Shift by Alberta Innovates
Shift by Alberta Innovates
Unveiling the power of culture: a conversation with Dr. Marcus Collins
Join us for an insightful exploration into the profound influence of culture on human behavior, featuring the brilliant Dr. Marcus Collins, a professor at the University of Michigan and esteemed author of "For the Culture."
Discover how cultural artifacts act as mirrors to our internal beliefs and dictate how we interact with the world. Together with Dr. Collins, we unpack the concept of legitimation, where communities decide what deviations from norms are acceptable, and why understanding goes far beyond mere data when it comes to truly connecting with people. We challenge the reliance on demographics, highlighting the risks of stereotyping based on surface-level traits.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as we delve into the role media and subcultures play in shaping our perceptions, with sneakerheads serving as a prime example of trendsetting fueled by authentic passion. We navigate the intricate dance of public discourse in revealing truth in an era of disinformation and acknowledge the growing acceptance of mental health discussions. Reflecting on a life devoted to service through writing and teaching, the episode underscores the incredible power of cultural exchange and personal stories in shaping how we see the world. Don't miss this enlightening discussion that reveals culture's pervasive impact on every aspect of our lives.
Shift by Alberta Innovates focuses on the people, businesses and organizations that are contributing to Alberta's strong tech ecosystem.
Author Dr Marcus Collins tells us culture is the most powerful force shaping human behavior, and we were fortunate to have Marcus join us hot on the heels of his keynote at InVentures May 2024. The following is an interview we had a chance to do with him. He's a professor at the University of Michigan and former ad executive. In our talk he shares some insights from his best-selling book For the Culture.
Jon:So sit back, settle in Welcome to Shift.
Jon:Marcus, thank you very much for joining us today. Your keynote had some great insights into how culture impacts us all. One of the things you mentioned that I found particularly compelling was your comment that artifacts are an outward manifestation of an inward belief. Can I get you to expand on that a little bit?
Marcus:Sure. The idea is that, because of who we are, we see the world a certain way. Because of the way we see the world, we therefore navigate the world accordingly. We have a shared way of life, the artifacts that are normal for people like us, the behaviors that are expected of people like us in the language that we use and we adopt these artifacts not because of what they are. We adopt these behaviors not because of what they are. We adopt these behaviors not because of what they are.
Marcus:We use these language not because of what they are, but what's expected of people like us, that is, you know, the clothes that we wear become outward expressions that we are a part of this community. The way that we talk, our lexicon, our dialect, our slang, our colloquialisms, they're all byproducts of our subscription into this community. We do the things that we do and our behaviors as a way to signify our cultural subscription. So the things that we adopt, they are arbitrary, right, they don't have meaning intrinsically inherent to them, but we do them because of the meaning that our cultural subscription assigns to them.
Jon:I see. So now what happens if there's someone within that cultural group that deviates from those expectations?
Marcus:So two things happen. One people look and go what are you doing? Right? It becomes a misogynist shock to the system, at which point we collectively decide is it acceptable? I mean, this is how change happens. Someone's willing to look silly for just a moment. And then we collectively, as as a community, decide is it acceptable? We negotiate and construct whether or not it's okay, and this process of doing so is called legitimation, the social process by which we decide what behaviors, what artifacts, what ideas, what language is acceptable for people like us. And when someone does it, we either go oh, that's really interesting, that's kind of cool, then we're going to do it too. Or we go that's super whack, don't do it again. And if they do it again, they are now subject to the social consequences of deviating from what people like us do.
Jon:Okay. So now, when you say people like us, you're referring to that group that, whatever that person belongs to.
Marcus:That's right, because culture moves forward on the basis of one simple question Do people like me do something like this? The answer is yes, we do it. The answer is no, we don't. We make the decision hundreds, if not thousands, of times a day, whether we are aware of it or not. Right, all the things that we sort of we take up and adopt. They're really just byproducts of what people like us do.
Jon:Okay, so you've also mentioned this thing about intimacy. I nformation not being intimate. Can you build on that a bit?
Marcus:So say, we just met or we haven't met yet and we have a meeting coming up, I might jump on LinkedIn to see what school you went to, where you're from, where you work, maybe who you know, and that's a lot of information to have on you, especially if we ever met before. I don't know you until we've talked. I don't know you until we engage. I don't know you until you have revealed who you are and how you see the world. So information may be in abundance, but it is not analogous to the proximity that comes from intimacy. Intimacy requires us engaging and once we do engage, I go oh, I get what John's about.
Jon:Okay, so now from your perspective, in marketing and the ad world and strategy and all of that, it's the intimacy component that's critical for you to determine how to move forward with a campaign.
Marcus:Oh yes, I mean, we have tons of information about what people watch, how long they've watched it, what they've clicked on, what they've downloaded, and those things are helpful for us, but we don't know why they've done those things. We may assume, we may assign what we think, but if we don't understand how they see the world, then our estimation will always be wrong, because what may seem apparent for us may not be for those people and the way they make meaning ultimately decides, ultimately determines what they choose to adopt and what they choose to do.
Jon:Okay. So without that intimacy, information is just speculative then. So you're creating a construct then, without. That's not correct. Exactly Well said, okay. So now, when you think about communications and you want really anything, uh, where you go, what are your, what's your demographic, what's your audience? Flesh that out a little bit for me how, uh, that may not be the most accurate way of moving forward.
Marcus:So demographics don't actually describe who we are. They're easy, they're easily attainable because we can observe it, right, but they don't really tell us who we are. For instance, I'm 45 years old, I'm from Detroit, went to public schools my entire life and I'm black. If a marketer saw that on a brief they'd go oh, he must hang out with those people, buy those things, listen to that kind of music, eat that kind of food, because that's what people like them do and that sounds racist, af for me to say out loud yeah, but that's what we do with demographics. And while I am 45, I am black, I am from detroit. They go to public schools my entire life. I also grew up playing jazz as a kid and I swam competitively from six years old all the way through high school, and I grew up loving the monkeys as much as I love tribe called quest, and I was an engineer undergrad. These things shaped the way I see the world and therefore I navigate the world accordingly. The melanin in my skin does not reflect how I see the world. The experiences may shape it, but just because I'm black doesn't mean that I believe these things. So therefore, using these blunt instruments we call demographics they are fluid and they are easily observed, but they aren't real.
Marcus:So, savvy marketers, go. Well, let's focus on psychographics. Those are better than demographics, and they are Instead of age, race, gender, household income. We look at what people's attitudes are, we look at what they value, what they do, what their interests are, and I go yes, that's a far better descriptor of people than demographics.
Marcus:But what do you think informs or influence what you like? What do you think? Why do you think you like what you like? Go where you go, do what you do, eat what you eat. That's culture, which means to me the logic there. Therefore, ergo, culture becomes the best way to describe people if for no other reason than the fact that we self-identify by our cultural subscription. No one looks in the mirror and say I'm a digitally savvy Gen Z. No one does that right. No people say I'm a Collins or I'm a Christian, or I'm a sneakerhead, or I'm a runner or I'm a cosplayer if that's your thing, if that's your thing. We use these monikers to help us carve out the place that we occupy in the world and we behave accordingly in an effort to maintain good standing citizenship within our communities.
Jon:You just mentioned a number of different things that define the individual when you look in the mirror. Would that be the notion of the multi-hyphenate? That's right, so you're a runner, hyphen, communicator, hyphen, musician, hyphen et cetera.
Marcus:You're all these different things. When I'm with these people, I act accordingly, and that's kind of the interesting part, that not only are we byproducts of our collectives, but we also know how to act when we're in different places. For instance, I grew up listening to Eddie Murphy, watching Eddie Murphy movies the standup it's great, um, at far too young of an age, by the way, and I feel totally licensed to tell Eddie Murphy jokes at the bar with my friends, but I would never tell those jokes in the sanctuary with the exact same friends. Why? Because our environments have cultural expectations as well and therefore we engage in them accordingly.
Jon:So that's powerful, because I think a lot of people will say well, I'm an individual and I'm that person I meet whatever audience I'm in front of, and that I think there's a notion we can dispel.
Marcus:I think that, like this kind of leads into the idea of authenticity. You know authenticity as a one scholar, David Brown, Jerry, talks about. It's about transcending context, that no matter where I am, I am me. And the idea is that it's true no matter where I am, I am me, but I am not monolithic, that I am a reflection, or rather an alchemy of all these different identity markers I use to carve out the place that I occupy in the social world and therefore I behave according when I'm in these places.
Jon:I love that. I'm an alchemy. Now I just want to step back and I think we addressed this. But I just want to confirm, when we talked about the mean, the median, the mode, that we've got the norm that's right in the middle, and when we've got the outliers that left and right, you define that as subculture. So now flush that a little bit. That's kind of where we said you're with your group of.
Marcus:Yeah, so think of this. So the population there is a normal curve, what is normal in a particular context, right? So let's just say, among the population of the United States, when it comes to sneakers, the normal curve looks like this right, and the people in the middle they wear the sneakers that people consider to be acceptable. Right, people consider to be acceptable. Right, they're typically mediocre, they're typically right across the middle average, and there's people on the far side of that. Those are the sneakerheads, and their sneakers are far more exploratory, they're far more outside of what is considered normal, and what happens is that they rock those sneakers first and then they begin to penetrate to the population to become normal.
Marcus:I remember when Kanye West's sneakers, yeezys, first came out with Adidas, when I first saw them, I was like these shoes are hideous. They're like moth shoes. Why would anyone wear this? Five years later, I own four pair, right, and that's the idea that the more I saw people wearing them, the more legitimated it became and the more I was like, oh, actually, kind of cool.
Marcus:The media, the literature, refers to this as as the mere exposure effect, that the more we see a thing, the more we tend to prefer it, and the idea is that the more people do a thing, the more we go oh, it's kind of cool, not that weird, it's actually kind of funny. And then before long, we adopt the behavior. So everything that is normal now, that is normal or popular culture, all started subculturally. And what happens in the subculture is that they see that everyone's starting to wear a particular sneaker, they go we're not wearing that anymore, we're going to try something else. And that's how we get this cycle of change always happening.
Marcus:That once was subcultural. When it becomes populous or popular culture, the subculture goes find something different. And here's the beautiful part that there is a normal curve within the subculture. How subcultural are you? Are you on the fringe of that subculture? Are you right in the middle of that subculture? And then within that, within that normal curve, is another normal curve and it gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller, because we are social animals. So as much as we want to be different, we want to stand out we also want to fit in with people like ourselves. We're wired for that.
Jon:I love this, so talk to me a little bit about the network effect and how that goes.
Marcus:Yes, yeah, so the network effect, this idea that something starts small and it begins to connect with other people, disparate people, in such a way that we go from a small thing to scale. And I like to think of it sort of like a forest fire. We talk about the science of forest fires, essentially this we think that a big sort of flame happened in the entire forest, called fire. That's not how most forest fires works. They mostly work because the conditions were perfect there was debris on the ground, the wind was blowing, the air was dry, the trees were close together and when the conditions are perfect, the smallest spark could set the forest aflame. And that's how network effects happen that the conditions are just perfect and the smallest idea could begin to propagate among a group of people to go from a small niche thing to a mass adoption.
Jon:Okay. So when we think back to your previous example pardon me of sneakerheads, well, that subculture picks up, it generates excitement, and then the general population picks it up, and that's the network and it happens not because of advertising and marketing communications.
Marcus:It happens because of us, we, the media people. We observe people like ourselves and we go. Hmm, that's interesting and it's important for idea generators, marketers, companies, institutions alike, because there is no external force more influential to behavior than culture. And what drives culture we do it may be expressed through media, but we, humanity, we drive culture. That's why people trust people more than any form of marketing communication, television print out of home radio. We trust people. In fact, we trust strangers more than we trust marketers, which should be super sobering, right. That's why we, you know, we trust sexy lover 24 from Denver, who left a review on on Amazon. Because we trust people.
Jon:You know that's really interesting. And when you start thinking about disinformation, that's a completely different kettle of fish, because uh, yeah, you'll have, uh, you'll have the media telling her or a science publication telling you one thing uh, you know, about global warming, for example and then sexy lover 24 from Denver saying something completely different.
Marcus:And the idea is like which one is true, right? It usually depends on who's telling us Right. So how do you who's?
Jon:telling us Right. So how do you dispel that? How do you find out the truth?
Marcus:I would say that it requires tons of public discourse. Yeah, like it has to happen in a public square where they get to see other people that they think that they're like go, yeah, dude, we don't do that, you go. Oh, I didn't realize. Oh, man, I didn't realize. Oh man, I didn't realize, you do that too. It's almost like. It's almost like our the shift that we've had with mental health, that mental health has become much more adopted into the popular zeitgeist, not because of any ad campaign, but because people were saying that he had to go to my therapist. You go, whoa, you go to therapy. You go. Yeah, dude, you don't. You go. No, I'm not crazy, he's like you'd's like you're gonna be crazy. Go to therapy. What do you mean? He goes therapy, she goes therapy, you go. I had no clue, and once I realized that people like me do it, I go. I guess it's okay, and then I go. Maybe I should have a therapy session as well. That's how these things reverberate through our people.
Jon:So this has been a great conversation. Now I'm just wondering, as we wrapped things up, when you are engaging in the world, as you do every day, how do you define yourself? What's?
Marcus:your multi-hyphenate. I was thinking of myself as a follower of Christ, Georgia and Ivy's father, and a servant. I feel like I feel like I've been putting this earth to serve, and I think that that's kind of what we're all meant to do. And the way I serve is by helping people realize the best version of themselves. And since that is what I feel I was putting this earth to do, I always keep that in the forefront of my identity to ensure that I'm living up to it.
Jon:That notion of service is really beautiful, but I have to add a couple more. You've got a book in your hand there, oh yes, and you know we'd have to have writer. You said jazz musician swimmer, do you play jazz?
Marcus:I used to play used to play trumpet, but you know what I think about. I think about the book, authorship, scholarship teaching and even as a practitioner I thought those are all just ways in which I serve right, they're all just different. Scholarship teaching, and even as a practitioner, I find those are all just ways in which I serve. They're all just different vehicles that drive the exact same purpose. Marcus, this was great, a lot of fun. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, thank you Appreciate you. Yeah, I appreciate you. That was awesome.
Jon:I can't wait to dig in. Hopefully you got it all. Yeah, we're good. Can I have a picture? Yeah, let's do it here. We're good. Can I have a picture? Yeah, let's do it. Here's a picture with everybody else but me. Thanks for joining us on Shift today and thanks to Marcus Collins for joining us at InVentures and for the opportunity to have that quick interview afterwards. As usual, you can find us online at shiftalbertainnovatesca or on any of your favorite streaming services.
