Shift by Alberta Innovates
Shift by Alberta Innovates
Transforming Alberta's healthcare: innovations, partnerships, and digital solutions
The interview in this episode was done by Joshua McCutcheon of the Alberta Health Services i4 podcast, Insights. Thanks for the great work, Joshua!
Unlock the secrets to transforming Alberta's healthcare system through innovation, as we bring you insights from Nancy Walter and Muna Sabouny of Alberta Innovates. As the creative force behind Alberta's research and innovation, this crown corporation under the Ministry of Technology and Innovation spearheads groundbreaking advancements in digital health, clean resources, and artificial intelligence. With a century-long legacy, Alberta Innovates orchestrates a diverse portfolio of projects, converting cutting-edge research into practical solutions that prioritize sustainable, human-centered care.
The conversation dives into the power of strategic partnerships with initiatives like the Partnership for Research and Innovation in the Health System (PRIHS) and the Digital4Health program. Nancy and Muna describe how these collaborations between researchers, clinicians, tech providers, and health service delivery partners are pivotal in enhancing patient well-being and optimizing the health system. By aligning goals and fostering open communication, these programs bridge knowledge gaps and generate impactful, patient-centered outcomes within the health ecosystem.
In a compelling narrative, they spotlight Dr. Darren Lau's work on improving diabetes care for rural First Nations and Indigenous communities through the innovative LINK project. By harnessing digital health solutions, his team aims to elevate care quality and accessibility. The conversation also tackles "wicked challenges," leveraging rich health data and collaborative efforts to revolutionize healthcare. Alberta's potential to lead health system transformation shines as they explore the pursuit of improving care experiences, workforce well-being, health equity, cost efficiency, and overall population health.
Shift by Alberta Innovates focuses on the people, businesses and organizations that are contributing to Alberta's strong tech ecosystem.
Recently, my colleagues Nancy Walter and Muna Sabui had a chance to sit down with Alberta Health Services' I4 Insights podcast host, joshua McCutcheon to talk about Alberta Innovates and what the health team is doing to achieve health system transformations through partnership in the Alberta ecosystem. So you're all going to get a break from me this week and you're going to get to hear Joshua interviewing Nancy and Muna as they wax eloquently about health innovation.
Joshua:Muna and Nancy, thank you so much for joining me today.
Nancy:Thanks for having us
Joshua:Ttime. This is going to be a great morning. So the first question I want to ask you both, tell us a little bit about Alberta Innovates. Describe your role, value and how Alberta Innovates partners in transforming the health care system in Alberta.
Nancy:Oh yes, thanks, Josh. That's a loaded question, but you know it's funny because I do quite often get asked, you know, by friends and family. So what do you actually do? So it wouldn't surprise me that maybe not everybody is familiar with Alberta Innovates does, so I'll maybe just give a brief sort of Coles notes version and overview of the organization before we dive a little deeper into some of the cool things that we're doing in the health ecosystem, so we are a crown corporation reporting directly into the Ministry of Technology and Innovation, and we are Alberta's research and innovation engine and we're very proud of that.
Nancy:Another thing that most people might not know is that we've actually been in operation for over a hundred years now, so we've been kicking around for some time now, and we support the needs really of many different players in the health ecosystem, including industry, entrepreneurs, government, post-secondary and not-for-profits as well, and we support them through our different areas of focus. So and at this point in time, we do have five focus areas, and so we're we're supporting research and innovation in digital health, of course, which is why Muna I are here today clean resources, smart agriculture, agriculture, artificial intelligence and entrepreneurial investments as well, and so I think the important thing to realize here is that, you know, not only are all of these five areas of focus sort of a significant opportunity for economic development and investment in Alberta, but, even more so, it really helps us solve some of Alberta's and not only Alberta's, but big global challenges. And so, personally, for me, that is something that I'm really excited about, because we are out here solving big, wicked problems, and you know, Muna I and all the team members on our team have an opportunity to contribute to that and maybe to just put things into perspective on the work that we're doing across the organization. So, beyond even just a health innovation portfolio, our portfolios contain about 1300 different active projects and there is about $1.3 billion worth of investments across those portfolios as well, and so I think you can see that we're up to some pretty cool stuff.
Nancy:But even though we do consider ourselves and we are the research and innovation engine in Alberta, we do also understand that solving problems is not something that can be done in a vacuum, and our success is very much grounded in sort of these interconnected relationships that we already have and that we continue to foster and continue to explore, and so not only are we a funder and service provider, which is something that I think traditionally people think of when they think of Alberta Innovates is oh yeah, we fund technology and innovation. But probably more importantly, we consider ourselves a convener and a connector, a collaborator and partner as well in the health innovation ecosystem, really looking to connect all the dots and hopefully turn what is the art of the possible which is, I think, what the design lab likes to call these things as well and turn that into reality and really see what can we do when we bring all the right minds to the table.
Muna:And so maybe just zooming in a bit more there, so Nancy and I are part of the health innovation team, and the health innovation team is organized into four portfolios, so we have a research team, we have commercialization, health system transformation, and we also have our talent team.
Muna:e
Muna:e also have our platforms group and they provide ecosystem level supports, so for clinical trials, ethical decision making and also patient oriented research, and so together the health innovation team, the health platforms team, forms the broader health team here at Alberta Innovates, and the team is on a mission to essentially strengthen Alberta's economic competitiveness, improve the well-being of its residents, really, and we hope to do that all by cultivating this innovation ecosystem that excels at converting research and technology into sustainable, human-centered care. And if we go back to the 1,300 active projects that Nancy had mentioned, just to kind of again put things into perspective here, the health team manages around 180 active projects and we have around $30 million invested in the last fiscal year. So we're up to some great stuff, and we're excited to talk a little bit more about it today. But maybe before we get into the nitty gritty, Nancy, if you want to dive in a bit more into our portfolio specifically.
Nancy:, so going to zoom in even a little bit further now, but I think it goes to show, really, just like, just how broad and how big the organization thinks. And then you know we have a pretty well very comprehensive I should say health team. And then, specifically, of course, you have Muna and I here sitting today and we represent, together with Antonio Bruni, who is not with us today, but he's the director of the health system transformation portfolio. So we represent and do work around how might we be able to transform the health system? And you know we do that by. You know we're looking to address pressing health system challenges and our drivers for that are really our partnerships and our collaborations within the health ecosystem. And we're working with partners both from across the province and also across the continuum of care. So we don't just look at, you know, acute care or primary care. We're really seeking, like, what are the most pressing challenges, what is a good partner in the system? And then how can we come together to make the magic happen? And I mean, I don't have to tell you, or probably even the listeners on this podcast, but we do know that health systems, nationally and globally, of course they're stretched and they're in crises and you know we do believe that these kind of wicked problems that we're facing as it relates to health and well-being, it really takes us to come together so we can rethink how we deliver and receive care right, and
Nancy:that's when you will hear Muna and I probably multiple times today will hear us refer to models of care and when we say that, that's when we think of you know, how are we delivering care and the different interconnected pieces that contribute to these kind of care pathways. And you know, ultimately, through the work that we do in the health system transformation portfolio, our goal is to, you know, think about how can we be more preventative in our approach, how can we keep people in their communities and in their homes for longer? So it's moving away from this model of what right now is actually sickness care rather than healthcare and moving into a more community-based model. And then also moving maybe away from what is this heavily acute care-based model into more of a model that is again preventative and community-based in nature.
Nancy:And we do believe within our portfolio and in the broader health team, of course, we believe we can do that through digital health and that's really what we're trying to accelerate through the work that we're doing across the portfolios and maybe just one little piece about, like, how we actually do that. So when you know, so we're bringing together health system partners and, you know, technology solution providers, so the goal is actually implementation. So we're looking at how can we allow health system partners, together with technology solution providers, to both implement and evaluate their technology and that novel care model that drive forward our work. And we always like to sort of paint that picture Like it's actually very simple because the health system. We know that we have big, big needs and big problems and challenges in the health system, but on the other side we have these great ideas and great solutions but sometimes they don't find each other and part of the work that we're doing is try to bring those together and bridge that gap.
Joshua:So, Nancy, you mentioned a couple of things around the funding and bringing in sort of these care models. So I'm curious how does Alberta Innovates work to sort of allow or create spaces where we can bring in these models and sort of test them, and how does this translate into real life change within the healthcare system?
Nancy:Yes, so that's a good question. So, again, I'll probably speak specifically to the programs that Muna and I are part of, because we're obviously very well aware of how these programs function and how we bring about health system transformation through these programs, and so, within the health system transformation portfolio, we do have two key programs that allow us to again enable these more human-centric care models, and, specifically, they do that by driving forward digital health for the reasons that I mentioned earlier. So first, we have our Partnership for Research and Innovation in the Health System, or short PRIUS, and you may be aware of this program because this is our longstanding partnership, of course, with Alberta Health Services, and so this partnership really was designed to provide an opportunity to researchers and clinicians that are affiliated with one of Alberta's post-secondary institutions to implement and test these novel care models
Nancy:that a do we know we need to make some changes? And then these clinicians and researchers come forward with these proposed solutions to test these novel care models, and the goals, ultimately, of this specific program are twofold, and, of course, number one is that to improve patient health and well-being, but then also is to generate health system benefits. So an example for that would be are we generating maybe some cost savings or cost avoidance in the health system as well? So this is the twofold objectives of that program, and so the partnership has been longstanding and has been in place actually for almost 10 years now, so since actually it has been 10 years, so 2014.
Nancy:And so since 2014, we have seen eight successful Prius cycles. And so since 2014, we have seen eight successful Prius cycles, and the last two so Prius 7 and 8, they did focus specifically on bringing forward digital health solution into the healthcare system, and those two cycles alone they saw about a $15 million worth of investments into those projects that were ultimately funded to bring forward, you know, health system changes. And again, these projects covered a sort of a breadth of different area, of focus areas, including, you know, preventative health, remote and rural community health as well, as well as, of course, the kind of care that we deliver in our acute care settings. So that's the previous program, the kind of care that we deliver in our acute care settings. So that's the Prius program.
Nancy:And then we do have another program that we are very excited about and that is our Digital for Health program, which you know. That goes back to my conversation earlier about the big problems and the big solutions, and the Digital for Health program is meant to bring together the health system partners. So we work with health system partners that, of course, are experiencing these big problems, these big challenges, and then bring them together with high potential technology solution providers and then allow them again to implement, test and evaluate these new models of care that are again driven by digital health technologies and these partners can be again from across the continuum of care. Really. And you know, I think A big key point in regards to the Digital for Health program is that these challenges that we've been talking about, they're evidence-based, they're data-driven, and this is why these partnerships are so important, and maybe, Muna, you can talk about this a little bit later on in the conversation. But so we really look at what does the data tell us and what are the biggest challenges that need to be addressed immediately, and then, you know, these digital health companies come in and hopefully, with their high potential solutions, they can address these gaps through their technology.
Nancy:So I think that's really exciting, because sometimes these two just don't find each other, and so to date we have had a partnership with Alberta Blue Cross and then also actively right now with the Glen Rose Hospital Foundation, and then we are currently in the process to work towards another and a new partnership in the continuum care space as well. So you can see we really we are covering partnerships across the continuum of care. And then, aside from the partnership stream, we have recently also built a new stream to the Digital for Health program, that being the project stream. So sometimes we realize that, like our health system partners, they may have a technology solution in mind already, so they might already be thinking about a technology solution provider, or they might even have their own technology solution. So they, they might even have their own technology solution, so they can come forward with that technology that they already have in mind and then apply to the program as well to allow us to support their real world implementation. So these are the two streams under the Digital for Health program.
Joshua:That's amazing. I have a follow-up question. You know we've been talking a lot about partnerships and I'm curious you know what does a good partnership look like, like? What are the ingredients that you have found that make partnerships successful and allowed you to sort of continue to do this work for a hundred years?
Muna:That is a great question. So partnerships, I mean I know we've mentioned it a lot they're really the backbone of what we do here in the health system transformation team. Honestly, they're essential for our success, and working with all these industries and organizations, you know again, as a convener and a connector, we're able to bridge gaps. We're also able to tap into a wealth of knowledge and expertise in ways that we genuinely just wouldn't have been able to do on our own. I know Nancy had mentioned the Digital for Health program. So Alberta, blue Cross, the Glen Rose Hospital Foundation, they've been truly instrumental in helping us co-develop challenges data-driven challenges and also they come with the resources, the infrastructure that we really need for an effective implementation study and they also bring in that sector specific knowledge. But in terms of the you know the ways to build successful partnerships, I mean there really isn't a perfect recipe or a one size fits all, even though you know we might wish that there was.
Joshua:We do think that if you find one you know, then please do tell us. Leave it in the comments.
Muna:But we definitely think alignment on goals and objectives is key.
Muna:So having that shared vision right from the start, and starting with that end in mind too, is really important, and in our case, that's enhancing human-centric care models that leverage digital and data-enabled technologies that contribute to health system sustainability.
Muna:So that part is really important to us. But also beyond that, we prioritize really good communication with our partners and commitment to mutual learning and growth. So a partnership should really feel like a true collaboration where everyone is really invested in each other's success and not just a transaction. At the end of the day, we're creating that network of support and innovation that would drive us all forward, and it's not just working side by side. We're learning from each other and pushing the boundaries of what we can hopefully achieve together and I know Nancy had mentioned Wicked a few times, but that is of what we can hopefully achieve together. And I know Nancy had mentioned Wicked a few times, but that is exactly how we solve Wicked problems. So again, yeah, not a one size fits all, but there are a few things that definitely set us up for success with our partners.
Nancy:I love that. It's sort of that connection of you're empowering each other to do your best work as you grow together and your understanding and the way you tackle challenges. It's sort of that connection of you're empowering each other to do your best work as you grow together and your understanding and the way you tackle challenges. It's so important and I really really love that.
Joshua:Absolutely, and if you can keep in mind, right, like we have already all these great minds and players in the health ecosystem, and it's just sometimes, maybe we can do better and actually talking to each other and sharing those ideas, which then maybe will come to something even bigger and better, and so partnerships really do allow that and really draw on what's already there, and maybe we just haven't taken it far enough.
Nancy:I love that, Create opportunity for creative collisions, as people can then go and share all of their knowledge with each other, and we continue to grow and create really awesome things. But I'm curious, though how do you pick where you're going to work? So, like you've mentioned a couple of times, it's like you use a lot of data and there's a lot. We know health care is ripe for innovation and change, but there's so many spaces. So you know what are some of those key aspects for identifying and selecting high potential? You know challenges or, like those wicked problems that you've talked about.
Joshua:Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right, there are so many challenges that we can address, and I really believe that Mona kind of mentioned this already through what she was saying about the partnerships. But we lean heavily on our partners to tell us because we have, again, alberta there's a wealth of health data that maybe sometimes we don't. The use of that health data is not yet optimized, right, but we have the data that tells us where are sort of our biggest challenges and where can we have significant impact, and for a long lasting sort of, for, I guess, for sustainable impact as well, right. So it's not just now, but for sustainable impact as well, and so that's what the that's the value the health system partner brings to the table. And so then together, collectively, as a partnership, we look at that data and we identify what is that biggest challenge that we can address. So, again, they're needs-driven, informed by data, and are situated anywhere across the continuum of care, depending on who that partner is. So we're talking about Alberta Blue Cross, so it was about the wellness and chronic diseases, versus, of course, working with the Glenrose Hospital Foundation. I should say it's really about advancing rehabilitation care in Alberta and then, I think, the role we were talking about these big problems, big solutions. The partner helps us better understand, first of all before we jump to the solution and again, Josh, you will love this, being with the design lab is understanding what is the big problem before we jump to the solution.
Joshua:So the data is one piece, but the second piece is actually also just really understanding. What does that community tell us, right, like, what are the needs? Maybe beyond the data, and maybe can we have some conversations with the people, and maybe with the people of Alberta that have lived experiences, not just health system administrators or healthcare providers. So, for example, maybe in our current partnership with the Glen Rose Hospital Foundation, together we have launched what we call the Creating the Future of Rehabilitation Care Challenge to enable both equitable access and improved transitions in care for the people in Alberta and specifically for those living in rural and remote Alberta. And the reason for that being is because that's what the data told us. We know that there's many Albertans that, of course, live outside of Edmonton. Edmonton is the main center. We have the Glen Rose Rehabilitation Hospital and people come here for their specialized rehabilitation care needs, and so the data has told us that. So how can we maybe keep people in their communities and help provide the specialized rehabilitation care they need there, because it's quite difficult to come and travel depending on your socioeconomic sort of context as well Right, it's not that easy to just take off and visit the Glen Rose Rehabilitation Hospital.
Joshua:But then the other part is we wanted to even better understand what's getting in the way as it relates to equitable access and transitions in care for those that are in need of rehabilitation care. And so, as part of this partnership specifically, we have recently undertaken a significant engagement with stakeholders within the rehabilitation care community that included health professionals, administrators, clinicians and, of course, people with lived experience to do just that, to fall in love with that problem and just to gain a better understanding of the true barriers that are currently getting in the way, of the true barriers that are currently getting in the way. And you know, I think Mona and I were both really proud on how this engagement turned out, because we engaged more than 100 individuals from across Alberta, including representation, of course, which was important from rural and remote regions for this engagement, and you know the information that we gathered and what we heard through these engagements, along with that health system data that we already previously had collected, is really instrumental in the support and sort of in the development, I should say, of the funding program that will ultimately allow us to bring about change and support some of these new models of care and rehabilitation care and this funding program, by the way, it is set to launch later this fall as well. And, josh, I just did want to give a shout out to the design lab as well for this, because we did have some support from the design lab in preparation for this, knowing that this is what you do and you do it very well. So thank you so much for being a partner in that.
Joshua:Again, another showcase of what it means to collaborate in the ecosystem, for sure. And then maybe I can also speak to our previous program, the one that's in partnership with Alberta Health Services, and so, in this specific case, we lean on Alberta Health Services to tell us, based on their data and based on you know, their strategic priorities, what are the kind of health system challenges that require, you know, a digital health solutions. And then again, these digital health solutions are brought forward by researchers and clinicians that are affiliated with an Alberta-based post-secondary institution, and I'd like to just share a couple of examples, I think, that showcase just how, what the kind of projects that we're funding and the kind of changes that they can make in the lives of the people of Alberta. So the first one being a project led by Dr Matthew James. He's with the University of Calgary and, together with his team, he's addressing the fragmentation of care that currently exists for patients that experience acute kidney injury and, as such, you know, had hospital admission and now they're looking for a transition from hospital into their homes and historically and currently, this can result in, you know, adverse long-term outcomes, so there's a risk of readmission, there is a risk of cardiovascular events and infections as well. And then so his team currently right now it's an active project is implementing what is a multi-component digital health solution, which includes computerized clinical decision support and digital remote patient monitoring as well, to improve readmission rates and hopefully improve long-term outcomes for patients that are experiencing AKI or acute kidney injury. So that is one example and then one again just showcasing the continuum of care that we're kind of covering.
Joshua:Another project is Dr Darren Lau.
Joshua:He's with the University of Alberta and together with his team, they're addressing diabetes care for adults that are living in rural First Nations and Indigenous communities, and so diabetes care for those communities is currently, it's fragmented, it's difficult to access again, which leads to a worse diabetes outcome compared to the general population.
Joshua:And so for his, his digital solution is an integrated virtual solution that they call Link, and it's meant to improve access to high quality diabetes care and, again, it's multi-component, so it's about delivering care virtually and then just using digital health tools to do that and then, but do that by allowing people to remain within their communities as well, which is a huge factor when it comes to health and wellness as well. And you know, I think the other exciting part about this project is that the solutions are really tailored to the unique needs of each community, because each one of these communities they're not the same, they have different needs, and so that kind of digital health solution does provide and address the unique, I guess, needs for each one of these communities. And, you know, really hopefully we will be able to provide the kind of high quality diabetes care that the general population currently receives to those that are living in those more rural, indigenous, first Nations communities as well.
Nancy:I love it. You're picking these challenges where there's this connection between quantifiable and qualifiable data, as you're taking data and merging it with stories. It's so important, especially when we're dealing with how complex or, like you both said, wicked challenges, where the perspective is so important when we're talking to somebody from, maybe, who lives in Edmonton versus somebody who lives in a rural community, who's four hours away but still requires a lot of support with whatever illness that they're faced with.
Joshua:Absolutely, and that's what makes us a wicked, right. It's just it's so complex and so where do you even start, right? So we love that word Wicked and partnerships. It's going to sound really funny by the end of this conversation.
Nancy:No, it's, you know, it's so important. I actually love that. I'm going to use that in the future as we talk about wicked partnerships and these groups of individuals who tackle these really difficult systemic challenges.
Joshua:I think it's fair, because we're stealing things from you and so you can steal something from us. Great partner.
Nancy:Yeah, we are great partners, yes, for sure. So I do want to ask one more question before I sort of start to bring us together and sort of wrap us up. You know, healthcare is in a difficult spot right now. I think we can agree that we are faced with some challenges. I'm curious from Alberta Innovates and you, specifically you both what do you both see as our greatest opportunities and challenges as it relates to health system transformation in Alberta?
Joshua:Yes. So again, we're talking about WICCID. So we have a number of really big system problems. And maybe I'd like to start out this question on a more positive note in saying that, you know, alberta is really well positioned to be a leader in health system transformation in Canada and globally. So, and that is because I believe, and we at Alberta Innovates believe we have the ingredients in place to make that magic happen. So, for one, we do have a. You know, we have a growing life sciences sector right now and there is a lot of movement, a lot of activity as well and a lot of excitement around that.
Joshua:We mentioned previously we have a wealth of health data in Alberta. Then we had the implementation and now hopefully also the optimization of the ConnectCare system, which allows us to collect, use, analyze data in a whole different way, even now that we and we can make really meaningful use of that. And then, lastly, health system stakeholders and the people of Alberta, to be frank, are demanding that we rethink how we deliver and receive care, because they know that the way it is set up right now, we can do so much better. And then we've had this emerging principle or concept lately that I hear a lot is that concept of the learning health system right. And so, again, people, I think there's appetite to embrace this idea of the learning health system, where we use data and generate knowledge, put that into practice and then move through the cycle on.
Joshua:How can we continuously through an iterative process and sort of make the changes that we need to bring about health system transformation? And so I do think all these ingredients are there, which is why Alberta is a great place to be, and then ultimately, you know, we can use that to solve the biggest challenges that we need to solve. I think we can tie that back to the quintuple aim really enhance care experiences. How can we achieve health workforce well-being? Right, because right now there's a lot of conversation about the health workforce, and rightfully so. How can we use these ingredients to advance health equity and reduce cost and ultimately improve overall population health? So all of these are within the art of the possible if we really optimize the ingredients that are already in place in Alberta.
Joshua:Now, on the other side, of course and again this is not surprising because we've talked about this today transforming healthcare and transforming the health system, there are a lot of many interdependencies, and so, therefore, we do require sort of a multi-sectoral approach to what we do and we require this collective effort and you know, we at Alberta Innovates believe certainly Mona and I, we do believe that conversation is that, you know, we're not just a intentional activities and strategic investments that allow us to continue to identify and foster these kind of very important collaborations and partnerships that allow us to work towards these sustainable and human-centric models of care. So that's where I think you know there's a lot of opportunity here, there's a lot of things that we can address, but it's like we need to continue to foster that interconnected spirit and those relationships as we move forward across the broader health ecosystem.
Nancy:That's amazing. So I guess you know, as you talk about partnerships and bringing people together, I sort of want to ask you a question this is my final one Like how do our innovators and inspirers from I4 get in contact with you, how do they learn more about the amazing work that you're doing and how do they find a way to become a partner as well?
Muna:Of course. So a lot of challenges out there. There's a lot of opportunities. There's only so much we can do alone. Here at Alberta Innovates. If you're interested in becoming a challenge partner under our Digital for Health program, we do have a challenge intake form up on our website, but we also encourage you to reach out myself or Nancy. We'd love to have a conversation, explore how we can work together and explore some of those challenges together and how we can bring them to life. On the other hand, if you'd like to contribute to our current challenges nancy had mentioned the creating the future of rehabilitation care program in partnership with the glenrose hospital foundation. So we are looking for real world implementation sites, or health service delivery partners, that's we'd like to call them. So we're looking for those sites for piloting, testing and evaluating digital health solutions, and so if that sounds like something you're interested in, that you could be a part of that you'd love to learn more about. Let's connect, reach out, and we'd be super excited to have a conversation about it.
Nancy:I just want to extend a quick thank you to you both for taking part on this I4 podcast, as we sort of explore the amazing work that you're both doing and that your teams are doing as well within the ecosystem within Alberta. Albertans are lucky to have your group and your organization. I also just want to say the work that you're doing is nothing short of incredible and I can't wait to for other Albertans to experience that work and reap the benefits and the rewards of the amazing work that your team does. So I just want to say thank you again, keep doing this amazing work and thank you for coming and sharing all of that input with us today at i4 podcast thank you so much, josh edifying, educational and fun.
Jon :Thanks, joshua, for hosting our uh two colleagues and uh make sure to check out the i4ahs podcast. And, on behalf of shift, I'm Hagan. We'll see you next time.
