when they find the 10 that they really like, they're reading through hundreds of pages of documents and underwriting the deals in Excel spreadsheets, we are appealing to the investor that finds value and us doing that part of it for them and teeing up curated opportunities where we feel like there's solid risk adjusted returns. And then we try to identify all the risks that we see, although we highlight that we may not know all of them. and that the results are not guaranteed. We do not make recommendations, but I think our investors are busy professionals that appreciate, folks that are doing this full time, to curate those opportunities and look through and make those presentations to see if it fits within their risk tolerance and investment philosophies.

Speaker: 25:24

Gotcha. So what you fund, is it more of the credit investor.

Speaker 2: 25:28

We are a 506 C. So we are for accredited investors only.

Speaker: 25:30

Appreciate it, man. as a wrap up here, Paul, we're just going to run into a focus run, it's like a lightning round, what do you do for fun?

Speaker 2: 25:36

Oh man, I love to go boating in the summer and I love to go skiing in the winter and I'm a big fitness enthusiast so I gotta stay in shape for those activities.

Speaker: 25:43

What is one opportunity that was a game changer for you?

Speaker 2: 25:45

It was being a part of a community that used to be the left field investors and now passive pockets. I think the information, that you can gain and the networking capability and the ability to vet different opportunities through a community, it really doesn't matter if we're talking about real estate or anything that you're interested in life, if you can find like minded individuals to gather around, you're going to elevate yourself.

Speaker: 26:05

Okay. What would you say is the most important communication tip?

Speaker 2: 26:07

Be able to explain what it is that you want to somebody else in 90 seconds or less. That will be impressive to them and they will know that you mean business.

Speaker: 26:14

What is one thing you wish you understood earlier?

Speaker 2: 26:15

That team is so important and community is important, but specifically to running a business, you need people that are complimentary to your skill sets. And, there's a lot of shortcomings that I have that I need to fill gaps with. So I need to find people that can do what I can't.

Speaker: 26:29

And last one, to what do you attribute your success?

Speaker 2: 26:32

Never giving up. Absolutely. 100%. There are days. There's a lot of days where I'm like, man, banging my head against the wall. I wish things were going differently. What do I got to do to make this happen I've stopped thinking so far ahead though, and started to focus on what's the process and what can I do every day to be consistent. And there's going to be days where the ball doesn't move forward a lot. And then there's going to be other days where it's going to be. You get, multiple first downs towards the end zone. So I think just consistently working and not getting down yourself when things don't go the way you want them to immediately. And if you trust in the process, it's inevitable when your result will happen.

Speaker: 27:02

I want to thank you so much for being a part of this episodes, man. If our listeners want to get in touch with you, how did it go about doing that?

Speaker 2: 27:10

I really enjoyed the opportunity. Thanks for having me here today. you can check me out at investwisecollective. com or, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn too. Paul Shannon on LinkedIn.

Speaker: 27:17

listeners. I want to thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Multifamily Real Estate Experiment. Podcast. I trust that this information, that Paul share with you is valuable. And of course you hear his contact, reach out to him. If you have any question, we'll make sure we have his LinkedIn, tag in the show notes of this episode. So until next time, I'm Hutch, the Marine Investor, out.