What Happens When Dads Stop Fixing And Start Listening - Thomas Miller

What if leading at home wasn’t about fixing every problem, but about showing up with curiosity, clear standards, and follow-through you can keep? We sit down with Thomas Miller—therapist, coach, and host of the Four Peaks Parent podcast—to explore how dads can guide teens through injury, identity shifts, and big feelings without swinging to extremes.

Thomas shares the hard-won lessons that shaped his approach: art school beginnings, building programs for LGBTQ youth, and running a wilderness therapy team responsible for 62 high‑risk teens. Layer in profound personal loss and years of clinical work, and you get a grounded, no-nonsense playbook for family leadership. We unpack why “Do it right, do it once” is more than a motto, how to transform rehab into purpose, and why small, consistent wins beat grand speeches every time.

We get practical about mental health. Instead of chasing labels, Thomas returns to ADLs—sleep, movement, hygiene, purposeful work, connection—and Freud’s simple barometer: work, love, play, and laughter. He maps the two pitfalls he sees most often: parents who minimize obvious issues until a child “gets sicker” to be seen, and parents who pathologize every wobble. The middle path uses clear assessment, heart-centered language, and boundaries you’ll actually enforce. You’ll also hear how couples’ communication styles—head-on versus avoidant—leak into parenting, and what it takes to co-write a healthier family culture.

If you’re a dad juggling a demanding job, teen sports, and rising anxiety at home, this conversation hands you a framework: lead with curiosity, set standards you model, and let kids own outcomes. Less rescuing, more guiding. Less reacting, more discernment. Subscribe, share with a dad who needs it, and leave a review with the one standard you’re committing to this week.

Transcript

Welcome And Season Seven Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hi, I'm Riley.

Introducing Thomas Miller

SPEAKER_02 0:04

And I'm Ryder. And this is my dad's show. Hey everybody, it's Casey J. Cox with the quarterback Dadcast. Welcome to season seven. Can't wait for this season as there's a lot of great guests ahead. If you're new to this podcast, really it's simple. It's a podcast where we we interview dads, we learn about how they were raised, we learn about the life lessons that were important to them, we learn about the values that are important to them, and really we learn about how we can work hard to become a better quarterback or leader of our home. So let's sit back, relax, and listen to today's episode of the Quarterback Gatcast. Hey everybody, it is Casey J. Cox with the Quarterback Gatcast. We're in season seven, and uh as you know, we've had some fantastic guests on all different types of topics. We've had the the one and only Justice Duo, we've had the one and only Mike Holmgren, we've even brought another female uh into the podcast, the sixth one-only Kate Dr. Cape Long. That was a really, really fun episode. We're gonna stick with the theme of um providing um clinical and uh support for dads, but for families. And his next guest is someone I had the luxury of being on his podcast. His name is Thomas Miller. He's the host of the Four Peaks Parent podcast. He's for the last 20 plus years, he's been um really helping families, uh, youth, adolescent navigate mental health challenges, addiction, um, life coaching, um uh family coaching, um, just doing a lot of gorilla, really great work. Uh he's based in the lovely state of Massachusetts, where I go every summer. But with all that said, everybody, as much as that sounds really, really cool, that's not exactly why we're gonna have Thomas on. We're having Thomas on learn about him, the dad, and how he's working hard to become that ultimate quarterback or leader of his household. So without further ado, Mr. Miller, welcome to the quarterback dad cast. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

And uh, you did a really good job on that intro.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

And first take.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Yeah, honored to be here. Honored to be here and and uh ready, ready to dive in.

Gratitude And Hard Parenting Moments

SPEAKER_02 1:59

There we go. Well, we always start out each episode gratitude. So tell me, what are you most grateful for as a dad today?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Oh, today I'm I'm grateful uh for my kids and my wife, even though uh I won't get too deep into it. But there was uh a challenging parenting moment last night in the Miller household. So it is the hardest job in the world. And I'm grateful uh for my kids for so many things. They actually helped me um did most of it actually ice our driveway this morning, or de-ice, I should say. Um so really grateful for that. Just grateful for how they're becoming uh mini adults or young adults. Crazy. I have a 13-year-old and a 15-year-old. It's crazy, crazy how that quick that happens. And grateful for my wife who forces me to slow down, which I struggle with mightily. Um, so yeah, yeah.

Injury, Identity, And Resilience

SPEAKER_02 2:53

There we go. Well, as you've heard, everybody, if you follow this podcast, I've been talking about my my one and only Riley, my daughter, who's going through a tough time. Um, and again, the more I think you talk about things in life, that's that's how I deal with things, versus keeping them all wound up, which creates more anxiety in the body. I like asking for help and talking um just because it helps. And so um my daughter, unfortunately, as you know, she had a significant knee injury, so we're we're going through that right now. But I'm grateful that A, I've been through an injury in high school 30 something years ago. So I know that I've been put in the spot for a reason to help help her guide through those tough times. I'm also grateful for my son, who's freaking shown amazing leadership and mentorship and these like one-line wisdom, you know, things he's he's saying to her and to us. And um, he's almost becoming like this like sounding board or just this this calming voice. And I'm just like, dude, who who are you? Where'd this kid come from? Oh, oh yeah, me and my wife created him. So it's uh it's been really, really fun to see his maturity and just him be able to say, you know, dad, we got this, you know, and reaching out to his sister and just and saying hi. So I'm grateful for the strong bond our our family has. And because we're gonna need it because it's gonna be a it's gonna be a tough year ahead as uh Riley goes through this rehab. But um one of my favorite quotes is Tough times won't last, but tough people do. And uh I just keep saying that to myself and to her, and just um even today I made I made her lunch, which I never do, but since she's in crutches, I made her lunch, and just like I did like back in third grade, I'd write a little note on the lunch bag. Just said, Love you, have a great day, love dad.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

You know, so I hope she reads it and either smiles and makes fun of you to her friends or smiles and says, Man, I appreciate my dad. Mm-hmm. So all right, back to you now. So you got a 13 to 15 year old, but bring us inside the Miller Huddle, talk about how you and your wife met, and then a little bit about each uh member of the squad.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Cool. Can I can I say one quick thing about what you're going through with the the um so one of the things um that I love that you said is that you're viewing right this as an opportunity, and obviously it's a hard one because of the timing of it and the fact that you went through it, right, is certainly gonna give you a lot of um you know commonalities and common ground. I think there's also a neat thing for her. I'm not trying to play armchair therapist here at all, but she gets to she gets to not only over-identify with her sport, which is actually something we all do. I'm an athlete. Um, my kids are athletes, and there's a lot of research, like we're defying um so much of the research I know because my kids are basically one sport players. Both my kids play at a really high level of soccer. Um, my youngest does violin as well. So there's something neat here, too, in that kind of helping herself to not over-identify with the brand of right said thing. And so she'll have a really cool identity formation process in here too. Challenging to leave said identity. And I know I get funky when I'm not able to move and use my body. Like wherever my body goes, there goes my mood and my my brain health for the most part. So I get that. Not in any way uh trying to put rose-colored glasses on over what this uh journey is gonna look like. But there is something cool um in there in terms of branching out and really kind of well, you're you're you're right, Thomas.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

It's like, I mean, this is what the when I I did CrossFit in my 30s, this is what CrossFit taught me. Yeah, um, I don't do CrossFit anymore, I do old man exercise just so I don't get fat and don't get hurt. Yeah. Um but CrossFit taught me, hey, if my legs, my hamstrings hurt, well, my arms aren't. Yep. My app my abs aren't, my core's not. Yep. And I told Riley, we we talked, was like, listen, this sucks. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna try to sugarcoat it. It freaking sucks. But you can still dribble. Um, you can still you can still do arm strength. You can still um once we get surgery, you can there's a lot of things you can do. Yeah, um, you're gonna go through PT. And when we go through PT, I was joking with her last night. I said, you know what, Riley? We're gonna make your knee your bitch. We're gonna treat you like your little bitch. And we were and she started laughing. I go, how you play defense and how you go after life, that's gonna you're gonna go after your knee the same way. And this knee does not know what she got coming for her, girl.

Meeting His Wife And Early Careers

Wilderness Therapy And Grit

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Oh, totally. I I it's funny. So I had five uh shoulder operations. Um February would this February coming up would be three years ago, and I am performing at a such a higher level than I was for the 10 years prior. It was uh rotator cuff, labrum, separated shoulder, um, oh my god, what else? Bicep, tendon, and uh bone spurs. And um, I was joking with the surgeon, like, I'm the worst patient at being patient, but I'm the best patient in PT. And all the PT people were like, you know, loved me because I would be doing, you know, almost to the point they had to slow me down and, you know, force me to gather moss. But yeah, once she's in the PT mode, she's gonna attack the hell out of that. She's gonna be, oh my God, amazing. So to answer your question, yeah, back on. Um, I met my wife in art school of all places in 1998 on Long Island Um University. I'm from Long Island, so I get to make those jokes. Um, I was going to LIU, Long Island University, on a soccer scholarship and as a photo major. And she was, what was she? I guess she was a painter at the time, um, a painting major. So we met freshman year. Um, you want the whole deal, like up until up until now, pretty much? Yeah, not like a seven-hour presentation. Okay, just like how'd you meet in? Yeah, so we met in college, and um, our story is pretty cool because it's a hell of a lot of uh leaning in, throwing the chips to the wind, trying new things. When we moved to Westchester outside New York City, um, it was really kind of a fun race of who got employed first. So we were casting a wide net across New Jersey, Long Island, Connecticut, um, any wherever. And she she began her teaching journey at North Salem, which is in Westchester. Um, and then I was working for an LGBT program, a program that supported gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender kids, even though I'm a white, straight male, and that's a whole other story we can get into, which is great. Um, and building uh a really wonderful program. And then, this is just important, I won't give you the seven-hour just uh dissertation, but was recruited to uh be the clinical director of a wilderness therapy program in the Adirondack. So you had a Westchester gal who's from uh Pelham, New York, and a Long Island boy move up to the Adirondacks, um, where it is one of the coldest places in the lower 48. And our house was at 2100 feet, and we were like chopping wood and negative 40 winters, and it really opened us up and can open us to find this really deep um love of adventure, experiential learning, uh, just badassery and grit and resiliency. And we had our first um uh child, uh, our oldest up there, and on his birthday, uh April 28th, it snowed. So put that in your brain. Um about about lately, even snowed August 16th one year. No crap. Um, yeah. So we have two kids, uh, 15 and a 13-year-old, and we're in the North Shore of Boston now. Love it. Uh I I've been so you've been so how long you been married then? Well, so we've been together since 1998, dating-wise, but married 2004. Um, so coming up on it's uh sounds super cheesy, but February 14th coming up on uh what is that now? Oh my god, 22 years. It's less about Valentine's Day. She is a teacher now, was a teacher then. And so the day after uh Valentine's Day was like the mid the midwinter recess break. Um, and so that's when we were able to you know lean into that and jump jump into a honeymoon. So uh if I if I screw up and forget our anniversary on Valentine's Day, I am in major, major doghouse. Uh so it's it's is it's it's a good thing for the executive functioning.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

There you go. That's a tough one to forget. Well, ironically, that's my wife's birthday. Oh, is it? Nice. She's a Valentine's Day baby. Yeah, that's super cool. Well, we've we've been together for a long time too. We've been married 27 years. We met, actually met in seventh grade. Nice. Crazy. Nice. Okay, so you got two soccer studs. Um, tell me a little bit about them.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

So, yeah, I mean, they're uh very so different, as uh it's it's always amazing. You know, I've been coaching parents and working with um teens and tweens and young adults forever since oh my god, 2000. And you know, you always hear the adages about no child grows up in the same home or every child is different and super different. So one kiddo, super experiential learner, uh big into building terrariums, violin, uh, you name it, um, outdoors. Uh growing up, we never ever had shampoo or conditioner because he was making potions, like literally every everything would be gone. Like we have no lotion, we'd have no this, no that. He was always, always cooking up something that um uh half the time was probably toxic. But um, and then we have another guy who's uh kind of more a little into the city, into fashion, into you know, um uh both avid, avid, avid soccer players, uh similar positions on the pitch, a little different, uh, one more offensive, one more little bit more defensive. Um, but yeah, that's a crazy world. We could dive into that too, like the pay-for-play system, the the elite, elite, right? All those stupid words, um, club sports and how you manage, right? The masochism of that and creating family wellness and making your yeses be yes and your no's be no, and having a clear why. But um, they're they're there are great kids and they are definitely finding their voices, which is something um I'm really pleased about. I'm the biggest fan of the separation and individuation phase, right? Helping your kiddos become themselves. And yet it's also amazing how uh, of course, um been coaching parents forever, and then yet now you're in the the midst of it and trying not to bite, you know. And how do you solicit healthy debating and negotiation versus right complete defiance and oppositionality? And how do you fly at the right altitude? So struggling every day, winning every day, losing every day, all rolled into one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

It's a journey, brother. It is a journey. Um okay, I want to go back now and learn about you. And um, so talk about what was life like growing up for you and and the impact mom and dad had on you now that you're a dad.

Kids, Soccer, And Family Culture

How Childhood Shapes Parenting

Dad’s Union Work And Loss

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Big, big. So I mean, and I can jump into kind of like couples dynamics with my wife. My wife and I have been in uh couples therapy three different times, I think off the top of my head. Uh, maybe a fourth, all positive experiences, a huge fan. And the reason for that, and I'm answering your question here, is I come from a very working class background, incredible, incredibly, you know, um two, three jobs type scenario come coming up, would never ever say I was poor at all. Um, but uh we did not go out to dinner. We did not, you know, it was it was uh it was definitely paycheck to paycheck at times. And um tons of amazing grit, resiliency, financial literacy um there. Um learned a lot about just you know hard work and um suffering in a good way, like how to suffer. Um, tons of servant leadership in there. Um there's so many things my parents did better than I do. There's so many things, of course, I do better than them. But what I really have had a really great um secure attachment. Um, that's like kind of a little psychobabble, but really had a secure relationship with them that's super helpful and is the building blocks of almost like anything, right, for a human being. I didn't thankfully um have to, you know, walk into my home and worry about, you know, it was there alcoholism, is there, you know, uh screaming, yelling, dysfunctionality. There's definitely, you know, my mom um and I are similar, we're both uh my mom's Sicilian. So it's definitely uh a lot of uh a lot of emotions, a lot of passion. Um and I look back at some of those fights as definitely unhealthy storms and unhealthy conflict, and then also healthy storms, which has actually made me do what I do. Like I'm the calmest person in the room when this family is in my office or virtually is devolving into like dysfunctionality and struggling to communicate from a heart-centered level, or just, you know, not personalize things. And then yet, of course, I bring that high passion, that high, high emotional tone to the marriage and to the family. And there's a gift there. There's also a dosage issue that sometimes I overdose on. My wife is the opposite, more a traditional wasp family kind of uh when you think of conflict, more ostrich, put the head in the sand dynamic where my family is address it head on, hit it, you know. Um everything's not a nail, but uh, you know, it's like definitely address these things. So those that's been interesting as we've co-written our culture and we have succeeded in so many areas building something new, but then also, right, it's called uh relapse, right, or regression or recapitulation, really want to use some psychobabble to an earlier dyad or triad, meaning you fall back into these family of origin norms. And so we struggle at times, my wife and I, of kind of emerging out of right, her childhood, my childhood. And that's kind of the fun stuff, if you think about it. Like when you're I'm working with a family, I'm always like, okay, like, you know, how is conflict handled in your household, or you know, how is communication handled, or can you, could you come forward with your needs, wants, you know, et cetera, or did you have to stuff that? So it's it's always so obvious for me professionally, of course, to see where the childhood norms are showing up and kicking, you know, this family in the face and and keeping them as a barrier from progressing and moving forward. And then here I am, right, at times um recreating my childhood and in other areas. My wife and I, like I said, have built something really beautiful that has thankfully a little bit less um, I don't know, emotionality, intensity uh from her family, but then also she's learning to be a bit more assertive, have agency, directness, et cetera. But yeah, I can't complain. Good stuff, really good stuff, a lot of old school stuff in there, um, not as nuanced as what I'm trying to bring to the table. Tell me about what did dad do. Dad was a roofer. Um, and dad is super cool, mom's super cool too, but dad's super cool because dad did a way better job. Um, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm not a big work-life balance guy, big work life integration guy, but my dad did an amazing job of modeling how to stop and how to be off. And dad was present. Um, dad was cooked. I don't know how he did what he did. I mean, roofing, you know, he worked in Long Island and New York City. So you're talking 60 stories, 50 stories, 30 stories up on a black tar roof back in the day. And um yeah, brutal coming home looking literally like a lobster red. Um the bro didn't tan too well. Um, and like I remember him peeling pieces of tar off, you know, his skin. Um, and always the smell of gojo um sometimes makes me cry if I ever smell it. It's I don't know if you know what that is, but it's uh it's um this soap that working people use that gets like tar off. It's hype very um uh slippery. And um, I actually started crying the other day at Home Depot because I I saw it and um and uh it's amazing the old factory senses, how you know memories are so connected there. Um my dad became the vice president, the president of his union. Unfortunately, my dad passed uh in a tragic roofing accident um after retirement. Really, really rough uh chapter. Uh roof roof collapsed um on a job that he was just just a part of for basically doing kind of estimates and things of that nature um in a quasi-you know return back to work. So how old was he? He was young. I was 2008, so he was uh 59, I was 28. So it was rough. My grandmother and him, his mother died in the same week. So um that was a very challenging period in 2008, because in 2008 we moved to uh Lake Placid from Westchester, and I had a Cush private practice, literally no shit, in a town called Pleasantville. So there I was um with a burgeoning private practice running that LGBT program. Of course, I'm a servant leader, so it was a we, not an I. Uh, had an amazing team of folks of uh volunteers and staff who were helping to support 300 some odd um LGBT kids that were coming through our doors every year. And then took the leap, went up to Lake Placid. Uh, we moved about June, and then wilderness therapy is one of the most intense modalities there is. So you have 62 of the highest risk kids in the world that are your responsibility. And of course, I had an amazing team, and um and um it's very challenging, right, to keep kids safe in a very challenging wilderness environment with kids that don't want to be there. And then within milliseconds of arriving into that position and the Adirondacks being so outside my comfort zones, my um grandmother died uh of cancer, his mother on a Tuesday. Uh and then a Tuesday later is when the roof collapsed. And then a Tuesday later than that, my wife had to go finish her last year of grad school at New Polts. So I was alone by myself, having just lost three of probably the close. To the most important people in my life. So, and then trying to be present for myself and the kids, uh, the the the program clients and uh support my team. So that was that was a really tough uh moment or chapter in my life, 2008 for sure. That was a tough yeah. Now is mom still with us? Yep, thank God. Yep. Mom is uh a one-woman army, she's badass. Um you got the classic from Queens, classic um oldest of the family, played a quasi-surrogate, you know, parenting role in her family of origin, um, younger siblings, um, Italian culture there, um, and yet still managed to later on in life get a master's degree in education, really broke through bazillion glass ceilings as a as a woman coming out of uh, you know, that time and that kind of very traditional old school family culture. Um, mom is awesome. We're identical, we look similar, we act similar. Um, some of our conflicts have to do with how much we are exactly the same. My mom uh had a little bit of an edge, uh, you know, in kind of I wish she was a little softer. I guess my kids, not I guess, I know my kids would say the same thing at times with me. I'm I I I have the whole grit David Goggins thing down really well and never ever raise um kind of entitled uh kiddos. And I'm a therapist who can be incredibly heart centered and vulnerable, and yet there's moments I hear myself sounding like my mom, and uh and I love her and she's amazing. And um, depth, depth, depth of love equal to the Marianna's trench and uh will show up for you at any time, anywhere. So, but yeah, definitely, definitely a no-nonsense, you know, kind of uh matriarch of the family.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

So you mentioned grit resilience. Um, I think I remember you saying financial literacy. Um talk about um, you know, those values that you were um taught, and maybe uh uh there's a story that that really kind of brings it, brings it home for us.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Yeah. I mean, so like my dad, and this is not a political rant here, I'm about for or against unions, um, but my father was a union member, and so you didn't cross the picket line. Um, you know, that's how the unions roll, right? Is if there's um uh supposed to be a union job and it goes non-union and and there's a whole thing there. Um and so there was nine months of you know, my dad not working, and that was very challenging when he was the breadwinner and then maybe co-breadwinner at times with my mom. You know, nine months of not crossing a picket line based on integrity uh was rough. Um, you know, and those that's just one little story of kind of that idea of principles really driving the bus and character and financial literacy, like in the sense of, you know, they didn't teach me how to grow money. Um, that's something I'm learning. I wish I had known sooner, right? Is how do you how do you 10x, right? And that's why I'm an entrepreneur and I'm kind of like an alien in the family. My sister is uh is uh a union teacher as well. My mom was um worked at college uh financial aid and was a professor. My dad was in the union, so I'm the the only like ADHD-ish, entrepreneur-ish, right? Or not entrepreneur-ish, entrepreneur. Um, but very, very good about like you save, um, you don't live below above your your lifestyle. Really, really good brake pedal, um, really good on the delay and gratification and trusting the process and just work solves things, you know. Do it right, do it once. That was a big thing for my dad. Um, I had to sweep the floor and know how to sweep the floor really well. Um, and I say that a lot to my kids. If you could sweep a floor, right, that's that's a starting point. And everybody has has a floor to sweep, everybody has a broom that they need to hold and carry. And so if you can't sweep the floor, you really can't progress right onto the mastery level. So every weekend there was um tons of chores. Um, I remember when my wife first started dating. You know, she came over and she found like co-joining me in chores almost like fun because she's an only child and came from a much more uh privileged background than I did. So it was like, oh, cool, like trimming the hedges is kind of fun. I'm like, no, no, no, this is not fun. You know, um, this is a true story. My mom used to make uh me sweep the street. Um, we don't know why to this day, but I had to literally sweep all the dirt and dust, right? That would come into the street. And then we'd always have to take a flat shovel, not a spade, and then put it into paper bags. I would always invariably rip why paper bags. I think back on this, like, you know, even when you did three, four paper bags, it just it was like complete Mr. Miyagi. Like, what are we doing? Sweeping the street to this day. You ever ask her? Oh, yeah, a million times. She's like, I'd have no idea. You know, she just like she literally, like, literally, like, like she just didn't like the way it looked, you know, from an aesthetic standpoint, like the dirt, you know, it's like Long Island, it's a beach. So, and they didn't have the money to buy, like, you know, a really beautiful curb or something or stones. So it was just every year, you know, incessant sweeping the street. But it was a complete Mr. Miyagi thing. And I've asked my kids to do not sweep the street, uh, but you know, some dumb shit, if you will. But there's there's something in it, right? There's maybe she needed a break for me. I don't know. But um, yeah, a lot of that, a lot of that, a lot of really good stuff.

Do It Right, Do It Once

SPEAKER_02 27:52

I love the phrase, do it right, do it once. Yeah. Um, that is that is that is fantastic advice that hopefully dads can can take from this episode. I mean, I think about thinking about something like mowing the lawn. Like sometimes like we we have a uh I remember well we we vacation on out near you in the summer place called Cuddy Hunk off the coast of New Bedford. And um it's a remote island, and uh sometimes there's uh like a there's kids that you get like not the best lawn service. So sorry, shout out to those kids. But it just I mean, I and I look at it, I'm like, there's like a strip and there's grass clippings everywhere. Like that's not how you do it, guys. And I remember if I I remember and I was like had to give a give them a little bit of grace, like it's it's not the same, but I'm like, but why it couldn't it be the same? Like it's still a job and you did a shitty job, yeah. And I know that if I had mowed my lawn, my dad'd be like, What the hell's that? Right, and I yeah, I did I never said it do it right, do it once, but I'm gonna steal that and because I think it's awesome. Yeah, and I was as you're saying I looked out to my left where my son came home from college last summer. The first thing I did before he went and played golf, I said, Hey, you're gonna go weed eat this spot. I go, and make sure that I don't when I come out there, bud, I'm not gonna have to say, Hey, did you get the spot? And this is an opportunity for and I was like, and when they do it right, God, well, it's so gratifying for us as the parent, but also for them because they we got they they got dad's approval, but they did a good job. And they it's pride. Yeah, exactly.

Mental Health Basics And ADLs

SPEAKER_01 29:21

And it's like it's what you're talking about with those kids. Uh, shout out to no, I'm just kidding. I don't know. It's like, do not ever buy uh blah, blah, blah, landscaping crew. Um, but how they do anything is how they do everything. It's totally true. And the standards, it really kills me. Uh, standards now. And then I could jump into mental health, which is very interesting because I'm a licensed independent clinical social worker. I've been doing this uh licensed since 2002. I mean, my first internship was in 1999, you know, bachelor's, master's, the whole deal, went to NYU, all that fun stuff. And I can talk clinical shop with the best of them. I can psychobabble the hell out of anybody. I've keynoted 800 something, you know, conferences. And um the word mental health, so much of mental health, when you look at it, has to do with ADLs, which stands for activities of daily living. And if you are not showering, if you are not sleeping, if you are not exercising, if you are not doing something of industry, you're gonna have mental health. So so many of the families I work with have a young adult who's failing to launch. It can be a uh a female as well, um, but the preponderance right now are males who are failing to launch. And you think of even way back when uh Freud used to say, you know, someone's healthy if they can work, laugh, play, and different versions, love, or you could say the F-bomb. Um, but if someone can work, laugh, play, and love, that means they have the ability to build connections, the love, right? That's friendship, that's intimacy. Intimacy is is not about sex. Intimacy is bound in every relationship, right? It's a it's an ingredient, it's a building block. If you're working, you have a sense of purpose and pride, right? If you're laughing, you don't have depression. You have what's called a full range of affect, affect meaning your emotions and your feeling states. Um, you know, and can you play? Play could be anything from literally playing to playing soccer, to playing football, to playing badminton, playing pickleball. So, you know, just it it kills me now. A lot of the conversations have gone on mental health, is that there's so many just fundamental basics that again, the person who's mailing it in on mowing the lawn, am I saying they have clinical depression? No. Am I saying they're bipolar? No, right. But the point is that if that person, not to an obsessive perfectionistic standpoint, because I do believe, you know, done is perfect, and done doesn't mean perfect, but it means really good or good enough. But again, think about that. Like you, it's it it's be it is big. It is big. It's important you make the small things big, not minutiae, but that you make them big and you have a clear why. You know, why are why is this big that the floor is swept good enough, right? Or or really good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Hello, everybody. My name's Craig Co., and I'm the senior vice president of relationship management for Beeline. For more than 20 years, we've been helping Fortune 1000 companies drive a competitive advantage with their external workforce. In fact, Beeline's history of first-to-market innovations has become today's industry standards. I get asked all the time, what did Casey do for your organization? And I say this, it's simple. The guy Flat Out gets it, relationships matter. His down-to-earth presentation, his real-world experience apply to every area of our business. In fact, his book, Win the Relationship and Not the Deal, has become required reading for all new members of the Global Relationship Management Team. If you'd like to know more about me or about Beeline, please reach out to me on LinkedIn. And if you don't know Casey Jacks, go to KCJcox.com and learn more about how he can help your organization. Now, let's get back to today's episode.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Before I before I dive into um, I want to because I want to go back to what you mentioned about you know supporting kids from the um the lesbian gay. I think it's really, really cool. And I want to I want to learn more about that. But you you mentioned bipolar. Bipolar hit has hit my family. Unfortunately, my dad passed December 29th, 2021.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

Um so sorry to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Yeah, thank you. It was a rough, rough journey. Um, and he he at one he saw he suffered from a lot of stuff. Um but like if from your perspective, not taking us down too long of a side road here, but just maybe in a quick your quick thoughts. How how often do you see families or dads with kids like, is it quick to say, I mean, they're having a tough day, oh you're bipolar? Or is it is it is it one of those ones where you can you can get like put in that box too soon and then you're stuck, or is it one of those ones where hey, people are just wired that way and meds can help us get out?

Bipolar, Diagnosis, And Extremes

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Or that's a that's a great question, and it's a massive question, but I'll give you I'll give you what happens. Um, no, no, it's a great question. First off, so sorry um to hear about your father and thank you for for being vulnerable enough to talk about right mental health, because what happens is there's like two camps. Um, the other a couple of weeks ago, I had a discovery call with a family who is at a traditional boarding school, and their young adult is clearly struggling with mental health issues. So, what happens is when I have discovery calls with families, because I've been doing this forever. Um, and again, I've been a founder of multiple um, you know, companies and have been an executive. I was the family wellness director at an elite addiction treatment center. Um, I've been the director of the Center for Hope and the Den for Grieving Kids and so on and so forth, and founded my own um with my wife um mental health center. Our job clinically as an L I CSW or a licensed psychologist or a licensed uh, or of course a psychiatrist, is to diagnose clients and to do so actually per insurance, uh, which I don't take insurance anymore, but per insurance for for 20 years, I had to give a diagnosis on the first session. That doesn't mean that diagnosis is the diagnosis of discharge, but all I'm trying to say is that our job is to be a diagnostician. So when families do these discovery calls, sometimes like, oh, they're just quirky. Oh, they're just this. It's like, well, based on what you're describing, no, they actually meet criteria for this or that diagnosis. So there are families, I'm answering your question to say, there are families that unfortunately minimize and force their young adult to have to metastasize symptomology. There's the other way, which you described, there are families way too quick, right, to fall in love with the pill or fall in love, right, with the externalization of their son or daughter. So it's really those two extremes that I'm always dealing with, where I have people that are trying to run interference on a really good clinical diagnosis that I'm hearing anecdotally or trying to guide them. So this person should not be in this traditional boarding school. And they have an opportunity to continue to do incredibly well at a therapeutic boarding school. That family's not ready, unfortunately, for that information. That's okay. They're they're flying really low and they're casting a wide shadow over their son. So they're not able to see him. And unfortunately, they're going to create a metastasation process where he has to get sicker until they're finally ready to meet him, which is sad. On the flip side, there's families I work with who unfortunately pathologize their children, right? Everything is anxiety-based. Casey, I can't tell you how many times on a discovery call I hear, well, COVID was really hard on Johnny or Susie or whatever. And I'm always like, uh, COVID was how many years ago? You know, like, why are we still talking about COVID? Let's talk about today. Let's talk about what we can control. What could we do this afternoon, this morning, or this evening, or move things forward? So it's sort of both. And in terms of with your dad, um, you know, I'm sure that created, this is not your session, if you will, but sure that created roles that you've taken on and right, you had a competition. Well, I was a dad.

SPEAKER_04 37:18

Yeah, of course. I was a parent for a while. Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

So you got what's called parentified. Yeah. It's called parentification parentification. So you had to right uh step up. And there's goods and bads. And uh one thing in there, we could talk in 20 years, but it's important for you to make sure you could do some succession planning because what happens for a lot of the parentified, the child of alcoholic, the child of the mental health, um, you know, very heavy mental health parent, is they become the director of HR, right? They become the fire chief, they become the police officer, they become right, the helper, the here, the therapist. Um, and then it's very hard for them to step out of those roles because they're so used to right supporting everybody and keeping everything organized, right? Um I think, I think, uh, I think you've already made that shift. It's very obvious because in the conversation I had with you on my pod and even now and how you present. And I love your story of like being this super high performer sales guy, and then realizing like you had externalized roles, right? To even be more high functioning. And in a way, that probably broke a little bit of that patternistic. I hope so.

unknown 38:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

No, it totally did. I mean, think about it. Don't you see how you could have been rather stuck and entrenched in the like, I'm gonna hold on? And I see that a lot. I see that a lot with um, I have a lot of, of course, high performing, incredibly, you know, high net worth individual families or or just barons of industry, mom or dad, or both. I have this woman started working with, she's a CFO of two companies. I'm like, all right, how do you even do that? And she has like a 16-year-old daughter that definitely is popping with what looks like an eating disorder. And so it's amazing to me how you have these people who are so high performing, so high functioning, and yet struggling so mightily to see some of the most basic things that are kind of blooming in their system.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Yeah, they're not, they're not meeting people where they are, and it's too right. It's um, yeah, and that's that's a whole nother long, long.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

But it but it's to answer your question, it's it's it's those two extremes that I get where it's again a minimization model, and then unfortunately the child has to prove how sick they are, or it's a pathologist pathologizing and the child actually has to like fight right to get out. Does that make sense? Totally. There's definitely middle in there too, but I see those extremes a lot.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Interesting, cool. That that was helpful. Um I when I when I um well without I won't I won't disvolge it because it's personal information for someone else, but like I I'm curious, how did you what what drew you to the work um to to help support kids of you know the LGBTQ?

Why He Served LGBTQ Youth

SPEAKER_01 40:01

That one's easy. That one I I could give you a super direct line. Um, so I was um I went to uh again from Long Island. So I'm from a very working class neighborhood, and everybody was in the trades, and that was like back in the day when the trades weren't so cool. The trades are super cool. Uh they've always been cool, in my opinion. But uh everyone was a towny, right? And you didn't leave. And there I was very good at soccer, and but I was taking the train an hour and 22 minutes from Ron Concoma. Shout out to Ron Concoma train station, if anyone's listening knows where that is. Um, I would take the the train to the Ville, Greenwich Village, and I was like in the freaks and geeks, like Stranger Things. I watched Stranger Things and I was like, oh my God, if only there was, you know, that group. And I wasn't into DD, I never played DD, but I was more into like the artsy fartsy little bit of uh whatever freaks and geeks world. And so in my school, you either had to be a jock or basically a faggot, like no crap. There was nothing in between in the middle. So I always joke like David Beckham uh came way too late for me because he was dubbed like a metro sexual, because like he was into fashion and he like expanded the man box of like what we could be. And in European men, particularly footballers, footballers, and soccer players, they're always been like pretty, you know, they've always been like fashionistas and everything. So I was into like fashion and art. So I was perceived to be basic, I was dubbed the fag, if you will, right? Uh I unfortunately had to endure a lot of homophobia in my come up in high school. So that's an easy answer for you, um, is that I did not do great academically because I was looking over my shoulder. But the the cool thing about that, I will say, similar to your injury and how I always view everything as an opportunity, is at three o'clock, I slide tackle a mother effer. Um I am small, I am only 5'9. I played what was called stopper or sweeper, which that's now called CDM, central defensive mid, or um, it's called center back. So I, in a compensatory fashion, was taking all of this anger, frustration, put down and sublimating. That's a healthy uh uh sublimation is taking something and changing its form, right? Think of that in science. So in psychobabble terms, sublimation is taking something that's societally inappropriate and then putting it in a way that is actually usable. So I was destroying people and then was playing like even I was on when I was 16, I was on an under 23 men's team. So I was playing with men, you know, and then when I went to college, I was only 17 at the time, because at that time LAU was D2, they're now D1. And you could be any age. So we had the captain of our team was 30 years old and had two kids, no joke. And we had a guy who was from Gambia who had um one wife, and we had a guy from Senegal who had two who used to make fun of the guy who had only one wife as being like poor. And I was 17, soaking what, 156 pounds, turned 18 on September 24th. None of this, you know, uh post-grad crap. My family again had no money to do the PG year and all that stuff. And so I've always had to like fight above or punch above, you know, my weight class. So, so when I had this opportunity to work for this program called Center Lane, um, which the first year we had a gay prom, there's still only seven kids. And when I left, it was again a we, everything's a we, not an I. Um, we had 350 kids go to the gay prom. And um we began um giving awards to like superintendents that were recognizing that hey, maybe we should make sure every student in this student school has a right to learn. Um, so then we started all this cool stuff, and like little by little, all These superintendents and school systems started realizing like GPA actually is connected to school climate. We were making that case and helping them. And it was just really such a huge part of my early social work career. So I really love shout out to Center Lane, their program of Westchester Jewish Community Services, which is a very large, amazing not-for-profit. And then we even started a program in Yonkers. Yonkers is a big city right outside Westchester that served primarily LGBT youth of color. And that was great to be at the time a white, straight, and I was even a youth minister of a Methodist church who was picking up queer youth of color primarily in a van at Yonkers train station, getting them to the space that we were able to get. And that's just that's really what life is about. Like I had families that were bordering on threatening to kill me. No joke, some of them, because they viewed this from a cultural standpoint or homophobic standpoint as a choice. And they had their own journey. And then they were able to really understand that we were providing safety for their kids to become an integrated whole version of themselves. And his mom, I'll tell you a quick story, who really gave me a hard time when she first found out where her son was going after school, which is such a protective factor in a safe space. And we had great staff. She gave me an earful and threatened all kinds of things. But then when I left five years later, she made me this biggest tray of food and had this most amazing goodbye thing for me. So there's such, there's such opportunity vis-a-vis conflict. And I think that's what kills me about, I'd say therapy right now. I feel like it's gotten very sanitized and almost has moved toward, um, I call it almost too embryonic, where it's almost too safe. Um, and I think just even relationally, in terms of where we are as a society with everything being canceled culture, we have a really hard time managing conflict and difference. And I always say if we could just form, storm, then we'd get to the new norm, then we'd get to the perform. But people struggle in the storming. You know, they really have a hard time of hanging in there, right? And being all to listen and be curious. And I love your Ted. Ted, right? Tell me, explain, describe.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I use that all the time with my kids.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

It's a great way to, yeah, it's a great way to ask questions. I I got taught that at age 41, and now I send the elevator back down and share with others. And I think it's a great way to communicate and learn about people. Um Thomas, if you think of an area of your dad game that might not be where you want it, um, that it maybe is an area of of opportunity and growth. Um, you know, mine, I struggle with patience at times, but I swear interviewing having this podcast now for gone seven years, my patience has gotten so much better. Yeah. Because I talk about it often.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

How about how about for you? Tell me what's an area of your dad game, you're working hard to get better.

Conflict, Storming, And Real Safety

SPEAKER_01 47:02

I will answer that in one second. And uh to Mr. Rogers said, I think it's Mr. Rogers, uh, to name it is to claim it. And um, so the fact that you're speaking about your impatience or or lack thereof at times, you're becoming more patient because it's like, think of the object in the mirror is closer than they appear, objects, right? On the side view mirror, you're now constantly saying, Oh my God, patience is that Mac truck that's like right there, and I have to have to work on it. So I definitely have your patience issue. Um, my both my boys, if they were on this right now, and my wife would say, I'm so quick to jump to a conclusion or an assumption. Um I unfortunately, fortunately and unfortunately do work with families where I have to go in and seal team six and quickly in 90 days reboot their entire system, identify what is the system creating the symptom, and hack that with them in a very evidence-based way and a pathway out. So this is not an excuse at all. I take full responsibility for the piece of my dad game. I have to up level. But when I see something, I go to the ROI of that thing, and I'm already immediately seeing this thing creating the trajectory of my son being like 28, 29. And that is my gift and my curse. So I have to work on suspending disbelief and staying out of um too quick patternistically of putting all those things together.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Yeah, it's a good one. You actually made me think of a growth area um where I was not doing the same thing, but like when I corporate guy for you know 25 years, this entrepreneur coaching executive work found me. I didn't mean to start this job, but it's it's a calling, I swear, and it feels it's amazing. And I was so excited about I wrote the book and so excited about the podcast and so excited about doing all these things that um I found myself coaching my family. Yes, and wanting to solve. And then one this is where I loved the power of humility and um being able to be coached. So my wife's like, Hey, we want Casey back. And I was like, What? And she's like, we don't want to be coached.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

And it was such a punch in the face I needed. And I was like, I don't want to be I don't want to be that guy that like I'm just like talking about podcasts all the time to my to my buddies, and it's like they just want me to be my myself. And it's like I used to joke, like my I got a buddy who's a cop, it's like he's not hey case, I mean, can I tell you about this guy pulled over? He's going 38 and 25. You can tell you all about it. I'm like, I could give two shits about that. Right, right. You know, and so it's like for me, it was just a good reminder of you know meeting people where they are. Yeah, that's why I fell in love with curiosity, because yeah, when we're curious, yeah, we don't solve. Yeah, help people solve it for themselves. Yep. And it's and that's one of the hardest things I I mean, I struggle with, but now I'm getting a little way better, and even like as a working with leaders, and I use it on my kids too. It's like we have the answer because we have experience, just like you, you know, so that definitely what you said spoke to.

Patience, Over-Helping, And Curiosity

SPEAKER_01 50:05

No, that's great. I uh I thankfully don't play therapist, I I don't maintain a professional veneer, but what I do do, which is similar to what I was saying and what you had to go through, is I am around risk and death all day long. And so I recognize that I have like a quasi-undercurrent of PTSD where I'm always trying to help my kids, not fix them or anything like that, or play therapist, thankfully. But my reactivity is at times disproportionate because one of the biggest things that's really funny is like my kids go to a school that's so different night and day from my come up. And there are kids like pulling up at 16 years, you know, in the parking lot with, you know, brand new BMW, Mercedes, Tesla, whatever. And by proxy, people come up to me all the time. And my kids are far from perfect, but they're always like, Where are your kids from? And what they're saying is, we can't place your kids. They're actually aberrant to the norms of this community, and it's a compliment. Yeah. But I'm judging my kids, unfortunately, um, by the environs that I've actually created in my own growth process. So I'm almost holding them accountable when in fact they're not the entitled kid that's to the left and right of them. So that's my issue. And I my work ethic is so strong, and it's also a uh filter to which I wrongfully almost over it's overwrought. It's it's it's like it's too much of a defining uh vector of how I evaluate my kids at times. Yeah, under entitlement and disease, you know, it's like so um versus at times dropping the shoulders and allowing these things to percolate because my job is rooting out symptoms all day long. So I'm hyper-vigilant in a good way and a bad way, if that makes sense. No, no, it does.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Yeah, I think I think that'll speak to a lot of dads um listening at home. Um Thomas says, We get ready to wrap up here. Um, we've talked about a lot. It's been really, really cool and interesting to just learn about you and and the work you do. And um you articulate it in a very easy to consume way, um, which I'm not surprised by all the success you've had in your career. If you were to summarize what we've talked about, that the dad can take you know actionable guidance from what we've maybe some themes we've talked about that that he could apply to his life to say, man, I could I could take what Casey and Thomas talked about and do A, B, and C to really work on being a better leader or quarterback in my household. Tell me what comes to mind.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Uh what comes to mind is to come alongside your kids and to be curious, of course, to steal a page from your book. But what a lot of families and a lot of dads especially do, which is really sad, is they make themselves one-trick ponies. They threaten their kids. You know, if you vape one more time or smoke one more time, you know, pot, I'll gonna kick you out. They go to Z and then they don't follow through. And so they model they're not impeccable with their word. Or the dads I work with overplay to their supposed strength, which is to work 70 to 90 hours uh a week as a CEO, and they abscond from the role of daddy and they're not present. And so I think the the growth for dads, and I think you and I are even speaking about it in our own selves, is in the middle. It's it's always, you know, the patience is not black, not white. It doesn't mean we're patient with disease. It doesn't mean we're patient with our kid is drinking or drugging, um, but just this idea of discernment, this idea of coming alongside, being more curious, being more present, um, suspending disbelief. And again, staying out of those really extreme, you know, north or south pole reactions where we're either again minimizing, looking the other way, or we're completely, you know, threatening the relationship by threatening our loved one half the time with things we aren't going to do. There's a way which the families learn through the Four Peaks Parents program on how to use open, heart-centered language, but also be ridiculously direct where we need to be, hold boundaries, hold limits, and empower your kids, right, to choose their own choices and to let them own their outcome, whether that is a treatment program or whether that is remaining in your house. It's also not healthy to have a 29-year-old living in your house, even if they're not drinking drugging. Um, you know, they need to launch. So everything I do with families is individualized, and I really do help dads and moms stay away from ineffectual approaches where we're living in the those extremes.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

When you said the 29-year-old home, I quickly went to Step Brothers. I couldn't get that vision out of my head.

Standards, Entitlement, And Presence

SPEAKER_01 54:58

Yes, that's about that movie is like that is the greatest movie. You know, like 20-something percent of that movie, I was listening to this um thing about it, was improved. And the dad, I forget the actor's name, he's a very serious character. He plays very serious characters prior to that movie. He said he had such a hard time because Will Farrell and um oh my god, what's it? John John C. Riley. John C. Riley, they would just go off like 20, 25% of the movie is completely them just riffing off. And they were like, he said he was having a hard time placing, and then once he realized, like, gave himself permission, he was able to just jump right in, you know. And uh, that's such a great movie. It's that's such a great movie. Yeah. Well, I dude, you're you're like, you're great, you're awesome. And thank you for letting me uh you know, uh talk to you about your life and and in this pod, uh, of course, when you were my guest. But and I I love I love that we can be vulnerable. What kills me about one last thing I'll say is uh vulnerability, I think it's a bad rap nowadays. People think vulnerability is violating other people's boundaries. You know, vulnerability is not spillage, vulnerability is not just at work um going off the rails and sharing way too much. Um, that takes us off mission of our job as a dad or a performer or whatever our job is. Vulnerability is what you and I are doing, which is, you know, talking about, like you said, the the parts of our dad game we have to up level um and holding it and not expecting anyone else, right, to fix it. We can have a coach, a guide, a supporter, a mentor, a friend, but being self-aware, I always say they're your sheep and they shouldn't be shitting on someone else's lawn, right? We, you know, we have to take care of our sheep and be better shepherds. It's not about perfection. I'm gonna make a mistake um based on some of those shortcomings. We were using it. We all are flawed humans.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

We all are flawed humans.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

Well, full circle, I'll I'll I'll end this before we make sure we can make sure connect to have people learn how to connect with you. But yeah, you know, back to my daughter, Riley, with the sending, you know, I shared with her that when I, you know, luckily, I said Riley, you know, the not to deminimize what you were going through, but like luckily you you actually played more games than I did my senior year. I I only had two plays. You played about a month and a half and played fantastic and have some great highlights and memories. And um, when I when I got hurt, I had a guy that I already beat out have to go play my spot at quarterback. And I was I was hoping he would play bad. I hoped he got hurt. I was thinking the worst things ever. And I told him these things. And I said, and then finally something in me said, I gotta get help.

unknown 57:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 57:36

And I went and talked to my coach and I said, So Rye, so you're gonna you might go through these feelings. Sure. And luckily I haven't seen them, and but if you do, that's okay. And we're gonna talk through it.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

But that means that means she's healthier than you. Seriously, she's not. I'm being serious, but that's but that's kudos to you. Like my kids are way healthier than me, they're way more balanced than me, way more balanced. As and she is. So what you were doing there, understandably, is that anger, you know, uh, you know, the putting the finger in the wound was becoming corrosive to the point that it was toxifying, right? Your your ability to be a teammate. And then you thank God again pivoted. I give you credit because I'm telling you, what I said earlier about your dad and stuff, printification, you're gonna be fine. And uh if you ever need any help, call me in 15 years. But what I know about you through your book, that that piece about like letting go and realizing the team and all that, you've already made those pivots. And the same thing with her, like you had to make that pivot, even your injury forced that pivot earlier, right? To not be so like myopic in your a perspective. And she's gonna be aight. She's gonna be aight. Yeah. Wow, blah blah blah. How can people find you? Uh, easiest way is four peaksparenting.com. Um, peaks as in P-E-A-K-S and the number four, or just Thomas Millercoaching.com. Thomasmillercoaching.com is kind of a wider array of all the coaching I offer. Fourpeaksparenting.com is solely for parents. And if any parent out there, thank you for giving me this space to do this, has a kiddo, whether they're neurodivergent as an autistic or ADHD or dyslexic, or whether they are drinking or drugging, or whether they are drinking and drugging and struggling with um mental health issues and cannabis is uh problematic people. Um, there's very few teens right now and young adults who can recreationally use cannabis. That's a whole other episode. But if you have a loved one who's smoking four times a day, that's highly problematic. If you just have a question about is your kid on the spectrum, is your kid have OCD? Is this possibly an eating disorder? Please book a free discovery call, which you could do through fourpeaksparenting.com. You can also sign up for my newsletter there as well and uh check out my pod. And please keep listening to this podcast. I love it. Season seven, hells yeah, with amazing guests on the way.

Actionable Advice For Dads

SPEAKER_02 59:54

Uh awesome. I'll make sure that's all that's linked. Um, before we let you go, we're gonna take into the lightning round, which is I go random. I show you the negative hits of taking too many hits in college, not bong hits, but football hits. Uh, your job is to answer these questions as quickly as you can. My job is to try to get a giggle out of you. Cool. Uh, true or false, you once played soccer with Pele. Uh false. Okay. Uh true or false. Um Preki and Steve Jungle were my favorite players growing up. So I played on the same team that Preki played for way back when. Dude, Preki and Tacoma Stars had the sickest cutback move ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

Yeah. The nasty left foot.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:33

So I played for Frostanone Soccer Club, which was part of the Italian American Soccer League way back when we played, ironically, in Randall's Island, which is where the Cosmos played, where Pele played, but I had never played with Pele.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:44

Um, so my buddy, shout out to again Brandon Perdeau, who played uh in the MLS for 13 years, 14 years. He he he grew up where I am coach from the University of Washington for a little bit. Um, and then he played for I think DC United or Kansas Wizards. I think it was with Kansas City Wizards that Pele.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

Is that when they had that stupid, awkward PK thing where they would run at the keeper? You remember that crap? Early MLS? Oh my god, it's it's laughable. So when it when a game went into overtime rather than a PK, like penalty kicks, they would do this thing. I forget if it was a 25-yard line or 30, they would dribble at the keeper on a one-on-one. So it's like typical, like, I love the MLS, no hate here, but like, come on, people, why do we have to make this beautiful game different?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:28

We already call it soccer, it's football. Like, come on, you know, but it's a whole other conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

Yeah. If I came to your house for dinner tonight, what would we have? Uh tonight, I don't know. Uh a sable. I don't know. That sounds good. Yeah. If I went into your phone right now, what would be the one genre music that might surprise uh your clients?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:46

Oh, uh punk. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

Well, blink.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Uh more like Clash, like earlier, Ramones, Sex Pistols. Ramones. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:56

Um, if there was to be a book written about your life, tell me the title. Uh, something about integrity has to be something about integrity. Integrity is the best value, highest value, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

Okay. Now, Thomas, um, that book sold out, and so we're gonna make a movie out of it. Um, Netflix just bought the rights. Uh you're the casting director. I need to know who's gonna star you in this critically acclaimed hit new movie about integrity.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Uh Ken O'Reeves, hell's yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

Good pull. Yeah, and then last uh and most important question, tell me two words that would describe your wife. Uh servant leader. I'll give you a hyphenated one if you want another word.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:32

No, that hits hard. I I I uh that's that that's that's really good. She she's uh to a fault, uh, willing to uh blanket whatever we need.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

There we go. Lightning round's complete. Um we both giggled a little bit. Uh this has been a fantastic conversation. Um everybody, please connect with Thomas, four Peaks Parenting, um, Thomas Millercoaching.com, fourpeeaksparents.com, pardon me. Um learn about him, follow his work, uh, fantastic content. Um, and just a great, a great dad, I guess, working hard. No one's perfect. We got just because I run a podcast for dad doesn't mean I got my shit together. I got I'm I'm doing this podcast honestly for free therapy. And every dad I talk to, I got a chance to learn from others. And so I hope that you got a page full of notes like I do. Uh Thomas, we we uh appreciate you, appreciate your time, and I hope our paths continue to cross. But wishing you the best in 2026. Thank you so much. It's such an honor. It's great.