The Defenders: Highlighting Reproductive Rights in a Post Roe World with Gloria Riviera

If you are in medical school in this country right now, it can be challenging to choose to be trained to provide safe abortions. It's scary out there. The laws are confusing. The medical profession is vast. Why choose abortion care? And I would just say anyone who has made that choice and who is seeking out a seasoned doctor who's done these procedures for longer than I've been alive to learn their craft, those are the heroes that we need more of. - Gloria Riviera

If you're feeling frustrated by the backslide in reproductive rights, then you are not alone! Despite efforts to raise awareness and advocate for change, you may be seeing restrictive laws being passed and limited access to abortion care happening all over the country. Your passion for reproductive justice may be met with resistance and backlash, leaving you feeling disheartened. But remember, your voice and actions are vital in the fight for reproductive rights, and there are others standing with you in this important battle.

My special guest is Gloria Riviera, co-host of the fantastic podcast The Defenders, which she co-host with Samantha Bee. In The Defenders, Gloria and Sam showcase their dedication to shedding light on the lengths women go to access safe reproductive care and the unsung heroes working behind the scenes to support them.

Gloria Riviera is a highly experienced correspondent and producer with a 20-year tenure at ABC News. Her extensive coverage of breaking investigative and feature stories for the network's flagship broadcasts and social media platforms, including Good Morning America, World News Tonight, Nightline, and ABC News Radio, has garnered her numerous awards, such as an Emmy and Alfred DuPont Award for her 911 coverage. With a background in covering reproductive health care and abortion rights, Gloria brings a wealth of knowledge to the conversation about the complexities of the post-Roe world.

In this episode, we:

• Unveil the layers of the abortion debate and reproductive rights.
• Navigate the complexities within the pro-choice movement.
• Explore the intersections of religion and abortion, and politics and abortion.
• Address the challenges of reclaiming language and why "abortion" needs to said more often and loudly.
• Share ways to empower all people to get involved in the fight for reproductive justice.

Transcript

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This podcast was created to be a space for conversation. The topics will vary, but the conversation will always be honest, authentic, and sometimes even a little uncomfortable. My hope is that through these conversations, we will build a community of people who might not always agree with each other, but will definitely feel less isolated and alone. You so I'm Jessica Kidwell, and this is we should talk about that. Hi Westat community. Did you know that one of the most downloaded episodes of this show is one of the least edited, fastest turnarounds that we have ever done? On June 24, 2022, the day that the Supreme Court Dobbs versus Jackson decision was officially announced, which immediately overturned Roe v. Wade, Jeff Buchanan and I sat down at a table, pressed record, captured the overwhelming feelings we were having, and then hit publish. And in the days, months, and year and a half that has followed, millions of other women and men have grappled with their feelings about the consequences of that decision. Today, I have the good fortune to interview Gloria Riviera, who along with Samantha B. Cohosts the new podcast the Defenders from Lemonado Media, which debuted November eigth. The series hears true stories of the lengths women go to access safe reproductive care in post row America, and the unexpected heroes working behind the scenes to help them access that care, from providers to abortion funds, pilots who donate their planes to help women cross state lines, and faith leaders shifting dialogue in their communities. As an ABC News 20 plus year veteran, correspondent and producer Gloria Riviera covered breaking investigative and feature stories for the network's flagship broadcasts and social media platforms, including Good Morning America, World News Tonight, Nightline, and ABC News Radio. Her postings include Washington, DC, the United Nations, New York, London and Beijing. She has filed reports from more than a dozen countries across the Middle East, Europe and Africa in the midst of war zones, natural disasters, extreme adventures and more. Gloria is the recipient of numerous awards for her work, including an Emmy and Alfred DuPont Award for her 911 coverage and a 2017 Emmy nomination for Best Investigative Story on TheCompany Backpage.com and its direct role in the domestic sex trafficking of minor aged American girls. She previously hosted Lemonada Media's hit podcast Nobody is coming to save Us. Gloria, thank you so much for making the Defenders, and thank you for coming onto the show so you and I can talk about it. I'm so delighted to be here. Thank you so much, Jessica. So I want to know why you and Samantha B. Decided that this hopeful podcast was the direction you wanted to take when so many of us have felt a lot less than hopeful. Over the last year and a half. Right. Well, I have to give the powers that be at Lemonado Media, Jessica Cordova and Stephanie Littleswax and the entire team there. Really the credit Jackie Danzinger as well. They have a knack for looking very hard topics straight in the eye and figuring out how we talk about them, too. As the company motto says, make life suck less. So I think when you're thinking about life in America after the fall of Roe and how to make life suck, know Samantha B. Who's been talking about abortion on late night television for so many years, unapologetically. That's a natural person to turn to. And my experience with Laminata covering childcare, I think the combination made sense to them because it is an important issue. But we also have to be unafraid and there also has to be space for being hopeful. And humor is a great way, is a great way to find hope if you can smile about something, no matter how bad it is. And the state of reproductive health care in this country is not good. But if you can take a deep breath and smile, you're probably heading in the right direction. Right. And I think it's important how you all point out pretty clearly that there was no magical light switch that happened on June 24, 2022. That wasn't the start date of the end of access to abortion care in America. Can we talk a little bit about how long the defenders that you're shining a light on have actually been working for women all across the. Long, for so long. Listen, we talked to a lot of people who are very tired and have been at this work for decades. Somebody who comes to mind is Dr. Hearn in Colorado, who's been performing safe abortions for decades. He's in his 80s. There are so many more like him. So, yeah, I think that as we got into this, we learned so much. And one of the first things that I knew, because I covered abortion as an ABC News correspondent but really hit home in a different way, was just how quickly after Roe was passed. And I was born in 74, so I'm going to be 50 next year in 2024. But I've grown up with Roe and I identify as a cisgender white woman. Right. So I am candidate number one. That many could say, well, you've sort of been coasting on Roe. And yes, I went to pro choice marches and yes, I covered it, but I always had the luxury of access to health care. And soon after Roe was passed, so was the Hyde Amendment, which really just cut it off at the knees when it comes to anyone who has trouble accessing health care, which is a large portion of our population. So while you can say, yes, we've grown up with the privilege of Roe, it hasn't been for everyone. It's always been problematic. It was never, ever anything close to a perfect law. It's interesting that you mentioned being born in 1974. I'm 1975. And one of the things that made me the most angry, I think, on June 24, 2022, was when Justice Alito mentioned in his opinion that women will be able to exercise their rights at the voting booth and use their power electorally to get their rights back. I'm wondering, though, with the passage of time and kinder eyes, do I actually need to thank Justice Alito? Because he has catalyzed the you and Mes in the world who have only known a post Roe world, and we maybe took it for granted. I think that's absolutely a valid argument, and I join you in being the last to think I would be thanking Justice Alito. Thank you, Justice Alito. But you're right. And actually, the facts prove that so far to be the case. Right. When we voted on ballot initiatives, referendums, there has been ample reporting on the fact that in the year since Roe passed, abortions have actually risen in the United States by 0.2%, according to one study that's been widely reported. And I read that, and I was so relieved, because I think I certainly felt the pain, as I know you did and this podcast did on the day that Roe fell. But then I was involved in all of these conversations in which people said, oh, we knew that was coming. We've been preparing for that. And when somebody tells me they've been preparing for something that I'm grappling with in real time, I want to know how they've been preparing for that and what the next step is. One of the interesting people that we speak to is a woman named Allison who is with Midwest Access Coalition, and she's been involved in this work for 15 years and actually moved to a pygmy farm for her own self care. She's like, I cannot handle where she was anymore. So she needed to wake up on a farm, which I totally get. I would probably do the same thing after 15 years working on behalf of reproductive health care and abortion rights. And I feel like she, to me, represents the person that we go to for that motivation and hope, because she's still in the fight. She's not getting out of the fight. She's still doing the very hard work. She's looking it in the eye, and she's making life suck less for a lot of people. So the other thing I'll say to your point about Justice Alito is, I'm sorry, do we vote for. I forgot where was that on my ballot? No, we don't. And that's a big problem. That is a definite big problem. You reference that individual who I think is in one of the early episodes, or someone else in one of the early episodes, that I really enjoyed the way that she framed. I'm not looking for allies. I'm looking for co conspirators, which I put like a heart beside the word co conspirators. Because the other thing that I am loving about your podcast is how many ways, big and small, you guys are shining a light on ways that we can all individually become part of the defenders and be co conspirators. Absolutely. I think one of my favorite quotes from the person you're speaking about said was, I need you to jack stuff up with me. I need you to get in here and jack stuff up with me. And so what does that mean? Right. Because right after Rothfell, abortion funds saw a huge increase in donations. And that is wonderful. Yes. If you are able, please donate to abortion funds. Your money is going to incredible causes, and you are helping people live the lives that they choose for themselves. So. Yes, absolutely. But also something that I come away with. Somebody told me that when she left the clinic after her abortion, she was given a care package. So put yourself in that person's shoes. You get a cozy blanket. You get little snacks. You just get material goods that represent somebody's care for you. And I have not had an abortion. But from the people that I've interviewed and my friends and many of my friends, when Roe fell, they were like, oh, I had an abortion. And it's like, why are you still whispering about that? Why is there shame about, like, good for you? I celebrate anyone who is able to make that choice for herself and her future. So I imagine in some way, shape, or form, the idea of feeling lonely or alone in the process can arguably be very prevalent. When somebody walks out of a clinic after having had an abortion, how impactful, then, is it to have a care package? How impactful is it to walk out of your abortion then? How impactful is it to go to your church or go to your community center or receive from a neighbor a meal? All of the things that make you feel that you are supported in your life after you have an abortion are huge. You don't have to have a plane. You don't have to fly someone to another state to receive health care to get an abortion. If you can pay for gas for the plane, that's probably useful. But ways big and small are out. Think, you know, I, since the making of this podcast, I have looked into where do I make a care package? Who do I give it to? I live in Washington, DC. There are many, many places. And I'll tell you something, you'll get something back from like just driving and dropping off five care packages for a clinic to give someone after an abortion that you will drive away feeling good about what you've contributed and you are a defender. One of the other episodes that I have enjoyed, I've listened to them all so far, so that let's say that because they are still coming out, is when I believe Sam talks to Rebecca Tracer. And it's kind of focused on the politics and abortion. And Rebecca says something in that episode that I'm a little bit ashamed to admit. She references how those of us who are supportive of abortion as health care have to stop cringing when we say the word abortion. I felt it even when I was writing the introduction to introduce you. I wanted to call it reproductive care, and I forced myself to mark it out and call it abortion care, that there has been this stigma that you shouldn't even say the word, let alone admit that you've had one. And we have got to kind of take that power back. I absolutely agree. And I also want to give you credit, Jessica, because I think everybody struggles with the language. I find myself struggling with pro choice versus pro life. I think there has been, and this was prevalent in Sam's interview with Rebecca Traister, this co opting of language that I think is so dangerous. So if we look at, say, the word abort and the definition of that, the word abort means to bring to a premature end because of a problem or fault. So how do we define problem or fault? Yes, we know that many abortions happen because there is an issue over the viability of the fetus. Let's set that aside. Let's look at what it means, the word problem. Let's look at how that is defined by the person carrying the child. Right. And that can be so many things. We spoke to people in the reporting of this episode that talked about that were, would define themselves as being pro life. I put that in quote marks, but then grappled with the question of what life are we bringing this child into where gun violence is an issue, where home instability, food instability, education, instability. I mean, there is a long list of things that are problematic when you look at life as the reality of what that birth would enter into, the result of not having an abortion, what would life look like for that child? Right. So I think you and I are a little bit ahead of the curve because people, still, educated people, colleagues, people that I meet through my work, there is still this whisper like, oh, well, there's shame attached to it. And in one of the episodes, we speak to these two women in Georgia. And the crux of that episode is that you can have an abortion and you can feel sentimental about it. You can be grieving over the end of that pregnancy. It does not mean that you regret it. It is normal, especially with these imposed wait times. So if you think about a very close friend of mine who lived in the UK came to visit me when I lived in New York City, she had a big night. She had a one night stand. She went back to the UK and she had an abortion on her lunch hour when she was weeks know. Weeks now here in the know. And it was done and dusted and over for that person, and they went on with their life. Here in the US, these imposed wait times mean that your body changes. So here's a few things that I learned, and we spoke to someone who found out she was pregnant. She was on birth control, getting regular periods, found out she was pregnant at 13 and a half weeks, couldn't get an abortion in her state because Georgia has limitations. So by the time she did get an abortion, she was 17 plus weeks along. So this was news to me. You get an abortion at 17 plus weeks, you are lactating. Postpartum depression is a thing. Obviously, for her, grief was a thing. She went through all of that and she still does not regret getting an abortion. Well, I think that that is such the middle area, the gray area that people don't have the conversations about, that you can grieve the end of something and still know that it was the right thing. That happens with relationships, that happens with friendships, that happens with jobs. Why wouldn't it happen with pregnancy? That it is okay to feel sentimental and grieve as well as not regret your decision. And I think that what gets so polarizing is focusing on, well, then that means that that fetus meant something, or if you were lactating, then that means that that was a real baby. Okay, if that's what you believe, that's fine. But why do you feel like you need to place that belief on 100% of the people around you. I know. And I would even change the word place that belief to impose that belief. Right. Because these are laws we're talking about. These are laws affecting bodily autonomy. And these laws and these impositions have been around since the beginning of time, particularly on. And now we have seen Roe fall. Now, guess what's next on the agenda? Gender affirming care? Transgender rights. It's the same playbook. And Sam B. Is brilliant. I mean, if anyone hasn't listened to Sam B. Ever, please go listen to this podcast just to hear how she breaks down the playbook that is used. And it is a playbook, and we've seen it. You and I are old enough to remember Ronald Reagan. I grew up in a household in which my father was a Reagan guy. My mom was not. Reagan decided to become pro life because he knew he could win the evangelical vote. And he did. Right. He was not pro life before that. I'm using the language that was prevalent at the know. There is space for a political conversation because actually that's what's been imposed on us. We have to have a political conversation. Now, look at Mexico. I mean, one of the things I learned is that Mexico, and my family has roots in Mexico. Catholic country. I grew up assuming it was pro life for sure. Abortions are legal in Mexico, right? They are legal in Mexico. And across the know, we're over here imposing Gilead on very. I'm going to keep my cool, but I can get very amped up about all of this. Well, the politics of abortion is one thing, and the other very polarizing aspect of it is religion and abortion. And you guys do a really nice job addressing that as far as talking to really smart and intriguing individuals who are in the faith community. And I think that something that gets pointed out is that this tying the evangelical point of view to abortion as being a blanket statement about what religion and abortion means, it's just flat out wrong, and I am guilty of it myself. I assume anytime that I see someone leading with their faith that they are most likely not on the same side as I am when it comes to abortion rights. And that's just not true. That this whole history lesson you give on the moral majority and the birth of it and how it has literally stolen the religion from so many people as equating evangelicalism to every other religion in the United States of America. Yeah, it's actually bananas. And it's so smart the way the team at Lemonada broke this down, because even I understand it, and I know that I'm the host of the show, but I had to have it explained to me and I had to do the work of reporting it out. But Sam does this great job of explaining the playbook. Right. This is literally the steps that are taken to attempt to get votes. And guess what? They're not trying to get votes from people they already know are going to vote for the candidates that are aligned with their thinking, but they're going after independence. They're going after you and me. Right? So Sam handles the sort of logistical explanation, and then I get to handle the characters, right. The preachers who have to go to a church and deliver a sermon right after Roe fell. And when I think of that, I think of fire and Brimstone. And of course, anyone who's extreme in their faith are going to be extreme in their thinking about abortion. But guess what? There are a lot of preachers out there who are pro abortion, who are pro choice when it comes to health care. And again, I'm using language that I feel like I need to note that we have to figure out a different way of talking about all of this. But the simple fact that you can go into a church and hear that Roe is never perfect. And so here's an opportunity, and God is with you in this opportunity to build something better, that you can build a divine approach to reproductive justice and health care that makes ample space for abortion and all that comes with it. I mean, that to me, I did not grow up religious. I do not go to church. But I felt something when I heard that, that there is a God out there ready to receive me with what I've really been. I don't know how this has happened, but that culture tells me, society tells me that I can never be one with any kind of faith because I feel so strongly that women should have the right to abortion. Like, I've never felt really welcome in any faith. And now after reporting this podcast out, I'm like, Tiffany, Preacher Tiffany, when is your next sermon? I'm coming. Right. And I think that. Why is that the case? Why has this moral majority and the evangelical white Christians taken the mic and all of these other voices who are much more welcoming are not able to get their space on stage? Yeah, well, I think it's because I've let the evangelicals define the movement and I haven't given enough time to really looking at faith leaders across the country and having a conversation with them. And guess what? It's an easy conversation to have because we're not as far apart as one would assume. If, like me, you've rather. I don't know. I feel like I've allowed evangelicals to have the mic. As you say. We can't do that anymore. That has to stop. Let's talk a little bit about some of the heroes. We generally talked about that there are pilots out there who utilize their private planes to fly women across states. But who are some of the Other surprising heroes you have uncovered? Oh, my gosh, so many. I'm picturing a scene out of a movie like Superman when he's in his suit. He's just walking around, and nobody understands that he's actually a superhero. That's what life is like. They are everywhere. So I think some of the most surprising superheroes that we've reported on are, first and foremost, the women who are in the position of having to obtain an abortion in a state in which it's now illegal. Right. So those women have to find time off from work. They have to ask for help, which I think is such an exciting thing because I think our society has such a problem with women asking for help. But guess what? If you're in a state where abortion is legal, you got to ask for help. So these women who have come out and they've grieved the end of that pregnancy, and they're moving forward first, for sure, they are the heroes, but some unsuspecting folks are heroes as well. These people who are involved in an organization called Elevated Access, and they're enabling women to be flown out of state, donated planes, donated gas, donated time, donated empathy. I mean, those people are heroes. They're figuring out how to get people the health care they need. I love them. And we get to talk to them, and they talk about that moment that they get above the clouds. And it's so beautiful because it's finally this moment where the person who's on the plane going to get the abortion can exhale. And it's like so many people say, when they get above the clouds, that's when they finally feel safe and feel like they're on their way to getting the health care they need. They are amazing. Totally separate from that, which might seem surprising to a lot of people, are the people who are helping women build their lives after an abortion. So in the first episode, we talked to someone who needed everything from the ground up. She tells us she was in an abusive relationship. She didn't have a driver's license or a birth certificate. I mean, there are people in government agencies helping people rebuild their lives, right, and have access to housing. That's a huge thing for people who feel that they have nothing to be given security and stability in the form of housing so they can save money and rebuild their lives, that's another one. And I think if I had to think of a final one, it would have to be. I don't even know the names of these people, but I know that if you are in medical school in this country right now, it can be challenging to choose to be trained to provide safe abortions. It's scary out there. The laws are confusing. The medical profession is vast. Why choose abortion care? And I would just say anyone who has made that choice and who is seeking out a seasoned doctor who's done these procedures for longer than I've been alive to learn their craft, those are the heroes that we. And we need more of you. And I would just say, anyone who chooses that path, you're a hero, and you're absolutely a defender. I want to ask the question with your journalistic hat on, and as a fellow podcaster, sometimes I feel like it's incumbent upon me to present both sides. And I'm really curious how you and Lemonada and Samantha, who's definitely vocal about not necessarily needing to hear any other sides, how did you decide how much balance you wanted to provide in this series? Oh, that is such a good question. How did we decide how much balance we wanted to provide in this series? Well, I think there's going to be a second season in which there will be more balance, but I will share that. We did intentionally seek out people whose minds were not changed, who would define themselves very much as pro life, and we document their journey. And Sam and I sort of disagreed about this. But there is one character that we found who attended in his faith community, this meeting in which they talk about abortion and abortion care. And he believes, and he tells us in this series that he believes that murder is a sin and that you shouldn't kill babies, quote unquote, like God says, that's bad. That's where he's coming from. But he moved a little bit, and I believe he is in the state of Georgia. And we talked specifically about the six week ban in Georgia. And he told us that he would vote to overturn the six week ban in Georgia, even though he still says he's pro life. And the reason he would vote to overturn it is because he has a relative who is a nurse who was able to explain to him just how endanger a woman's life can be. And so he had to grapple with, okay, well, I don't want the mother to die. And if an abortion will save that mother's life, we shouldn't have a six week ban because he was able to see that. A six week ban. And this is where I'm not as balanced as I had to be in network news, but I think a six week ban is totally mean. Most of them don't know we're pregnant. It's ridiculous. So to me, I take that as a win. And the reason Sam and I disagreed a little bit over it, or just couldn't quite find common common ground is because I will accept that as progress. Whereas Sam says, really, you need to have a relative who's in a hospital seeing a woman about to die, to change, to move the dial. And I have respect for, like, we shouldn't be there. But I'm like, well, that's where we are with so many people. And I think that just having that disagreement between Sam and me on the show is representative of an intention to provide balance because we leave it to the listener. Like, where do you. You can leave a comment and be critical of where I am, or you can leave a comment to be critical of where Sam is. Do we need to make space for minute steps forward? Or are we going to blow it all up and sort of steamroll ahead? I think there's an argument that both need to happen at the same time. Right. And we don't want to become that in which we hate is something that often comes to my mind. And I get so enraged by hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is the thing that I have determined is, like, the root cause of all of my rage on any number of topics. So is it ever hypocritical of me to immediately shut someone off when I sense that they are not aligned with me exactly how I would want that there is no progress if we don't get comfortable in that messy middle. And, I don't know, I think I fall in that particular episode. I definitely related a lot more to you, Gloria, than I did to Samantha, because I just feel like that. Polarizing. Listen, screw you for not being here already. I don't think that moves us forward, and I don't know what to do with that. I just know that I think more conversations and more episodes like that are going to be beneficial. Polarizing conversation. Jessica, were you at my Thanksgiving dinner, and I didn't see. You mean my husband was like, well, you came in know. I know. I came in hot. Listen, I think even if we look at it just between me and Sam, and we sort of debriefed that episode afterwards. I get where she's coming. Like, I wish part of me felt more in her camp that really, people, it's going to take that much to get you to move the dial. So I think there has to be space for mean, for the purposes of the show and for our listeners. I'm really glad that we both were not on the same page when we are both for reproductive justice, for health care, for access to abortion. But when you get into the nitty gritty of know, even Sam and me have disagreements about how best to proceed. Do we spend time on people who say, okay, you know what? I would vote to overturn the six week ban. I don't believe it anymore, or do we need to think know until we listen? I would argue in the state of Georgia, you can use your vote to elect people who would overturn the six week mean. It's super tricky and complicated and exhausting. And thankfully, someone like Samby has the energy to keep going, and so I have to, too. Well, you definitely do, that's for sure. So what is coming up with the rest of the season? I believe the episode that just came out today was my Jesus flipped my table, which was the religion and abortion conversation. How many more episodes in this season? And can you confirm yet whether for sure there will be a season two? Listen, I really have come out of season one realizing how much there is to talk about and how many incredible characters there are out there. So if there is a season two, be assured it will be fantastic, because I do feel like we're just getting started the episodes ahead. One thing about my Jesus, flip My tables, which was so fascinating to me, is that the preacher who delivered the sermon after Roe, she is the daughter of a woman who was a single mom, never married, had her daughter at 17, and was ostracized from the Baptist Church. It was a real struggle for Tiffany to even get baptized because there was such societal condemnation of a child born out of wedlock. So I just think that whole journey to then leave the church, come back to the church, preach about abortion like that is amazing to me. One of the other episodes, there are nine in total, and the last episode is a two parter, and I'll just mention two in one episode. We go to McAllen, Texas, and we look at undocumented immigrants in Texas. And I learned that in our own country, there are internal checkpoints, so you would not be crossing to another country, you'd be just going to a different place in Texas. And they would ask for your green card. It means that teachers who go on school field trips need to be concerned about which of their students has a green card or doesn't. One of the other things that the checkpoints do is separate Texas from Mexico. And it is very common if you're pregnant in Mexico, you don't have a green card to ask your aunt or a friend to go into Mexico to buy abortion pills. To buy medication abortion. Right? Misoprostol, Mifoprystone. The laws are so convoluted and complicated now that even though it is totally legal, and I did this, I crossed the border, I went to pharmacies in Mexico. I bought medication abortion. But there's some fear about whether or not I can legally bring it back into Texas. And then what happens? Like, can I give it to someone? I mean, there's that whole debate about aiding and Abetting an abortion. Can I get on a plane and fly to a state where abortion is legal with the pills? There's so much gray area and so much fear that people, some pharmacies are just not selling medication abortion anymore. And it was completely fascinating to me to speak to people who run abortion funds, hear what they have to say about the landscape. That's a reality now for so many people. I mean, if you are pregnant and you are in McAllen, Texas, and you cannot travel because of the eternal checkpoints, and you cannot get medication abortion from Mexico, you're having that child, right? And so that's forced birth, and all sorts of problems stem from that. In the last episodes, we talked to two people. One is Dr. Warren Hearn from Colorado. He's been performing abortions for decades. He is the one that spoke to me about his hope that he has enough people to train. Right? He's not at a hospital. He's at a clinic. So he needs people who want to provide safe abortions to train. And then I think we end on the most hopeful note I can possibly imagine. We speak to a co ed at Barnard College. It's a feminist college. It's a very progressive college. It did not provide abortion pills to its student body. And you think about students, and where do they go for healthcare? They go to their university clinic. The idea that there are young people out there who feel that this is their responsibility and they will grow up. Right. I grew up when I was a young woman, and when I became sexually active, thinking, oh, Roe versus Wade was. Passed, I can get the pill. Yeah, I won't have a problem. The young people today are growing up and even in a state like New York, where Barnard College is located and where nix works, that's their know. You would think it would be easy to access abortion in a state like New York. It's not so easy. It's possible, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come without problems. So to end on this story of a young person advocating on behalf of abortion rights, it just warms my heart, because we need more Defenders. And Nix is one of those defenders. And I think that the biggest tool of power that those who want to take away abortion care is kind of sowing this fear because of so much uncertainty and because it's kind of unknown what the laws are right now based on where you live. That was the blanket protection that Roe provided, was kind of the safety net of, well, this federal law kind of supersedes everything else. And then without that, there's just all this uncertainty and fear. And the beautiful thing that your podcast does is uncertainty is lack of knowledge. And you guys provide so much information on what's happening across the US and ways we can help. And I think that overall helps with this feeling of constant uncertainty. I think it does, too. I hope it does, because I think there's so many avenues to pursue to feel like you're part of this fight. And I think, if I'm being honest with myself, I never really felt that I had a solid reason to be a part of the fight. Meanwhile, students I was in college or high school with were getting abortions. No one was talking about it. We're in a different era now. We're in a different time and space where we need everybody's help. And when I think about our last episode and I think about Nix, who is at the forefront of advocating for abortion medication to be on all college campuses, as many as they can possibly win that for. I take a lot of hope from that. I hope our listeners acknowledge or see that it resonates, that we're ending this on a hopeful note that we hope is replicated on colleges all across the country. Right. If I was in college now, I mean, my daughter's eight by the time she's in college, God, I hope we have new laws in place. But if not, you better get down to that reproductive Justice Club and join it the day that you move into your dorm. Yeah. Well, before I let you go, Gloria, I'm going to require you to answer a question that I ask everybody this season. I have a theme for every season, and I like to tie the episodes together. My theme for this season is evolution that I personally am going through a lot of change. The podcast is evolving. I'm curious whether it's in the context of the defenders or your professional life. What does evolution mean to you? Wow. I think evolution means an editing down, a honing down of how I spend my bandwidth. And actually, I think in the year that I turn 50, for me, it's kind of all about me, right? Like, I have spent a lot of time on other people. I don't regret it. I've loved a lot of people that I've spent a lot of time on. But a friend of mine went on a hike with me this summer, and we were talking about this show, and we were talking about family and personal life, professional life. And he said, I don't think you even know what joy awaits you because you've been so engaged in all these other areas. And if you spend it on yourself, I think that's the gift I'm going to give myself in my 50th year, is that it is okay. In fact, it might even be good for everyone around me if I spend a little bit more time on exactly how I can use my time. I think that is an excellent gift to give yourself. The podcast is called the Defenders. It is out right now and will continue to come out, and it's literally available on anywhere that you listen to your podcast. Gloria, thank you so much for your time today and for the work that you're doing. And please pass my thanks along to Sam B. As will I will. Sam, did you hear that? We're doing a good job. The whole Lemonada team is doing a good job. I can't tell you how amazing this team was. Big fan of Lemonada. Big fan. Hey, can you wait a second? I have a favor to ask you. Can you open up your podcast app and make sure you're following the show? That means every time a new episode comes out, you'll already have it waiting for you. And I've asked this before, but I'm going to ask again. Will you please leave a review of the show on Apple Podcasts? I read every single one, and I'd love to read what you think. Okay, that's it. I'll let you go. Now. We should talk about that is hosted and produced by me, Jessica Kidwell. The audio engineering is done by Jarrett Nicolai at Mixtape Studios in Alexandria, Virginia. The theme song, be where you are, is courtesy of Astra via Graphic Design is by Kevin Adkins. Do you have a topic we should talk about? Let me know. Submit your idea on our website, www.westatpod.com. There's a form right on the main page for you to get in touch with me. And if you don't have a topic but you want to let me know what you thought about the show, think about leaving me a voicemail. You can call Westat at 6314 WESTAT. That's 631-493-7828 or you can send me a comment on any of our social links, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn threads, that platform formerly known as Twitter. On all of these, you can find me at Westat Pod. You may even hear your comments on the air. And finally, there is no we without your participation. I really couldn't do this podcast without your support. So thank you for being here. And if you or your business want to monetarily support the show, I'd appreciate that too. Email me at info@westappod.com for more information. Be where you are. Be where you are. Be where you be where you are. I should love my conservation, love to navigate it