Understanding Autism: A Teenager's Journey Towards Embracing Neurodivergence

Happy Thanksgiving!
This week I'm doing a cross promotion with my other podcast, Neuroversity and featuring a very special episode.

Join me as I have a conversation with the most important autistic voice you will ever hear on this podcast, my daughter Grace. 

This is not an inspirational story. 
This is not a sad story. 
This is Grace's story.   
How she remembers finding out she's autistic.   
How she sees herself as a neurodivergent teenager.  How she feels about this podcast, and what she is looking forward to in her future. 

One story. 
One autistic experience. 
And I've never been more proud to put it out into the world.  Because one story can change everything.  Just like she has forever changed me.

About the Guest:
Grace Kidwell is a 15 year old freshman from Alexandria, VA.  She is a member of her school dance team, loves to read, wishes she could travel more, and adores her dog Derby. 

Follow Neuroversity for more content focused on elevating neurodivergent voices and experiences.  

Transcript

Jessica Kidwell: 0:00

Hi WeSTAT community. It's the week of Thanksgiving here in the US and I'm traveling, but it didn't feel right leaving you with nothing to listen to what if you're traveling, or out for a walk trying to get away from your family that's visiting, or running a million errands as you get ready for your own holiday preparations. So I have something new for you today. Thanksgiving is a time to reflect on the things that people were grateful for, and there is nothing for me that I feel more grateful for than my family, the family I grew up in, the family I have built with Rob, and the family that I choose through the many incredible friends I've made along the way. And in honor of my family, I'm going to do a little cross promotion with my other podcast, neuroversity. Do you know about that? Neuroversity is a podcast dedicated to elevating neurodivergent voices and experiences and providing education about topics pertaining to neurodiversity in general, and the sole and perfect reason I am so interested in this topic is my daughter, grace. Grace just turned 17 on the 17th of this month her golden birthday and her gold-flect green eyes are only matched in beauty by her golden heart. Grace is a dancer, an incredible student, an animal lover who will be a vet someday, an introvert with a wickedly sharp sense of humor, and she's autistic. She sat down with me in Jarrett's studio about a year and a half ago to talk about her journey towards understanding her diagnosis, and I want to share that with you, my WeSTAT community, because you've kind of become my family too. So I'm thankful for every single one of you who choose to spend your time listening to me. So please enjoy this episode of Neuroversity and I will be back with new topics we should talk about next week. I'm Jessica Kidwell and this is Neuroversity a space to expand our understanding of neurodiversity and elevate neurodivergent voices and experiences.

Jessica Kidwell: 2:18

April is Autism Acceptance Month and, if you recall, at the beginning of the month I said that I was going to be quiet this month and make sure that neurodivergent voices are the focus of this month's episodes, and probably the most important neurodivergent voice that I have ever met in my entire life is my guest today. I'm pretty proud and excited to have her here. I'm very happy to introduce my daughter, grace, on the podcast today. Grace is 15 and has graciously agreed to come on the podcast and talk a little bit about being autistic and how that impacts or doesn't impact her life. Hi, how are you? Hi, I'm pretty good, are you sure?

Grace Kidwell: 3:24

Yeah, I'm sure this is just a very interesting thing that I'm doing right now.

Jessica Kidwell: 3:31

Yeah, you are in the studio, which lots of times when I record the podcast I do it in. Where do I do it?

Grace Kidwell: 3:40

You usually do it in our basement, right below my room.

Jessica Kidwell: 3:43

Yeah, you can hear me sometimes, right, mm-hmm, but this time we decided to make it very official and come into Mixtape Studios, which is one of my favorite spaces, and due to COVID, I wasn't able to come in here very much and I had to learn how to podcast remotely. So this is extremely special for me too, to be in this amazing space, mm-hmm. So just to kind of break the ice a little bit, why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?

Grace Kidwell: 4:18

Okay, well, hi, everybody listening. I'm Grace and I'm 15 years old, I'm a freshman and I'm on my school stands team and also I have Asperger's.

Jessica Kidwell: 4:33

Yeah, I noticed that when you and I talk about autism, you feel a lot more comfortable referring to it as Asperger's. For a little bit of background, when Grace was diagnosed, the DSM that was in place then utilized different terminology than the current one does. Currently it's referred to as ASD Autism Spectrum Disorder but when you were diagnosed, when you were in kindergarten, and Asperger's was what you were diagnosed with, which I have noticed makes you feel a little bit more comfortable using that word. Am I right on that?

Grace Kidwell: 5:16

Well, I mean, I don't know. I think it was dad that first told me that I was neurodivergent. He just said I had Asperger's, so that's just what I've called it, because that was the first thing I had. That was the first word I'd heard about it.

Jessica Kidwell: 5:39

Yeah, so how do you define Asperger's when you're thinking about it? Do you have kind of a definition in your head of what it is and how it impacts you?

Grace Kidwell: 5:55

Well, I mean, I feel like and that's another thing I feel like I don't think that my form of autism really impacts me nearly as much as a lot of other people, so I guess that's another reason why I don't usually call it autism.

Jessica Kidwell: 6:15

Well, I think that's understandable. When you look at the kind of the world as a whole, autism can look a lot of different ways and sometimes autism can look kind of uncomfortable. I wonder if that is one of the reasons why it might be hard for you to see yourself as autistic when there is so many different ways that autism looks.

Grace Kidwell: 6:47

Well, I mean that might be part of it. I mean also, I just I didn't know that I was autistic for over half of my life, so I just never thought that I was super different from other people.

Jessica Kidwell: 7:03

Do you remember when your dad and I talked to you about autism?

Grace Kidwell: 7:13

I think so. Yeah, I think I was like 12 or 13 when you first started talking to me about it.

Jessica Kidwell: 7:20

I think my memory is that you were in fifth grade, so that would put you at like 11. But sometimes it's hard to really remember the difference between 11, 12, and 13. Yeah, I mean, I don't remember everything about it so, yeah, do you remember kind of a before you knew and an after you knew? Like you know, there was a time where you didn't have a word for your neurodivergence.

Grace Kidwell: 7:49

Yeah, I do remember when there was a time that I didn't really know why I always had a much harder time kind of acclimating to change or interacting with other people super easily.

Jessica Kidwell: 8:06

Okay. So when you found out that there was a word for why you were a little more rigid and had a little bit harder time talking to people, did it help you feel better to have a reason, or did it scare you?

Grace Kidwell: 8:25

Uh. So the thing about it is I didn't it didn't scare me at all. I don't know why, but it didn't scare me or make me feel sad at all. It just I just thought, oh okay, well, this is. I guess this is the reason that I've had such a hard time talking to people in the past, and that's that's good. Now I know why I've had such a hard time throughout my life. So, yeah, I thought it was just a good thing that I finally had a word for it.

Jessica Kidwell: 8:54

I love hearing that because I think that lots of times parents well, how about this? I'll speak for myself. I know that for me personally, we waited to talk to you about it at the advice of Linda, who was who is your therapist. Linda talked to us a lot about when it would be the right time to tell you, and this is going to get a little bit in the weeds for you personally, grace, but for our listeners, I think it's important that Linda would talk a lot about the fact that brain development and understanding, being able to understand that you are different and why you are different is not something that usually kicks in until until the adolescent brain starts to hit between 10 and 12. She said that in order for the word autism or Asperger's to have meaning to mean anything to you, to help you understand, we had to maybe wait until you were 10 to 12. She also said we should let you lead a little bit as far, as if you ever would come to us and say why is it hard for me? Why am I having a hard time making friends? So it was kind of the confluence of those two things the time and you starting to notice is what led Rob and I to decide that it was time to kind of define it for you.

Jessica Kidwell: 10:35

Now you have a little brother. What is his name?

Jessica Kidwell: 10:38

Yes, his name is Charlie and he's 12 and he's in sixth grade and was having Charlie around you, something that helped you notice your differences more. Do you think having a comparison?

Grace Kidwell: 11:03

Yes, definitely, because Charlie was always the one who could just jump right into any conversation, or whenever we went somewhere that had a bunch of other people, he would just run off with a bunch of other boys, and he was just much better at communicating than I was, and he always just seemed more enthusiastic about social situations than I was.

Jessica Kidwell: 11:34

I can remember you coming to me and saying why is it so easy for Charlie to make friends? Can you remember that feeling?

Grace Kidwell: 11:42

I mean, I can remember that feeling. I don't think I remember specifically me doing that, but I remember that feeling.

Jessica Kidwell: 11:51

Was it helpful to have someone a little more social around you sometimes, or not so much.

Grace Kidwell: 11:58

I think sometimes it did help because I feel like I remember sometimes him kind of helping me start talking to people, or maybe you making him help me start talking to people.

Jessica Kidwell: 12:12

I mean, I don't think it matters the why. It could have been either way. So you said that it didn't scare you at all, which is so good for me to hear. You are 15 and being 15 means you are full of emotions and trying to figure out your place in the world and who you are. Do you think that being autistic makes any part of that harder?

Grace Kidwell: 12:44

Well, I would have to say this is probably the hardest time to have some form of autism in my entire life, because already I have a bunch of hormones going wild and I've started high school, which means there's a bunch of new people that I'm meeting and this would probably be a good time to know how to make friends easily and I don't, so that's definitely made it harder. There have definitely been times when I have felt like I don't have any friends, even though I do. But yeah, this is definitely a very hard time to have autism or Asperger's.

Jessica Kidwell: 13:30

Yeah, well, being different in any way, shape or form is hard when you are a teenager. Being a teenager is pretty much about conforming, and as much as many of us want to be unique, sometimes you want to be like everyone else. Yes, I do wonder, though there are parts of the way autism shows up in your personality. As an outsider looking at you, the way that I see autism in you could sometimes be seen as a positive. With being a teenager, can you think of any of your personality traits that you attribute to being autistic that might help you a little bit in the teenager world?

Grace Kidwell: 14:32

What I'm thinking about right now is I'm a little bit more cautious to do things, so I feel like the impulsiveness that usually comes with being a teenager is maybe a little bit reduced in me. So I don't think at any point I'm going to do anything crazy, and even if I did, it probably wouldn't be awful.

Jessica Kidwell: 15:00

One of the things your dad and I have talked about amongst ourselves is perhaps the rigidness and the preference to be a rule follower is something that isn't necessarily a bad thing to have happening with your teenager, because there is a rebelliousness that is very typical of this age and developmentally appropriate, that you don't necessarily seem to have as strong in you as I see some of your peers and their parents struggling with.

Grace Kidwell: 15:38

I have noticed that I'm not nearly as much of a rule follower as I used to be. I think I have a little bit of rebelliousness, but just not as much as other people my age.

Jessica Kidwell: 15:53

What kind of rebelliousness do you think you might be?

Grace Kidwell: 15:56

showing I don't know. I just don't feel like I'm as much of a rule follower as I was in elementary school.

Jessica Kidwell: 16:06

I was also wondering if peer pressure. Do you think peer pressure impacts you with your cautiousness as much as maybe other kids who are less cautious than you? Do you feel like you need to keep up with your peers a lot?

Grace Kidwell: 16:27

I would say I'm pretty resistant to peer pressure. I would probably only give in if they didn't stop pestering me for several days. Yeah, so I'd say that yeah, I'm just more resistant to peer pressure than other kids my age.

Jessica Kidwell: 16:45

Okay, and If it's okay, I want to push you a little bit to talk about some of the other ways that maybe autism shows up in your life, that you're just learning about and Through the process of this podcast, I'm also learning a lot about it. So I Some of this might be brand new to you and you might not necessarily be able to answer yes or no, but I'm just wondering. So we talked about the fact that you are more cautious. It's hard for you to Know how to interact in social situations. You have a hard time with change and you like to have Routine so far, is all of that accurate.

Jessica Kidwell: 17:36

Yes, all those accurate. Okay, so some of the other things as I'm learning more about autism, sound sensitivity, can we talk a little bit about? Yes, we can. Sound sensitivity now. Do you remember being little and being sensitive to certain sounds?

Grace Kidwell: 18:03

Yes, yes, I do, I remember being, yeah, I remember being sensitive to, I mean, a Good amount of loud noises, can you?

Jessica Kidwell: 18:14

maybe think of an example.

Grace Kidwell: 18:18

And then you can. You can confirm these if I'm if I'm incorrect About any of these. But I think I had a fun. I think I had some toys that I didn't like cuz they're really loud. I remember like Actually we might still have this. I remember we had like a Like a, like a stuffed bear that like sang the happy birthday song.

Jessica Kidwell: 18:44

Yes.

Grace Kidwell: 18:45

I remember being terrified of that and I also had like this ball that like it would like bounce up and down on its own, but it was like it didn't bounce up and I just kind of like banged on the floor basically and I think it talked and that was. That was not fun. And then also what else? I feel like Probably the vacuum cleaner. I would guess that that probably also Wasn't that great, I think. The hair dryer to the hair dryer oh, thunderstorms, that was a big one. I hated thunder. That took a really long time for me to get over that fear.

Jessica Kidwell: 19:33

Yeah, can you remember Anything that helped you get over that fear?

Grace Kidwell: 19:41

Well, I mean Linda, she was the one that I worked the most on trying to get over it. I mean I can't remember any specifics. I remember we also had like a game that I used to play.

Jessica Kidwell: 19:52

Yes, Jamma Sam, sam, thunder lightning isn't rightening. I Also remember so, in addition to toys like that bear. You reference that bear when Something that wasn't supposed to talk would talk would sometimes Really freak you out.

Grace Kidwell: 20:17

Oh wait, I remember. Yeah, now I remember. I have another memory of when I was in preschool, I think. Once a year we would have like a puppet show. I totally forgot what it was about, do you remember?

Jessica Kidwell: 20:32

what it was about. It was the fire safety. It was fire safety.

Grace Kidwell: 20:35

Fire safety puppet show yes it was puppet show and it's about fire safety and I think we would have it every year and a lot of the other preschool kids really liked it. And then there was me. I was terrified of those puppets the first year we did it. I was so scared that, like I couldn't even watch the show. I had to go into a different classroom because I was just so scared. And then I think I remember the next year they made me sit and watch the show, I guess to kind of try and get over my fears. And then, after the show and once everyone had left, they had me go over and look at the puppets after they were like, done using them. They just had me go, look at the puppets and said, look, they're just like pieces of cloth, they're not going to hurt you?

Jessica Kidwell: 21:28

Do you feel like? Do you remember that? Helping Understanding how? I don't think so, I also feel like maybe that would have been something helpful before the puppet show as opposed to after, maybe.

Grace Kidwell: 21:40

Yeah, so that was not fun.

Jessica Kidwell: 21:44

Right. So one of my memories is that, like the thought of going to Disney or to go to any theme park where there would be characters in costume.

Grace Kidwell: 21:57

Yeah, that too.

Jessica Kidwell: 21:58

Lots of people were like oh, I bet you guys would love to go to I don't know Six Flags or whatever. Let's talk about the mascot of your elementary school.

Grace Kidwell: 22:11

Oh, yes, so at our elementary school our mascot was a dolphin named Bubbles. So yeah, bubbles the dolphin was our mascot and like we would have like pep rallies and like ice cream socials, those kind of things and pretty often, oh, and then also like concerts and stuff, and pretty often at those events there would be a person dressed in a full body costume of Bubbles the dolphin. And yeah, I just from a very young age, I just did not like people in full body costumes. If I remember, I was okay with people like just in, like the head part or without the body, or just the body part without the head, but when it was all together, it was just I couldn't do it. I remember being in New York one time and we were in Times Square and there's always a bunch of like random people in costumes in Times Square, so that was rough.

Jessica Kidwell: 23:19

Do you remember that we, because we had some inside infirm, we had some inside connections at the elementary school and I was able to take the costume and we had an entire session with Linda. Do you remember that?

Grace Kidwell: 23:36

Yes, I remember having the giant cardboard box with the dolphin costume and I remember did.

Jessica Kidwell: 23:43

I put it on or did you put it on? I put it on from beginning to end because I think I put on the head but you put on the whole thing Right and then we put you in the head to just have you kind of experience it. No, luckily that was early in Bubbles life, so not 5,000 heads have been in it at that point, so it was a little more sanitary. Did that process of watching me get in and out of it help you? I think?

Grace Kidwell: 24:11

I think I think it did, because I remember I think it was second grade that I finally started to like accept that, like this, there's a person inside of this costume, it's not just a creepy, weird dolphin thing that's walking around. But yeah, second grade was when I started to get over the fear. And then, yeah, by the end of second grade I think, I think I was good, okay, and I think that's also when you. That was when you started being Bubbles, because then from then on, you were, you were Bubbles pretty often, which I mean that did start to get kind of embarrassing.

Jessica Kidwell: 24:46

But right then it went from being terrifying to just regular cringe, right.

Grace Kidwell: 24:53

Yes, yeah, and then some of, and then yeah, so Bubbles had like a girlfriend or something. He had like a girlfriend that was another dolphin named Waverly. I don't know when that started, that was in like fourth grade or something. But yeah, and then like you or you and like your friends, like Caroline or Sarah Jeffries, like your friends would dress up as Waverly, so yeah, and then you just like walk around together, so that was. That was also just kind of cringe, cringe.

Jessica Kidwell: 25:28

Yeah, cringe. Level 10 for sure, but I'll take a cringe level 10 over your mom just being completely embarrassing, as opposed to fear level a million, because you are terrified. I'll take embarrassing you over terrifying you any day of the week, all right, and then one last area of sound that I want to cover that plagues you still to this day.

Grace Kidwell: 25:55

Oh well, I think I know what you're going to say and I think this is a much more recent development. This started, I think it was, in the summer of 2020. I don't know why, but I think I'm just assuming what you're about to say.

Jessica Kidwell: 26:12

So I like that you're assuming. What is it? What do you think it is? Is it the leaf flowers?

Grace Kidwell: 26:16

Yes, it's the leaf flowers. Yeah, so it's a very recent development. It didn't start until like summer 2020. I don't even know why, but one day I just woke up and all of a sudden I just heard a bunch of leaf blowers and I realized this is probably the worst noise in the entire world. And yeah, ever since then, the leaf blowers have plagued me almost every day of the year, especially in the fall, because that's when they're the most active and the spring and the summer Mostly it's just the winter that they're not here.

Jessica Kidwell: 26:54

And would you say it scares you or does it enrage you? It does not.

Grace Kidwell: 26:59

It doesn't scare me at all, it just enrages me because I mean, this morning I heard them right when I woke up, at like 8am, which I think. I've even heard them at like 7 30am before, and they, what I've noticed is they usually go into like 6 or 7pm, so it's most of the day that they're going and, yeah, it's not fun, especially when I had to do online school and I had to listen to them all day, every day. That was not fun.

Jessica Kidwell: 27:32

I think that the hatred of it really ramped up during the pandemic, when we were at home all the time because you could never get away from it.

Grace Kidwell: 27:41

Yes.

Jessica Kidwell: 27:42

Because Monday through Friday when you're at school, they often come, because now I notice it all the time when they come to, because I had almost trained myself to be ready for the rage. You also find them wildly annoying too. I don't love it, for sure, for sure, for sure. But mostly I have a knee-drick reaction of waiting for you to start raging anytime you hear it.

Grace Kidwell: 28:10

Yeah, I'm sorry At this point I just I don't even know if I can control it, just I don't know. It's just so annoying.

Jessica Kidwell: 28:19

You're not alone in that, by the way. Not at all. I did an entire episode about it. I don't know if you know that. Yeah, it's. There's a term in the neurodivergent world called misophonia, which is when certain sounds impact you more than it impacts typical neurotypical people, and the example I used was leaf blowers. Yeah, so, speaking of a previous episode, how do you feel about this podcast? And lots of times when I tell the story of why I'm interested in this field, in this topic, the very first thing people will ask me is well, how does your daughter feel about you doing this?

Grace Kidwell: 29:11

Okay, well, I mean, I feel I feel fine that she's doing it. Sometimes it's a little cringe just to listen to her voice. Well, wait, never mind, I don't actually listen to the podcast because of that fact of that. It would be cringe to listen to my mom's voice for like an hour. So, yeah, I don't actually listen to the podcast, but I'm fine with her doing it. But yeah, just on the actual topic of the podcast, just bringing awareness to neurodivergent people, I think that that's. I think that that's a great, I think that's a great message to be talking about and I think that there's more and more people that are bringing awareness to neurodivergence and I think that you're contributing to that.

Jessica Kidwell: 30:10

Oh my God, just super clarification. When you say the sound of my voice is cringe, is that because it's like a leaf blower or just because you're 15 and I'm your mom?

Grace Kidwell: 30:22

I think it's just because I'm 15 and you're my mom.

Jessica Kidwell: 30:28

Okay, good, that's good, because that would be really upsetting to know if I was one of the sounds that caused you to feel enraged. All right, well, before we wrap up, I was wondering if you could share with me some of the things that you have coming up in your life that you are kind of excited about, and what your plans for the future are.

Grace Kidwell: 30:55

Well, I mean I'm about to get very busy. Actually, the last couple months have been pretty quiet because I usually do dance and last December I think I I got like a back injury or something. So, yeah, I have a back injury, so I've been having to rest that for like the last few months, so I haven't been doing very much. But now I think I'm going. It's not all the way healed, it's still healing, but it's more healed than it was like a month ago. So I think I'm going to start doing some more dancing. So I'm about to get pretty busy.

Grace Kidwell: 31:37

I wouldn't say I'm like excited about that, but maybe it'll be nice to have stuff to do again. But yeah, I think we just got back from spring break and I think next week you and I are going down to North Carolina for like a concert thing and then I'm gonna just see some of my aunts that I really like and that I haven't seen in like a year. So that's pretty exciting. And then dance team tryouts. Those are in May. Again, I wouldn't say I'm excited, I'm a little more nervous about it. I hope that my dance technique hasn't gone away, since I'm kind of out of practice. But yeah, and then I guess there's summer and the fun things that we're doing then.

Jessica Kidwell: 32:29

And yeah, what about your hopes for the future?

Grace Kidwell: 32:34

So until like a few weeks ago actually, I had no idea what I was going to do. Like I didn't know where I was gonna go to college or what I was going to do as like a job. But lately I've been thinking about becoming a zoologist Specifically. I just want to like care for and work with exotic animals. My dream is to work at the San Diego Zoo as, like a exotic animal veterinarian or something, so that that would be cool. So, yeah, I've been thinking about possibly going to Virginia Tech to study like wildlife conservation or something, and I've I've also been googling colleges that are good for zoology and I mean, I don't know, maybe after Virginia Tech I would want to go to like the University of Florida, because I heard they had a good zoology department there.

Grace Kidwell: 33:39

If my dad will let me, because he doesn't want me to go to college out of state.

Jessica Kidwell: 33:44

So yeah, I Grace is laughing because my face is like shocking off because when she says this is all fairly new. The last couple weeks it has been amazingly cool to hear, Because lots of times you have lots of thoughts but they all happen in your head and getting you to say them out loud is always like a special gift that we don't get very often, so like it's just really cool to hear you talk about your future like that. Do you think going away for college is something that you could imagine doing? I mean?

Grace Kidwell: 34:25

yeah, I think it is. And also I'm just glad that I finally maybe have a rough plan for the future because, if you didn't know, my younger brother, charlie, basically has his entire higher college and career life planned out. He wants to be like a neuro neurosurgeon neuroscientist. Yeah, he wants to make like. I think he wants to be like a I can't remember like a neuro, something, engineer.

Jessica Kidwell: 35:00

Neuroscience engineer.

Grace Kidwell: 35:02

Neuroscience engineer. He wants to make, like, things that can help.

Jessica Kidwell: 35:06

I think he just wants to help, like make things that can help people's brains work better, just so you know the pressure that you felt as a 15 year old to come up with your life plan because your 12 year old brother has been certain about his life plan. Neither of those things are typical, by the way. Yes, I know, no one should have their life plan figured out at 15 or 12.

Jessica Kidwell: 35:31

So if I can by the way, two years ago two or three years ago, I didn't know I was a podcaster. So I'm almost 47 and I still don't know.

Grace Kidwell: 35:40

I thought you were almost 46. Oh wait, no, you turned 46 last year.

Jessica Kidwell: 35:45

Yeah, it's almost 47. I'm sorry.

Grace Kidwell: 35:48

It's fine. But yeah, Charlie, I'm excited to see if he's still, if he holds on to this plan in too high school and then into college.

Jessica Kidwell: 35:59

Yeah, me too, me too. Well, is there anything else you think, while you have the mic and the opportunity that you would like to share with the listening public?

Grace Kidwell: 36:15

I don't think I have anything else I would like to share. I guess, if any of my family members are watching this hi, I love you. And then if by some chance which probably isn't going to happen, but if any of my friends are somehow listening to this look guys, I'm on a podcast. Look how cool this is. But yeah, I don't. I think that's. I think that's everything else I have to say.

Jessica Kidwell: 36:44

Well, I am so grateful to you for doing this with me. I'm going to try not to get teary. I'm so proud of you. Like, okay, stop, okay, stop Big breath. I'm so proud of you. I love you to the moon and back. I hope you know that.

Grace Kidwell: 37:06

Yes, yes, I do know that.

Jessica Kidwell: 37:09

Okay, um, do you need a tissue? No, okay, I love you so much. Love you so much. Neuroversity is hosted and produced by Jessica Kidwell. Our audio engineer is Jared Nicolay at Mixtape Studios. Jared also created our theme music. Graphic design for Neuroversity by Kevin Adkins. Web support is provided by George Fox. For more information about this episode, ways to support the podcast or anything related to neuroversity, please visit our website at wwwneuroversitypodcom. You can also follow us on your podcast app and social media sites. We are at NeuroversityPod on Instagram, twitter, linkedin and Facebook and, if you like what we're doing, please tell others about Neuroversity and give us a review on Apple Podcasts. There's plenty of room for more curious minds to enroll.