A Critical Conversation on Campus Sexual Assault and Recovery

Did you know:

• 1 in 5 women will be sexually assaulted while in college or graduate school
• 6% of men will be sexually assaulted while in college or graduate school
• 90% of sexual assaults on college campuses go unreported.
• More than 50% of college sexual assaults occur in either August, September, October, or November.  This is called the "Red Zone" 

In the latest episode, I have a deeply personal and tough discussion with my brave guest, Anne, who unveils her own experience of sexual assault in college. The goal is to shed light on the emotional aftermath of such incidents, often unspoken, which includes anxiety, depression, and PTSD.

Also joining in the conversation is private investigator, Sally Tierney.  Sally aided Anne in discovering the identity of her attacker and has helped many other clients gain control of their experiences.

This is a difficult, but necessary conversation and I hope you will join us.
This is not just an episode, but a testament to the resilience of survivors and the strength of those who stand with them.

Resources cited throughout the episode:
https://knowyourix.org/
https://www.rainn.org/
https://www.clearpathforwardpi.com/
https://helpingsurvivors.org/resources/

Transcript

Jessica Kidwell: 0:00

This podcast was created to be a space for conversation. The topics will vary, but the conversation will always be honest, authentic and sometimes even a little uncomfortable. My hope is that through these conversations we will build a community of people who might not always agree with each other, but will definitely feel less isolated and alone. So I'm Jessica Kidwell and this is. We Should Talk About that. One, two, one, two. Hi everyone, it's Jessica Kidwell.

Jessica Kidwell: 0:44

I want to give listeners the notice that this episode is about sexual assault. This is a subject that causes great discomfort to many people. For some it's because it's a painful reminder of something terrible that happened to them or to someone that they love. To some people, it just makes them feel very icky or uncomfortable, and so they may think we should not talk about sexual assault. But that's not what this show is about. We talk about difficult things and we should talk about sexual assault. In fact, we must talk about sexual assault.

Jessica Kidwell: 1:23

Sexual assault is incredibly prevalent. Overall, one in six women are survivors of sexual assault, and as I have watched many of my peers proudly sending their children off to college, it occurred to me that it's especially important for this community to talk about sexual assault. Know Year IX, which is a student-led organization supporting survivors of sexual assault in college, say that one in five women will be sexually assaulted in college, and of those women, 84% of those assaults happen in the first four semesters. And this isn't just happening to women. Overall, 13% of all college age individuals, no matter their gender, will experience sexual assault, and no matter who's assaulted or when it happens. 90% of those college assaults go unreported. Lack of reporting does not mean lack of impact, though. Survivors of sexual assault are more at risk for clinically significant symptoms of anxiety, depression and PTSD all throughout their life. Which brings me to my guests.

Jessica Kidwell: 2:35

Today, anne is here to share her story about sexual assault. I'm so grateful to Anne for trusting me enough to share her experience with me and, by extension, you, the listeners. And in order to foster that trust, I want to provide Anne with as much anonymity as possible. So we've distorted her voice and we will not be using real names or very specific in location, and I want to emphasize that her anonymity does not equate shame or uncertainty about what happened to her. Her anonymity is about handing control to Anne of her experience, because Anne and so many women like her did not get that control when their sexual assault happened. So today she has the right, and every day, to be in control of her story. So, anne, thank you for being here and thank you so much for this conversation.

Anne: 3:33

Thank you, it's nice to be here.

Jessica Kidwell: 3:35

So, as I stated in that intro, anne, unfortunately the story you're about to share with us is not uncommon. However, it is extremely personal to you and the fact that it happens to one in five women in college doesn't make the experience any less difficult to relive. So I'm sorry to have to ask you to do that with us today, but I appreciate your willingness to do that. Would you mind sharing what happened to you in college and we'll start talking about how that has impacted, kind of the rest of your life?

Anne: 4:23

Okay, sure, I was in college when this happened. I was in my second semester of freshman year. I had been out not in a very happy day, I had some rotten news about something that was going on in my personal life with a boyfriend, but I proceeded to drink a lot more than I had ever done before and was basically in the town where my college is in the town, and I remember being very drunk, being quite angry with my boyfriend at the time and then kind of the next thing I remember I woke up many, many hours later in a place off campus that I'd never been in my life and I was driven home by a complete stranger to my dorm room and I kind of tucked it all away. I kind of, I think, you know, I didn't know exactly what had happened and I think shame took over and I just suppressed it completely for a long, long time.

Jessica Kidwell: 5:44

It's a very relatable story because I think many of us have had that experience in college where, especially when you're new to the freedom of college, you utilize partying and drinking in a way that you never quite have had the chance to do before and to have that blackout experience is scary, even if no sexual assault happens, and I'm wondering if, as you think back to that night and the days after even though you certainly referenced tucking it all away do you recall at all having an inkling that something physical had happened to you that night.

Anne: 6:42

Yes, I think there was definitely an inkling and there was a definite strong feeling of it was something to be deeply ashamed of and it was something absolutely, you know, unthinkably horrible. But I also think that it was difficult to actually feel, you know, to be connected to a feeling of, oh, that definitely happened. I feel that you know, in my personal space, so to speak, and that was hard to be in touch with because I think I really disconnected from my body. You know, I think I was just numb and full of absolute remorse and disgust, shame.

Jessica Kidwell: 7:32

Yes, all feelings that are very naturally tucked away as soon as they come up in anyone. So now let's talk a little bit about when the tucked away started to fall apart, if you will. What was going on that led you to start realizing or remembering the truth of what happened to you?

Anne: 7:58

After my second child was born and it can't be coincidence at all you know that I began having very vivid flashbacks, you know, waking, you know, not nighttime, not dreams during the day. Flashbacks that you know. I almost felt like intrusive thoughts, but thought for the fact that they were completely real and there was not a moment of doubting that they were real, but flashbacks to the actual experience of being in a room, in a place I'd never been, but a very, you know, isolated dark place. Well, actually, no, it wasn't dark, because I could also vividly see this guy who I knew only by a nickname. I'd heard of him, I knew who he was, but I'd never spoken to him. Yeah, very vivid flashback to him raping me and me seeing, you know, seeing it from the point of view of in my body, in the bed. Also seeing it from kind of outside my body as well.

Jessica Kidwell: 9:09

And this was someone that you recognized maybe not well, but it was not a complete stranger to you.

Anne: 9:16

Yeah, he was an older guy at the college that I knew of but never had spoken or had any reason to you know know anything more about him, but I knew all of him.

Jessica Kidwell: 9:33

So it's really intriguing to me when you describe that you were having these flashbacks and you knew that they were true. I'm wondering how did you know that they were true? And I asked that, because of all of these layers that we place on shame and guilt that caused you to tuck these memories away, was there ever a part of you that thought, oh my God, why am I making these flashbacks up?

Anne: 10:10

No, no, it almost felt like I mean, as much as they were alarming and upsetting, they actually felt like something was just much being clear. It was like something was coming into a clarity of, yeah, I knew that. It was almost like it was kind of admitting. I suppose admitting the truth to myself of this is what I feared.

Anne: 10:46

This is, you know, on the day that it happened as much as I say I took everything away I did have a sense of you know, something happened and there were other people that kind of referred to oh, you left with that guy, you know naming him as his nickname, you know you left with him and I remember thinking, oh, you know, is that a perception that I was a slot, that I would have left with this guy to go and have sex with him? I mean, there was the shame of that. It was like, is that what people think of me? But anyway, the guy was kind of named even back then and I pushed it away, didn't want to actually completely idea that you know what actually happened. But somehow later in my 30s it became undeniable.

Jessica Kidwell: 11:42

So at that point, what did you do with those flashbacks? How did you process or handle them?

Anne: 11:50

I did. I told my husband you know, in the sense of this is something that's really fresh, very upsetting, very disturbing, but something I want to actually have you know, to be able to talk about it with, have someone to be able to talk about it with and he really wasn't able to. He did his best but he just wasn't able to. So I went and found a therapist.

Jessica Kidwell: 12:18

Okay, and you shared with your therapist that you had this experience in college. Did you feel at the time that you processed everything when you started seeing that therapist?

Anne: 12:34

You know, I think I partially processed. I think it was, like you know, an initial level of processing.

Anne: 12:41

Yeah to be honest to say this is what's happened to me to have you know, to have the, you know, as I say, you know the safe space to be able to talk about it was great. You know that helped, but there was more to do and I think when I was ready later on gosh, maybe another good few years later on I then went on to have another therapist a different you know different therapists where I found it much more about delving into you know shame and you know and sort of the why it was repressed and and the and the how it's repressed. I did a lot more of that kind of processing.

Jessica Kidwell: 13:21

I don't want to say how many years you've been processing this, but would it be fair to say that, with the decades that have passed since this assault happened to you, you have been impacted pretty much every day since, even when you weren't actively remembering it?

Anne: 13:47

Well, gosh, I'd say so, yes, but I wanted to specifically say that the time spent sort of doing the very deliberate process of, you know, opening up all of those, you know ashamed feelings and talking about the impacts, I'm absolutely proud of them. I don't have any shame around that. I'm very proud of them. You know it's been hard work and, yeah, it's been years of therapy, years, two different therapists, but it's been, you know, a lot of hard work but very prideful work. I should say, yeah, very helpful and freeing, yeah.

Jessica Kidwell: 14:31

Well, I love hearing that. I want to talk a little bit, though, about that shame.

Anne: 14:38

Okay.

Jessica Kidwell: 14:39

I think that is a universally shared experience for anyone male, female who has experienced sexual violence or violence of any sort. In the realm of minimizing the, the role of the perpetrator and Instead focusing blame on self, how have you Processed that shame from the standpoint of? Was there a point where you blamed yourself for what happened to you? And and where are you with it today?

Anne: 15:24

There definitely was that point. That point lasted for a long, long time of Thinking that it was my fault, you know, to have let myself be completely out of control like that and to have drunk tea March, to have I don't know. I mean I can't think of any other reasons. But yeah, oh, it's amazing that the self-blame, how irrational it is, but it's very strong.

Jessica Kidwell: 15:58

Well, you even referenced the fear of seeming like a slut because you went away From a party with someone that that. That is the first place where your mind went, as opposed to I wonder what happened, or I wonder where that person took me the the first impulses. Oh no, what are people thinking of me?

Anne: 16:24

Well, um, there's a lot of mixed feelings actually, without Jessica. There's a lot of sort of going into you sort of my point of view, which is, you know, yeah, what happened? Was I carried out, you know, was I, was I dragged out? Was I, you know, willingly going with someone who said they weren't gonna take me home? I don't know. But the mixed part is that, yeah, afterward I became really pure preoccupied with you know what. You know what does it look like? What did people think I went with them? Do people think I would actually Want to have sex with someone who you know, like that? You know, I was almost it was my pride coming in, like how could anyone think that I would leave with them? But I didn't feel like there was any option in there of being believed, you know, there was just no sense of that. I could say no, I didn't want to go with him. I Don't know, maybe it's something about not wanting to, not wanting to admit that I was right. It was almost like it was preferable to be misunderstood like that.

Jessica Kidwell: 17:32

I don't know it's interesting when you talk about not not wanting to say that you were raped. I wonder how many Survivors are out there who have a hard time claiming that word as something having happened to them. Because of the way that society has, or the justice system has, narrowly defined what rape looks like and the specter of the dark alleyway, stranger, violent, there'd be no way you could ever question whether something as horrific as rape has happened to you, because you would be beat up or your clothes were be torn or you would be found in some outside place that strangers happen upon you. That this, this narrow interpretation of of what rape is, I think, keeps women from ever claiming that that is their experience and therefore probably stunts the healing process.

Anne: 18:58

Well, yeah, actually that does. That really does make a lot of sense, you know. I mean, if you think about it, you know it was in the 80s. It was long before you know, ever anyone even said the phrase date rate. You know long before me, too long before you know. People actually read, not redefined rape, but certainly were more Acknowledging that rape is not just being grabbed by a stranger.

Jessica Kidwell: 19:24

So I'd like to bring someone else into the conversation now and to those who have been listeners of we should talk about that for a while, this will be a familiar voice and you reached out to Sally Tierney to help you as you continued your process of healing from your experience. Sally, first of all, welcome and thank you for being here. Can you just remind everyone what it is that you do, and then let's talk about how you were able to assist Anne?

Sally Tierney: 20:02

Hello, thank you for having me. I have a company called Clear Path Forward and it's an advocacy private investigation firm, and Anne reached out to me. At first she just wanted to know who her rapist actually was and where he was living. Now, like she said, she only had a nickname. She knew of a sport that he played and she knew of a fraternity that he was in, and she wanted to know where he was. And we found him, and then she was able to decide what she wanted to do with that information. So that was the first step when Anne reached out to me.

Jessica Kidwell: 20:45

Anne, would you mind sharing why getting that information was important to you?

Anne: 20:58

Yeah, well, in hindsight it hasn't been a game changer. I think it just felt like a step in terms of being open and truthful with myself, to actually be 100% open and honest with myself and actually with Sally as well. It was very, very nice to have someone close by that was also witnessing my truth, my discovery, the journey that I was meeting to take. It was important. But when I say in hindsight I think, well, actually I have the information and that seems like it.

Jessica Kidwell: 21:45

Well, I don't think that minimizes just because you have the information, but what you do with it I don't think equates the importance of having that information, and I do find it interesting to think about just the process of having someone witness and validate your experience has to be so helpful in the healing process. Absolutely, and, anne, you mentioned this, so I feel comfortable referencing that this happened in the 80s. Now, sally, I want to talk about how on earth you are able to find such concrete information about something that happened so many years ago, and I imagine you have more than Anne as a client of someone who has been sexually assaulted. Can you tell us how you found Anne's perpetrator? And then, is it any different whether the assault happened today or 40 years ago?

Sally Tierney: 23:09

Well, first of all I want to go back to what Anne said about it making a difference. I have a feeling that it gave Anne a sense of control and empowered her just to be. I would imagine that not knowing where this person is in the world, what they're doing, just kind of, is around you all the time. The unknown and taking control of knowing okay, here's where he is, here's what he does, here's who or who he isn't married to, and how many children he may or may not have, and this is what he does for a business. Knowing all of that puts Anne right back in the power seat, and then she can decide what she wants to do. So how did I find this particular person? We got very lucky. I did a lot of searching and found a yearbook from that exact year and was able to find the fraternity picture and the sport picture, and there his face was Wow, and there his name was under his face.

Jessica Kidwell: 24:29

In your experience with helping Anne or any of your other clients? What role does either law enforcement or the university themselves play in helping or hindering your efforts, sally?

Sally Tierney: 24:46

So often, every client is different and I assist them with where they are and where they want to go, and that is going to change for every single person. Some people call me because law enforcement isn't giving them the attention that they deserve or is actually being rude to them, and sometimes my job is just getting involved calling law enforcement, getting the supervisor of that detective in the loop and understanding that that detective is not treating my client properly, and it's interesting to watch people behave very differently once their supervisor is now looped in on every email and every call about the case. So it really just depends on what the client needs. I love helping people gain more strength and power when it's been taken away from them.

Jessica Kidwell: 25:50

It sounds exhausting the amount of let's call it grunt work that you have to do when you are investigating any of your cases, sally. However, I imagine if I was Ann or if I wanted to start this process for myself, the exhaustion would be tenfold when you yourself are trying to find this information. Can you talk a little bit about this idea of you kind of playing goaltender or gatekeeper for the information as it comes in, and how that may or may not help your client?

Sally Tierney: 26:43

I agree it would be exhausting if you are under a tremendous amount of stress or. But for me, this is my job and I've set myself out there to the world to say I'm here, I'm your strength, and so when I get a call from someone like Ann who wants my services, I get exhilarated. It's like putting on my cape. You know, here I go, I'm going to help Ann, and it's not exhausting, it's invigorating, and so I think you kind of need both, because I've been under stress in different situations. I mean, I'm thinking of the time my son had Lyme's disease and I was so stressed I couldn't research Lyme's disease. You know, I needed a specialist, I needed an expert. And so you just play different roles at different times in your life.

Jessica Kidwell: 27:41

Why do you feel compelled to do this work? I imagine it can be hard. Even if it is invigorating for you. There must be tough days. What keeps you going?

Sally Tierney: 27:55

Well, I got interested in it because someone very close to me was raped and I saw up close and personal how absolutely difficult navigating the system was for somebody with plenty of resources, plenty of support. All the things were in place for this person to get to have a smooth outcome, and I watched how daunting the task was of deciding whether or not to report took years. Just that's the beginning. It was daunting and I was able to help this person and because of my closeness to them and all the help that I gave, I talked about it a lot. I'm a talker and so many people that I told me that.

Sally Tierney: 28:55

So many people my age said to me I've never told anybody this before, but I was also raped and it became a theme. I mean, it was like I don't know if the percentage was 80% of women that are my friends. It's so high and I've been lucky enough not to have this happen to me and I just enjoy giving people the power that they that was taken away from them and just giving them strength and letting them know that they have done. If I could wish one thing, it's that I don't care what you did leading up to the incident. You are never, ever ever to blame for being raped, and I just if I could spread that through the world, that would make me happy but to be able to be an investigator and an advocate for people who need help, it's just an extremely fulfilling job.

Jessica Kidwell: 30:09

So Anne, how has having this information even if, like you said you, you feel like maybe you didn't necessarily need it has it helped you?

Anne: 30:28

Well, yes, I mean exactly as how you're saying it's actually being able to have back the control that you felt was, you know that was robbed also without having the overwhelm of having to go through a system which is really very, very unsupportive, as you mentioned. But the very nice sort of side benefit or not side benefit some kind of surprising outcome was that I also was able to have a little bit of a kind of what would you call it, a little ceremony of goodbye to shame and my very, very close friend, who knows my story and has encouraged me a lot through these well, for at least 10 years now, she and I had, we created a ceremony together where we actually burned the yearbook picture of the rapist. We burned it, we recited poems, had a little bit of you know, just a gleeful stomping on the ashes. It felt like a real goodbye to shame, like, you know, an ending of something, an ending of a long period of absolutely, you know, ugh, whatever muckiness. It was a nice goodbye.

Jessica Kidwell: 31:58

You can't see me, but I'm really teary thinking about that for you. And you talked about how proud you are of the work that you have done to process what happened to you. How have you changed from prior to all of this work to now?

Anne: 32:31

I think that it has been a huge catalyst in a lot of change in my life, a lot being much more aware of myself. You know feeling much more sort of in my life and I know that sounds so dramatic, but I feel more of me, more in my life, more open to the world, more honest and open to you know all experiences, all my emotions, you know so many things have kind of just been set free of this horrible constraint that I kind of felt like I lived with for a long time.

Jessica Kidwell: 33:20

And the constraint Shame.

Anne: 33:24

Same self-dlaim disgust, horror, unknowing, you know, law being in the dark. Ugh, just ugh. Not being honest with myself.

Jessica Kidwell: 33:38

We certainly can't speak for all women, but we are three women of various ages and various experiences, so I want to shift the conversation a little bit larger than this specific experience for you and talk about why do we think we as women spend so much time blaming ourselves for everything. If it's not sexual assault, it's the failure of a relationship, it's the state our body or our face might be in. What are we doing to ourselves and what do we need to do to stop?

Anne: 34:25

Well, I don't know. My first thought is something that could be helpful is to actually stop having this sort of blame culture that we all live in. You know all our relationships I don't know about you, but there's always this blame culture. Someone has to be wrong. So I'm not saying yeah, that doesn't diminish the fact that in this case, in rape, there is definitely blame to be had. But I just think that, you know, the blame culture means that there's just it always has to be all or nothing. I think maybe it maybe makes us have to feel like, well, if you can't prove that you're not to blame, then that means you are to blame If you're not. Does that make sense? Yeah, definitely, you know, if you're powerless and you can't actually, you know, have a fact to prove something, that you then have to absorb all the blame back again, because that's kind of the way everybody seems to operate.

Jessica Kidwell: 35:28

Sally, I hold you up to be one of the standard bears in my life that I look to for strength and self assuredness. What do you think women need to do to stop blaming ourselves and living in so much shame?

Sally Tierney: 35:46

Oh my gosh, I never. I hate to say this, but I don't ever blame myself, and maybe that's why I'm so uniquely qualified to do this job. But I never did blame myself as a child and I said I was not raped. But my next door neighbor was a 65 year old child molester and he was grooming the whole neighborhood of young girls. I was about eight years old. Luckily we moved before anything got way out of control. But he was doing weird things and I remember having conversations with myself. I didn't tell anybody, but I remember thinking you're not to blame. Wow, I'm a 65 year old kid. I remember that. So I don't know why I don't blame myself. And it's been only in the last 10 years that I've realized how hard women actually are on themselves. I, you know everyone operates from a place of. They project what they're thinking on to the world.

Anne: 36:59

This is all news to me, I mean you know, I was just going to say isn't there this phrase about internalized misogyny? You know, absolutely. I think that's why it's more of a woman's thing than a man's thing. It doesn't explain you, sally, though.

Sally Tierney: 37:17

My friends have always said you're like a boy when we were kids. You know, when we were kids are like, you're like a boy, and maybe that's what it partly what they mean. I mean, I don't, I don't know, but I certainly wish that women would not blame themselves for anything. Wow.

Jessica Kidwell: 37:39

To bottle and distribute this inherent moral compass inside of you would solve all of the world's ill. So we'll have to think about how, how to do that. I also want to pause it, in addition to injecting Sally Tierney's confidence directly into us. Short of that, I will. I have a question about your all thoughts on the me to movement now, and did what was happening during me to impact you at all during your healing process? Oh my, gosh.

Anne: 38:29

Yes, in a word, a million percent. I mean after I've been doing a lot of therapy before I've, obviously, and then that came along and I thought it just made a lot of well. It took away a lot of the feelings of Shane, absolutely. You know lots and lots of women coming forward. You know openly discussing abuse, openly discussing sexism, the baby experience. I mean it was hugely helpful, yeah.

Jessica Kidwell: 39:04

Yeah, there's a part of me that worries that the me to movement is reached kind of a fulcrum point and tipped over to like backlash, and that I felt so hopeful when it was first kind of enveloping and being welcomed in the culture. Because, exactly like you said, and this normalization of how prevalent harassment and assault is in day to day life certainly helped many, many women with their feelings of shame and isolation. However, I don't know whether as a culture we have shifted into a posture of believing women, or if we were moving in that direction and then it stopped. What do you guys think?

Sally Tierney: 40:23

I think I hear what you're saying, but I think once that genie's out of the bottle and it is out, there's never a way to stuff it back in, and younger people do not have the same hang-ups that older people have. And, yes, there's always backlash and that things ebb and flow in one direction or another, but that was just like an avalanche and it's out there forever and we're only going to move forward from that place.

Anne: 41:00

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Jessica Kidwell: 41:03

Anne, have you noticed a difference?

Anne: 41:06

Yes, yeah, I think you know what you had sort of. I think what you were saying, jessica, about that there has been so much backlash is almost. I mean, yes, it means that things are not easy. You know, it's not as though everything's plain sailing. It's still a lot of anger and resentment and resistance to change. But at least it's explicit now. You know it's not sort of this quiet. Oh, you know women are. You know their rights are eroded and no one talks about you know why, or is it at least now it's. You know the light has been switched on, as Sally said. You know you can't go back, you can't put the genie back in the boat. The light is on now and everybody's feeling and talking and exploring and fighting, probably even more. You know having more difficulties as well, but it's a good thing.

Jessica Kidwell: 42:07

Sally referenced her wish for the world. My wish would be short of changing the entire culture. That feels like too much of a wish. I just want women to believe women. I think that well. I guess I want to be more inclusive and say I want victims to be believed. I want that to be the starting posture, as opposed to a feeling that a victim needs to prove their worth or that what happened to them was important enough before they are believed.

Anne: 42:57

Well, yes, the actual, that's right. The regard of the crime. You know it's not regarded as highly as you know. What would be the reverse, I guess.

Jessica Kidwell: 43:12

So, Anne, what compels you to tell your story in this forum? Why are you here today with me?

Anne: 43:27

I guess, to maybe share the journey to creating more awareness, certainly creating more, you know, understanding of why it's hard for people to be believed, why it's hard for victims to be believed, why it's hard for victims to actually come forward and say you know what happened, why it's really really hard. And I guess the example of you know it taking 40 years is I guess I'm hoping that's my statement that's how hard it is, but maybe that will make it that much easier for somebody else.

Jessica Kidwell: 44:08

Now, obviously I discussed at the beginning that we are taking measures to protect your privacy because you get to be in control and you set the boundaries on who knows this story about you. Would you be willing to share if you are more open in your personal life about what happened to you?

Anne: 44:30

Absolutely. Yes, I know. Yes, I now find it much more comfortable to tell people my story. You know, the people who are close, the people who I trust I share it and I don't say, you know, this is top secret or please don't share it. I should say it in a way that says I'm not ashamed. So, yeah, it's made a little difference in openness in my life.

Jessica Kidwell: 45:02

Well, I love hearing that and, as I said at the beginning, I'm very grateful to you that you felt comfortable enough and have trusted me enough to share your experience in this setting, and I believe, as I said to Sally when we first talked about this, that this will be hugely impactful and incredibly helpful to more people than we could even guess.

Anne: 45:37

That's wonderful. I think that is the huge aim is to actually start conversations. Obviously, your podcast is about all conversations and here is a start to another one of the top difficult ones. Yeah, it's wonderful that you're doing it.

Sally Tierney: 45:57

I think Ann can decide if this is true, but we had a lot of conversations and about. You know that you just wish you could give this information to your younger self or young women today, and if you could get that message out there and help anybody, then you know that was empowering and felt like it gave you a good purpose. Would you agree that those were our conversations? That's, that's how I remember you.

Anne: 46:29

Yes, yes, very much so. Yes, you know that's for all people, but yes, you were speaking to my younger self feels like talking to almost, you know, an audience of 18 year olds. You know going to college sitting and, you know, not knowing what to expect but at least having a bit of, a bit of information that will be really useful to them. Tools, you know, access to you know what you offer, sally, you know, just, yeah, the empowerment that all of that would bring.

Jessica Kidwell: 47:08

And, as I stated at the beginning, the statistics certainly demand that more resources be known to to so many of us out there. And on that, in that vein, I just want to say to anyone who is listening if you have found yourself relating or wanting to start your journey, help is available and I will be providing links to resources in the show notes. But specifically, the National Sexual Assault Hotline is 1-800-656-4673. And you can go to the Rape, abuse and Incest National Network, also known as RAINN, at wwwrainnorg. Specifically to college aged individuals, I have found an excellent resource called KnowYour9.org, that's KnowYourIX, the Roman numeral 9. It is, as I said, a student-based advocacy group that is working to provide resources and help students know their rights on their campuses, short of involving the criminal justice system. And, most importantly, I can't help but highly recommend my friend Sally Tierney. Her company is ClearPath Forward. You can reach her at clearpathforwardpicom. And then, sally, thank you so much for doing this with me today. I really appreciate your time.

Anne: 49:03

Thank you, yeah, thank you so much.

Jessica Kidwell: 49:06

We Should Talk About. That is hosted and produced by me, jessica Kidwell. The audio engineering is done by Jarrett Nicolay at Mixtape Studios in Alexandria, virginia. The theme song Be when you Are is courtesy of AstraVIA. Graphic design is by Kevin Adkins.

Jessica Kidwell: 49:25

Do you have a topic we should talk about? Let me know. Submit your idea on our website, wwwweestatpodcom. There's a form right on the main page for you to get in touch with me. And if you don't have a topic but you want to let me know what you thought about the show, think about leaving me a voicemail. You can call WeStat at 631-4-WeStat, that's 631-493-7828. Or you can send me a comment on any of our social links Facebook, instagram, linkedin, threads, that platform formerly known as Twitter. On all of these you can find me at WeStatpod. You may even hear your comments on the air. And finally, there is no we without your participation. I really couldn't do this podcast without your support. So thank you for being here, and if you or your business want to monetarily support the show, I'd appreciate that too. Email me at info at weestatpodcom for more information.

Sally Tierney: 50:55

Thank you.