Respectful Disagreement in a Divided World with Justin Jones-Fosu

"I can vehemently disagree with your ideology and yet still passionately pursue your humanity." - Justin Jones-Fosu 

As we approach a pivotal presidential election, the air is thick with divisive rhetoric. Join Jessica Kidwell in a timely conversation with Justin Jones-Fosu, an international speaker, social entrepreneur, and author of "I Respectfully Disagree: How to Have Difficult Conversations in a Divided World." Discover how Justin's unique approach to respectful disagreement can help bridge divides and foster deeper connections. Through personal anecdotes and practical strategies, Justin challenges us to cultivate curiosity, seek the gray, and engage in meaningful conversations that transcend ideology. Whether it's through the power of three or the circles of grace challenge, learn how to transform conflict into understanding. This episode is a heartfelt exploration of humanity, empathy, and the courage to connect. Don't miss the opportunity to gain insights that could change the way you engage with the world around you.

Resources from the show:
More information about Justin Jones-Fosu
https://workmeaningful.com/
TedX Asheville: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml52Brr7AeA

Carol Dweck Book:
https://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck/dp/0345472322

Dan Sullivan Book:
https://www.amazon.com/Gap-Gain-Achievers-Happiness-Confidence/dp/1401964362

Transcript

Jessica Kidwell: 0:00

What types of conversations make you feel uncomfortable? Is it when you feel like you might be judged? Or maybe you don't know a lot about a topic, so you're worried you're going to come off as uninformed? Maybe it's when you think a conversation might lead to conflict or it's too emotionally charged. I've certainly experienced all of those things and more when I have had conversations that have left me feeling uncomfortable. But here's what I know. Every time I have a conversation that pushes my comfort zone, I end up feeling more connected, better informed, and feel like I've grown as a person. And I think that we need to be having more of those conversations. The more we push ourselves into uncomfortable conversations, the less isolated and divided we may feel. So I'm Jessica Kidwell, and this is we should talk about that. Listen to this quote. I can vehemently disagree with your ideology and yet still passionately pursue your humanity. We stack community as of today, October 21, 2024, we are 15 days from a national election for president of the United States, and depending on where you get your news or what social media sites you frequent, we are either already living in a hellscape of disasters that our vote can save us from, or we are about to plunge into a hellscape of disasters that only our vote can save us from. And remember, I live in the suburbs of the seat of power of this great country, so it feels like I'm living and breathing the intense discourse raging on the media landscape day in and day out that who you will be voting for is a direct reflection on the morality of who you are. So let me read that quote again. I can vehemently disagree with your ideology and yet still passionately pursue your humanity. Who said that? My guest for today, Justin Jones-Fosu Justin is a full time dad who also happens to be an international speaker, a social entrepreneur, a critically acclaimed author, and mountain climber. For instance, he recently conquered one of the famed seven summits. His passion for elevation extends beyond trekking. It's mirrored in the work he does as the CEO of work Meaningful, a firm focused on workplace engagement, an inclusion that he founded in 2007. He consults with, speaks to, and trains 10,000 to 20,000 people per year. He is a former radio host and former workplace contributor to NPR's the Takeaway and Justin's most recent book. I respectfully disagree. How to have difficult conversations in a divided world challenges us to focus on building bridges with people rather than barriers from them. And I needed this conversation so, so badly. I think you're really going to be glad that you listened. Hi, Justin. Thank you so much for being on. Um, we should talk about that today.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 3:52

Thank you, Jessica. I'm so grateful.

Jessica Kidwell: 3:56

So, in preparation for today's conversation, I obviously have been reading your book. I respectfully disagree. How to have difficult conversations in a divided world. I have watched your text. I have been on your website, and to say that you are dynamic is an understatement. And this show comes out on Monday mornings. And I am telling you right now, this audience needs a dose of you. And I most certainly need a dose of you.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 4:32

Aw. Thank you. Well, my mom did not like it growing up. Uh, she like boys. Sit down somewhere. Uh, but now I found a place where I can harness my energy, so. I appreciate that, Jessica.

Jessica Kidwell: 4:45

So I'm going to quote you back to you. I'm sure that happens to you all the time while I was watching your teDx, you also reference it in your book a lot. I can vehemently disagree with your ideology and yet still passionately pursue your humanity. If I first seek to be interested, I want to inject this mindset into my veins and into the drinking water of the entire country right now. We have lost the ability to respectfully disagree, and I would like to spend this entire show with you teaching me and the listeners what we need to do about this.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 5:29

Well, I am honor. Um, for real. For real. To share. And I'm going to speak from the heart, because our model is based on our hearthead hand model, and that it first comes from the heart. It's not about some quick fixes or, yeah, just do this, just breathe ten times, which are things that can be helpful, but really creating a culture of respectful disagreement in individuals and teams and communities that foster more respectful disagreement. So I'm excited to have this conversation, and so you can ask any question, there's no question. That's off limits. And, um, I'll be open and extremely vulnerable.

Jessica Kidwell: 6:04

I find that it's a challenge for me to truly be here listening and having that heart conversation with you while also trying to make sure that the end product will be something cohesive for the listeners to go out. So, as an interviewer, I'm constantly weighing that, but I heard you talk about it in your TEDx. Can you talk about how this happens with people all the time, not just podcasters, with the double Dutch example that you physically showed in your Gen X?

Justin Jones-Fosu: 6:41

It's who I am. So, uh, this actually falls into pillar three of our five pillars, which is cultivate your curiosity. And what we found is that oftentimes when people are engaging people that they disagree with, just in general, not even that they disagree with in general, is that we often aren't as curious as we could be. We approach things where we fill in the gaps. So if I say to you, and I want you to fill in the gaps real quick, I'm, um. So.

Jessica Kidwell: 7:10

Oh, me. Oh, oh, we're doing this.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 7:13

Yes.

Jessica Kidwell: 7:13

Um. I am so tired.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 7:15

Yeah. See, that was your fill in the gap. Right. I'm so tired. Right. It's interesting. I recently did this in the presentation, and, like, the whole audience was like, I'm so happy. And I was, like, sad. Right?

Jessica Kidwell: 7:27

Yeah.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 7:28

And it's just like, because we fill in the gaps with those things that, um, we have stored, whether secondhand, third hand information, whether we've gotten from social media or news sources or other things or friends. And that's the way our brains work, is that we call it the dotted line dilemma, where we're constantly filling in gaps. I don't know if you've ever talked to a friend or had someone who they always try to, like, finish what you were going to say, and then they often got it wrong. The research shows over and over again that we often get that wrong. And so when we cultivate our curiosity, we fill in the gaps with more curiosity rather than conclusions. And what does that mean? So, um, our brains work this way. So give you a great example, as you saw in the TEDx, was that Monday through Friday, we take this exit, and one day we're supposed to go straight. Well, what do we do? We end up taking the exit. Why? Because our brains are wired that way. Because it wants to conserve energy for things it thinks it doesn't know. And that's why it requires this aspect of intentionality to drive forward towards some really amazing humans. So when we cultivate our curiosity, one of the things we're always asking is, instead of this double dutch style of communication, which is for those who don't know double Dutch, it's usually like a person swinging two ropes and somebody waiting to jump in, take a breath, take a pause, take a breath, and then they jump in, and they're like, and this is why I disagree with you. Right? Or, uh, let me tell you about x. And instead, we give people a really practical tool called the power of three. And the power of three is really a filter for our communication, because it allows us to have conversations where I dive in deeper. So I'll give you a great example. I say, Jessica, how you doing today? You're like, oh, I'm fine. I'm fine, too. Jessica, that's power of one. Jessica, how are you doing? I'm fine. What made you fine? I heard this interesting bald head speaker. I remember that bald head speaker. That's power of two versus doing all those. How are you doing? I'm fine. What made him interesting? Is there anything else I can learn? And what we find is that most people stop at the power of one or power of two because we can't wait to get it back. To who? Ourselves. And it's not because we're self absorbed or narcissist for most of us. Uh, but it's oftentimes we find people are trying to find connections. Right. Um, and that's general conversations. But we have to be very careful in trying to find those connections that we don't end up taking control of the conversation. In disagreements. What we're often trying to do is we're trying to win. So we're not asking questions, because we're operating from pillar two, where we want to focus more on lecturing rather than listening and learning. And we've been challenging. This is actually something that didn't come up when writing the book, but it's something that's come up in recent presentations, and I'm getting goosebumps talking about it, because we're often trying to win arguments. But, Jessica, what if the new winning was learning m. What if we went into conversations, especially those that we disagree with, asking the question, what can I learn? Not what can I teach them? Not can I convince them? Not, can I tell them how wrong they are? But what can I learn? Whether. About them, whether about their ideology or even about myself as I respond to it? These are all opportunities for us to engage in cultivating our curiosity and ultimately in the power of three.

Jessica Kidwell: 10:37

So, I'm fascinated with the concept of taking the exits, as you refer to it, and how ingrained so many things in my life, and I'm sure everyone's lives are done. Assumptions, stereotypes, uh, biases that you're not even aware how it got there, but it is in the driver's seat. And something that I was thinking about when I was reading your work is there is a effort and patience that is required to slow yourself down from taking that exit, making that assumption that our entire culture is currently not rewarding. Hustle, culture. Get your point made. And 120 characters. Your real time is 60 seconds, like, go, go, go. Uh, I don't know how we unhook that, because there is this whole aspect of we have to force people to slow down. And yet our entire cultural value system right now is built on the opposite.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 11:57

Yes, 100%. It's what's generally rewarded. However, people are craving it.

Jessica Kidwell: 12:02

Yes, I agree.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 12:04

Even though the systems don't, um, necessarily reinforce it, people are craving it. So in our learning experiences, we actually have people do the power of three. And I encourage your listeners, and even you, to ask people this important question. Um, we do this in a session. It's like, what has been a meaningful moment in your life that has shaped who you are today? And, Jessica, when I tell you what we see is we see people. And this is normally like a five to seven minute exercise. People are crying, people are getting up and hugging each other. People are smiling, they're shaking hands. People are listening intently. And what most people say is like, wow, I love this moment. And it's like it was seven minutes. I had one CEO that shared with me, Justin. Like, I've known this person for 35 years, and I've never heard this. And I thought I knew everything in 35 years. And, ah, it's because I finally gave people permission to deeply listen to others in a meaningful way. And what I tell people is, you need to now start giving yourself permission, not from me, but to enact this, because people are craving to be heard. People are craving to be listened to. People are craving for meaningful conversations rather than surface level ones. What I encourage people in cultivating our curiosity and challenging the systems is you crave for it. The listeners crave it. The people we talk to crave it. And so what if we asked more meaningful questions?

Jessica Kidwell: 13:33

Right. I imagine, though, for some people, what you just said sounds scary, because the concept of, again, like, this whole patience aspect and effort, I. The thought of the cruise control conversation that you just referenced, there's an ease to it, there's a shallowness to it, but there's also an ease to it. And it might seem scary for people to imagine in order to get that connection that they are craving, whether they know it or not, it is going to take effort.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 14:11

Yes. And we're just very upfront about. There's two things I'd give people. One a strategy, and one just a principle to live by. And, um, one principle that's really big for us and even our organization. We call it the tortoise principle, and it comes from my favorite fable growing up, the tortoise and the hare. And what we found in a tortoise and the hare is, I feel like I've been on a rant lately that we mislabeled the tortoise. Uh, the tortoise wasn't slow, Jessica. The tortoise was strategic, uh, resilient, 100% right. Tortoise was consistent. And, uh, we only called the tortoise slow because we compared it to the hair, and we saw what the hair did. In our society, there's a lot of hairs. It may look good, it may be flashy, it may have all these things, but there's no long lasting substantive change or no true foundation built. So first we tell people, take the tortoise approach. It's not about being the fastest, having it all together, doing it all the right way. You're going to make mistakes. I still make mistakes. There's times where I still take the exit on people, and I have to go back and realize, well, I'm either apologize if I have the opportunity or two, just chalk it up to a learning experience to say, all right, Justin, before you go into that conversation, next time, go asking, what can you learn? So, um, that's the first thing, is just to take the tortoise approach that you're not going to be perfect overnight. And unfortunately, our society has conditioned people to what Carol Dweck talks about is to be fixed based mindset that we compare ourselves based upon other people, that I want to be better than you. Um, it's not about growth. And when I look at failure, failure is final. So I don't want to fail. So I don't really lean into things that are challenging rather than what I love in our growth mindset, focused is that failure is just another data point of learning. And if I don't know something, I don't know it yet. So, yes. Is it going to take effort? Absolutely. When you learned how to ride a bike, did it take effort? Absolutely. Right. When you got your first job, did it take, uh, absolutely. The best things in life take effort. The second piece is, let me give you the strategy behind it to help with that effort. So we created a formula called one meaningful connection, or, uh, one mc, uh, over w which stands for one meaningful connection per week, uh, where that's just, you build into your calendar 15 to 20 minutes, where you choose to be more curious about people. You seek to be more interested than interesting. And it may be in your community, it may be at work, it could be at home. And just saying, hey, I realized I never heard your story or what's been really going on with you. For real? For real. How's life been? What brought you to our city? All these things. If some of you are listening. You're like, oh, Justin, that's too much. On a leap year, then flip the w upside down and make it one meaningful connection per month. Um, where maybe an hour lunche, that's just twelve times a year. But it's allowing you to have much, many more meaningful conversations and hearing people and giving you an opportunity to practice. It will be overwhelming if you treated every single conversation this way.

Jessica Kidwell: 17:04

Do you think it would count if you had one of those meaningful connections? Be with someone you already know? Or does it have to be someone new?

Justin Jones-Fosu: 17:14

I would encourage both. Uh, I would encourage. Because again, a lot of us are cruise control conversation lists, if I can call it that. And so even the people we know, we haven't asked at times really meaningful questions. Uh, lately, I mean, I've had friends who like, we've been friends for years and they asked that question. They're like, oh my gosh, what you just said was profound. Like, I didn't know that that's something you were really dealing with or processing or working through, um, or that that happened to you. So I think both could be beneficial. It's easier to start off with people, you know. So I always encourage people, if you feel the sense of fear or you feel like this feels kind of overwhelming, start with people you know, love and trust. Uh, and then slowly, after two or three sessions with people, start to include some people that you don't know that well, start to include some people even that you disagree with and do it in a way that you're building relational capital, because those are the ways that we're able to have more respectful disagreements.

Jessica Kidwell: 18:11

So this whole concept of having the conversation with the people that you disagree with is particularly timely right now as we inch closer and closer to a national election and an obsession. I'd say it's an obsession with divisive rhetoric. Yeah, it seems like we are craving this authentic, meaningful connections. However, we are seeing amplified, divisive, um, disagreeable, disagreeing. So I would like you to teach us about the four quadrants of disagreeing, um, to help people understand that you do not have to. To go back to your quote, I can disagree with your ideology, but still passionately pursue your humanity, because I think people get very tribal at different points in their life. But we're especially tribal right now. And the thought of making a meaningful connection with someone who might have a different sign in their front yard than you have right now seems impossible.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 19:27

I've been hearing everybody just start saying things like, we just need to be more open minded. Just need to be open minded. And I've been saying, like, I love the concept, and there are things that we could stand to be more open minded about. But there are things, Jessica, that you and I and your listeners are closed minded on. We're not all just open minded about everything. So, uh, the quote we've been really moving forward with is that even when we're closed minded, we should never stop being open hearted. And this is why this is important, because we have tightly coupled people's ideology and identity with them as an individual. And one of the things that's been big for us is that every person is worthy of respect, value, and dignity. This is gonna be the hard part, even when they don't think that we are. And this is why that statement is challenging, right? Because, uh, I had somebody, I was working with Toyota, and one of the people in the learning spirits, they were like, let me read for you a James Baldwin quote. And they went into the James Baldwin quote, which something says something to the nature of, um, that, you know, we can disagree and still love each other as long as your disagreement isn't rooted in my oppression and my right to exist.

Jessica Kidwell: 20:39

Right.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 20:40

The difference is that he gives that clause and still love each other. What I'm not talking about is loving each other. You don't even have to like the person, but you can still choose to show them respect. Now, how does that operate in this political climate? Um, we, uh, know, or most of us know, that this is done on purpose. Like, the vissive rhetoric is actually a tool that's been studied psychologically. All these things. That negative actually induces more of a response in people, that causes people to elicit heart responses. If people had a chance to watch the, uh, new Netflix, Mister McMahon, he talks about bringing the heat. And he was like, when the crowd is booing, like, boo, I can't stand you. Get out. And he's like, that's money. Because it's caused a reaction to people. And that's what the political devices are doing, is designed to cause reaction. Now, that's not everyday life. And unfortunately, the loudest voices are the ones that are drowning out the media. And I found that a majority of people do nothing want that. I have found that they are often not the loudest voices. They're the people who are having the conversation. They're people who are struggling. How do I have these conversations? And so one of the things that we call out is this thing we call the circles of grace challenge. And it's, again, a strategy to lean into this. And so every six to twelve months, I go to events, experiences, or engage with people in either, which I don't know a lot about, and, or I disagree with. And I go asking two questions. What did I learn about these events, experiences, and or people and or what did I learn about myself as I experienced them? And it's amazing that at the end of every one of these circles of grace challenges, Jessica, I've learned something new. I've learned something new about myself. I've learned something new about the people. I've gotten firsthand human experience. There's sometimes I walk away like, yep, exactly what I thought it was, right. But it's now given me a human approach rather than just a second or third hand information. So if you're going into these days and you're like, I don't even want to gauge, just know that that's not the majority of people. Media is showing you what they want to show you because they want to elicit responses, they want you to listen. And, y'all, it's happening on all different sides. I have friends of all different persuasions who are voting for different candidates that are talking negative ways. And I'm often reframing conversations when I'm having it with people, no matter who they're talking about. To get back to, uh, what's important to you and what's meaningful so you can, even when you're closed minded, still choose to be open hearted.

Jessica Kidwell: 23:17

What is the difference between disrespectfully disagreeing and respectfully disagreeing?

Justin Jones-Fosu: 23:23

Yeah, and there's an other category. I know you touched on that and wanted to kind of go that way. And what we call the full responses of conversational conflict. And you have in one quadrant, what we call disrespectful disagreement, where that's, you're stupid, you're wrong. Why would you think that? You're dumb, blah, blah, blah. It's just very, it's demeaning, it's dehumanizing. That's disrespectful disagreement. But we realize there's a whole other category when we dug deep into the research. It is a category called disrespectful agreement. And disrespectful agreement may happen on two different fronts. One, it could be, I'm talking to you in a meeting. I'm like, Jessica, I think that was a really, really great idea. But then behind closed doors, I'm talking to Sally. I'm like, Sally, what was Jessica thinking? That's a stupid idea. Why would she even say that. Right? And we see this over and over in workplaces. It's that, uh, in the moment, I'm agreeing with you, but I'm disrespecting you behind your back. But, Jessica, we see it on the other side, too. And what I mean by that is you might have grown up in society or situation, or even culturally, where you were taught that children should be seen and nothing heard. And you carry that with you into the workplace. And so you may sit in meetings, and even you're silent, you're speaking in agreement, even when asked about different perspectives, because you don't want to rock the boat. You want to be conflict averse. You just want to keep the peace. But in the meanwhile, you're agreeing, but you're disrespecting yourself in the moment. And so our goal is to spend more time in respectful disagreement. And what is respectful disagreement? It means you choose to humanize others. That you choose to embody the principle that everybody's worthy of value, dignity, and respect. Let me give you one way that you can do that. It comes from our pillar. Five of agree to respect. And we, uh, call it our three fa framework, where you can fully acknowledge somebody whether you 100% agree, partially agree, or 100% disagree. But we often conflate full acknowledgement with full agreement. And so I'm giving you the nuance in that. So Zhang Zhao, Stanford professor, she came up with this concept called thank you because. And thank you because I give it to you in three different ways. Jessica, thank you because, uh, you shared something with me that I'd never heard before, and I want to say I appreciate the way you shared that, Jessica. Wow. Thank you because you said three things, and number two really stood out to me, and it caused me to do a little bit deeper research. And so I appreciate that. Or, Jessica, this was a tough conversation, and I really want to thank you because you didn't have to have it with me. I'm, um, grateful. Now, not once did I say I agree with you.

Jessica Kidwell: 26:11

Right.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 26:13

But in each of those moments, I took an opportunity to fully acknowledge you and what you shared and or what you brought to the table. Even if I don't respect your ideology. This is not about respecting somebody's ideology. This is about respecting the individual. And so those are ways that we can lean into more respectful disagreements, is simply full acknowledgement.

Jessica Kidwell: 26:37

How do you personally, just in practice, to make sure your ideology is not your identity, and instead your identity is your humanity?

Justin Jones-Fosu: 26:53

Yeah. The circle of grace challenge. Okay? That's one of the things, because it allows me to see people from a human perspective. My mom. And that's why I credit my mom. My mom's so dope. My mom was one of the first black female air traffic controllers in the air force. And, you know, as I interviewed her for my last two books, um, one of the things that came forward is I realized that my mom used to take me and my brother to events that we disagreed with. And I'm like, why are we even here? We don't even agree with this. But what she was doing is she was planting these seeds of humanity. She was showing us that even in the midst of our disagreements, even in the midst of different faiths, even in the midst of all these different things, there's still a human being right there. And one thing that I love this statement, this quote, is that proximity breeds empathy. And that's why the circles of grace challenge allows me to operate in those muscles. That's why it's actually part of our pillar, one, which is challenge your perspective, which happens before any disagreement even occurs.

Jessica Kidwell: 27:52

Right.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 27:52

Right. Most of the conflict resolution stuff is on. Like, if you're in the conflict, this is what you do. But we had to say, well, that's not solving anything. It's just, um, a momentary moment. How do we preempt some conversations? And part of that is the circles of grace challenge. Part of that for leaders is we're challenging them to move from an open door policy, which I think they've created while their doors were closed. Um, even we now have virtual open door office hours. Tuesday through Thursday. I'll be on teams three to five. But open door policy implies passivity. If you need me, I'm here. Rather than what we're challenging leaders to do, and every individual is have an out the door policy where you actually go out of your door, go out to experienced people, go out, talk to your neighbors, go out. I mean, I've struggled with that. Right. I'll give you a human personal story. Example, I built my home. That's one of, like, the first 20 or so homes built in this 300 home community. Really excited, very thankful. I started to notice that 95% of the community was indian or indian american. Right. And I love that. But I like more ethnic and racial diversity than 94%. I wouldn't want to be there if it was 95% black. Right. I just like a mixture of people and things, and I started to feel some type of way in my own community. I didn't feel like I was included, didn't feel like I was being invited to things didn't feel like all of these things. It was like a separate group chat that's happening. That still happens. Um, about, like, the services people are using and all these kind of things. I, like, I didn't feel privy to it. And so I look in the mirror and realize, justin, are you making yourself invitable? And I wasn't. Right? There's many times I was walking my dog, and they were like, hey, you know, you and clay pump. Cool. You know, I don't have time right now. And I just keep walking my dog and then go back to the house. And when I realized I was not invitable, I took the next opportunity. So I was walking the dog. I was like, I said to myself, the very next time I see them playing volleyball, I'm gonna take that invitation. And so I was walking the dog with my son, and I saw him playing volleyball, and it was like four on five. And I was like, this is my opportunity. I was like, you don't need another right now. And so then I went out and I played and. And kept playing. And every night they would play, and I was in town, I would go back and I would play, and I started learning people's names. I started learning what brought people here to the community, and they started learning who I was, and I started hearing people's stories, and I was like, oh, my gosh, this is an opportunity. Sometimes we're not making ourselves invitable. So how do I engage in some of those ways to really focus in on the humanity of people is, one, is by being invitable. Two, the circles of grace challenge. Um, and three is continuing to remind myself that even in the midst of disagreement. And that's why I have this little thing I do. I call everybody fam, right? I'm like, hey, what's up, fam? Or, hey, brother. Or, hey, sis. And it's to remind myself to treat them like family.

Jessica Kidwell: 31:05

You're wonderful at giving real life examples, and I think it's important for the real life example, the story about your dad, to kind of show that you really have skin in this game. You do the work of the talk that you talk.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 31:26

Yeah, um. Um, I got emotional if you brought that up. And what I didn't realize in initially writing not only the article, but putting it in a book, I initially attached it to pillar four, which is seek the gray. And I realized it's actually all five pillars, right? And so I didn't realize that until I was like, oh, my gosh. So I'll tell the story, and I'll walk through how the five pillars occurred. So in, uh, 2019, I was going to go to Ghana. I'd been several times. Most people don't know I'm a dual citizen of Ghana in the United States. I was going to go confront my dad. My dad is from Ghana. Um, my mom's from America. That makes me African American. You'll get that joke tomorrow. Uh, no, I get it now.

Jessica Kidwell: 32:16

You are a true African American.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 32:20

But, uh, I was gonna go confront my dad because my dad was not, in my life, insignificant ways growing up. When my parents divorced at four, uh, I would see my dad every other weekend initially, then one weekend a month, and then sometimes two or three years. I didn't see and or talk to my dad for a myriad of reasons in the conflict between my parents. And it didn't bother me when I was younger. It's because, like, I want to go skating and learn how to skate backwards so I can finally, like, slow skate with the young ladies and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, but as I got older, it really impacted me. And I remember sometimes I would just pull off to the side of the road and just start weeping because I felt like I missed something. And in 2019, I was going to go confront my dad, Will Smith style. All right? Not the Chris rock version, but, like, the fresh prince of Bel Air version, okay? And, you know, when his dad came into his life, for those who didn't know, the episode, powerful episode, powerful scene. You can even YouTube it. But dad came into his life. He's really excited because dad wasn't in his life growing up. And he was like, great, I'm going out with my dad. I'm going trucking with my dad, all this kind of stuff. And then his dad did what his dad did and left and didn't tell Will, and he told Uncle Phil, like, hey, tell him I'll see him next time. And, um. Um, Will's like, it's cool, you know, I'm getting married without him. I'm going to have kids without them. And what most people don't know was an unscripted moment. He falls on Uncle Phil's arms. He's like, why didn't he love me? And so that's what I'm going to do. Just confront my dad. Like, yo, why didn't you love me? Like, why didn't you fight for me? And because I have m a really great therapist. I still have y'all get therapy. Uh, make me real clear. Um, I would not be where I am today without therapy, and if I don't go to therapy because there's something wrong with me, even though my kids may say differently, but I go to therapy because I want to keep things going right. And so, um, because I had a really great therapist and a leadership Charlotte cohort that challenged me instead of going to confront my dad, to go and hearing his story. Yeah, well, one of my participants said, uh, came up, and she said it more eloquently than I ever could. She's like, Justin, they helped you turn a confrontation into a conversation. And when I went to Ghana, and I was like, dad, I've really never heard your story. I love just to hear your story, how you grew up and all these things. And as you shared a story, I started asking more questions and, like, oh, tell me more about this. And, you know, what happened with you and my mom? And, you know, well, you know, why didn't I see or talk to you for two or three years? And, um, you know, like, just having these. Just. Just honest conversations not going, like, how dare you? I can't believe you didn't stand up for me, to fight for me. And as I heard his story, it better helped me understand how he got there. Now, I still disagreed with the outcome, and I communicated that disagreement, but it gave me a deeper sense of empathy to my dad. Uh, and I realized, you know, my dad did a lot by himself. Age of 14, he went off to boarding school by himself. At age of 16, he came to the United States. Brief stint by himself. He was the only person who left his village. He didn't really have a solid relationship with his dad. For him, that became a source of strength. And, you know, in ghanaian culture, it's a very, um, uh, matriarch society. Um, and so it's just a lot that I learned. Um, even though I disagreed now, I chose to forgive him, not because he has to, but because I realized that I was holding back aspects of me. Well, actually, no, I didn't realize that. I realized that I needed to forgive him. For me, what I didn't realize on the other side of that forgiveness was this whole aspect of my heritage that I'd been holding back because he represented that ghanaian side of me. And I had been denying that all.

Jessica Kidwell: 36:05

These years, because to accept that part of your heritage would be to accept your dad and what he did.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 36:16

Um, but I didn't think about it that way. Right. That's exactly what it was. That became unlocked because I was wondering, like, why didn't. Why did I never just embrace this ghanaian aspect of me. I was talking about my dad's from Ghana. I was never from Ghana. And that was profound. And so how did I walk through the pillars? So, pillar one is challenge your perspective. Well, talking to my therapist about it and even bringing it up in my leadership charlotte cohort was challenging my perspective. I, um, didn't want to hear his story. I wanted him to feel my pain.

Jessica Kidwell: 36:48

Yeah.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 36:48

I wanted him to know that I was hurting, and that's what I needed him to hear. Um, but they challenged my perspective, and so I chose to go be the student and say, hey, I've never heard your story before. I'd love to hear your story. And as you shared, I cultivated curiosity. I asked more questions I didn't like, oh, that's wrong. Or, why would you do. That's stupid. Why would you say that now? Ask more questions to get better understanding. Cultivate my curiosity. Pillar three, seek the gray. Pillar four, that there was nuanced. Right. That it wasn't just black and white, about, like, he loved me or didn't love me. Right. He showed and expressed his love in a different way, even though I didn't appreciate and value the way that it was showed in, um, pillar five is I agreed to respect and humanize. Right. Um, I'm not saying everybody should forgive people who wrong them, even though I think forgiveness is really about us. But that was my form of humanization. And so, uh, that story has helped me to understand that you have no idea what's on the other side of respectful disagreement.

Jessica Kidwell: 37:52

It's such a powerful example of how it's applicable in so many ways. The five pillars that you name in your book, and, you know, you're excellent at a lot of things, let me just say. But the ability to relate stories, to demonstrate the points that you're trying to get across is wonderful because they range in, you know, a workplace, ease casual interactions to really deep, deep hurt, heart level examples, and the book is full of them. So for more of this, please.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 38:44

Thank you. Yeah.

Jessica Kidwell: 38:47

So this whole concept of the proximity breeds empathy that your mom, who is dope, taught you is one of the things that I think people really need to challenge themselves, especially right now, in the time that we are in right now, because there is. I used the word tribalism earlier, and I keep sticking with that. There is no way to hear other people's stories if you are only sticking with the same people over and over and over again. Do you have any suggestions on how we can practice that?

Justin Jones-Fosu: 39:31

Yeah. One has been man. Well, not man made. But one has been weather related. It's been interesting. So, I live in Charlotte, and with the hurricane coming through, I, uh, have a lot of friends in western North Carolina that has varied political beliefs, very liberal, very conservative, um, in different parts of Asheville and our surrounding communities. And I've been listening and watching the stories of some of my m friends, like Amy Clymer and other people who have been talking about. It really hasn't mattered what signs have been in people's yards. They've been stepping up for each other because they saw the humanity of people. And I hate that it takes a hurricane or a natural disaster to drive us to this place, to be able to see each other's humanity. But I encourage people to take advantage of those moments, because you can start to build relationships, uh, with people that you normally wouldn't have before. People that have invited you to dinner because your electricity was still off, um, or that you invited to dinner. How does that happen in everyday life outside of a natural disaster? I keep reinforcing these pieces of. And they give it in three ways. I give something new. The circles of grace challenge is really big for me in ways for us to do this. And I've learned so much from my circles of grace challenges. One of mine was police officers. I realized I had very kind of demeaning views towards police officers. And I was, like, putting them all, lumping them all together. And so I challenged myself, like, all right, cool, justin, you're gonna lean in for the next six months just to learn about police officers, what they do, what they go through, all these things, and just. Guy did a police ride along in Charlotte at, like, eleven,

08:11 p.m. at night to 02: 41:14

00 a.m. um. And in 3 hours, I learned that they were, like, the guy I was with, uh, my old buddies, Daniel Youngblood, was asked to be, like, seven different people in 3 hours. A psychologist, a bodyguard, a, uh, home health. I mean, I was like, oh, my gosh. That moment allowed me to have a deeper sense of empathy, and it helped me to understand there's a difference between police officers and policing, and I wouldn't have gotten that outside of that experience. And I believe police officers are inherently just the majority, vast majority, going to the right reasons. They want to do the right things, all these kind of things. The history of policing in our, uh, culture, in our nation, has been inherently racist and has not been good for many underrepresented groups. But what I was doing is I was coupling the two together.

Jessica Kidwell: 42:18

Yeah.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 42:19

Police officers are inherently racist versus police officers are good. And times, it goes into a system that may not be good for all of, um, at times, right? But I was like, it gave me an opportunity just to hear stories, learn, engage, talk to people, and realize, like, man, I had been vastly, um, demeaning. And so I was like, that gave me a greater appreciation for police officers and the work that they do and the challenges that they go through and experiences that they have. So, I think the circle of grace challenge is really beneficial because it opens our brains up in learning. There's what's called an inverted u theory. They normally attach to performance, but it's been associated with learning at times. It says there's two places that people. People don't learn effectively. Number one, when they think they know absolutely nothing, which is why intentionality. In the circles of grace, challenges are important. And number two, when they think they know everything, m people don't engage in true learning. And so, one, in realizing, if you don't know anything, take Carol Dweck's work. You just don't know it yet. Ignorance is not a bad thing. Ignorance just means you don't know something yet. But on the other side, if you think you know everything, just keep living right, because things are just more nuanced. Uh, it's. It's simple. Even in my book, for those who had a chance to see the COVID it looks like very black and white, you know, and diagonal. But what people don't realize is a very thin line of gray in between that black and white. That takes some tensionality to see. And so I think that can be helpful. Now, the third thing I give that, uh, I don't think I've talked about in the book. I think it'd be very helpful because I hear the introverts. They're like, oh, that sounds really good, Justin, for the extroverts. Go out and hear people's stories and learn, and, oh, yeah, that sounds great. Um, but what if you consider doing one of two things? One, volunteering. Volunteering with organizations that you might get a nice mixture of people. I learned that sometimes in these informal settings of volunteering, we, uh, making food or providing food for the unhoused or things like that, you learn about people, and these people are veterans, and you hear about stories and perspectives, and you learn. And it just creates those moments where it's not forced, but it creates those informal opportunities to learn about people or something. I was working with one of the headquarter leaders in Adidas, and he shared a story I thought was powerful around. He joined an employee resource group that had nothing to do with him, and he joined not to lead it. He just wanted to learn. And he learned so much in two years, they actually asked him to be the executive sponsor of the group as one of the senior HR leaders. And that wasn't his desire, it wasn't his purpose, but it was just his intentionality. Like, you know what? I don't know a lot about this culture, and I want to learn, and I want to grow. Um, and so these are things I think that people can do and lean into, whether it's a circles of grace challenge, whether it's choosing to go and hear the stories of their neighbors, whether it's volunteering or joining groups that you normally wouldn't join, just to be able to better understand and have a deeper education.

Jessica Kidwell: 45:30

This is a big question. What role do you think shame has in stopping people from being able to be more open minded, be more curious, participate in circle of grace challenge?

Justin Jones-Fosu: 45:46

Yeah, I think shame plays a very big part, and part of that is because I, uh, keep coming back to this place of our conditioning. We've been conditioned to be fixed based mindset people. That's what our society prioritizes. We want to know, are you the fastest? Are you better? Are you better than everybody else? And that's what we prioritize, and that's why we need more of the messages around resilience and grit, because it showcases, um, instead of most valuable, most improved. And I, um, love one of my mentors, Daniel Sullivan. He has a book called the Gap in the gain, and I really think he crystallizes it very well. As he talks about, we have a starting point. We have our ideal, and then we have our progress. And what we often are measuring is we're constantly measuring our progress point with the ideal that keeps moving. And so we're constantly operating this deficit of, uh, what's wrong, what's missing, what I don't have, versus looking and saying, how far have I come? And continuing to allow that to drive us, what the motivational theory does. So when people operate in this place of shame, it's often because they're constantly operating the deficit of what's missing, what's wrong. Um, that's one of the reasons I believe there's such a big backlash on diversity and inclusion, is because it's been positioned as a place of deficit, of, uh. What's wrong with you? What aren't you doing all these things? And, yes, there are things that all of us need to improve on. Including Justin Jones -Fosu who's been doing this work for over two decades. But motivational theory says focus on what people have done right and then continue expanding. Positive reinforcement is more a better predictive repeat behavior than negative reinforcement. But imagine you go home every day to your partner and, and they tell you all the stuff you do wrong, it's going to be demoralizing. And so we've created this culture of shame. We've created this culture of deficit, of constantly comparing ourselves. So if you're operating in this place of shame, it's because of the conditioning of our society. Look at people not as competition, but as compliments that can help you learn. That's why people don't ask people who are even better than them at things, because they feel bad that they don't know it, that they're ignorant. So, um, I'll stop there. But that's one of the things I think shame hurts us. And that's why I keep encouraging people the intentionality of doing these things. Like, I've gotten better at things, I've dealt more with my shame. I've gotten counseling to deal with my shame as well. And it's helped me to lean into more conversations that would normally prohibit me.

Jessica Kidwell: 48:19

So I'm gonna balance that question about shame with a question about courage, because courage is where I am trying to lean more and more into in this season of my life, in this season of the podcast, to kind of buoy myself against this shame culture. Yeah. Really curious what courage means to you.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 48:49

One of my buddies, Joe Mole, uh, he has a thing called brave for a minute, and I love just this concept of what if you could just be brave for a minute? Um, it kind of speaks somewhat, um, what, uh, atomic habits speaks to about doing things that you haven't done and cultivating the habits. Like, what if you just tried something for five minutes? You haven't gone to the gym, you don't want to do it. Like, just try for five minutes. So I think courage for me, means proactively being. It's going to be some redundant but intentional in something that you want to see happen that's positive. It's just proactive intentionality. I think we can grow in courage. For me, courage is akin to the growth mindset. It's willing to try something new, even when you know you're going to fail. And to round this story out, learning how to mountain bike. And I went to the whitewater center in Charlotte, and my first time mountain biking, I fell off a bridge and, uh, I walked the rest of the way with, uh, the bike next to me. And I had this guy who I saw earlier. He was just like, oh, he saw me earlier. He knew it was my first time. He's like, hey, man, like, how was your first time mountain biking? And I looked at the bike next to me, I looked at him, I was like, I fell off a bridge. And without skipping a beat, Jessica, he was like, oh, man, that's cool. I was like, what? He's like, because if you're not falling, you're not really riding. And that reminded me of something that I often said to myself, is that, Justin, if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough. And so part of courage is realizing that we are going to fail. And that's okay because it gives us another data point of learning.

Jessica Kidwell: 50:33

Justin, I want to thank you because you have brought so much insight and applicable examples to this interview. I appreciate you sharing all of your knowledge. I want to thank you because you provide an antidote for me in this world of negativity. I live right outside of Washington, DC, and sometimes I literally feel like I am drowning in discourse and not respectful discourse. So I want to thank you because you provide an antidote. I want to encourage everybody to check out Justin Jones -Fosu His book is, I respectfully disagree, how to have difficult conversations in a divided world. Justin, thank you for everything.

Justin Jones-Fosu: 51:34

Thank you.

Jessica Kidwell: 51:36

We should talk about that is hosted and produced by me, Jessica Kidwell. The audio engineering is done by Jarrett Nicolay at, uh, mixtape Studios in Alexandria, Virginia. The theme song, be where you are is courtesy of Astra via Graphic design is by Kevin Adkins. Do you have a topic I should talk about? Let me know. Submit your idea on my website, www.westappod.com. there's a form right on the main page for you to get in touch with me. And if you don't have a topic but you want to let me know what you thought of the show, you can send me a message on any of my social links, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn threads, that platform formerly known as Twitter. On all of these, you can find me at Wetpod. You may even hear your comments on a future show. And finally, there is no we without your participation. I really couldn't do this podcast without your support. So thank you for being here. Be where you are. Be where you are be where you are uh. Be where you are be where you are be where you are be where you are be where you are I should love my compilations learn to navigate.