We Should Talk About My 1st Guest Co-host, Gopi Pillai!

Normalizing conversations about our bodies and sexuality can lead to healthier relationships and a sense of empowerment. - Gopi Pillai

I am thrilled to have Gopi Pillai join me this week as WeSTAT's very first guest co-host! And together, we are wondering, are you aware of how your body moves and holds itself? Join us as we dive into the importance of body awareness and why we should definitely be talking about our vaginas a lot more. 

We also cover a seldom-discussed topic: vaginismus in teenagers. And we recount a journey of one of us seeking help for her daughter diagnosed with this condition. We underscore the essential role a pelvic health physical therapist can play and discuss the rising acknowledgment of this specialty thanks to social media. 

Finally, we probe into the declining rates of sexual activity among younger generations. With an open and honest tone, we weigh in on the potential factors at play - from anxiety and depression to excessive device usage and sleep deprivation. We share real-life stories of patients overcoming sexual pain, shedding light on the transformative impact on their relationships. As we wrap up the episode, we begin discussing our Thanksgiving plans, bringing a light-hearted conclusion to our conversation. Don’t miss out on this insightful and deeply personal dialogue - it's a mix of invaluable knowledge and heartening personal stories.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

This podcast was created to be a space for conversation. The topics will vary, but the conversation will always be honest, authentic and sometimes even a little uncomfortable. My hope is that through these conversations, we will build a community of people who might not always agree with each other, but will definitely feel less isolated and alone. So I'm Jessica Kidwell and this is. We Should Talk About that. One, two, one, two. Hi Gopi Hi. Good afternoon, how are you, I'm good, correct me if I'm wrong.

Speaker 1: 0:48

You were just sitting in some traffic and being a little stressed about making it to the microphone on time. Right, I was.

Speaker 2: 0:55

I was. It's one of the hazards of doing home visits is sitting in traffic.

Speaker 1: 1:01

Well, I want you to take a deep breath and relax, because this is supposed to be fun. It's always fun talking to you. All right For those listening. Welcome to the first official guest co-host of we Should Talk About that, season five. Now, in order to be a guest co-host, you have to have a personal relationship and rapport with me. That is the gatekeeping that I do. I'm sorry. I'm open to anyone giving me topic ideas, but not anyone can sit behind the mic with me. So, gopi, I feel so honored I mean, I was so honored that you said yes. Now, full disclosure. I do want to bring new listeners up to date on how you and I quote unquote know each other. You were a pandemic interview for the previous iteration of we Should Talk About that and we took a trip to vagina town for longtime listeners. That was the title of that episode. It's worth looking up. It's a 2020 episode. Gopi, why on earth did we seek you out for a trip to vagina town?

Speaker 2: 2:22

I don't know, maybe I'm the best vagina town tour guide in town.

Speaker 1: 2:27

I will probably, but also you're uniquely qualified. Please tell the listeners a little bit about your background.

Speaker 2: 2:36

I am a pelvic health physical therapist and I've been doing this for about 20 years more than 20 years now and I treat all sorts of pelvic floor dysfunction in all genders and I treat right now I'm treating a lot of postpartum women in the DMV Okay, Well, I was approached with a topic at the farmer's market.

Speaker 1: 3:05

You know, you just never know where the topic requests will come from. But I was in the farmer's market looking to buy I think it was some biscuits. I think I was going to like the bakery truck and this woman said this might be a little bit TMI, but I think you need to do an episode on pelvic floor therapy. I had to break it to her that, well, we already have done an episode on pelvic floor therapy, but I didn't take it personally because, as I mentioned, it was way back in 2020. I mean, no one can listen to all 265 episodes. If we should talk about that, for God's sakes, although I would be open to it. And she was sharing with me about how she is over 50 and seeing a pelvic floor therapist for the very first time, and she was floored. Ha ha. You like how I did that? Ha ha. She was floored by how she had never heard about what it was and how effective it was. Do you hear that a lot?

Speaker 2: 4:14

I do, I do. I think there are quite a few people who are shocked at the results.

Speaker 1: 4:20

Yeah, what would you say are the most rapid results that people see when they start a journey with a pelvic floor therapist?

Speaker 2: 4:32

That's a really great question. I'd say the fastest results are usually just body awareness, just being aware that how you hold and move and care for your body, what you give in as input is what you get out as output. Do you know what I mean? That idea that we, especially with these new moms and moms in general the idea of self-care, not being selfish and taking care of yourself and your body. I think it's the fastest thing that people learn immediately, especially when there's pain involved. When there's pain involved, one of the first conversations I have with people is about deep breathing some kind of breathing is involved and mindfulness. I think that is very quickly translated to oh, I need to take time out of my life and out of my busy schedule to take care of myself so that I'm not in pain, so that it's a positive effect on how I can care for my family.

Speaker 1: 5:40

I think that's the fastest thing that people realize, I imagine that the pain aspect is such a cyclical problem for pain all over our bodies. But if we are talking specifically about the vagina and if you are in pain down there, the amount of tension you must hold in your entire body has to have a cascading effect.

Speaker 2: 6:07

Yes, it's the center of your body, right. It's like, if you think about that area, it controls everything above it, everything below it. In Eastern medicine they call it your emotional chakra, and it makes sense because the part of your nervous system that's responsible for fight or flight and emotions and kind of your reactivity comes out right in front of your sacrum. So kind of right in that area, so it's really there's really a lot of like emotional holding, chronic tension, chronic holding that can happen from pain in that area.

Speaker 1: 6:41

I love that you said that you are seeing a lot of new moms because, as I mentioned, the person who approached me is in her 50s and so we're talking about her not discovering these techniques until menopause. Are you also seeing a lot of increase in menopausal, post-menopausal women coming in to maybe address something that has been long-standing?

Speaker 2: 7:12

Yes, but I don't think that it's enough.

Speaker 2: 7:14

And it's interesting that you even bring up menopause and perimenopause. I took a course this weekend on perimenopausal transitions and pelvic health and it was fascinating, fascinating, and the biggest thing I learned is that doctors don't learn this Right. I'm really hoping that. What I was thinking about, what I was kind of reflecting on this weekend, is that I'm really hoping that this whole generation of women who is seeing pelvic health therapists now because they've had babies they're and you know, we're not people are not having are 19, having babies, right, they're in their 30s and 40s, so they're a little closer to perimenopause and menopause than they think. So I'm hoping that this translates to them remembering the positive benefits, postpartum and thinking of it as an option when they are in menopause, and telling their mothers and their mother-in-laws about the fact that we can help, things can help, there's lots of things that can help and that they don't have just have to be that generation that, just like, lives with it, lives with the leakage, lives with the pain, so on and so forth.

Speaker 1: 8:25

There seems like that's been a lot of just living with it historically and I think, if I recall when we, when we first met, the number of OBGYNs that you had to educate about these modalities and options for women is disconcerting to say the least, that the doctors whose specialty is the plumbing and makeup of the female body are unaware of some of the mechanics.

Speaker 2: 9:02

Well, I would say that is true. That was true when I first started 20 years ago, but I'm so happy that it's becoming a household thing now. I think pelvic every doctor knows a pelvic health. Every OBGYN, I should say, knows a pelvic health physical therapist now, and if they don't, they should, but I think they do. I think the word is spreading over all these years and 20 years ago I really had to educate a lot of doctors. They had no idea what I was talking about In Brooklyn, new York, had no idea what I was talking about when I said I'm a pelvic health physical therapist. And now you know and you got to love social media. I think that's one of the best things that's happened for women to support other women is that these things. People are getting educated from Instagram and that's okay.

Speaker 1: 9:50

Yeah, instagram's like our new quilting circle. I think women used to gather and quilt and that's when they would share nuggets of wisdom and pass it on. Now we have Instagram, which is not really a quilting circle, but it's like the version of it. Maybe it's part of the new modern village.

Speaker 1: 10:11

Yes, the modern village. I love it. So that was how we first met is. We were talking about this back in 2020, and then, when someone approached me about this being a topic for the new iteration of Weestat, I thought to myself I should probably revisit, because I think it is definitely a topic that people don't talk about enough. However, I have one more personal connection to you, which has led us to be more than just guest and host and more I felt comfortable just calling you a co-host. So I want to first make a blanket statement that everything I am about to share has been approved by the person that I am about to share and, in fact, she wished that she could be a part of this recording today.

Speaker 1: 11:05

However, her school schedule did not allow for it. So I want to relieve you, gopi, of any concerns about privacy and relieve all listeners about privacy. So I reached out to you because my daughter, grace, who was 16 at the time when I reached out to you, was diagnosed. Well, I guess technically it was a suspicion of, but she received an order from her GYN it was a nurse practitioner to see a pelvic floor therapist because she had suspected vaginismus. Now, mom, brain turned on and you immediately start like scrolling through your mental rolodex of who do I know, who do I know, who do I know? Because the thought of just taking her to any old pelvic floor therapist made me a little nervous. So I, of course, immediately reached out to you and you came to my house, because that is a service you provide, and I would like to talk about the process, not specifically, but most importantly, the outcome. First of all, for those who aren't aware, can you define what vaginismus is?

Speaker 2: 12:35

So, technically, vaginismus is the spasm of the outer one-third of the pelvic floor, and what that can look like is pain upon insertion. And that insertion can be anything. It could be penis, fingers, toys, tampons, anything and it can be severe. It can affect relationships. It can be pretty intense.

Speaker 1: 13:01

And for the purposes of grace, this was a tampon issue and as a teenager is getting more and older and more busy and life is happening, the thought of having to wear a pad day in and day out was very bothersome to her and she was trying to move into feeling comfortable using a tampon and was really, really struggling. And we had a couple of visits to the OB and then that is when they decided there should be a pelvic floor therapist brought in and that is when I reached out to you. Now you said to me pretty quickly I will be very surprised if she actually has this. You had some doubt that a 16-year-old was having clinical vaginismus, right? Yes, why?

Speaker 2: 14:03

Because I could imagine that I was a teenager myself. I figured out how to put a tampon on myself. It's really hard. It's hard. You don't know what you're doing, you don't know where you're going with it, you don't know how to kind of control your body. And so there are so many more teenagers who go through that than have this diagnosis of primary dysparnia.

Speaker 2: 14:30

Dysparnia is the definition of the pain with intercourse. So in this case it wasn't intercourse but insertion. And there's primary and there's secondary. Primary means, like it happens at the very start, when you're first starting to do all these things. And then secondary means that like you have no pain upon insertion of any of those things, but then all of a sudden at some point in your life you have pain and I just have a hard time. Just the way she was describing it to me, that she was having a difficult time doing these things. It would just have been just a surprise to me that if she actually had it, I could just see that it was the idea of understanding her body, understanding angles, where things are, how things go, how things move, anatomy and physiology.

Speaker 1: 15:20

And this is a household that is not uncomfortable about talking about anatomy and physiology and to get a little bit more global and a little less specific about this one person, but just globally. You know, I've had conversations with my friends about just not knowing how to appropriately prep or talk to our teens about using tampons and it's kind of like this whole. Good luck to you, Good luck, here's your box and you know, if you have any problems, let me know.

Speaker 1: 16:01

And then also praying that they don't come out, because you're like what am I going to do? How am I going to help them? So we all kind of muddled through it ourselves. But as a mom I felt super unprepared on how to proceed if the muddling wasn't working.

Speaker 2: 16:22

Yes, and I have a nine year old daughter, so I'm glad I was able to help yours.

Speaker 1: 16:29

Might be different when it's the mom. I don't know, I don't know. And Grace came out of this experience and she said to me mom, I wish every single teen girl could have access to the information that I got today. She's like I feel so comfortable, I feel so knowledgeable, I want to talk about my vagina and I could talk about it all day long. I love that, I love that. And I was like, okay, I mean, I'm in, I'm in, let's talk about it as much as you want to talk about it. And I'm not going to lie, it dominated the conversation for I'd say, half a day where she just was like and then I learned this, and then I learned that and it was just so helpful and also, with permission of Grace, she had. She made the connection that this process of understanding her body a little bit more and knowing some techniques to cause relaxation is going to be helpful to her when she gets older and she wants to start having sex Correct.

Speaker 1: 17:44

And the fact that she made that connection made me so happy because, like, I want her to have a healthy and fulfilling sex life, whenever and with whomever she decides to do that with, and I think that should be more normalized, that the process of learning how your body works is setting the stage for a lifetime relationship that you want to be positive.

Speaker 2: 18:25

Absolutely, and not just, not just for you know learning about your vulva and your vagina and your pelvic floor and inserting tampons and sex and all that, but just also posture you know, mindfulness about what you're, how you're moving your body in this world, right, I think that it's something that's really important. I think I can see these next generations how their posture in general is changing because of devices and sitting and how it's affecting them. I just I saw, of course, on Instagram, where we all get our education. I saw this little post about how you know, when you're an adolescent and you go through growth spurts, you start getting some stretch marks around your hips. Everyone does Males, females, right. We all get this little stretch marks around your hips and thighs and legs and butt when you go through puberty, and this one practitioner was saying that he hasn't been seeing that a lot in teenagers and 20 year olds, that now it's less in the hips, but he's seeing this these stretch marks in like the low back area, because it's where everyone is falling.

Speaker 1: 19:43

Oh my.

Speaker 2: 19:44

God, yes, it's. That was horrifying to me and it and it makes sense, it makes complete sense. It's completely anecdotal, but it makes complete sense. But even just how we're sitting, and if you're sitting in that way where you're holding a device and kind of hunching over, you're then losing a lot of mobility in your hips and your pelvis, which then translates to pelvic floor issues later on in life, or even even as a teenager.

Speaker 1: 20:10

I mean it's all connected and you and you started off the conversation talking about how the that area of our body is the emotional chakras, so it's like literally a mind body connection. I think that people might be uncomfortable with this conversation and and maybe there's a chance people will judge how much I have shared with, even with Grace's permission. But in a way I wish it was just normal to talk about it like this.

Speaker 2: 20:42

Well, we're trying to normalize it as much as we can. I think social media is doing a good job of normalizing it. I hope that talking about posture and body awareness and mindfulness in school is it is getting better. I know my kids talk about mindfulness all the time. I I wish there was more of a connection between mindfulness and body awareness in school. Yeah, Like the mind body connection. The mind body connection, yes.

Speaker 1: 21:14

Yeah, I mean, our kids overall are stressed and remind me, you have a nine and eight year old I have.

Speaker 2: 21:22

My daughter will be nine on Monday and I have a seven year old. Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:27

So you know, mine are 17 on Friday and 14, and I just watched them get more and more stressed. So yeah, learning coping techniques now. Paves the way for a healthier tomorrow. I would imagine?

Speaker 2: 21:48

And this next generation? It's been researched that they're having less sex than generations before. Do we know why? Yes, Anxiety, depression, devices, not enough sleep, I think was on the list. I can't, I'm not sure, but I can only imagine that there's a lot of anxiety and depression happening. Wow, Less social connection because people are staring at their phones and devices. But they're having less sex than generations before.

Speaker 1: 22:19

I think to some listeners ears that might be like good news, but I really think that that is terrible.

Speaker 2: 22:27

It's normal to want to have sex, it's normal to have desire and, to you know, even I mean when you go through puberty it's normal to have those feelings and and anxiety is creating a big problem in terms of.

Speaker 1: 22:45

Desire, yeah, like it's definitely a huge killer of sex drive. When you're talking about adult depression or anxiety, I mean that's definitely one of the warning signs You're supposed to look out for. If you have a decreased sex drive, one of the first things doctors want to do is put you on an anti-depressant and unfortunately, most anti-depressants cause a decreased sex drive. Oh my god, don't get me started on the Zoloft Nam.

Speaker 2: 23:10

Oh my god, oh my god, we discussed a lot of this in our menopause course that I took this weekend about desire and perimenopause and menopause and there's so many things that you can do.

Speaker 1: 23:23

I'm excited that that there was a whole continuing education dedicated to menopause and pelvic floor, because I think Yep.

Speaker 1: 23:32

I think that is Definitely the next Big hurdle is to kind of. I've been watching the Golden Bachelor. I don't know if you have been watching the Golden Bachelor. I hope that I've seen it and I. I certainly am not like a huge Bachelor fan, but I was very curious about the Golden Bachelor and my favorite thing has been just like normalizing sexiness, flirting and, mm-hmm, just making out. Oh, over 60 years old, like I am pushing 50, I certainly don't want to think that that part of my life is coming to a close.

Speaker 2: 24:15

It's not just the oldest woman I ever treated for pain with intercourse was 85 years old and she's. She was like this pain is getting in my way. I have things to do. I was like good for you and we. We got her back on track and Life was good. I mean, I was pretty impressed.

Speaker 1: 24:36

So do you think that it's been 85 years since she was able to have a normal relationship?

Speaker 2: 24:46

No, definitely not. I think she was Rekindling or like starting a relationship later on in life, after she, you know, was married and divorced and what, whatever it was. I can't remember the whole full story.

Speaker 1: 25:01

But she wasn't suffering for her entire life. This was a post-menopausal situation.

Speaker 2: 25:07

I think that hadn't had a sexual partner in a long time. And then she met someone and had a sexual partner and realized it was painful and was like no, I'm gonna do something about this. And I think it was awesome.

Speaker 1: 25:17

This makes me much happier because I was feeling very sad for a minute for this woman. Although you know, good honor 85.

Speaker 2: 25:26

Let's do this thing telling you, I had another patient who was married for 40 years. She was in her 60s, married for 40 years. I remember this very clearly. It was one of my first patients in Brooklyn. She had painful, terrible, awful Grinn and Barrett sex for 20 years and Then for the second 20 years they just did everything else. They were like this is she. Her husband was amazing and I actually met him and he. They were like, okay, this is just off the table but we'll do everything else. So they had a robust intimate life Without penetration. And then she found out about me and I treated her and she was able to have pain-free intercourse.

Speaker 1: 26:10

I'm bad is a Happy ending for sure he was very.

Speaker 2: 26:14

Her husband was very happy I bet. I bet he was very happy she was not in pain and any pain. Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 26:23

That is awesome. I am just gonna give another plug. The Golden Bachelor is worth watching. I watch it. I watch it with Charlie, who is 14? Again, not like we're reality TV show people but he watched one episode with me and as soon as it ended he said, mom, you absolutely cannot watch any of this without me. Like this is wild. Great. Yeah, you know normalizing for him that being old doesn't mean you're boring. So yay, so go be. I don't want to have it, be just you come on to talk about vaginas because, like when I have a vagina issue, I only bring go beyond. Like what, what's happening? What's happening for Thanksgiving? Are you traveling? What's the situation?

Speaker 2: 27:14

I am hosting. I'm hosting my husband's Sister and her husband.

Speaker 1: 27:18

Okay and what is hosting look like like is that you do everything or everybody pitches in.

Speaker 2: 27:25

I probably will do everything. Although my seven-year-old son is my sous chef, he has a knife like a little kid's not like the plastic one, like a real knife, but a kid's knife and he cuts all my vegetables. For me that's amazing, like he's gonna be on Green Bean Duty like nobody's business. Yeah, and he loves it. He loves watching Instagram recipe videos. Yeah, yeah, he loves it. He's like let's make that and let's make that and let's make that. And he legitimately wants to be in the kitchen.

Speaker 1: 28:00

Good, what about you? We are traveling, which is lovely. We are going with some friends to Smith Mountain Lake I don't know if you know it, it's in Southwest Virginia and it is lovely. It's actually a little bit of a reunion, because we first did this during pandemic, like when you had your bubbles, and we went with these friends to Smith Mountain Lake for Thanksgiving in pandemic. And we're going back to the same house, not pandemic, but still with these friends at Thanksgiving.

Speaker 2: 28:39

Is anyone gonna cook or are you ordering everything? You're gonna bring everything.

Speaker 1: 28:43

We'll bring a lot. There is a, you know there's a grocery, I mean it's like a it's. You know not, it's no gourmet grocery, but we will bring the things we might not be able to find there and then shop there for everything else.

Speaker 2: 28:59

My husband's favorite holiday is Thanksgiving, so also Rob's, so I took over the hosting a while ago and during the pandemic actually the 2020, it was he was so upset that he couldn't go back to Boston, and so I did the whole thing for the first time. I had never done all that and I did it and he was like so happy so that's good.

Speaker 1: 29:24

It is my son's least favorite holiday. He hates all of the food associated with Thanksgiving, which is feels like an actual failure on my part, and it is Rob's most favorite and he Rob does a lot for Thanksgiving, like he's the stuffing guy well, I guess it's dressing, because we don't put it in the turkey and he also makes delicious gravy and all of these things and he does the turkey. In fact, I'm not really sure what I do.

Speaker 2: 29:54

I'm mostly desserts.

Speaker 1: 29:55

I'm desserts and a couple sides and Charlie is just like not down for Thanksgiving it is not his jam at all.

Speaker 2: 30:05

Oh well, I mean, it happens right. What about any other holidays that you're celebrating this year?

Speaker 1: 30:10

We are going to. We're actually going away a lot. I'm hopefully there are no robbers listening to this. We are going for a little couple of day trips here and there throughout the entire winter through the new year, so we're actually about to embark on an incredibly busy time of year. Sounds fun, Sounds fun. What about you?

Speaker 2: 30:39

I'm hosting a lot of hosting. I'm hosting Thanksgiving, I'm probably hosting Christmas and I'm probably hosting New Year's too. I do like hosting. There is a small chance we might go to India and cancel all those things, but we shall see.

Speaker 1: 30:57

I feel like that would be information that you would maybe need to start planning here pretty soon, right? I mean, it's been.

Speaker 2: 31:04

I've been trying to get my husband to make some decisions, but I understand.

Speaker 1: 31:10

I understand. All right, Gopi, you are not going to be left off the hot seat of having to tell me and the listeners about your thoughts on the theme for this new season of we should talk about that, which is evolution. Because of all the changes that have happened, I decided that was a great theme for this season, and literally every person who comes on co-host or guest has to say what evolution means to you.

Speaker 2: 31:44

That's a great question. Now that I'm in my 40s, my mid 40s I'm way into the 40s I have realized that I need to start saying no to a lot of people. I think I've realized that a long time ago, but I never actually put it into practice. Yeah, I don't think I can run around and do the things that I used to do. I don't want to. I don't want to. I think that that's part of my evolution is really understanding the limits, not to what I can do, but to what's going to make me happy and what's going to feel good and make my family happy, To really think about my kids and my husband and me and our little unit and what works for us. I guess what I'm saying is creating boundaries.

Speaker 1: 32:34

That is a good change. That is a good evolution. I think I have found it amazing that the older I get, the less and less FOMO.

Speaker 2: 32:50

I have.

Speaker 1: 32:52

I wish we could embrace that earlier in our lives. I spent a little too much time being worried about what it would mean if I missed out on an opportunity, instead of just really soaking in the opportunities that were already around me.

Speaker 2: 33:15

Yeah, I think one of my themes for this year has been this idea of both things can be true. I use it so much in life. Just to think about things in that way. I think that I can feel sad that I'm going to miss out on X, Y and Z, but also feel good that I'm not going to stretch myself. Then Both things can be true and it's okay.

Speaker 1: 33:48

I mean, that is wisdom Go play. That is for sure. That, in and of itself, is why you have been welcomed as a first co-host. So there, you go. Thank you so much. I am so honored. Well, I hope it was fun for you. Gopi, it was definitely fun for me. I appreciate your comfort level with talking about the lady parts. I am comfortable, and Grace is now comfortable, talking about the lady parts.

Speaker 2: 34:17

You should see my kids. They I have right here in my office I have charts of pelvic floors and vulvas and vaginas and penises and my kids. They could probably educate the whole neighborhood.

Speaker 1: 34:31

I love it. We should talk about our vaginas and penises more often.

Speaker 2: 34:38

I agree, we do an awful lot of talking about that in my house and, yes, this idea of feeling comfortable about it, I love it.

Speaker 1: 34:45

Hey, can you wait a second? I have a favor to ask you Can you open up your podcasts app and make sure you're following the show? That means every time a new episode comes out, you'll already have it waiting for you, and I've asked this before, but I'm going to ask again. Will you please leave a review of the show on Apple podcasts? I read every single one and I'd love to read what you think. Okay, that's it, I'll let you go now we should talk about.

Speaker 1: 35:18

That is hosted and produced by me, jessica Kidwell. The audio engineering is done by Jarrett Nicolay at Mixed Tape Studios in Alexandria, virginia. The theme song Be when you Are, is courtesy of AstraVIA. Graphic design is by Kevin Adkins.

Speaker 1: 35:37

Do you have a topic we should talk about? Let me know. Submit your idea on our website, wwwweestatpodcom. There's a form right on the main page for you to get in touch with me. And if you don't have a topic but you want to let me know what you thought about the show, think about leaving me a voicemail. You can call Weestat at 631-4-Weestat, that's 631-493-7828. Or you can send me a comment on any of our social links Facebook, instagram, linkedin, reds, that platform formerly known as Twitter. On all of these. You can find me at Weestatpod. You may even hear your comments on the air. And finally, there is no we without your participation. I really couldn't do this podcast without your support. So thank you for being here, and if you or your business want to monetarily support the show, I'd appreciate that too. Email me at info at weestatpodcom for more information.