When Systems Push Back

Change rarely fails because the plan is bad; it fails because anxious systems push back. We dive into the emotional mechanics of resistance—sabotage, cutoff, and the way fear shrinks a congregation’s imagination—and we explore how a well-differentiated leader can stay calm, connected, and faithful without caving to togetherness pressure. Show how you can respond without becoming reactive or rigid.

We describe the roles sabotage often takes in congregations: the Fan, the Expert, the Investor , the Docent , the Observer , the Reporter, the Peacemaker, and the Opposition . Not as personal betrayals, instead we frame them as grief responses to loss.  Abuse requires distance; difficulty requires endurance. Reconciliation remains the aim.

Underneath it all sits imagination.  Identity in Christ steadies the soul—if we’re not at stake, we can risk hard conversations. Expect resistance, recognize the patterns, and walk toward others with truth and love.

Resources for you!

• Peter Block – Flawless Consulting
  
• Roberta M. Gilbert – The Eight Concepts of Bowen Theory
• Tod Bolsinger – Tempered Resilience

John 1:11 – Jesus rejected by his own, grounding the experience of sabotage
Matthew 28:18–20 – the Great Commission as the church’s core calling
2 Corinthians 5:18–20 – ministry of reconciliation as the church’s identity
1 Corinthians 3:21–23 – identity secured in belonging to Christ
1 Peter 4:12–13 – suffering as participation in Christ
Acts 5:41 – rejoicing to suffer for Christ’s name
Luke 10:25–37 – Good Samaritan as costly, risky love in action
1 John 4:7–11 – God’s love empowering our love for others

Definitions:
Sabotage – emotional resistance arising when systems feel threatened by change
Projection – attributing one’s internal emotional distress to another person
Triangulation – redirecting tension between two people onto a third
Cutoff – emotional distancing or severing connection to avoid discomfort
Boundary Setting – defining personal limits without severing relationship
Togetherness Pressure – system-driven push to maintain sameness and avoid change
Differentiation – holding one’s val

Transcript

Framing Resistance In Church Systems

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast.

SPEAKER_05 0:06

I'm Matt. I'm Jeremy.

Sabotage As The System’s Immune Response

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Every anxious system eventually pushes back against change. In this episode of the Church Renewal Podcast, we return to three realities that shape every leadership transition: sabotage, cutoff, and what Edwin Friedman called the failure of imagination. You'll hear Jeremy and Matt walk straight into the emotional processes that surface when a leader begins to differentiate. Why systems resist, how sabotage functions as an emotional immune response, and how cutoff emerges when discomfort overwhelms growth. We also name a dynamic we haven't explored as deeply this season: the way anxiety shrinks imagination. When a system is afraid, it loses the ability to envision a hopeful future. It clings to stasis, to certainty, to whatever feels safe, and the gospel causes out of that constriction into a larger horizon shaped by grace. As we head to the close of this season, this episode serves as both a recap and an encouragement to see resistance for what it is. Stay grounded in Christ when systems push back and recover the non-anxious imagination that makes faithful leadership possible.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

This episode I've entitled When Systems Push Back. It seemed to me that this was an area that could use a little bit more explanation. So just so you know we're going in a church going through a difficult time, there is resistance. Resistance happens because systems don't like change.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:37

One of the primary ways that Friedman and Bowen looked at this is in terms of sabotage. Sabotage is, I think, a little bit of a distinct part of resistance. Right. Just off the cuff, how would you define sabotage?

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Peter Bloch, in his classic book, Flawless Consulting, has two phenomenal chapters that are worth the price of the$64 book. But he has two chapters on resistance. Most pastors don't think about themselves as uh consultants, right? But they are, in Bloch's formulation, they're an internal consultant to the church. And so Bloch talks about resistance happens because your presence as a change agent is a threat to the system. And systems have uh homeostasis, right? And systems are the same way. When you come and you push on them for change, they want to push back to what the stasis was. And that's a very understandable human response. And so when you come in to change something, the system uh has a stasis to it, and there's a great inertia to not move from that stasis. When you push on it, that is when you get resistance. The emotional response uh can be uh sabotage. So sabotage is someone who's in the system is having an emotional response to your actions to transform the system. And the way that they emotionally respond to that is they take action in a human body sort of metaphor. This is the white blood cells that are coming to attack an infection. You're viewed as an infection. The reaction is to come and to try and basically root it out.

SPEAKER_05 3:28

So that that's the next stop on this train, then, right? Because it's the response to change. Roberta Gilbert talks about this in um her book, The Eight Principles of Bowen Systems. The natural responses to discomfort like this, she lays out the three F's and an N. And we haven't talked about the N, but I think it's I think it's imperative to talk about in the context specifically of churches. She talks about the response is gonna be fight, freeze, or flee or nurture.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Yeah, the niceness is pulled out as a form of, you know, you really shouldn't go forward. That would be that would be rude. That's gonna hurt people if you do that. Yeah, it's an interesting form of sabotage.

SPEAKER_05 4:14

And this is what the well-differentiated leader needs to bear in mind.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Right.

Fight, Freeze, Flee, Or Nurture

SPEAKER_05 4:18

This is not personal, they're not rejecting you, your values, your purpose, your goals, your methodology, your means. Every person who engages in sabotage is an ambassador for the system coming and saying, we feel scared by this change. And as a result, we're either fighting, we're freezing, we're running away, or we're gonna try to be nice and make sure that everyone and this is a very important thing. Harmony is preserved, yes, nothing else changes.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Yep, yep, harmony is preserved.

SPEAKER_05 4:57

And when we say process again, just for clarity, we mean emotional process. There's something going on here where your identity and your acceptance, and my identity, and my acceptance, all of a sudden, it feels at stake. And we're we're reacting to that.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Feels feels like a threat to identity.

SPEAKER_05 5:19

So at its simplest here, resistance, sabotage, we'll use them interchangeably right now. They are a system's response to eject a well-differentiated leader.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:30

So I think about leaders bringing three things a leader brings values, a vision, and a leader brings a plan. All of those may pretend to change, right? But there's one other thing that the leader brings, which is hugely important here, and it's a connection. Good leadership necessarily serves as a bridge to bring people together who aren't necessarily already together.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Right.

SPEAKER_05 5:59

At the beginning here, I guess there's two points I want to make sure that we're really clear on. One, the resistance happens not because a person thinks that the outcome is going to be bad, but because the individual acting in the saboteur role is an ambassador for the system itself.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 6:18

Which is trying to maintain a lack of change. And as we look at higher level leadership, servant leadership, there's a recognition that there's a deep relationship connection.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 6:32

That the people and the relationships are the asset that you have as your greatest strength in any kind of organization. And one of the things that does necessarily change, especially in a transition, is the nature of those those relationships. So there's an implicit contract. As a counselor, I experience this often. As a pastor, I experienced this, I'm sure you have as well. Someone comes to me and says, Pastor Jarr, I want you to help me fix my marriage.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

Right.

SPEAKER_05 6:58

And I say, okay. And then they say under their breath, silently to themselves, and I'm going to work as hard as I can to keep you from being successful.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yes, absolutely. Or um, as long as it doesn't mean change for me. Well, that's if you can affect change in my spouse, that would be great, Pastor Chair. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 7:20

This is the nature of change, though.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:22

We we can see that a change is necessary. We can agree that that change, that a particular change would be good, right? But we don't want change itself. And leaders bring this dynamic into every situation that they're in. Either we're going to pursue God, we're going to follow the good shepherd, Christ, and we're going to come closer together as we're doing it, or we're going to try to maintain, I think Schizero calls it, a false harmony, where we preserve the relationship, but not in integrity.

Differentiation, Grief, And Not Taking It Personally

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Right, right. We would say that that person's adapted. They've felt the togetherness pressure. And instead of staying distinct and not responding to it, but staying connected. I mean, that's the point you were making about leaders being emotionally connected, is that differentiation permits connection in my way of talking about it, right? It enables you to get up to the line without feeling scared that I'm going to lose myself as I get closer to the line. Remember, listener, uh, all change is experiences loss. Loss puts people into grief and people respond to their grief in different ways. The reason that that's helpful when it comes to sabotage is it can help you as a leader when you're experiencing sabotage to maybe not take it as personally. It feels personal because you're the one leading and this is the person resisting. But if you can take a step back and realize this is grief. My leadership is has put this person in grief. Yes. And they're responding to their grief. That can help when you're being sabotaged. When you know a leader is going around and talking to other people, when they're um calling meetings and not inviting you, when they're trying to get people rallied against you, bringing decisions back up again that were thoughtfully made, been saying that they should be reconsidered. These are all forms of sabotage.

SPEAKER_05 9:24

You've seen that, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Yeah, yeah. I think it's interesting in this difficult situation that one of our transitional pastors is in right now, he's probably spent the most time with this difficult leader because he's really tried to stay in proud of him. He's tried to stay emotionally connected. And I think that when you come to a difficult leader and you go, Wow, this must be really hard for you. That completely changes the conversation. Because we're talking about a particular piece of content. The church has been like this. We're trying to make it more healthy, more biblical, and you're reacting to that because it feels like a threat to the system because it's change. And if you can be connected to people in that way and they recognize that you care about them, it's that doesn't solve all problems. They may still resist you, they may still try and sabotage, they may still make it difficult to bring about transformation. Um, but at least you know that you love them well.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

So we're talking about sabotage, and sabotage is what the system does within itself. The primary way that sabotage occurs is through what the literature calls projection. The older literature looks at projection in terms of an identified patient, the problem child. There's always an individual within the system that becomes the focus of the stress. And every time that we've talked about triangulation, this is the connection here. Anytime we're projecting, we're making an unhealthy triangle.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yes, to something else. Let's make it maybe make a real situation. So I'm a transitional pastor trying to bring change in the system, and Jair is a leader in the system who's vested in the way that things have been so far. If I'm bringing in change, and that feels like a threat to Jar, instead of Jar realizing that he's in emotional pain because he's experiencing this change, his loss, having the emotional maturity to go, I'm in grief. And when I'm in grief, I'm tempted to respond in an X and Y way, defining himself. Instead, what Jared does is he goes, Matt, you're the problem here and takes his problem that he's having and he projects it on me. In Christian circles, people do feel like they do have values that are being um violated undermined by your being a transformational agent. Yep. So they felt very principled. Sometimes when we're working with a church that needs renewal, what's happened is that the doctrine becomes the most important thing, that what we're here for is a certain set of doctrine.

SPEAKER_05 12:10

So that uh I have a So Jesus said they shall know you by your doctrine.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Sorry, no, that was very good. That was very good. Absolutely. They'll know you by uh your love, right? Um one of the things that happens with a confessional faith is that we can fall into the fact that the theology is the project and not a tool for the project. I have a blog post we can link in the show notes for this, and it's something that we run into pretty frequently, where um doctrine feels really safe to people. The Great Commission, uh, the call to befriend, pray for, spend time with, and seek to bring the gospel to unbelievers feels very unsafe, even if it's the call from Jesus. And the resistance we get back is no, we're here for a certain kind of theology. And that feels very safe to people. And so they resist. So what's ironic is that our churches that um have this deep, rich, detailed theology that it it it lodges um and and stays as though there's some um lack of conduit between the knowledge that we have and our hearts being moved by it.

SPEAKER_05 13:24

Back when I was going through seminary and I had a course on small group leadership or something, there were roles within the group that were named. Okay. Looking at small group dynamics. I've done something similar here. I've named some of the roles that sabotage in this way, projection, triangulation, takes. So I'm gonna name these off to you. Okay, and I don't want to see if you recognize them, and if you can just from their name, tell me what what your experience is. Because I my purpose here is I want to give our listeners I don't know, a legend, a code to look at and say, hey, what am I seeing here? Is this what I'm seeing? Is this happening? What am I likely to see? So let me see if I can pull this up here. We have the fan, the expert, the investor, the docent, the observer, the interpreter resorter. So when I say the fan, does that carry water for you?

Projection, Triangles, And Doctrine As Refuge

SPEAKER_01 14:17

A fan uh is an ally who's with you that can help you bring about transformation. Absolutely. However, sometimes this is somebody who's trying to get close to you to manipulate you and try and get on the inside to try and slow down or change something. But really, it's just a way not to have a blow-up fight, but to sort of manipulate from inside.

SPEAKER_05 14:42

Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 14:46

That's projection that is being unwilling to deal with the discomfort of a potential change and address it openly as my discomfort with us.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 14:54

On the merits, and say, hey, it's possible that we could have a legitimate disagreement. And that may be okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yep, yep. But instead, I'm going to hijack the relationship desire and use it as a tool of manipulation. Yeah. Okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 15:11

Watch for that one.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Okay, so uh the expert. It's it's interesting. This happens in two different ways. Sometimes people will lean on me as the expert so that I serve as the lightning rod in a situation. And sometimes that's not bad. If you're the circuit breaker and you're the outside voice that can help move the system, that can be okay. On the other hand, say you're a transitional pastor and you're trying to work with a group of leaders, and one of them exerts themselves as the expert. It's a trump card in the sense that it's a way of exerting knowledge or supposedly superior insight to prevent change from happening. Many times in churches, I think this violates a core principle. It might not be a biblical thing, but it's something that's developed in the system, a golden calf of sort.

SPEAKER_05 15:57

So when Friedman and Bowen both talk about societal aggression, one of the things that they look at is that there is a usurpation of authority through self-proclaimed experts that then try to exert influence unrighteously, not their word, my word, um, but exert influence in a way that is not commensurate with what they're actually saying.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 16:23

The fact that I'm an expert on Jeremy's life does not mean I'm an expert on maths. Right. But it's not just an individual, it's a self-proclaimed expert. You can have other people come to you on behalf of the expert, which is a different form of triangulation.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Right, yeah. It's an influence campaign. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:42

Well, I mean, I will so long as Fred goes along.

unknown 16:45

Right.

SPEAKER_05 16:45

Because Fred really understands this. This is his bailiwick.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Recognize that appeal to external authority is a way to avoid change in a system.

SPEAKER_05 16:53

Especially when there's an anointing.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:56

It sanctifies the expert.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

All right. And so we've looked at the fan, the expert, the investor. And I'm guessing what you're thinking here is uh is the person in the church that says, Well, you know, if you make that change, I'm a big giver to this church, and I don't think we'd be able to give to that any longer. That is a uh not so subtle form of togetherness pressure that's coming, you know, trying to basically say, are you going to keep to your goals and values? Are you going to remain distinct, trusting in the Lord that He will provide, or are you going to adapt to this person? You're now in a tussle between what you believe the Lord has led you to as a wise decision, and someone in your church who's trying to hold you hostage with their money. Um, and that's their form of sabotage.

SPEAKER_05 17:50

And to be clear, it can be their money, time, their backing, their gifting, their influence, service. Absolutely. Yep, yep. Any of these things. And again, the reason that I sketched these out was these are things I have seen. I'm simply trying to give it a simple name, a simple label, so that as our listeners are doing their work, they can say, Oh, here's a category. This is just a bucket. Does this fall into one of these buckets?

Spotting Saboteur Roles In Congregations

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah. And unfortunately, you should expect these. Todd Bolsinger's Tempered Resilience, which is an excellent, excellent book that our listeners should pick up and make use of. There's a really neat illustration. He tells a story in there of him pastoring a church in Los Angeles and embarking on a very big campaign to raise money for some work on the buildings, and he really needed the financial backing of somebody whose family had given to the original building of the buildings, and he did not get that from that person. And yet they trusted the Lord and went forward. I think that we've got to be very careful when people are coming to us and trying to influence us, and they're they're holding their time, their talent, their treasure, their influence back as a way of trying to influence us in a certain direction. Just have to be careful. Absolutely. So the docents. So a docent is somebody that leads you around a museum, right?

SPEAKER_05 19:12

That's correct. They're going to introduce you to the things that are important. They're going to give definition, scope, context to all the things.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah, so this is the person that reminds you of the history of the church and why what you're trying to lead towards violates the core principles of the church is always. They might have been unbiblical, but they have been what is. And they're reminding you here's the stasis, don't touch it.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

And remember, every system is perfectly designed to get the outcomes that it's currently getting.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:44

Shifting that is what is in danger here. This may be the person who, when you first come in, they'll introduce you to the people that you really need to know.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

When you're a transitional pastor, it's the first five people that want to have lunch with you. They're trying to get inside and begin the influence campaign.

SPEAKER_05 20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

So the next one that we want to think about here is the observer. This is the person who keeps their distance. There's the line that separates uh two people. The observer is the person who, because of the threat of change, is having a hard time getting up to the line. They're keeping their emotional distance as a way of keeping the system from changing.

SPEAKER_05 20:25

And this is a form of sabotage. This is what we think of classically as resistance.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:29

This is potentially weaponized incompetence. It's dragging your feet.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

It's the person that's hard to convince that change is a good thing.

SPEAKER_05 20:39

And with each of these, there's a way that the leader can and should respond.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

So next we've got here the reporter or interpreter. This is the person who's gone out and gathered everyone's opinions and they're reporting them back. And the opinions are we shouldn't make this change. But it's not their opinion. Of course. I've been hearing. And sometimes there are names, and sometimes it's just that person and the discomfort that they're feeling they're locating outside of themselves because they feel embarrassed that they feel uncomfortable or whatever. The next one uh is the peacemaker. So tell me how have you seen that one?

SPEAKER_05 21:22

We talked about some with nurturing here.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Right.

SPEAKER_05 21:24

This is the person who is gonna come and just let you know that some ones are unhappy, that someone was offended. And to be fair, it's right for someone to come and say, Hey, I think we've gone too fast, and as a result, this has affected this person, I believe, in a way that you may not be aware of. And I think it'd be worth your time to seek them out and see how they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

And if you want, consideration, love. I think it's Heifetz and Linsky that say that leadership is disappointing people at a pace they can endure. Right. A client that we had where a new pastor came in and tried to change a whole bunch of things right off the bat, and he lasted about 18 months. Not because his ideas were bad. In fact, I think they were actually pretty good ideas. He was trying to make changes at a pace that people could not endure, and so they they ejected him.

SPEAKER_05 22:16

And that's a key factor right there is could not endure.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:21

The work of the spirit is one of causing us to be able to stand up under the pressure, which is what endurance means. I think it's Creech that talks about the role of the pastor, is first to know who he is, his identity in Christ, then to be a proclaimer of God's word, and then to protect the natural world, but the people and the things. And this falls into we're not supposed to endure things that are out of step with how God created the world to be.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Right.

SPEAKER_05 22:50

Right. But it is very normal to look at someone out of a sense of compassion and say, because this is causing them to suffer, we ought not be doing this. Which works theoretically until you look at someone who has a broken arm and has to have that bone reset. Sometimes what is necessary is in fact uncomfortable, and it is endurable, even though it is extremely unpleasant.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Right, right. Um, it's why would we expect something different? It's what Jesus experienced. So the opposition. So this is the fight. This is the person who's right in your face arguing. This isn't the freeze, the flea, the nurture.

SPEAKER_05 23:36

And this is this is one that is the most prone to immediately turn into cutoff one way or another.

Boundaries, Cutoff, And Endurance

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Or the leader adaptive, right? Because they don't like uh the pain this person's putting them in. Is if you don't do this, I'm gonna leave. Um, I'm gonna cut you off as a form of fighting or as an intimidation tactic to get the person to stop. And I think that this is one where it's it's hard to realize there's more going on than the content that's being discussed. And if you can recognize that and just be able to go and say, this must be really difficult for you. Um, I think I've told this story on the podcast before. My mother was a professional mediator for 20 years in the county that I grew up in. And so um, my mom would sit at the table with people in you know, really difficult situations. And she taught me that the most powerful question uh that one human can ask of another human is help me understand. It's a way of connecting. When someone is fighting, we can ask, you know, help me understand what you're really concerned about or what you're feeling, or what's difficult about this for you.

SPEAKER_05 24:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

And that that can be a way to not give in, but to stay connected, to stay up to the line, even with somebody who's swinging at you. Right. Even when it's hard, which it is, it's hard when somebody's fighting you.

SPEAKER_05 25:03

So for the person who's in this, one of the things that we need to remember is this is what John meant in John 11 when he said Jesus came to his own, but his own did not receive him.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:18

When we're dealing with sabotage, projection, triangulation, the way to stay present in that is one to maintain the awareness of who you are in Christ.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 25:29

This is not even fundamentally about your relationship with the people in the congregation. It's fundamentally about their relationship with Christ.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:38

Whether or not they're going to lean on him, whether or not they trust him, whether or not they're going to listen to him, to try to hear his voice. Your role in this is to make sure you're hearing and speaking faithfully and giving room for them to respond to him. But that requires A being aware of what sabotage may look like, right, but B the resilience to stand there in the midst of it and say this isn't about me.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah. Or yeah, to not take it personally. Um, because the temptation for me is take it personally. Sure. Completely normal. As though I were at stake, which I couldn't possibly be. We learn in 1 Corinthians 3, because I am Christ and Christ is God. And so in Christ I have all things already. And so I couldn't possibly be at stake.

SPEAKER_05 26:31

Couldn't possibly be at stake. So the strategy is you can name the things you're seeing, being able to identify and label these things, just staying present in the situation, staying calm, looking to Christ, and then leaning into it.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Walking towards it. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 26:49

Well that's that's how you deal with that. And so let's talk about cutoff then. When you get to the end of uh the resistance, it's going to either result in collapse and letting go of your values and accommodating or adapting.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Adapting. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 27:09

Or there's going to be reconciliation and relationship growth. People come together, yep. Or there's going to be cutoff. And you were talking about that particular situation that you're dealing with currently. And I guess I want to ask two questions. One is can would you define for us the difference between boundary setting and cutoff? Sure. So we I can understand them. And two, would you define for us what cutoff looks like within a family and how that's distinct from what it looks like within a congregation?

SPEAKER_01 27:45

If you're in a difficult relationship with somebody, many times um someone is in fight mode. But recognize that when that's happening and people are trying to get you to abandon your goals and values, boundary setting, then in that case, would be to gently give them a swift shove in the chest and tell them, get back across the line. We can talk about something, but it's inappropriate for you to apply that togetherness pressure to me. Oh, let's just take the money person as an example. Well, you know what? If you make this decision, I might have to withhold my givings. I'm not sure that I can support that. And I think the boundary setting would be to say, well, if that's what you think you need to do to honor the Lord, then I I guess that's what you'll need to do. Not responding to it. It's basically putting them back in the Lord's hands. If someone's fighting with you, what would a boundary setting look like in that place? You can just say, hey, I'm very happy to talk about this decision, but I need you to calm down first. So let's take a break and let's come back to it and let's let's talk about this in a sane way. So you're trying to find gentle ways to push people back onto their side of the line and not unduly exert that that togetherness pressure. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 29:06

Yeah, and I would I would add to that only because it helps me think through it, is uh again, defining myself versus defining you. I I if you're trying to define me, I have to set that boundary and say I I hear you, and you might even be right about that, but I'm not saying that about myself. You're saying that about me, and I have to say, no, that's that's not the case.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah, so to go back to an illustration um from earlier and apply it here, you know. So if we're in a church and their theology has been very important to them and we're trying to push them towards thinking about going out into the community related to the Great Commission, and them thinking that that we're violating that that value of being a doctrinal church, many times what's being insinuated is you're not being faithful.

SPEAKER_05 29:53

Yeah.

Martyr Complex And The Call To Reconcile

SPEAKER_01 29:53

And I think that one of the ways that we sort of gently push people back across the line is to say, actually, I'm trying to be fully biblical. Biblical. That's an I think an imaginative way just to help people see and respond to that sort of accusation and just say, well, let's go back and look at the Bible. Right. That may be more important to you than it is to Jesus. And that's meant to be a swift shove in the chest to get back across the line. How does that differ from cutoff? Cut off is more what happened in that church in West Seattle, where we came up to the line, we engaged people, we started to stay close to them. I went to people's homes and opened Bibles on the kitchen tables. And what they elected to do was they left. They walked away from the line and they stayed away. And it's painful when people do that. There's caveat here. If what you're experiencing in a relationship is abusive, it is appropriate to get the distance that you need in order to not be injured any longer.

SPEAKER_05 30:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

And for elders and churches to help people to be safe. In circumstances where it's not abusive, uh where it's just difficult, one of the responses is to cut off. It is understandable for people who most want comfort to cut off because it's uncomfortable to stay at the line where I still need to be sanctified and where I need to forbear with this person who's also still being sanctified. So we pick something that we think will be more comfortable and less painful. And we we walk away. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:37

So in families, this this can look like divorce, moving away geographically from your family of origin. Yep. This can look like sending a text to your family and saying, hey, don't contact me.

SPEAKER_04 31:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 31:50

I'm not talking to mom or dad anymore. Just want to let you know I'm happy to keep on talking with you, but they're out. Right. Within the church, it looks a little bit different. I mean, you've seen many of these things, but the things I think of right off the bat are, A, you have people leaving. You have people who are estranged but stay in the congregation. They're socially cut off, if you will. You have leaders who are ousted. You have leaders who take their chips and and go elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Right.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

Are there other forms of cutoff within the congregation that you've seen?

SPEAKER_01 32:30

I I'm intrigued, maybe I'll just add a nuance. I'm intrigued by the person who stays within the congregation, but they've chosen to cut themselves off from pastors and leadership, but they've stayed for some other reason. Um sometimes they have other relationships that they value in there. Sometimes they're biding their time until there's an opportunity to manipulate again. Pat Langioni talks about how in Five of Songs 17, he talks about how a person who's been heard, respected, and their viewpoint has been understood, but not necessarily agreed with. That if a reasonable person, if they've been heard out, they can live with not getting their way. Unfortunately, I have discovered that not all leaders in churches are reasonable. They feel so principled about themselves, whether it's the communion thing or it's engaging the Great Commission instead of just just having the right doctrine, they're they're genuinely unreasonable. And that is that is difficult. The way this happens sometimes is, well, I'm just gonna resign then. And what I recommend to people is as soon as somebody says that they're gonna resign to say, Well, that's what you think you should do, then she probably should do it. That's a way of actually shoving someone back across the line. They've stepped way over the line into your space and they're trying to manipulate you by threatening cutoff. And I think you just have to let them go forward with their threat. If they're willing to try and emotionally manipulate in that way, you really don't want them in your leadership anyhow.

SPEAKER_05 34:08

How do you see um a martyr complex playing into this? As you were talking about the person who stays, who's principled.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

That made me think of I'm the last one standing, Jair. You know that I'm I'm holding on to the truth as it was. You know, if we don't sing all hymns that were composed before 1800, we're unfaithful to the Lord. You know that, right? I have heard that you know, I'm the last faithful one.

SPEAKER_05 34:43

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:44

Meanwhile, God says, no, I've got 10,000. Identity. There's a there's a sense in which you said you're intrigued by this. Uh at the end of the day, I have to ask myself the questions that you're asking. What am I waiting for? And for me, that is a continuous going back to the Lord and saying, Lord, what are you doing and what are you calling me to do?

SPEAKER_01 35:06

And that is always the question to be asking.

SPEAKER_05 35:09

That is always the question to be asking.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Always.

From Safety To Mission: Great Commission Focus

SPEAKER_05 35:12

And that's where I that immediately makes me think of the murder syndrome. I'm woe is me. Look at all the suffering I'm enduring. Well, I am looking. You're holding the end of the whip.

unknown 35:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:30

You laid all those rakes on the ground before you started walking through. You tied the blindfold on. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Uh okay, so and and recognize that um you're causing me pain. Is that is that form of projection? It's defining someone else. Yeah, it's not taking responsibility for self.

SPEAKER_05 35:51

And I think it goes a step further, potentially, to say, because of my identity in God, because I have, as you said, made something more important to me than maybe important to Jesus. This suffering now validates my identity and is the foundation for my understanding of my acceptance. Look at how righteous I'm being. God is going to accept me because I have poured all these things. I've screamed into the void, I've spoken truth to power, I've been a resistor. And that I don't want to disparage where that has happened properly, because there is a place right now.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Sure, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 36:32

But the problem with cutoff is that it doesn't resolve the problem. And fundamentally, we are called to a ministry of reconciliation where relationships are restored.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Right.

SPEAKER_05 36:43

When cutoff happens, the problem leaves the room, but the issue remains.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Right.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

Because this is a systemic issue, this is the system saying we don't like this, and the way that it is manifesting, and because you wouldn't adapt to what our wish is as the system.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yep, we're gonna eject you or we're gonna remove ourselves.

SPEAKER_05 37:05

And we're gonna say, Isn't this nice? The problem's gone away, but the problem hasn't gone away. The person's gone away.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Right.

SPEAKER_05 37:11

Problems remain behind.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yeah. And we're called to that. Jared has alluded to this, but you know, in 2 Corinthians 5, we're ambassadors of Christ, we're ministers of reconciliation. And so the ideal is there will be no broken relationships in the new heavens and new earth. And we're meant in Christ now, by the power of the Spirit, grateful for grace, uh united in Christ to exhibit a foretaste of those united relationships in the body of Christ now. Um, but cutoff where there's just pain, it's just a difficult relationship. You have to forbear and forgive and be willing to be humble and uh admit that maybe not everybody sees it exactly as you do because we're different people. That cutoff is not the answer um to the problem.

SPEAKER_05 37:58

And again, because this is about relationship, the response is through pursuit.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yes, it's go towards the person. It feels threatening to be called to live sacrificially and to um walk into a space where you might not have all the time.

SPEAKER_05 38:12

It is threatening. Yeah, it is threatening to walk in that kind of relationship in the same way that it's threatening when you're in a church and you have this kind of projection, sabotage, triangulation going on. It is threatening to walk up to someone, to approach someone, to pursue them and say, Hey, how are you doing? Because it requires you to be open to the the possibility that they're gonna they're gonna go nuclear on you.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Right, they're gonna reject you, they're gonna reject you. You're gonna fail and so on.

SPEAKER_05 38:45

So what are you talking about? I'm I'm fine. Whatever, whatever the response might be, all that this does is it gives the opportunity for relationship to take place. For instead of there being an emotional reactive chain of events, right, there's an intentional pursuit and reconciling of relationships to the obedience of Christ that is always threatening. And that's within the church. You then take that outside the church to a world that is hostile towards God, that calls evil good, that views we who hold to that as bigots, bigots, zealots, hateful, absolutely, and we're supposed to walk up to them and say, Hey, I just I want to give opportunity here for us to have a relationship. And they say, Cool, I have steel knuckles here.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Right and let's relate.

SPEAKER_05 39:36

And yes, it's dangerous.

Restoring Imagination And Gospel Hope

SPEAKER_01 39:38

It it is, and yet when you look in the book of Acts and you see the disciples in prison having been beaten, they're singing for the privilege of suffering for the sake of Christ because he's worth it. Yep. And our job as leaders is to proclaim Christ, to show the sweetness of Christ, to show the heart of Christ. One of the things I love about 1 John, I I think John really is trying to, over in chapter four, he's really trying to help people understand the gospel in such a profound and deep way that they go, I am loved by God, and that is crazy talk. Which means if I'm loved by God and I'm a difficult person, then loving you is not such a big deal because I have this reservoir of love because I've been loved. Packer used to say that if somebody actually really understands the gospel, they can't but share it with people because they're experiencing good news. And if we can help people be animated by Christ and by his gospel, maybe we can pry their fingers off the things that they've been trying to get an identity out of.

SPEAKER_05 40:50

And that is hard. Especially in a context where you do a lot of your work, where, like you said, there is a comfort in knowing that I have the right facts.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Yep. That's interesting. It's very comfortable to feel right.

SPEAKER_05 41:09

It is.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

And it is a lot less comfortable to go out and do something with that.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 41:16

And the purpose that Jesus had and the mandate that he left us with was as you are going, make disciples. Yep. Not as you are going, read more books from dead Puritans. Though they might help you in your go. They probably will. Undoubtedly will.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Right, but it's but it's not what he said. It's not what he said. No. It's intensely relational, it's intensely out there with people that don't know Jesus. Right.

SPEAKER_05 41:43

You're gonna be ridiculed for for mixing with.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Right.

SPEAKER_05 41:46

You're gonna be misunderstood. You're gonna be misunderstood.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

You're gonna um see people on the side of the road hurting, and you're gonna help them like the good Samaritan.

SPEAKER_05 41:54

And they're gonna abuse your kindness.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yep. And yet it's what happened to Christ. It's it's entirely worth it. Um I'm reminded we probably have linked to this in previous episodes, but if we uh we'll we'll link to it with this one. Um, sometimes when I talk about this stuff with people, they're just like, this just doesn't feel like Jesus, you know, because they they think of Jesus as um, you know, Jesus sweet and mild, right, uh humble and lowly. But when you look at Jesus, the leader, and we follow Jesus, we are his emissaries, because we are all in need of sanctification, it is always for us as individuals that change is on the table because we are not yet conformed to Christ. Why would it surprise us at all that change is what's on the table for a congregation?

SPEAKER_05 42:44

But this goes back to that contract that we have. Please help us, and I'm gonna do everything I can to stop you.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

And as long as it doesn't mean change for me.

SPEAKER_05 42:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Right.

SPEAKER_05 42:53

Yeah. So this is where the word afford that you love to use, yes, is is hugely necessary.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:01

Because regardless of what your denomination is, the Great Commission is what our goal is. Yes. That's what our marching orders are.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Everyone's mission is the same.

SPEAKER_05 43:11

In the same way that relationship is what we've been called to within the church, a a ministry of reconciliation outside of the church, between God and a heathen world, is what we've been called to through the Great Commission. All that this does is afford us to go and be able to be obedient. It does not guarantee any of the results.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Correct. Just makes it possible for us to go do it, right? It gives us sufficient motivation and resources by the Spirit as we're connected to Christ vitally that enables this. So if we have that gratitude for grace for the gospel that we've received, for the gospel benefits received because of Christ, then with a stable sense of self in Christ, we can go out and we can bring the gospel to people because we're not at risk. We can afford to differentiate, to go to people with our own goals and values, but connected to them in a relationship of love enough to say, here's the gospel. It's the summons from the creator to repent and believe this is good news that Christ came for you. Won't you come to him? If we don't have that stable sense of self in Christ, we can't go outside of the walls. And even with inside of the walls, we're going to end up as these protective people that are frightened or fighting with each other, right? Or we're frozen because it feels risky, or we just have to be nice.

Preparing Leaders For Pushback And Closing

SPEAKER_05 44:40

As Friedman talked about imagination, what he's basically talking about is the ability to envision a better future. Change can bring about something good. It's not always going to be bad, it's not always going to be this way. And in the context of a church where we've been talking about, what this fundamentally comes down to is do we have our hope founded in the gospel? Is our sight set on eternity? Where, regardless of what happens here in this life, we know the end of the story. Right. We know where our place is. It's been secured. Christ has secured my identity, he's secured my acceptance, he's promised me a future that is glorious, and he's the one who's going to do it.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

And it's imagination gets my eyes off my present discomfort.

SPEAKER_05 45:29

And anxiety, the way you've described it, anxiety is a fear about a potential future. Right. So, as a church leader walking through this, the response then must be, well, we need to talk about the future then.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

And imagine it. How great would it be? How great would it be if there were more people here who just come to Christ and we got to teach them our good doctrine? So that would, it's an imaginative way to deal with that person who's concerned about it.

SPEAKER_05 45:56

So uh this is this episode has served as sort of uh a wrap-up, a recap, a unpacking of further things specifically for the context of the pastor in ministry where they're experiencing this kind of pushback because systems will push back. Yep, you must expect it, you must look for it because if you're not looking for it, when it does overtake you, you're going to think that you're doing something wrong. You're gonna start saying, What's what in the world is going on here? But because it happens so naturally, if you're looking for it, you can prepare your mind for it. And even your process for walking through, how are you gonna respond to people when they're triangulating, when they're projecting? How are you going to go to someone when they are seeking to cut off or to cut you off? Where's your hope gonna be? And how are you going to look to the promise of the gospel in order to stand firm in the present? Certainly there is more that we can unpack here, but we thought it was important to go over these topics now before the end of the season. Uh, we've got, I believe, two episodes left before the end of the season. So I just want to say a quick thank you to all of you who have come along. We'd love to hear your impressions, um, your thoughts, how this has helped you. Please reach out to us at your convenience and let us know. And we'll talk to you next week. So long.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching. Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them. We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that this day dawned. Jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it. When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy. If you have questions or a need, we'd love to hear from you. For more information, go to our website, flourishcoaching.org, or send an email to info at flourishcoaching.org. You can also connect with us on Facebook, X, and YouTube. We appreciate when you like, subscribe, rate, or review our show whenever you're listening. It can be hard for churches to ask for help, so when our clients tell us who referred them, we'll send a small gift to say thanks. A huge thank you to all our guests for making the time to share their stories with us. We are really blessed to have all these friends and partners. All music for this show has been licensed and was composed and created by artists. The Church Renewal Podcast was directed and produced by Jeremy Sefferati in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you. Bye for now.