From AI Founder To Present Father: Shelby Stephens On Building Intrinsic Motivation And Real Connection

What if the fastest way to connect with your child wasn’t advice, but better questions? Casey Jacox sits down with Shelby Stephens—dad of three, AI founder of Snacker, and lifelong learner—to explore how curiosity, calibrated vulnerability, and learner-led education can transform family life. From swapping “How was school?” for targeted T.E.D. questions to telling honest stories that don’t overburden kids, we map out a practical toolkit any parent can adopt.

Shelby opens up about choosing Acton Academy for his daughters, a model that replaces grades and homework with mastery badges, adaptive learning apps, and a studio contract kids write and sign. The outcome is powerful: children set their own goals, self-assess progress, and learn to hold themselves accountable. We talk through a pivotal moment—his daughter giving herself Xs on missed goals—and what it reveals about discipline, ownership, and intrinsic motivation. We also dig into EQ: why collaboration, boundary-setting, and healthy tech use might matter more than memorizing facts in a world rapidly reshaped by AI.

Beyond school, we lean into the inner game of parenting. Shelby shares small, durable habits—meditation, gratitude, micro-commitments—that improve presence and lower reactivity. We round out with Snacker.ai’s mission to remove friction from sharing knowledge on video, and a nod to Shelby’s music as another outlet for creative expression.

If you’re curious about raising self-directed kids, making vulnerability safe, and becoming a more present parent, this conversation delivers clear steps you can try today.   You also can follow Shelby's music on Spotify here!

Listen, share with a friend, and tell us: what question gets your child to truly open up? Subscribe, leave a review, and join us for more conversations that help us lead at home.

Transcript

Welcome, Season Seven Kickoff

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hi, I'm Riley.

Gratitude And Mindset Resets

SPEAKER_02 0:04

And I'm Ryder. And this is my dad show. Hey everybody, it's Casey J. Cox with the Quarterback Dadcast. Welcome to season seven. Can't wait for this season as there's a lot of great guests ahead. If you're new to this podcast, really it's simple. It's a podcast where we we interview dads, we learn about how they were raised, we learn about the life lessons that were important to them, we learn about the values that are important to them, and really we learn about how we can work hard to become a better quarterback or leader of our home. So let's sit back, relax, and listen to today's episode on the Quarterback Gadcast. Well hey everybody, it's Casey Jacocks with the Quarterback Dadcast. Welcome to season seven. And uh this next gentleman is someone I I came across in the wild world of LinkedIn and uh specifically in the wide world of AI, which I think you guys maybe have heard about it. It's kind of like everywhere, um, every freaking website and news channel, and everyone's getting anxiety because we're like, oh my god, I gotta get I gotta get ahead of this. And um, joking aside, but uh his name is uh Shelby Stevens, and he's the CEO and founder of Snacker.ai, a video AI tool that I'm actually using now. And um he didn't sell me, actually, I found him. Uh, because for those that follow me in my in my uh consulting coaching business, I do these little Friday videos, and I was like, I'm trying to think of find something that's might save me some time. So we're gonna we're gonna let the friends at Snacker uh drive the bus for a little bit. But not only is is Shelby the CEO, he's also a trident, a proud Washington Lee alum, if I got my my my history right. But with all that said, that it has nothing to do why we're gonna have him on. We're gonna have Shelby on today because we're gonna learn how Shelby the dad's working hard to become that ultimate quarterback or leader of his household. So without further ado, Mr. Stevens, welcome to the quarterback deck cast.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. It's a it's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

That was like the first take intro. Did you feel like the smoke machine coming out and like the tigers roaring in the background as you enter the room?

SPEAKER_01 2:02

I do. I was waiting for, you know, I was waiting for um Paradise City to come up in full blast or something. Thunderstruck?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, thunderstruck. Oh, I love it. Okay. Well, we always start out each episode with gratitude. So tell me, what are you most grateful for as a dad today? Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Um well, using the lens as a dad, I'm most grateful for how much I learn from my kids. They are um five, seven, and nine. And I am just uh consistently uh they they serve as many things, but one of the things they serve as is a bit of a forcing function to improve myself, and I'm very grateful for that consistent reminder in my life today.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

That's a fantastic uh self-awareness statement right there, everybody. Hope you everyone picked up on it. A ways to improve myself, he said, which I love. I'm actually gonna go something similar, man. I um we we for everybody at home, we decided at, you know, I'm almost 50, why not get a puppy? Perfect timing. You know, and I mean we almost got kids out of the house, but and it's like the worst. We're recording in December right now, and it the weather could not be worse in Seattle. Like it's like literally, we have a week to 10 days straight of just torrential downpour. And so it's like flooding outside. It's like in the dogs that go outside, it's just an absolute shit show. But that's not why I'm grateful. What I'm grateful for is my the mindset reset each day. And like I would tell you, last night I went to bed like really tired, a little on edge. And I was like, what are you doing, dude? Like it's like the self-talk I was having myself. I'm like, take a deep breath. Think about what's going on in life. You're like, it's all it's okay. And you know, then I kind of laughed about it before I went to sleep, and my wife and I laughed about it, and then woke up this morning, worked out, and did my gratitude work in my gratitude journal. And I was just like, man, I'm just grateful that I can I have the ability to reset. And um, as corny as that sounds, it just gets me right mentally, like each day when I'm not my best, because none of us are our best each day. We're all flawed humans, we have that in common. And um, and I'm grateful my son's coming home today for a cop from college. He'll be home for a month, so it'll be awesome to see him tonight.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Cool. Can I ask you why you got a puppy?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

So, yeah, great question. Um, we love dogs, and we had a two and a half year old who had an older dog that hung out with, and so when she the older one died, her name is Stella, our young, our older one now, Harley. Harley was like, she it was almost like she thought it was like a hide hide and seek game. Like, hey, where the hell where'd Stella go? Yeah, we're like, uh, she died. Sweet, sorry. And then so we were like, she was just like pouting, and we live on property, and so you know, it's like we wanted her to have some exercise and be able to run. So day one, we brought this puppy home, and she was like, What the Sams hell is this? What have you guys done to me? And then day two, it was like stepbrothers, do we just become best friends?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Best friends.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

So it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

That's cool. Let me I want to ask you one more question if it's okay. You how old is your son who's coming home today?

SPEAKER_02 5:09

He's 19.

Curiosity And TED Questions With Kids

SPEAKER_01 5:11

I I'm I I just like there's a little bit of a random curveball question, but when your son who's 19, he's coming home from college, I assume. For a month, yeah. Yeah, for for Christmas break. So when your 19-year-old son is coming back from college, what do you do to be present with him and to engage on like a real level and to engage in a way where you know how how do you get below the surface, I guess, is my question.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Curiosity and it's consistent. I mean, we talk every day or snap every day or text every day. Not because he feels like he has to, it's just like we've always done that, and um very grateful for that. Um, you know, we'll we we've had you know ups and downs, just like any family, but we've when you when you ask him the second, third level questions with genuine curiosity and empathy, and you're and he sees that you're not in a trying to judge or fix, um, I've found that at least my kids respond to that. Um because it's hard, like you they're away and you you hope you've raised them the right way and you hope they're making good decisions. And I'm like we're lucky my son plays golf in college, so it's like it keeps them structured. Um so he's got he's like having a job, um, he's got good people around him. So um, I mean, so far that's worked, fingers crossed, it works when he gets home tonight.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Um did he did he go through phases where he kind of resisted that that going deeper, or is that something you guys have made?

SPEAKER_02 6:48

I mean any kid. Um I I I I mean I've had friends deal with that more me, um, you know, but I I I don't remember like a really tough and I don't know if it's just maybe luck of the draw. I don't know if it's because we've just had open communication since day one and it was been consistent. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

I don't we have to watch the film and um well I think this is like this is something that a lot of parents face and face as a challenge as their kids get older, and I'm not quite there yet, right? I have five, seven, and nine. Um, and and I'm so I'm at this stage where I'm thinking about and really interested in parents who have been able to develop that type of real, authentic, uh deep relationship with their kids and maintain that, you know, of course, with ups and downs and phases throughout. Um but I've like I'm like cat I'm like fishing. I'm out here fishing right now for like what are the things that parents who do this successfully who who have 19-year-old kids who are able to who they talk to all the time and it's not just surface level, who come home from college and they're able to engage and have those real conversations. And and I think that one way to characterize that type of relationship is that it really enables the parent to uh really best to to give their best as a parent, right? It's the it's the the child enabling the parent to like really do their best and vice versa, right? It's it's the parent enabling the child to you know maximally teach them and improve them, which goes back to what I said I was grateful for today. And so I want that, right, as their parent.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

And um, and that's what so that's why I'm asking is Yeah, well, I can give you like so when I when I was when I was 41, I went through a massive, like it was called the sales transformation at my company. I was I used to be at when I was in corporate. And I learned I learned the power of something called TED-based questions, which stands for tell me, explain, describe. And I've shared this many times on podcast before, Shelby, but I think it's I think it's timely. We're gonna talk about it again. So when when kids like your a and your age is your kids are at the perfect age to practice this stuff. So when you're when your kids come home from school, you could say, Hey, hey, honey, how was school? Good? What'd you do? Nothing? School sucks. Did you have fun? No, I hate it. I hate my teacher, she's an idiot. And then maybe maybe a parent just freezes up and like uh I'm busy. I gotta I gotta get back to my I gotta I gotta build snacker. And that's the story you tell yourself. Let me bring the tape. Hey, tell me two things that that made that made school bad today. Hey, tell me two things that made school fun today. This and this, great. Tell me more about that. Describe one way that you laugh today. If you could if you could be the principal for the school tomorrow, tell me what would you change? If we could go to vacation, tell me if we could go on vacation anywhere, tell me where we'd go. I mean, I could ted the shit out of people and never talk about myself once. And when you when I found that once I found out it's the second and third level question in life, which is where the gold's at, and it takes intentionality, you know, there's the phrase be where your you know, be where your feet are. So if we're gonna be with our kids and be in the present conversation, yet we're on our phone and we're not looking away, and making them, we're sending these um signals of we're not present, well, they're not they're gonna check out. And I actually believe the opposite of what I think a lot of people teach, which is you can't sweat the small stuff. I do sweat the small stuff. At times it's probably bad, but I think at times it's good. Because I think by me sweating the small stuff, it's it's created well-spoken, well-mannered, um, you know, kids that could at your kids' age, they were ordering by themselves. They could be at a restaurant by themselves. So remember you and I talked about that story you told me you know a month and a half ago. They could um they've traveled by themselves. Um, and a lot of this growth for my kids actually came actually during COVID when we realized as a family we were doing too much for our kids. And one of my former guests, guys named Swen Nader, wrote a book called Um You Have Not Taught Until They Have Learned. And we were those husband and wife that were doing too much for our kids. We didn't realize it. But COVID, like, you know, we didn't have any activities, which just shut us down. And we're like, whoa, holy shit, what are we doing? Like, no, you can do your own laundry and you can do the dishes and you can make your own food. Not because I don't want to, but you we need to you need to learn how to do this. I don't know if that helps.

Vulnerability Without Overburdening Children

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Absolutely. I think so. And I I think one of the things that um I'm thinking a lot about lately is just the the overall concept of vulnerability, but you know, applied specifically to parenting and to interacting with kids. And I think um Tell me why. Well, it strikes me as a kind of fundamental truth that building uh real, deep, authentic relationships uh r requires a foundation of vulnerability in both directions, and um vulnerability is really hard for a lot of different reasons. Um and I think but specifically with your kids, I think with with younger kids, one of the things I'm thinking about, curious if if you have thoughts on this, is balancing authentic vulnerability with not wanting to overburden kids based on how old they are, right? Um it's appropriate for me in some way to be vulnerable vulnerable about a struggle that I'm facing as a founder with maybe my nine-year-old. But I don't know if it's you know, it it needs to be slightly different with a five-year-old, right? And so when you're a parent, especially a parent with multiple kids, different ages, um it's just kind of like figuring out how to be appropriately vulnerable with each kid in a way that you can kind of then cultivate over time towards a relationship that is based on two-way vulnerability. So that's why I'm thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Yeah, unfortunately, um I I wish that when we left the hospital, there was a manual.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

And I still remember how much of a shock it was with our first child, our first daughter, you know, you you go through this intense experience of of childbirth, and and that's just my perspective, you know, especially the mom. And um, you know, you go through a couple days of like semi-recovery, or in our case, you know, a bit longer if they're in the NICU or whatever, and and then all of a sudden you just like go out the front door.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

And I'm kind of looking around, like waiting for kind of the you know, waiting for like permission or some sort of check, you know, some sort of checkout or some sort of the cops are gonna come by you. I mean surely somebody is gonna verify that we're responsible, you know, and and um and like and they don't, you know, and and you you put the car seat in the car and drive away.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah. I I will say though that I I think um my father-in-law was really good at this. He he said, he said, let kids be kids. And I think sometimes we there's things we can be honest with our kids, and there's things we don't need to be honest with our kids. Like, like if you're if your kid is really like for you, I say if you're if your nine year old is like really interested in the business and really interested in like, you know, asking tons of questions, then I would probably overshare. But if he or she's not, then I'd be like, be a kid. Be, this is the time in life where you don't have to worry about a lot of stuff. Dream.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Think about doing the biggest thing in the world. I when I think about vulnerability, Shelby, I think about I love sharing stories where I struggled as a kid or struggled as a dad, or when I've had a tough day at work, just to remind them that listen, your your first world problem to you, maybe you your eraser broke at school and that was so embarrassing. Or you tripped and you fell in the mud puddle and people laughed at you. Well, maybe dad had a sales call back when I was 26 and I shit the bed and the guy kicked me out of his office, and I feel like the biggest turd in a punch bowl, and I wanted to go home and cry. Well, that sucked, but guess what? The sun came up tomorrow, and I had a new new day to try to try it again. Like those are the stories, both vulnerability. I think, but you know, I've had I have uh one unnamed person in my life. They just they overshared on the other's other side, like about money stresses and this, and it just created anxiety for their kids. And I I think one one man's only I mean, I guess I'm not a doctor doing play one on TV. I I would I would always encourage that not to do that. Um and I get I think just the power of dreaming big just is so under undervalued, and too often I see parents, you know, ah you can't do that, or but why not? Why can't they do that?

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah, I I think um the tet the TED, I I hadn't heard I hadn't heard the TED framework before. I think that's really really helpful and just that combination of a real curiosity and and kind of like I won't say like relent, kind of persist like a persistent, a real curiosity and a persistence, right? And not just settling, not asking the three questions, getting flat answers and saying, well, I tried, you know, but they won't open up to me.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

But those were shitty questions. That's what we have to say.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Those are good questions. Right. So kind of not settling, right? And and um and then that that other part of it though, right, is what you're talking about is just kind of that consistent level of vulnerability with your kids about you know, challenges you've had and how you've overcome them or struggle with them. Um those two elements seem really important to me in terms of working towards the type of relationship that I think most parents want to have with their kids as they move towards, you know, towards adulthood.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Love it, man. You gotta let me know how it goes. I have stories for days of how this has like changed relationships with kids and parents. And I've seen it firsthand. I even I had a dad, a buddy of mine who I see every summer, he was like, What the hell is this? I go, just let me try it. And um, she played guitar. I know you play guitar, I play guitar. Not that good. Actually, if a really if no one doesn't play guitar and they see me play guitar, like, ah, Casey's pretty good. But if like a real guitar player saw me play guitar, it's like this guy sucks. You know, but anyway, so she played guitar and she was going through a tough time. And uh I remember her, I'm not gonna say her name just for protect her, but she goes, um Dad was struggling with a little bit. And I said, I just try I was learning this thing. I think I want to try it. He's like, phew, I don't care, go for it. And so I said, Hey, um, I said, tell me, you excited for guitar? Yeah. Tell me, do you ever find the transition from D to C hard? What? How do you know that? Oh, I I play too, I love playing guitar. Tell me what your favorite song is. Well, so fine. I go, I I still struggle with that D E G. Oh, so it's hard for me, but I bet you're way better at the meaning. Boom, she starts opening up, opening up a little bit. And then at the at like, and this is like a short guitar, and then she leaves the leaves the the car, and she's like, Alright, dad, see ya. Bye, case. Hey, Casey, thanks a lot. That that helped. Just you know, small little conversation. He's like, What the f F? I'm like, I know, dude, it's like magic, it's like ninja stuff. But but you have to be gen, it's not, I like the word persistent, but it's it's being genuinely interested.

Storytelling As A Parenting Superpower

SPEAKER_01 19:00

But it's like this, it's like this interweaving of those things, right? Like what you did there was like there was vulnerability woven into that. You're telling her, like, I struggle with this thing too. And it wasn't invented, right? Like it, it is when you're learning guitar, a hard transition, and she knows that. And so she knows that you're not bullshitting her, right? And so you've you've kind of like creatively in like an improv, like an improv, you've kind of improved, woven together a real curiosity, a uh a real vulnerability, and kind of an unw a persistence, an unwillingness to just like park it at at something shallow.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

100%. And I would tell, tell, just like I tell like executives and sales teams I work with, and just like whenever I talk to buddies, it's like it takes practice and time and intentionality. It's not kind of overnight. So, dads, if you this is like we've sparked sparked your interest, like I'm gonna try this TED stuff when I get home. Give yourself grace, you're not gonna be perfect at it. Um, and I would encourage people, like I nitpick like sales teams and leaders and I work with them on this stuff. I always, and I do this because the guy who trained me on this did it to me, remove the uh modifier. So instead of saying, can you tell me? You just turn to close open-ended question to a close-ended question. But if I just say, hey, tell me two things that you really enjoyed about this, wow, wow, tell me more about that. Watch what happens. Yeah, it's like literally magic.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yeah, if if I reflect back on I'll just say some of the more impressive conversations. I don't know if that's the right word. I mean, it it it it kind of doesn't really do justice, I guess, is the problem with that word. But just some some impressions, some conversations rather, that like with folks in sales who I thought were just amazing, right? Who maybe I was on the buying side and I was just like, man, this this like I would hang out with this person, you know? Um, that's what they do. Yeah, right. And they don't do it because it's a tactic, right? And this is kind of like this is why it doesn't work in the context of parenting either, if you're doing it because it's a tactic. Like maybe you have to learn it as a tactic, but it works when it's it works when it's when it becomes natural, right? And it whether it's it's a conversation with your daughter or your friend's daughter who's learning guitar, or whether it's a conversation with a potential hire or an investor or someone you're managing, like it lands and it and it resonates when it's natural, you know? And so you gotta practice it.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

You do, ma'am. Well, I just had a I just had a um I always say I think the best salespeople are curious storytellers. I think the best leaders are curious. Curious storytellers. I think the best parents are curious storytellers. I think it's just those are superpowers that and I'm glad you picked up on the vulnerability. So I always think the three superpowers or values that drive me and my life that I work on all the time are being humble, vulnerable, and curious. I think when those skills are prevalent, uh look out. Um and why was I going? I just lose my train of thought here. This is like showing my C CTE brain.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Well, you would, I mean, one of the things that I wanted to ask while you find that, because I know the threads will reconnect, is this concept of storytelling. By the way, you were saying kind of humble, vulnerable. Humble, vulnerable, and curious. And curious. Um, and how you know great leaders are like curious storytellers, I think you said, right? Like one of the things that's clever about using the framing of storytelling is that you know, if you um just kind of on the simplest level, like the what's the the hero's journey, the um who is that? Um Joseph Campbell. Um kind of this the story, the the the hero's journey. Like, I'm gonna get the I'm gonna get the actual hero's journey wrong, but like there's kind of the the call to adventure or the call to change or something, and then there's like the there's like despair, there's like great despair, right? And then there's kind of the finding of the the mentor, the inspiration and the struggle and the whatever. But there's that despair that's like often part of a great story. And so one thing that's very clever about using this framing of storytelling is that you're kind of like baking in the concept of vulnerability because if someone's telling a story and it's an engaging story, it's often often gonna include some component of you know, a great struggle, a great despair that I went through, you know. So it's a way of kind of like um including without even having to say the vulnerability, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Well well, even before that, Shelby, what I've found, I found this, I list learned this skill, I don't it just kind of happened, but I now apply it to my parenting is is I use curiosity before the storytelling. And so what I mean by that is I'm let's say there's something I want to teach my son, or I want to teach a sales team, or I want to teach a leader. If it if I go and say, hey, let me tell you a story, well, whose idea is that? It's mine, it's my idea. But if I said, hey, thanks for sharing that, tell me, would it be helpful if I shared a story where I went through something similar? And now they're like, yeah, now it's the idea.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

It's it's so consistent, not just in my personal experience, but what I hear from other parents too. When you tell your kids stories from when you were a kid, like they they're always interested. Like I've never, I it's just always, right? And like maybe this decreases as they get older. I don't know. I haven't been there yet, but like every time we're at dinner or whatever, and my wife or I says, you know, because of the way the conversation kind of naturally goes, like, you know, and I love that like asking, can I tell you guys this story? Maybe I do that, maybe I don't, I'm not actually sure. Um, they're just like so they get so interested. Yeah, and they ask you to tell those stories again, right? They'll say, hey, like, will you tell us again about that time that you and it could be something really small, you know? That what is your choice?

SPEAKER_02 25:22

So for dad's home, like this that's a that's a really important thing. I want to make sure that we're we capture this. You you're gonna have to tell the story the second or the third time. Tell me what is your choice in that map in that. You have a s you have a two fork in the road. What what are your choices there? God, I don't know. Simple. Your choices are to either tell them like they've never heard the story before, or or to maybe you're maybe you've had a rough day. And we say, you guys, I've told the story six times. Again, shit. Why? And maybe just because you're a little impatient that day, and you choose, and again, we're not perfect, but like I I found like when you just if if your kids are engaging and they're listening and they want to talk to you, those are the times of dads, moms go all in.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Totally. Whatever you've got going. It like didn't even occur to me that that was a choice. That when you asked that question, it was like it just didn't even occur to me. Like it would be so unnatural for me to be like, my kid is asking me to like go in and tell them this thing that they're really interested in.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Hey everyone, my name is Blaise Basell, and I hope you're enjoying today's episode of the Quarterback Dadcast. In case you're wondering, I'm a fellow dad and also the president of Kelly Mitchell. Kelly Mitchell is an employee-owned technology solutions firm, and we help organizations solve complex business challenges. I think at the end of the day, we're we're focused on our team doing work that matters for our clients. And that's because the way you show up matters, the way you treat people, clients, teammates, really everyone. That shapes the experience and the results that follow. I think similarly, Casey has had a real impact on our team internally at Kelly Mitchell. He spent time with us most recently in St. Louis with our sales team. And while he was there, he asked a question that really stuck with me. And that was do you believe that what you do matters? That question stayed with us. It's changed how we approach our day-to-day, how we prepare, how we communicate, and ultimately how we follow through. That's why the experience Casey brings to his customers has made such an impact. Because whether when people believe their work matters, everything works better across the team, with our clients, and definitely in results. So we appreciate you, Casey, and now back to the podcast.

Shelby’s Family Journey And Early Parenting

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Well, I tell you, man, what I love about this podcast journey that I'm on that helps me every day be a better dad is um we start with a blank piece of paper, we're taking notes, and we're 26 minutes in and we're like way off script that I usually traditionally go, which I could give two shits. So we're gonna we're gonna try to bring it, bring her back home a little bit, but this has been an awesome conversation to start. Um talk about uh how you and your wife met, if you feel comfortable, and then tell us a little bit a little bit about each one of your kids.

Discovering Acton Academy’s Self-Directed Model

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Sure. Yeah, so my wife and I have known each other for a long time. We went to high school together here in Austin. Um and uh we we both grew up in Austin. So we're kind of like if we if we ever get in an Uber or something and they find out that not only one of us, but both of us are from Austin, they're astonished. Um Austin has grown a lot. Um Rachel and I met at uh in high school, and we were good friends. We did not date in high school, um, but we were good friends and friends with each other's friends. And um uh we went to separate colleges. I went to school in Virginia, she went to school in Memphis, and um, I think it's probably good that we didn't date in high school or try to date in college. Um, I spent a year or just shy of a year in DC after college. Uh I'm a year older than Rachel, so she was finishing up, and I spent a year uh in Washington, D.C. working as an aeronautical engineer, and then moved back to Austin when I uh realized that I didn't want to work at a large company that somebody else was running and would rather try to build a company on my own. So I moved back to Austin. Rachel had just finished college. We ended up living with a group of friends, kind of a bunch of folks from high school who had all moved back to Austin. Uh, kind of a little post-college frat house vibe uh in those in those heady post-college years where everyone's partying and trying to figure out what you know what what's going on. Um and ended up starting, you know, dating and uh got married what is now 12 or 13 years ago. Um Rachel is incredible. She owns an art gallery here in Austin. Um it's uh inspiring to see uh see someone, uh who especially someone I'm close to, uh build a successful career in the world of art. Um she's she's been uh she's built an amazing business, an amazing art gallery. They represent about 50 artists, and uh uh she does great work every day. Um and that's not to mention kind of how well I I will just directly mention the um how incredibly supportive and patient she has been with my journey. I think um uh being the spouse of a founder and entrepreneur uh is really hard. Um it's challenging, it's frustrating uh on many levels, uh you know, times of good good times, times that are challenging, either emotionally, psychologically, financially, uh all three at once, um high highs, low lows, and being the type of person who's willing to uh stand alongside someone who's doing this kind of stuff uh while running her own business is just incredible. Um so I I I I I won the lottery, I won the spouse lottery, uh for sure. And um I'm I'm incredibly grateful for that. And I you know, I love her so much, and she's been so supportive of me uh and remains supportive of me. We had kids not so our first uh our oldest, we have three daughters, our oldest is nine. We had no idea what we were getting into when we had kids. Um we didn't I mean we had a few friends who had started having kids at that time. Um but just very, you know, n really minimal exposure to what it was like or what it would be like to have children. So yeah, we, you know, we we we walked out of, I told you earlier, you know, we walked out of the hospital with with Chambers, our first daughter, um and uh that was nine years ago. So uh we had kids about two years apart, um nine, seven, uh, and then our five-year-old was born at the beginning of COVID. Um so we had this really surreal hospital experience, like early, early COVID. Well, the end of Rachel's pregnancy was right when COVID was starting, and you know, there was a lot of uncertainty at the time of what would happen if somebody who was pregnant got COVID. I mean, there was a lot of uncertainty about what would happen to anybody if they got COVID. Um so that was really wild and and also just an incredible blessing to have a baby um the beginning of COVID. It meant that we couldn't get a lot of couldn't get much external support logistically, right? Um, with you know, childcare and things like that. Um, but there were a lot of bright sides to it um as as well. It was a it was a dark time and having you know a new having a new daughter was amazing. So uh our kids are um they're just incredible. So um the two older girls are at one of the Acton Academy schools. Acton Academy is a network of what is now, I think, about 300 schools around the world. It was started in Austin uh about I don't know, 13, 15 years ago, something like that, um, by a husband-wife uh team of entrepreneurs. Um, husband and wife, Jeff and Laura Sandifer. They started the first one and it's very different. Um happy to go into a rabbit hole of the how it's I've never heard about it, so tell us, yeah, educate me. Well, there's it's spelled A-C-T-O-N. Um and um and our youngest is finishing up Montessori. We we live um a block away from a Montessori school here in Austin, uh near downtown, just west of downtown. And so we walk her to school, and so she's in her last year kindergarten there, and then she'll move over. So next year will be our first year with three kids at one school, which I'm excited about for a lot of reasons. Um, but when Chambers, our oldest, was three in this Montessori school, um I just I just became interested in education in general. And I started researching um schools. Rachel and I both went to private schools here in Austin and had really, really good experiences, got a really great education. We were very fortunate to have the the school experiences that we did. And um yet working in tech and seeing how quickly things are changing, extrapolating out to, you know, at the time that was six years ago. So I was kind of extrapolating out what is the world gonna look like when this little girl is 18 years old. Um who knows, right? I mean, people are gonna be plugging their brains into the internet. I mean, it's just it if if we think the our world was different from our parents' world, you know, think about how different these kids' world is gonna be from even what we know today. Um, and then AI happened, by the way, like in it just since then, right? So so I was just kind of extrapolating out and thinking, look, you know, there's you know, maybe there are other ways of doing education that are different, that might be better able to prepare kids to to go into these whatever the world's gonna look like. And um, and so I started reading. And there's a lot more research now than there was about how education works, what works, what doesn't. Um the you know, the kind of rise of these adaptive learning apps has has happened, right? Kind of back then it was like, you know, maybe Khan Academy is effective, and now it's like, okay, well, like there's a lot of good data that these adaptive earning learning apps, you know, help kids learn faster. Anybody that's ever tried Duolingo or simply piano or something knows how quickly this is one of the things that humans got really good at in terms of designing technology uh is designing products that help people learn. Um, and uh anyway, so I started researching this. I read a couple books. I read one called Free to Learn, um One World Schoolhouse by Sal Kahn, the Khan Academy uh founder. Um, I don't know, a bunch of I I ended up reading a bunch of books about school and education, and pretty quickly realized that like the common qu the kind of the common question that parents wrestle with of kind of like public school or private school, uh just missed the forest for the trees. And really the question for me was a traditional teacher-led classroom environment or something else. Um and after reading, you know, as much research as I could get my hands on, I pretty quickly became convinced that a non-traditional approach would be more likely for our family, for who I thought my, you know, my daughter, my three, four-year-old daughter at the time was would be better. So we looked at a Austin, for whatever reason, has a bunch of non-traditional schools now. It's crazy. I don't know if this is happening in other cities, but there are tons of non-traditional schools in Austin now. And um, we looked at one called Alpha that's now like leaning really heavily into AI and doing some interesting stuff that wasn't right for us for a number of reasons. Um and uh then we found the Acton schools, and there are four in Austin now. They're all pretty small. Um, we looked at a few of them, and then we found one called Ascent. Uh, Ascent was started by the two original guides at the first Acton school before it started growing globally. I think I mentioned earlier there's about 300 of them now. So my two older daughters go there, and my younger daughter, uh Magnolia, is gonna be going there next year. And so far it's going really well. It's very different. There are there's no teacher-led instruction, like in a classroom. There's no grade, there's no grading, there are no grades or tests or quizzes uh of any type, there are no homework. Um, some of some acting schools go through high school. Ascent uh is in the process of adding their middle school, it'll start this coming year, and uh ultimately uh they aim to add a high school as well. So I I hope that they're able to build so that we can kind of uh we can stay there. Um but they're incredible. They're they're geniuses. They're they're they're they are geniuses at designing educational environments where children are actually intrinsic actually motivated to pursue learning uh on their own. My kids um choose what they want to work on, they set their own goals, they pursue their own goals, they get badges when they hit milestones instead of grades. So it's kind of like a combination of scouts, like a badge system from scouts, if you're familiar with that, um meets some influences of of Montessori, um some some kind of Lord of the Flies.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

I it's interesting, like that I try to have uh an open mind in life, and I and that is I can't even that's not something I can even never lived, but like it obviously works for people, and it's amazing if we if we all listen to learn versus listen to persuade when you hear things that maybe aren't normal to you, doesn't mean they're not normal to society. But I think sometimes we've we as a society get stuck in these ways of just like because maybe the media I listen to or read or the books I read, it's like well, it's only this way. But I think it's kind of cool that you guys found something that that's obviously working for your family.

Intrinsic Motivation Over Extrinsic Pressure

SPEAKER_01 40:04

It's working, it's working so far. Um I am so grateful every time I go to that campus that we found this school. I have become a significantly better parent because my kids go to this school. Um in so many different ways. I mean, maybe give us an example of how. Well, so like I'll give you a couple. One is um they do these parent meetings. They do four a year, and you go and it's not talking about the school, it's not talking about what's happening at the school. It's like a 90-minute meeting with pretty much all the parents, you know, all the parents who can make it. I think you're required, they they they basically require you to go to, I think, at least three of them. Um and it's like this incredible Socratic discussion introspection about some sort of you know, seemingly always very relevant topic, um, about how to be a good parent and how to be a good spouse so that you can both be good parents. And and that's and and so they they they do this with the parents because it helps the parents uh better support uh kids who are in a self-directed learning environment. Um and so it's kind of a tactical example. I think another one though is like one of the fundamental premises of this you know, learner-driven, self-directed approach to education um is that the parents, it doesn't really work if the parents are providing are providing the kind of traditional extrinsic pressure that parents often provide with schoolwork. You're behind in math, you need to work more on your math, you're you don't forget to do your homework. Um I got your report card, we need to talk about it. You know, what what grade did you get on that test? Why didn't it go well? Like these kind of tradit the traditional role that parents often play in the context of education. A learner-driven, self-directed environment doesn't really work if the parent is doing that. The kid has to, the you have to let the kids grow into an intrinsic motivation to pursue their own development. And um this is really hard. I think it's the most difficult thing about choosing this path for your kids' education. It's the most difficult, at least it has been for me, and I think this is common with other parents I talk to. Um letting that happen and walking that line of being there to support your kids in these incredibly challenging moments without prescribing solutions, without stepping in, um, is very difficult. But what that does for the parent is incredible because it removes that from if you think of your relationship with your kid as a big spaghetti bowl of all sorts of different things, two-ways, pressure conversations, you know, emotions, law, like all these things. Well, if you just extract from the soup this role of parent as arbiter of education, as kind of ultimate, you know, uh enforcer or judge or something of education and learning, there's so much more room in the soup. And uh so I don't have to do that with my kids because we've been patient. And they've developed this capability to pursue their own loaning. Who knows? The train could go off the tracks tomorrow, right? But so far it hasn't. And so if it and it seems kind of like a one-way progression to me. I could be wrong, and I'm sure there's maybe regressions or something, but like it kind of seems like this thing that they're developing that probably they're not going to throw in the trash. And so not having to do that is incredible because when my kids come home, I don't we just we don't have to have that, which can so often be toxic, I think.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Um how much a mix of their IQ versus EQ? You mean for me? No, at the school.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

So they do all of their core skills development on adaptive learning apps. They spend about an hour a day on laptops, which by the way, a lot of parents are kind of scared of, especially on the in the younger years. But I have found that what it actually does is it teaches them at an early age how to have a healthy relationship with technology and to really tease apart the difference between using technology to learn and using technology for entertainment. So I think that's actually been very helpful beyond the fact that you know they they actually learn the material much faster in adaptive learning apps than they do in a teacher-led classroom on the average. Um so they learn really fast. They learn their core skills really fast. And so most of what they're learning is I'll tell can I tell you a story to illustrate this? About a year ago, well, just shy of a year ago. So January of this year, Chambers was in her second or third, I'm getting all the years mixed up, but she she was she still hadn't really turned the corner of I'm gonna do like I could, I'm gonna set my goals, I'm gonna like choose, you know, she was doing it, but she hadn't really turned the corner. And one day after Christmas in January, she got in the car, I picked her up from school, and she said, Today was the worst day. This is her worst day ever. This is the worst day at school I've ever had. She was on the verge of tears, she was really upset. And I said, Oh my gosh, Amherst, what happened? Like, what happened at school? And she said, I got X's on both my goals today. And I had to like so she set the goals and she gave herself the X's. She's eight years old, right? And so that's like when it comes to kind of the IQ thing, and we talk about EQ in a second, but when it comes to kind of like the actual learning of the material, what is more important to me as a father is that she is it that she can, I don't even know what, recite capitals of states or like uh whatever whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

I couldn't tell you when the war of 1812 was.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Right, exactly, right? Like, probably not 1812. But like, you know, she she set these goals for the day and she gave herself the X's at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Meaning she didn't achieve it.

EQ, Accountability, And The Studio Contract

SPEAKER_01 47:03

She didn't achieve it. And the reason that she was mad is because she knew that if she didn't achieve those daily goals, that she wasn't gonna get uh what she needed to get done in the week. And if she didn't get if she didn't get done what she needed to get done in the week, she wasn't gonna get uh this uh uh this badge or this milestone. And if she didn't get the badge or the milestone, she wasn't gonna be able to move up to the older studio before the end of the year. And like when that clicked for her, like I had this moment, and I was just like, man, if they can learn this stuff, like I mean, it took me a lot longer than eight years to learn how to you know project getting things done over time and achieving a goal and holding myself accountable and being willing to do that, you know. And they spend the whole first month of the year, they don't learn you know anything in terms of kind of like you know, rote knowledge in the first month. They they go through this like crazy emotional social challenge to write the studio contract together. They they go through this like month-long process of like creating all the rules that they're all gonna like follow. And they they collaboratively as a studio design the contract of all the rules that they're gonna commit to follow, that they're gonna commit to holding each other to follow for the course of the year, and then they all sign the contract in front of all the parents, right? Like, what are you learning through that? Like uh EQ, IQ, social relationships, you know, it's crazy. So anyway, we that's like you know, a long way of telling you about these kids, you know, is like I'm watching them, and what one of the things that they you know that they say at the school that I think is so true is something along the lines of like kids are just way more capable than you think they are. You know, 100% and they and they and they design these systems and walk the walk where the kids where they really push the kids to the limits um of of what they're capable of of doing. And it's it's awesome. It's awesome to see.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

Love it. I um since this is this has actually been such a fun conversation, uh Shelby, and one that I've interviewed 330 something mod dads, and we've never followed this format at all, which I could give two shits. And it's about being curious and showing up, and uh I've actually I've you've encouraged me to I want to go actually think about like what what adaptive learning apps are for parents and what are some things that I can maybe research. And maybe there's a younger dad, because I've actually interviewed some younger dads recently with just like had a one-year-old recently. Shout out to Paul Salter. And uh maybe maybe this episode hits him. Maybe there's another dad at home that says their kids are struggling in the public school, and they say, you know what? Shit, I didn't even know this was out there. I I've never even heard of the actin in my entire life until you said that. So um you've obviously I have older older kids are probably not gonna, you might you you'll want a 19-year-old going to an act in school with eight-year-olds, but that might be a good fit.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Well, I'll I'll a couple things. One is if anybody, you know, anyone you know or anybody who listens to this wants to talk about it and is interested in it, I'll jam on this stuff all day long. I think it's so fascinating. And it's definitely not right for every kid, you know. I think there are scenarios where it's not gonna work. For our kids, you know, the two that are there, it seems to be working so far. Um and I know a number of folks whose kids have gone to actin schools all the way through high school. And so anyway, happy to jam on and talk about it with anybody. You said something a second ago about adaptive learning apps for adults, right? And like I think you know where to go if you want to, if you want to learn French or whatever. Um the uh but the the thing that's been like the thing that I've done that's been most helpful for me as a parent, and I'm by no means like a model parent. I have many, there are many ways in which I need to improve and I'm still working to improve. Um but I did, I kind of start about two years ago, I kind of randomly found this article that was a book and kind of like sent me down this like rabbit hole of personal development. And I think that has been I know that that has been the most impactful work I've ever done in terms of not just growing and improving as a parent, but also improving as a partner and a spouse, um, and as an entrepreneur. And I don't know, I don't I don't know that there's an adaptive learning app for that. You know, you can use apps for meditation or whatever if you want to. Um, but just kind of finally turning a corner and saying, look, I'm gonna do the work. Like I'm gonna consistently work to improve myself. I finally started a meditation practice and where you know it's it's at least a minute a day, but it's every day. Yeah. You know, and um I've just I've just been working on that now for a couple of years, and I think that is the most impactful thing that really anyone can do if they want to be a better parent. Maybe there are tactics and hacks and you know, better schedules and prioritization, but ultimately it's like, what did I read this morning? It's like this thing about the garden. It's I'm just gonna read this because it's on the last page I was just reading. Gardeners, successful ones, build their soil. They don't passively accept the dirt they inherited, they amend it, they add organic matter and nutrients, they compost, they dig, they turn over. What kind of soil are you? What sort of soil are you building? Like, that's the bottom line for me.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I I'm I'm a I'm a curious uh lifelong learner myself. I think we we um my football coach in college he used to always say, You you know, you have a choice today, men, to get better, get worse. No one stays the same, make the choice. And he's true, it's true. I mean, I'm almost 50. I remember him telling me that when I was 18. I'm like, what are you talking about, dude? Shut up. It's hot out here. I'm tired. He was right. And if if you want, and there's a mindset, a thing called, you know, don't start, don't let the start stop you. Um, because it's easy to tell ourselves a story and be a victim, or we can say, you know what, F that. I'm gonna do it. And I'm gonna, and if you don't like, I always like exercise is a perfect example. Oh, I can't, I don't, I don't know how to run. Well, how about you do do do two push-ups today? Because it's more than you did yesterday. And then tomorrow, maybe try three. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Um, it's it's like ultimately, if you want a better relationship with anyone, your spouse, a better relationship with your kid or your kids, a better relationship with your co-founder, a better relationship with your work, your business. Like ultimately, you have to have a better relationship with yourself first. Self-care, 100%. You know, um, and you've motivated me to do at least two push-ups as soon as we get off this call.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

Dude, I'm not even gonna recognize you'd be like the hulkster just breaking out of that shirt. Okay, we're gonna wrap up here. If you if if how can people learn more about you and Snacker?

Parenting Better By Doing Inner Work

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Um, I'm on LinkedIn, it's where I share content. Um Snacker, you can go look at the website. If anybody wants to make video content, give it a try. It's pretty cool. Casey, we shipped a studio mode yesterday, so you can just like one-click button and it just oh, it's so cool. Like darkens your background, blurs your background, makes puts a light on you, and you can adjust the color of the light all like real-time AI while you're recording. It's pretty cool. Um, anyway, our our mission there is to enable people to share their wisdom and their experiences and their expertise with the world. And I've seen and I still see so many people who have so much to share and so much to share that can help other people, but they don't do it because of the friction of not looking good enough on camera or not knowing exactly what to say or having to edit their videos. Um, and we're adding features consistently ultimately to build this to the point where you can just ramble and then you instantly have an edited, awesome, ready to share video. So um that's why we're doing it, that's why I'm doing it. Um it's uh it's been really fun and it's been really cool to see our early users actually unlock this ability to start sharing their ideas that they that they otherwise wouldn't. So um that's what I'm working on. And I also started releasing music. I've been a I've been a songwriter for a long time and didn't um ever kind of have it together to record my music, and so I started releasing music, James Shelby Stevens, and give it a listen. What is it at? James Shelby Stevens. James Shelby Stevens.

SPEAKER_02 56:36

And where we where can we find that? Anywhere you listen to music, Spotify, Apple, you've got it. We'll we'll look it we'll look it up. We'll look it up and tag it, tag down in the show notes too, so people can um not only learn more about Snacker, learn more about your music. Um I want to also I want to link the uh act on schools too, so people want to we'll make it easy for them. So maybe after we get done recording, you can I can either find that or you can show me where to go.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

But yeah, I'll give you a link. There's I'll give you a link to the there's a there's a nonprofit based in Austin that oversees all of the schools. Not all the schools are nonprofits, although the one that our kids go to is. Um so I'll give you a link to that. I'll give you a link to the school that my kids go to because I think the blog, like the the two, the two women that run Ascent are really, really talented. Um so even if you're not in Austin or wouldn't consider going to that school, the stuff they create is is also really good. And then there's a book that Laura Sandifer um uh who started Acton Academy Network of Schools wrote about her experience starting at the school and the network of schools, and it is awesome. It's called Courage to Grow, but it's this fascinating intersection of passion and calling, calling to improve the world, entrepreneurship, um, design. Uh fascinating story about how they did this, and it's grown so fast. And I mean, 300 is a lot of schools. Um, I think it's maybe more, it might be 400 now. But anyway, that's another great resource when it comes to the school stuff.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

Wow, awesome. Um this has been a blast, man. I uh I could I could wrap you forever, but um I I gotta keep us both on schedule today. Um the last thing we always do, Shelby, is we go into what I call the lightning realm. This is where I show you the negative hits of taking too many hits in college, not bong hits, but football hits. Where I'm gonna ask you, these are just gonna be random that there's been zero prep. My goal is to get a giggle out of you. Your job is to answer them as quickly as you possibly can.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Okay, if I start coughing though, I'm either really coughing or just buying myself time. Okay. All right, true or false. You were Traddy the Trident in college.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

That is false. That is false. Um, if you were to run a marathon tomorrow, what would your time be?

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Much, much longer than it should.

SPEAKER_02 58:57

Okay. Um, favorite 80s comedy movie of all time is Big Lebowski made in the 80s. I think that's a 90s. That's a good movie.

SPEAKER_01 59:06

Okay, I'm gonna take it.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

Perfect. Okay. Um the one book, when people say, Oh, what's a good book to read? This is the book you always like to recommend.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

Can you can you narrow it down to like professional something, anything, or I gotta pick just one?

SPEAKER_02 59:20

Just one. Just anything that comes to mind.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Read Crossing the Unknown Sea by David White. Crossing the Unknown Sea, work as a pilgrimage of identity. Crossing the unknown sea. Okay. Um, last movie you watched was. What did I? I watched a movie with my kids. Uh Studio Jubilee movie about like a really weird little fish-looking thing. Ponyo, P-O-N-Y-O.

Snacker.ai Mission And New Features

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Okay. Favorite Christmas or holiday movie is? Oh, Christmas vacation for sure. Solid choice. Shutter's full. Um, if I was to come to your house for dinner tonight, what would we have for dinner?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

I would open the fridge and get a bunch of good ingredients out, put them on the counter, and see what I see see what I could create out of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

What do you think we'd make then? I'm intrigued.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Oh, I mean, it's different every night. Uh, what do we have in there right now? We have uh some chicken thighs, we have a salmon. Uh we order the same thing every week. And then I don't cook with recipes. I just go and I start pulling things out and start cooking. So um I I I honestly like I can't tell you. It just happens on the fly. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

It's like the mono story of cooking.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

I don't know. I find it very therapeutic and and very kind of like uh it's I I don't mind cooking with a recipe. Um, and anytime I bake, I have to use a recipe because I'm not I can't do that without a recipe. But um I find it to to be a way to get inflow and just really enjoy the process of cooking uh to do this. And uh and it's it's not terrible most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Um if there was to be a book written about your life, tell me the title.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

Like it's gonna be written right now, or it's like this is gonna happen, you know. It's like when do I when do I die?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:09

So I die right now, and a book gets written about just just we'll say a book that's summarized your life so far.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:15

Spending too much of my time doing things based on an image of myself that I think others see instead of what I really, really want to be doing and finally realizing that and hopefully changing before the bus actually hits me.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:32

That might be the longest book title in the history of the United States, which is we gotta massage it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

I mean, we gotta, you know, it's like we're gonna go with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

I can't even remember that one because it's so long, but now we're gonna now challenge you because you're now the casting director of this movie that Netflix is gonna make about this book, starring Shelby Stevens, but it can't be Shelby Stevens. You're the casting director, Shelby, and tell me who's gonna star you. Which Hollywood act Hollywood actors gonna make you and just look amazing? And who are you gonna pick to star you in this movie?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

I don't want to look just an I don't want to look amazing. I want it to be real. I want it to be like a fit. Yeah, I want it to be I want it to be real, right? Like who does that's kind of what I meant. Yeah, who does who does real really well? Um Tom Hanks does real really well. Um solid choice. He did. Did you listen to his interview with Rick Rubin?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:22

I mean, talking about a podcast. Um what a great podcast, but uh Tetrick Ramaton.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Um okay, I'll look it up.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

Yeah, he he interviewed, he interviewed Tom Hanks.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

Okay, uh, and then last question, the most important one. Tell me two words that would describe Rachel. Patient and beautiful. Boom, lightning rounds complete. Uh we both kind of giggled. Uh we had a blast. The hour flew by. I could literally, we could have this could have been a three-hour podcast if I had let it, but I can't because I'm gonna be getting a phone call any minute that I'm gonna take. And then I got full day meetings, but man, this has been a blast. And then we're we're talking tomorrow, everybody, because I'm gonna I'm gonna learn more about Snacker because I'm gonna be a uh beta slash alpha customer. That was not a Revenge of the Nerds reference either. But uh, shall we grateful for our time together, man? Appreciate you, and uh, I hope that a lot of people gain a lot of our gain something from our conversation because there's a lot of a lot of wisdom that that was dropped. So I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing your story, and I know it's gonna help out another dad or mom listening at home.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

Well, anybody that's willing to listen to this uh is someone that I'm willing to chat with if there's anything I can ever do to help them out or jam on something. So just uh just holler at me.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:36

Appreciate it, man. Have a good rest of your week and happy holidays.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

Thanks, you too.