Older adults are often left out of the design process when new technologies are created. This leaves them with a less than optimal experience, and can even be dangerous to their health.
Digital technology needs to be designed for everyone, not just young people who grew up with it as part of their daily lives. Technology companies need to include older adults in the design process from the beginning if they want to create products that will really work well for this demographic.
Not all older people need help, but some do. Most people go through a period of needing extra support as they age, and many more will be affected by this than we think because life expectancy is increasing rapidly. Many older adults are interested in using new technologies to stay connected with their families and friends or to make it easier for them to manage their finances or get around town independently, but these technologies aren't always designed with seniors' needs in mind. The result is that they can find themselves excluded from the benefits of modern technology – a loss not just for them personally, but also for society at large.
Design teams should include older members or hire outside advisors who can give feedback during product development and testing phases so that all users have an equal chance at success using these devices and apps.
[00:00] Pre-intro dialogue from Jeff Johnson
[02:33] Friendly get to know you
[03:17] Introduction to Jeff Johnson
[04:08] Why did you choose to concentrate on the user interface, design, and how did your background in psychology help you pursue this?
[06:18] How do you feel about, the way that technology is often not designed to accommodate older adults?
[11:16] What are some of the benefits older adults are missing out on because of this disconnect?
[12:41] Are there any features in new gadgets and websites that appeal to older adults and have made their lives better?
[16:44] Today's technology does not work the same as how people think. There is a mismatch between the way things work and what we think.
[18:25] How can technology companies make sure their product services are accessible to older adults?
[21:51] Are there circumstances where making a separate offering for older adults makes more sense than trying to design one technology that works across all levels of ability?
[24:13] Do you think a shift in the way we view elders in society would help make technology more accessible?
[28:45] There are many misconceptions about how older adults use technology and their relationship with it. If you could have everyone understand one thing about the way this relationship works, what would that be?
[30:37] What's your favorite aging-related label or classification system that is used at your organization?
[33:36] Do you have any other thoughts?
[35:43] How do people find you and your book?
Professor Jeff Johnson is a computer scientist who has been in the field for over 40 years. He has worked as an engineer manager, usability tester, and researcher at multiple companies including Cromemco, Xerox, US West, Hewlett-Packard Labs, and Sun Microsystems.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, he was chair of Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility. He's taught at Stanford University Mills College, and in 2006 and 2013 taught HCI as an Erskine Fellow at the University of Canterbury in New Zealand. Since 2004 he has served on the SIGCHI Public Policy Committee. In 2013 he presented to Congress about privacy concerns with Facebook’s Timeline feature.
Most people, is their mental models of how the world works and how equipment works is based on the technology that was dominant when they were between the ages of 10 and 30. Those are, what's called the maturational years for people. That's when people emerge and they become a personality, they become someone separate from their parents. Okay. And then during, so during those years, the technology that's dominant becomes the one that you are used to. And the one that you're stuck on. Okay. Most people don't like to think that they get stuck, but most people actually do get stuck. And so, think of it this way. When I was between 10 and 30, a television set had some controls, it had buttons and switches on the front and that was it. I didn't have to navigate through different screens of the application in order to find the functionality that I wanted. Similarly, a car dashboard was the same way. Everything that I needed was right there on a switch or a button on the screen. But now, fast forward to today where you've got technology that requires me to navigate. I have to go, "Where am I in this application to, can I find my way to the functionality that I want? Where am I in this website?" And your average older adult peer person, someone over 60 or 70 these days, doesn't really think of the world in those terms. "Where am I in this application?" Okay. And so, that can actually make a big difference.Hanh:
How are you?Jeff:
Pretty good. We get intermittent fog here in San Francisco, but right now it's sunny. So it's good.Hanh:
I love San Francisco.Jeff:
You're located where?Hanh:
I'm in Michigan. I'm about 15 minutes away from Ann Arbor. Yeah, we get four seasons here and today's okay. It's actually cooler than normal, but I'm fine with it. I love San Francisco. I reached out to you is I mean as you know, technology is just exponentially growing as far as in the health sector helping older adults to age in place, let's say. Some they actually use whether it's their children or loved ones, set it up for them. So, I felt that it was really important that to have your input as part of this very important topic. So, thank you for your time.Jeff:
So, today I'm, Boomer Living, I'm joined by Jeffrey Johnson. He's the computer science professor at the University of San Francisco. His background is also in psychology, which sets him apart from other practitioners that allows him to examine how people interact with technologies and computers. His work focuses on the human computer interaction and designing computer programs for optimal user experience, particularly for seniors. So, professor Johnson recently won an award from the special interest group on computer human interaction. It was one of the earliest people to study human computer interaction when it was just starting out and is considered a trailblazer in that field. So, Jeffrey, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the show.Jeff:
Thank you for having me on the show.Hanh:
Great. So, first can we talk about your background? I know you have a doctorate in psychology, which is what you studied for your undergraduate degree. Now, why did you choose to concentrate on user interface, design, and how did your background in psychology help you pursue this?Jeff:
When I was finishing my Psychology degree at Stanford, there were a couple of different options for people with psychology degrees. One of them was to flip hamburgers and then the other option was to go become a professor of computer psychology, somewhere at a university. And those jobs, the ladder type of job was hard to get. At that time, which was in the late 1970s, a lot of computer companies were starting to try to target their computers toward the regular consumer rather than scientists and engineers. And so, they were getting more interested in hiring. People who had a background in psychology so that they could design their products to be more usable by the normal citizens. I was recruited by a lot of different companies and I ended up going to work for a company in Silicon valley called Cromemco. That company no longer exists, but it existed for 10 years. I worked for them for a while, helping them to design software that was easy to use. By regular consumers. And then I went to work for Xerox. And then I went to work for a series of other companies in Silicon valley doing more or less the same thing. And then eventually I became a consultant did consulting for a number of companies, helping them, making their computers easier to use. And then I was hired by the university of San Francisco to teach computer science. And so, that's why I'm in a, kind of an unusual situation in that I'm in a computer science department professor of computer science yet my undergraduate degree and graduate degree are both in psychology.Hanh:
That's exciting, cause that brings very valuable input into the technology design. So, many of the new technologies being developed are good for older adults, but they are not often designed to be easy for them to use. So, it's frustrating that technology targeting, let's say people over 60 years old are often difficult to use and don't meet their needs. So, how do you feel about, the way that technology is often not designed to accommodate older adults?Jeff:
Well, the thing is it's an ironic situation because for older adults who have lost some degree of mobility, high technology can actually help them a lot. It can actually help older adults more than it can help younger people because people can use technology. Older adults can use technology in order to shop in order to do business with the government, their local government or the national government, and communicate with their families and all sorts of things. But the irony, as you pointed out is that technology is often inaccessible to those same older adults. And just because it happens to be, have been designed by younger people for themselves and not for the older adults. And I'm interested in doing is designing technology in ways that allow older adults to use it and not block them from using it. So, to put it another way, I'm not really interested in specifically designing technology for older adults, because one problem with that is when you do that, then basically you're shutting out the younger market and older adults don't want to use those products that brand them as being old. See, nobody wants to think of themselves as old. In fact, the AARP did a study in which they found, they asked people, "Who is old? What makes someone old?" And what they found is that no one is old. Your parents are the ones who are old, no matter how old you are. And so, nobody would wants to think of themselves as old. And so, if I designed, for example, a cell phone that was specifically designed for older adults, and by the way, such cell phones do exist, most older adults don't want to use them because that brands them being old. And so, my emphasis, and the emphasis that I pointed out in the book that I co-wrote with Dr. Kate Finn, is we want to design technology for "All", so that it doesn't block older adults from using it. So, let me give you an example of how a technology can come about that helps everyone and not just older adults. And my favorite example is the "Curb Cut". And that doesn't seem like technology really, but, in cities, across the United States people were having trouble getting around the cities because they were in wheelchairs. And so, people in wheelchairs made demands and said, "You have to design this town so that I can actually get around in my wheelchair." Or if you're pushing a Walker, let's say it might be difficult for you to go up and down a curb. So, cities enacted laws saying that they had to put in curb cuts. And so, they put in curb cuts for a very specific group. But it turns out that 90% of the people who use curb cuts are not people in wheelchairs and people pushing walkers, their kids on skateboards, people pushing shopping carts, people pulling roller bags, people on bicycles, people pushing strollers, all sorts of people. So, most of the people who benefit from curb cuts are actually not the people they were intended to be, who they were intended to benefit. That's what we're looking for in technology. We're looking for a way to make an app easier to use for everyone that regardless of their age, and to not block older adults from having being able to use it. So, so an example for an app would be older adults, for example, have trouble. Many older adults have hand tremors or they have arthritis. Executing complicated gestures on the screen of a cell phone, like pinch and spread in order to zoom in and zoom out might be difficult for them. So, why not have a plus button and a minus button on the screen as well? I'm not saying don't let younger people use pension spread to zoom in and zoom out. I'm saying, put that plus button and minus button there as well. So that older adults who can't do pension spread are not shut out from using the application.Hanh:
Very true. Absolutely. That's a great advice. Now, what are some of the benefits you think older adults are missing out on because of this disconnect?Jeff:
Because of the disconnect many older kids, first of all are frustrated. They can't figure out how to let's say, access social security information online. Maybe they can't renew their driver's license online. Maybe they can't shop online as easily. I've done some studies with older adults trying to use travel sites. By the way, the travel sites that we did the studies with were intended for older adults. That is, they were travel sites that were put up by a road scholar and by I think Grand Circle Travel and other travel agencies that, that target older adults. And in fact, what we found is that with those sites, many adults, older adults can use the sites to find out what trips are available, but they're unwilling to try to book on those sites because, so they just get on the phone and they call somebody. And so, it turns out that if you were to design those sites so that older adults could actually complete a booking on the site, then you wouldn't have to have a call center with hundreds of people answering your phones. And so, it would be less expensive for the companies.Hanh:
So, let's say are there any features in new gadgets and websites that appeal to older adults and have made their lives better?Jeff:
Well, the first thing that most people think of when they're thinking about how to design products for older adults is make the fonts bigger. Make the text bigger. And that's a trouble, that's a problem that many older adults do have. In fact, when, even not only with technology, but even when you just go to the store and you pick up a bottle and you can't read the text on the label. But with technology in particular, if you've got a phone or you've got a tablet computer, or even a laptop computer, and the fonts are too small, it makes it harder for older adults to be able to understand what information is being presented to them. So, that's the first thing people, most people think about. But in fact, there are other problems that older adults face in using technology besides small fonts. And in fact, I consider small fonts to be just the tip of the iceberg. The real problem is a mismatch between the way the application works and the user, the older adults, mental model of how things work in the world. So, think of it this way I grew up. So, I'm a baby boomer, right? Full disclosure, I'm approaching 70 years old. And so, I grew up in an era where the technology, the dominant technology was electronic analog, analog electronic. It was not digital electronic, okay? So, one could think that my mental models of how the world works will be based on that. And in fact, that's what happens with most people is their mental models of how the world works and how equipment works is based on the technology that was dominant when they were between the ages of 10 and 30. Those are, what's called the maturational years for people. That's when people emerge and they become a personality, they become someone separate from their parents, okay. And then during, so during those years, the technology that's dominant becomes the one that you are used to. And the one that you're stuck on, okay? Most people don't like to think that they get stuck, but most people actually do get stuck. And so, think of it this way, when I was between 10 and 30, a television set had some controls, it had buttons and switches on the front and that was it. I didn't have to navigate through different screens of the application in order to find the functionality that I wanted. Similarly, a car dashboard was the same way. Everything that I needed was right there on a switch or a button on the screen. But now, fast forward to today where you've got technology that requires me to navigate. I have to go, "Where am I in this application? Can I find my way to the functionality that I want? Where am I in this website?" And your average older adult peer person, someone over 60 or 70 these days, doesn't really think of the world in those terms. "Where am I in this application?" Okay? And so, that can actually make a big difference. In fact, one of the funny things is that I've done usability studies with older adults and I'll sit there myself and I'll say, "Okay, where do you think you are right now?" Meaning I'm asking them "Where are they in the app?" And they'll look at me and they'll say, "What do you mean? I'm still sitting here in this chair, in front of this computer. What are you talking about? Where am I?"Hanh:
Yeah. So, what you're saying is the problem is that today's technology does not work the same as how people think, that this is a mismatch between the way things work and what we think. Is that right? It's very confusing.Jeff:
Yes. Yes. What I was trying, the point I'm trying to get across is that, yes fonts that are too small and other things that have to do with vision and hearing and things like that, do make a difference. But the mismatch between the mental models that people have and how the equipment works is a bigger issue. And frankly, it's not an issue, that's going to go away. Some people say "As soon as all these old adults die off, then everything will be fine because everyone will be tech savvy."Hanh:
That was my next question. Yeah.Jeff:
Yeah, but that's false because technology doesn't stop developing. And so, the kids today who they don't, they, my students don't really believe me when I tell them this, but I tell them you're going to get stuck too, because your kids are going to come to you and your kids are going to say, "Mom, why do you keep Instagramming me? Nobody uses Instagram anymore. I use Mindlink. What, get what the program and start using Mindlink." And the mother is going to say, "No, I just can't get this Mindlink.. I can't get my mind around this Mindlink thing." So, everyone gets stuck in the technology that was around when they were growing up and that's not going to change.Hanh:
So, then how can technology companies make sure their product services are accessible to older adults, you think?Jeff:
Well there are a couple of different ways that tech companies do it. One is that they hire consultants who are experts in that to help them. But the main two ways that they do it are that they hire older adult as designers, that's one way they can do it. They can have older adults and there are some, there are older adults who work as designers. I, before I became a faculty member, that's one of the things that I did. They're even, there are people in their nineties who are working as designers for companies to help them design products for older adults. So, that's one. Another way is to give training to the younger adults who are their primary developers and designers. I wrote a book about this in order to be able to train those younger people. And that's one way is to train the younger adults. What some companies have done is something called. "Empathic Design". So, in empathic design, what you do is you put some kind of, you make young adults wear something that impairs them in some way. So you, they have glasses that blur their vision. Or you give them a suit that makes it harder for them to move in, or jumpsuit that is, has straps on it so that they can't move as easily. Knees don't bend as easily.Hanh:
Right. A simulated situation.Jeff:
Yes. To simulate the situation. And so, that allows people to see, "Oh, maybe an older adult is not going to be able to bend as much as I am in order to get in and out of this car. Or maybe an older adult is not going to be able to hit the keys on this keyboard, that where the, where there are tiny keys. Or maybe an older adult is not going to be able to reliably hit the areas on the screen that I'm expecting them to hit." Things like that. And so, that's what's called a empathic design. Then another way is to recruit when you're doing your usability testing of your product, make sure that older adults are included in the cohort of people who are brought into your lab to participate in your usability test because, most companies, when they do usability testing, what they do is they go out and they recruit young people who can easily get to the lab to participate in the usability tests. It's harder to get older adults to come in because they have trouble getting into where you're doing the tests. So, when actually, when we did our usability test of those travel sites that I was mentioning earlier, we actually went to them and did the tests at their homes, which means by the way that we often had to, before doing the test, we had to have the cookies that they offered to us and the tea.Hanh:
You're suggesting a bottom up design as opposed to a top-down down design.Jeff:
Yes. Right. Employ the older adults as members of your team, or if they're not members of your team, at least they are test participants when you're doing testing.Hanh:
Great. Great. Now, are there circumstances where making a separate offering for older adults makes more sense than trying to design one technology that works across all levels of ability?Jeff:
There could be some circumstances that are like that. I'm just trying to think of some, but and in fact, some many companies have done that. So, I mentioned earlier that there are phones that are designed for older adults. There's the jitterbug phone which is designed for older adults, and it has this simplified set of features. And that works for some older adults. The trouble is, as I said earlier, that some people don't want to be seen in public with those kinds of products, because that means that I'm old++I++have++this++pride++I'm++old.Hanh:
Right. That stigma, right?Jeff:
If it's something that you use in your home. So, for example there are special laptop computers that many senior homes buy, nursing homes and places like that, or continuing care homes buy these special laptop computers that have a simplified screen. And basically it has five buttons on it. It's, uh, you know, one of them's shopping, one of them is communicate with my relatives. Another one is, take a picture, another one, a shortlist like that. And so, that's fine. That's not, you're going to go not, and going out into public with that laptop, you're using it in your own apartment. And so, it's not something that you have to be embarrassed about. But, as I said, technology can often help older adults live in place in their own home longer. So, for example, one example, and this doesn't really involve digital technology, but I know when one of my uncles was getting old, he developed glaucoma. And so, he couldn't, reading was really important to him, to be able to read. Cause he read a lot in his life and, but when he developed glaucoma and he couldn't continue to read so well. And so, I just went into his house, his apartment, and I replaced all the 50 watt light bulbs with 150 watt light bulbs. And that brought back his ability to read much more. And so, he was able to continue in his apartment and enjoy life for several more years.Hanh:
Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I think that a lot of the reason older adults are left out of the user interface design may be due to the ageism that is so rampant in this country. Do you think a shift in the way we view elders in the society would help make technology more accessible?Jeff:
Yes, it would. There are societies in the world in which older people are revered and thought up thought very highly of. That's not the society that we live in the west, for the most part. And, when I, when you go to these companies and you tell them that, your products are not really designed very well for older adults, many of them say, "Oh yeah. We're not really targeting, are targeted older adults because that's not where the big market is. The big market is the young, the young people." But you have to remember when does someone actually become an older adult? It varies with, from one person to another, but researchers actually consider 50 the threshold for when someone is considered an older adult. Now, that's an arbitrary threshold, but as people progress in terms of the disabilities that they develop over their life, differently. Everyone develops differently. And so, there are 90 year olds who are still running marathons and there are, but there are 60 year olds who are in nursing homes, okay? And so, some people do better with certain things than others. Like for example, I have trouble with hearing. I listened to too many loud music rock concerts in my youth. And so, my high-frequency hearing is gone. So, I have to wear hearing aids some of the time. And I'm wearing them right now, for example. But, but my vision is still quite good, okay? And so, with different people, different maladies develop over the course of their life, and they would need help with that issue. So, for example, one of the things that comes up is "Should we caption videos and movies, and things like that, so that people who have trouble with hearing can see what's going on, can understand what's going on?" And so, the answer is the design guideline is "Don't just present information in one medium present it in multiple media at the same time." So, having captions is actually a very good thing. But, getting back to my earlier point, captions on videos and television shows and movies don't just help over older adults. If you're in a sports bar and people are talking and you want to know what's going on, it helps you there. If you're in an airport and people are calling out all the flights and you want to watch the news, the captions help you there too. That's, now we were getting through your question was about, "Can we design products specifically for older adults?" I think we definitely can, but the question is then how do we market those in a way that makes it okay, for older adults to use them? There's a guy in San Francisco. I can't remember the name of the company, but there's a guy in San Francisco that's developing a wheelchair that he hopes will be so cool that everyone will want to use one, just like people use those scooters that go get around and the people use those One Wheeler things to get around. He wants this wheelchair to be so cool, that everyone wants it and not just older people. And so, what he does, it's really funny. He shows up at parties in the wheelchair, driving around in the wheelchair. And so, people think, okay, this is a, a handicap guy and they'll bring him to drinks of coffee and things like that, bring him drinks and get food for him from the food table and stuff, cause they think he's disabled. And then halfway through the party, he gets up and starts walking around. He's not disabled at all, but he just wants to show that this is such a cool wheelchair that, you should want one too.Hanh:
Sure. I mean it's, it's a paradigm shift. I think we're all having to make, and it starts with every single one of us, as far as this notion of old or aging and whether it's cool or uncool, because this whole topic of age-ism designing for them or with the older adults in mind. I think it's time is due. And I think it starts with a paradigm shift and it starts with every, every single one of us. Now, now there are many misconceptions about how older adults use technology and their relationship with it. If you could have everyone understand one thing about the way this relationship works, what would that be?Jeff:
Older adults aren't worse at everything than younger adults. That's, there's this there's a myth that older adults are worse at everything, with that has to do with technology than younger adults are. And that's not true. Studies have shown that when you give people a search task. There are two kinds of search tasks, what are called well-defined search tasks. "What is the capital of Haiti?" That's a well-defined search task. An unwell defined search task is Find a vacation that you would like." Okay. So, it turns out that younger adults are faster than older adults at many tasks on computers, including "Well-defined" search tasks, but older adults tend to be faster than younger adults are at what are called "Unwell-defined" or "Poorly-defined" search tasks. So, when you give someone a task to find, go to Amazon dot com and find a product that you would like. That's not a well-defined search task. Older adults tend to do better at those. Why? Because they have more knowledge of the world. They've been around longer. They have more world savvy, okay? They have more experience. They know more about what they like and they don't like, okay. So, they are better at those tasks than younger adults. And they're, that's not the only task. There are other tasks at which older adults are actually better than younger adults because they have larger vocabularies. They know more. They've been around longer, and have more experience.Hanh:
Very true. Very true. Now, do you have, let's say a favorite aging related label or classification system that you folks use at your organization?Jeff:
You mean what, what do we call people who are older? Is that what you mean?Hanh:
Okay. Well when we first, when my colleague Kate Finn and I started writing this book, we had, we went back and forth on what are we going to call the group of people that we're talking about here? And it turned out that the research community that does research on designing for older adults, uses the word "Older adults". They don't say "Old adults", they say "Older adults". And they don't say "Seniors", because there is, there's ambiguities there sometimes, somebody could be a college senior or a high school senior, and that's not the same as a senior citizen. There's, there are other terms that have been used as well, "Geezers", "Boomers". And so we, we settle on older adults more largely because that's what the research community uses as its term. And again, as I said earlier, we picked 50 as the age at which we classify someone as an older adult. As I said earlier, some of the companies that we talked to said, "We don't design products for older adults, so we don't really care about that market. That's not really a big market for us." But in fact, many people who are 50, they still have parents who are alive and they're caring for those parents. And so, even if you don't think of yourself as old, you might need to still understand how to get products that are designed for products and services that are designed for older adults, because you might be caring for one, even if you don't consider yourself to be one.Hanh:
Right, right. Absolutely. I am, in my mid fifties, and a lot of the issues that you described, I experienced that too. I guess I'm a young baby boomer and also in caring for my my mom and dad and my siblings are in their later sixties. One is inseventies. You know, for every age group cohort of older adults, there are many, right? Between 50 and 55, or 55 or 60. So, each one of those cohorts have different needs, expectations, likes, and dislikes. So, I think it's important to recognize each of those breakdowns. To be very mindful because when designing products, your end-user or actually you have many users, one of which is the older adults, but there are several layers of people before it can even be used by older adults, meaning the caregiver. If you're at a community, maybe somebody in the front desk, or maybe somebody that's the decision maker to buy the product. So, I think to be very mindful, you have to satisfy expectations above what the older adults need. So, I agree.Jeff:
Do you haveJeff:
I agree with that.Hanh:
any other thoughts that you would like to share?Jeff:
Let's see. I've mentioned that the technology companies should really bring older adults onto their design teams, either as participants in the team or participants in the tests. The other thing I want to mention is that many younger people can experience temporarily because of the circumstance they're in some of the disabilities that older adults experience. So, for example, you're out by the swimming pool, trying to look at your cell phone, but the sun's glaring. So, now you have the problem that older adults have. Many older adults have a glare problem because of scratches on their cornea or on their lens, and that causes glare and that makes it hard for them to see things when they're in bright light. So, many younger adults do experience the problem with glare, but only temporarily. So, if a cell phone could be designed so that you'd actually see it while you're next to the swimming pool, that would be wonderful. You're on a bus and you're trying to text someone on your cell phone and you're twenty-five years old, but the bus is jumping, is bumping up and down and you can't really, so now you've got hand tremors essentially. So, it would be wonderful if we could design that phone so that you could actually text at the age of 25 on a bumpy road on a bus. And that would help older adults as well. The point is that younger adults often are temporarily handicapped in some of the same ways that older adults have to experience.Hanh:
Absolutely. You mentioned the glare problem. I have that problem. The light on the phone, blue light or anything that's glaring, it bothers me a lot. So, I have to turn that blue light to a warm look to it. And I have to dim it. Oh yeah, whether it's night or day time, I have to dim it. So, yeah. It's real. I really appreciate your time. And how do people find you? Where can they go? And what about your book? Where do they go to find your book?Jeff:
Okay. Well the book is "Designing User Interfaces for an Aging Population". But if you look up designing for an aging population at Amazon or any other, any bookseller, you'll find it. So, I do of course recommend the book. I, my coauthor Kate, Dr. Kate Finn is quite a good writer. And so, we were able to put together what I believe to be quite a good book, which has guidelines in it for how to design technology. Yeah, so, in terms of how to reach me, I work at the University of San Francisco in the computer science department for at least another year or so. I might be retiring eventually as I'll be 70 next year. And, but that's where I can be reachedHanh:
Great. Well, I thank you so much for your time and have a great day.Jeff:
Okay. Okay. Thank you so much.