Ideagen Radio
Ideagen Radio
Future of Energy Summit 2026: Ross Eisenberg on Fixing Plastic Recycling
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Plastic is everywhere, and the benefits are real: safer healthcare, lighter cars that use less energy, durable packaging, and the materials that power modern tech. But the end-of-life problem is just as real, and the US recycling system still operates like a linear machine built to dump value instead of recapture it. We sit down with Ross Eisenberg of America’s Plastic Makers at the American Chemistry Council to break down why plastic recycling remains stuck in the single digits and why “7,000 municipalities do it 7,000 different ways” makes progress painfully uneven.
We get specific about what a true circular economy for plastics requires: smarter design, reliable collection, modern sorting, and the right mix of technologies. Ross explains why rigid items like bottles do better under mechanical recycling, while flexible packaging like wraps and pouches often falls below 1% recycling in the United States. That leads to a clear look at advanced recycling (also called chemical or molecular recycling) and his memorable “unbake a cake” analogy for turning used plastic back into raw materials and then into new plastics again, over and over.
Then we move to the policy levers that decide whether any of this scales. We talk about EPA regulatory clarity for permitting, the need for credible recycled-content attribution for brands and retailers, and why the bipartisan Recycled Materials Attribution Act (HR 7502) could unlock investment. We also cover how AI and robotics can improve sortation, plus what’s at stake in UN global plastics treaty negotiations for pollution, trade, and US competitiveness. If you care about recycling infrastructure, sustainability, and practical climate and waste solutions, hit subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review with the biggest recycling change you want to see next.
Welcome And Guest Introduction
SPEAKER_01Good afternoon. Thank you, Ross Eisenberg, for being here today at the IG and Global Future of Energy Summit. Ross is the president of American Plastic Makers, American Chemistry Council. So our coding. Our next guest is the president of American Plastic Makers and American Chemistry Council. And he leads the NG Advocacy efforts of manufacturing competitiveness, recycling, sustainability, trade, and permitting reform, working with policymakers at the federal, state, and international levels. Previously served as ACC's Vice President of Federal Affairs and has been recognized by the IN, the Washingtonian and Association Trends, as one of Washington's leading advocates. Please join me in welcoming Ross Eisenberg. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Yeah. We have already talked a lot this morning about recycling, and I'm happy to have the master of this. So, Ross,
Why US Plastic Recycling Stalls
SPEAKER_01uh, you've spoken extensively about the need to modernize American recycling infrastructure. What do you see as the biggest structural weaknesses in the current US recycling system, particularly for plastics?
SPEAKER_00So thank you for that question. And happy to be doing this. So I represent the America's Plastic Makers, which are essentially the companies that take the essentially take raw materials, so the oil and the gas, and turn it into plastic pellets and then you sell it to everybody everywhere for all of the wonderful things we do with plastics, the healthcare, cars, packaging, all of the things that we do. And so, you know, we obviously have been fixated on recycling infrastructure and dealing with what is essentially a system that was designed as a linear system and turning into a circular system. So let me explain what that means. So thank you. Yeah, the system for plastics, the system for all materials, but especially for plastics, was designed to be linear, right? You make it, you use it, you throw it away. And that is how we've been doing it for a very long time. Um that is not sufficient anymore for a variety of reasons. One is customers would like to recycle more. They want to see their products not go to landfills. Um, we don't certainly don't want it in the environment. Uh, it doesn't belong there. Um, the other side of that is we have a valuable resource that we can recapture and actually use to make new plastics out of. And there's a number of technologies that our members and other companies make that can convert pretty much any type of plastic back into its raw materials and then into new plastics again. So, and every time you do that, you're you're saving yourself from having to pull a barrel of oil out of the ground or use natural gas. So it's resource efficiency. Um the challenge is that linear system that we now want to make circular. That linear system is very, very hard to change because there are a million different places along that system that need to change. Everything from what we do, designing our products better, all the way to how we collect it at the curb side or otherwise, how it's sorted when you take it to a facility to sort it out, and the economics of that, and the technologies that are there, which are often very old technologies. Um, and then right down to are the the recycling facilities in place where they need to be. In the United States, there's about 7,000 different municipalities that do it 7,000 different ways. And so as they prioritize how to spend their money, they're not always they're not always upgrading to the technology that they need. And so, um, and then the at the end of the day, just the consumer actually put it in the bin, right? Like so it's it is a everybody everywhere kind of issue uh that begins with modernizing the infrastructure first and foremost, but is going to take everybody kind of pulling together.
SPEAKER_01That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_00It's a challenge. It's a huge challenge. It's a huge challenge. And the more that we do it, don't do it, the less confidence consumers have in us as an industry, right? And so it's it's an imperative for us. We know that we need to do this, and we need to get that number, which is at single digits for plastic recycling in the United States. We need to get it up, and and we know we need to do it. We'll do any, you know, we are actively working to do that.
SPEAKER_01Great. I think people will understand it better.
What A Circular Plastics Economy Takes
SPEAKER_01Great. Um, in your housing energy and commerce testimony last year, you emphasized the importance of creating a more circular economy for plastics. What does a truly circular plastic economy look like in practice and how close are we to achieving it with just what you were mentioning?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, so our view, our vision, right, um, is that um in the near future that we will have, you know, all of the products that we manufacture will be recyclable, reusable, or or or compostable, and then ultimately will be recycled, reused, or composted, right? So that when you when you use that plastic and you put it in the bin, you know it's going to get recycled again. And there's a number of different plastics where that happens at a fairly good rate. Um, rigid plastics, things like your plastic bottles and things like that, they get recycled at 20-30%, which is pretty good for recycling for a system that is a bit outdated. Um, the flexibles, anything that is that is flexible, so your bags, your the pouches on your gummy bears, right? The plastic wrap, um, things like that. And then even, you know, it and then the more complicated types of plastics that are made up of different types of plastics, that stuff is is less than 1% in the United States. And so that's the area where we really, really need to invest, modernize, focus to bring that up.
SPEAKER_01The flexible.
SPEAKER_00Yes, without a doubt. Without, I mean, we have to do it everywhere. Everything needs to go up, but a good place to start would be getting something that is at less than less than 1% to something higher than 1%, right? Um, and the good news is there's a lot of technologies to do it. We just need to, as a country, be prioritizing ways to get these things online.
SPEAKER_01Good. And how long do you think it will take?
SPEAKER_00So there's a number of them in use today. Um, we do it not as well here as we do around the world, oddly enough. So um, for a company that prides itself on, you know, kind of being at the forefront of technology, these technologies which we call advanced recycling, others call them chemical recycling or molecular recycling, um, the key technology there, so the best way to explain it is so it is using chemistry to essentially take the used plastic, take it back down to its elements, the raw material, to the oil and the gas, and then turn it back into plastic again. The analogy I like to use is like suppose you could unbake a cake, right? You add a cake, you could take it back down to its milk and its flour and its sugar and it's butter, and then you bake that cake again. And then you can unbake again and bake the cake again. That's advanced recycling. And we can do that with plastics. We are doing it with plastics. ExxonMobil is doing it in Baytown, Texas right now, they're doing it at significant volumes. Eastwind Chemical is doing that in Tennessee with polyesters, they've been doing that at an industrial scale. There's a number of smaller facilities in places like Atlanta and Akron and North Carolina and elsewhere that have been doing this, and there's more that are coming online. Um, in the EU, there's, you know, has been as there's been as many as 80 of them. So we have less than 10 in the US. In the EU, there's been as many of 80. There's others in Japan and China and elsewhere. This is obviously, this is this is very good technology. The reason this technology is important is because this is designed to handle all those other things that I said that don't get recycled, right? So the bottles and the milk jugs and your laundry detergent bottles, they're handled fine by what's called mechanical recycling, which is effectively grinding it, washing it, melting it, and pushing it back through a terrarium used plastic. And then you can do that again. It's being done. I've seen it, it's very, very effective. Everything else does not get recycled as well through that system. There's different reasons why it doesn't work. Advanced recycling handles those things. It is complementary, it works, it's in products that we're using today. You know, you'd be surprised. Your yogurt cups, your glasses, it's in a lot of things already. Um, there is a humongous opportunity to scale this up and eventually get that stuff out of landfills, right? And so that these things don't, when you put them in the bin, it actually gets recycled now. Uh, and and if we can we can figure out how to close make that supply chain work and make that that that uh function, there's tremendous opportunity there, both environmental and economic, to be honest with you. Yes, of course.
SPEAKER_01And thank you for what you're doing in order to make it better.
SPEAKER_00Very passionate about it. I'm sure you can tell.
SPEAKER_01But I hope you don't uh recycle cakes.
SPEAKER_00No, no, in our house they don't get to the trash.
SPEAKER_01That's good.
Advanced Recycling Explained Simply
SPEAKER_01There has been significant debate in Washington over how advanced recycling should be regulated. What policy or regulatory changes do you believe are most important to unlock investments and innovation in this state?
SPEAKER_00So there's two that we're working on right now that we think are of extreme importance. Um, one is at F uh, one is at EPA and the other one is at Congress, but also the Federal Trade Commission. Um, and they get to really one sort of two sides of the coin. In order for advanced recycling, that sort of new technology to come online and really be to go where it needs to go and actually start handling more plastics in the United States, you need two things. You need to be able to build them, right? You need to, so when companies want to invest in them, they need to know that they're gonna get their permits and they can actually bring it online. And then on the flip side of it, uh you the customers, the brands that are gonna be putting them in their products, need to know that if they're gonna use the plastic coming from these facilities and use it as recycled product, that they're gonna get credit for doing it, right? That that they can put on the package, hey, we're using recycled product and we got it from this place. And those two things are not remotely clear in the federal code right now. And so um at EPA, we have um there's legislation, was legislation, but EPA is acting on its own motion to more properly regulate it as a manufacturing process. It for a while there were question marks about whether or not it was solid waste incineration, things like that. It was a complicated set of regulations that didn't need to happen. And so what we've asked EPA to do is, hey, just tell us what the regulations are, right? We don't really care what they are, just tell us what they are so that when we try to get a permit, we can get it. And so EPA is doing that right now, and that is really, really helpful. We hope they will close that out. And that hopefully will help take care of, okay, you want to build one of these things, at least the regulatory process won't get in your way. Um, the flip side of it is, you know, getting credit for using it in your product. And that is a place where there's a bill that we are strongly in favor of. It's called the Recycled Materials Attribution Act, HR 7502. Um, and this is a bipartisan bill. It has five Republicans, five Democrats at introduction, which in the environmental space is almost unheard of these days. So a lot of bipartisan support for it. We want to keep it that way. Um, we are supporting this effort, it's being led by the brands. So Consumer Brands Association, which represents you know all of the sort of the brands, the supermarket aisle companies. Um they are the ones that are really the leaders of this because they want the clarity too. They want to use it in their products, but they want to make sure if they're using it that they actually can give credit for it. And so they've asked for that clarity from Congress. Um, FTC can do it on their own for a variety of reasons because the FTC has been kind of sort of slow moving. We've been asking Congress to step in on this one. Also, if Congress actually enacts a law and defines these things properly, you don't have to worry about political, you know, footballing back and forth. Um, and so it would be the most durable solution. So we are strongly in favor of it. Um, we're hoping it it moves this summer uh in the House, and um, and then we're also very hopeful that we will have Senate introduction of a companion soon. Um, I am cautiously optimistic that this thing could move. Um, I know we've we're running out of clock this year, but um, but this is a bipartisan measure. Everybody, you know, it's good for everybody, so hopefully we can get some some traction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's an important bit. I mean, it seems uh it can really change uh everything. Yeah. Let's hope it will pass soon. You have highlighted the importance of federal leadership in creating national recycling standards. How can Congress help reduce the current patchwork of state-by-state regulation without stiffing innovation?
SPEAKER_00So that's a great question. And that the so I testified before Congress last summer, um, and this was largely the conversation that we had, which is what is the federal goal here? Um, the recycling system is outdated, it is provincial, right? Because it is every municipality sort of has jurisdiction on how they do it themselves. So it's very archaic, and there's everybody's got a problem, but everybody's got a different problem. And so, you know, there's some school of thought that okay, this is the place for the federal government to fix this. But realistically, the federal government doesn't do a great job of reaching into municipal issues and dealing with them. So you have this conflict. Um, but what is the federal role? One of the things that we think is a really good idea is for the federal government to provide standards, right? Okay, if you are going to be investing as a municipality in this, these are the best things on the market. This is what you should do, here's what recycling should look like, here's the, you know, here's how you should collect it, and here's basically guidelines so that municipalities aren't just making it up as they go. Um, you know, everybody's gonna have a challenge, whether it's you know, basic waste collection, getting a bin to somebody's house if it's a rural area, or you know, in a place like New York City or Queens or somewhere like that, where you have people living in high rises that are older and don't necessarily have the chute that goes to the recycling. So everybody's got a different problem. This is a place where the federal
Permits And Truth In Recycled Claims
SPEAKER_00government could really enact some standards or you know, guidance or whatever to just help, right? And and set some some basic guidelines and help help municipalities figure this out. Left to their own devices, they've got a whole lot of problems. And um, and it's not just recycling. And so, you know, really putting a firm focus on, hey, this is let's take care of this for you without stepping in and forcing them to do it, I think is a good place for the federal government to play.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Without no, these I I think we will face a lot of troubles in the future.
SPEAKER_00I think so. So the the um it in the last administration they had a bill that that gave a lot of money to different industries. And one of the things that that the and it was infrastructure bill, and and one of the things the infrastructure bill had was a grant process for essentially waste management and recycling. And so, and it was a lot of money. That those bills that they did in the last administration were a lot of money, and so a lot of money to do a lot of things, and it got used. But when we went in to see what what municipalities were doing with it, they were largely taking it for things that were not plastic recycling or material recycling. They were using it for food waste, equally important stuff, like very important stuff, but they were directing it to sort of other things. So just throwing money at it doesn't seem to only solve the problem. Throwing money at it obviously helps, but um, but I do think some directed federal guidance, guidelines, whatever, to help them figure it out themselves would be good too.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. I agree. And Ross, talking about artificial intelligence, robotics, and automation, they are increasing being integrated into sorting and recovery systems. How do you see emerging technologies transforming recycling efficiency and material recovery over the next decade?
SPEAKER_00It's it's a great question, and it's something that we're excited about. So across the board, just like every other industry, AI is embedding itself into in the industry. And you know, for a system like recycling that is that is essentially a 50-year-old system that was designed for things that we're not recycling today, this is a place where they could make a big difference. And it's across the board. As you're designing the products, I've seen companies that are able to embed different things in the labels and into the plastics themselves so that they can get sorted better. The sortation process itself, AI, there's there's there's new AI optical sorters that can do a better job of it. One of the things that some of the environmental groups tend to complain about is, you know, those black plastic takeout containers. Typically, the old optical sorters can't see the black. So they don't think there's anything there. And so they typically get, they don't get sorted out, they don't get recycled. And you know, rather than just not have them, because they serve a purpose, some of the newer technologies can do this, right? So these are the places where AI and some of these new technologies can make a difference. Um, and um, you know, certainly on the on the recycling recycling side, um, it helps too. Sortation, right? This is a people-driven process, um, not just here, but around the world. I mean, so much of um places, you know, countries, you look at Thailand, you look at India, you look at um Africa, there's what they call the informal sector. And it's literally waste pickers who are going through the trash and picking out the things that you can recycle. That's an actual industry in a lot of countries, and it's how they do recycling. Um, I'm not suggesting that we need to put people out of business in any way, but at the end of the day, you can, when that when they're sort of in an inefficient people process, this is where AI can make a difference, right? Either by making their jobs easier, by cleaning them up, by doing whatever. But you take sort of, you know, even at a sortation facility where you've got a person just reaching in and trying to figure out how to get things out, a computer, we know that a machine can do that better. We know that a machine can do that better. So there's promising technology there, there's a lot you can do with it. The hope is that we can start integrating that in in a responsible way.
SPEAKER_01Hope it will happen soon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I hope so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, Ross, you have argued that plastics are essential to sector ranging from healthcare to energy efficiency to transportation. How do policymakers balance the environmental concerns surrounding plastic waste with the economic and societal benefits plastic provides?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, that is our number one sort of priority, which is making sure that our industry is sustainable in all in all respects, right? Um, so the economic side of plastics, I think, is pretty straightforward. Um, we are in everything. Um, you know, uh just about everything that we touch or feel in any given day has some sort of element of plastic in it, um, whether it's healthcare. So my father was in the hospital last summer, he's doing great, um, but he was, you know, hooked up to a million tubes and all kinds of things, and plastic was keeping him alive, right? Like they they they were there for a purpose the blood bags, the syringes, the the drug delivery devices, that's all plastic. Um, and um, you know, similarly, your car. I spoke in an auto, uh, the auto industry had a tech showcase downtown yesterday. Um, 50% of your car by volume is plastic, but only 10% of the weight. And so you can drive farther, regardless of what the powertrain is, whether it's electricity or or gasoline, you can still go farther using less energy because the car is lighter, but it's just as durable. Um, airplanes, you know, AI, right? Tech hubs, like the data center, there's so much plastic that's going into that. Batteries, they're encased in plastic, all these things. So that's fairly straightforward. As an industry, we,
National Standards Without One-Size-Fits-All
SPEAKER_00you know, our economics uh department says that we are, you know, essentially support about $1.1 trillion worth of sort of business in the United States. Um, we've got about 670,000 direct employees, about 5 million total when you kind of think about all the employees that sort of rely on different elements of the plastics industry. So we're we're thriving in the United States. We're largely thriving because of the shale gas renaissance that we had uh 15, 20 years ago. Um, that has driven this industry to become much, much stronger in the US than it was before we discovered shale gas. Um, it is a key feedstock, a key element of what we do to make plastic in the United States, and it makes the United States considerably more competitive in terms of manufacturing plastics. We actually have a $21 billion trade surplus, which means we we're actually exporting, we have we make more than we can use, right? So we're exporting to the rest of the world. We're second globally in terms of production to China. They're way up, but we're doing pretty well. And so um we get there. Yeah, we'll get there. So, but anyway, we're a big big producer. And um, but the question was how do we sort of balance the economic with the sort of societal and environmental um challenges? And that is really the core, you know, that that's the core issue that we try to deal with, which is um we have an end-of-life problem with plastics, um, and customers want to know that what they're using is safe for its intended use. And so um we're committed to all of those things. We put a lot of money into scientific research to answer that second question, particularly around issues like microplastics and chemicals and packaging, and making sure that when EPA and FDA and all these agencies around the world are looking at this issue, that they're using the best available science and that ensuring that if we're putting a product into it, it is safe for your use, right? Like the last thing we want to do is anything but that. Um, and so um on the recycling side, you know, that is where we think it's extremely important to use every lever possible, whether it is asking you know the UN for a global treaty on plastics, which we have been doing, um, or trying to get legislation passed to spur recycling. Um, because we do know that at the end of the day, if we can't address this environmental problem and deal with pollution, which does not belong in the environment at all, um, if we can't deal with with the end-of-life issues for these, then people may just not want to use them anymore. And that doesn't help anybody because we do need it for all of the things that that that plastic is good for. So we think that there is a really great ending to this story, um, but we got to work hard to get there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but thank you also for pointing the uh safety, the safety issue. Yeah, there's a lot to think. And then sometimes we don't think where we can find plastic in our everyday life.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it is everywhere. I mean it's in your clothes, it's it's literally um in everything.
SPEAKER_01Wear in our clothes.
SPEAKER_00So polyester is is right? Yes, and you see it in a thing. And a lot of those performance fabrics and things like that, that the athletic stores and things like that. Um, a lot of them are actually using recycled products. So um India is a place where a lot of that is happening, where they're taking um essentially PET bottles, your bottles and things like that, and then and turning them into the fibers that go into a lot of your clothes. So a lot of that recycled product that you're getting when you see recycled materials and clothing, it's actually used plastic, um, which is really interesting. Very interesting.
SPEAKER_01Uh the United States is deeply involved in ongoing global negotiations around plastic pollution and international recycling standards. What role should the US play in shaping those negotiations and what is at stake if America's not leading
AI Sorting And Smarter Recovery
SPEAKER_01those conversations?
SPEAKER_00That's a fantastic question. So we um so we are about four or five years into a UN process to enact a global plastics, a binding legally agreement, a treaty maybe, but binding legally agreement to address plastic waste in the environment. And it was born out of doing something about essentially all that plastic that's floating in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, right? Like it doesn't belong there. So, what are we going to do about it? As difficult as it is to modernize our waste management system in the United States, there's three billion people, billion with a B around the world, who don't have access to any basic waste management services. So, um, as the as a global problem, I mean, I'm sure you've seen the pictures of just beaches full of trash and things like that in places like Southeast Asia and Africa. Like it's it's not acceptable, right? What are we going to do about that? And so this is where the UN can be helpful. The UN is a difficult place to work with sometimes, but on this issue, we're hopeful that they can get to an answer and get to a final agreement on this one. So we are now in March of next year, are entering into yet another two-week negotiation of every country to get this done. These things move at a snail's pace, um, slower than Congress, to be honest with you. They just move very, very slowly. And it's the reality of 190 or so countries having to essentially wordsmith a treaty, right? So everybody's got something and um and and everybody cares in a different way. Um but they've gotten there before, and we hope they can get there again. I think there are there's a few issues that the countries remain very divided on. Um, but um, but I would say 80% of the treaty, if they could actually just lay down their arms, is doable. And so hopefully they can they can bridge the gap and make some some compromises on things like financing and and and and and some other things to try to get this deal done. It's important to us for a couple of reasons. One, like I said, we're exporters, right? So we we trade with the rest of the world. Um being able to continue to do that in a fashion that is reasonable is important to us because we do supply plastics to the rest of the world and it matters. Um secondly, the environmental piece of it. It is not, you know, doing everything about recycling in the United States is great, but it doesn't really solve a global problem
Global Treaty Stakes And Success Metrics
SPEAKER_00because everybody else needs waste management too. So everybody kind of working together and implementing best practices can only help, particularly as you're bringing new technologies online. The last piece of it is um we very much want the US to be a party to this. There's a number of treaties that have been entered into over time that the US either didn't enter or lack the authority to enter. And so that puts the US on the sidelines as these treaties, which are 30, 40, 50-year sort of governing documents, that we're not a part of. And so if we can't actually be at the table helping figure out how the the world is going to handle this, let's say because we can't enter the treaty, but 150 other countries do, that puts the US at a tremendous disadvantage in terms of global competitiveness, trade, all of the things. Um we're very excited. I mean, the Trump administration agrees on this one, and um, and they have been active, active negotiators at this one, really doing a great job. We were we just did a round of negotiations in Geneva, Switzerland last summer. Um, it didn't come to a you know a happy ending, but I thought the U.S. did a really, really good job. Um they have the State Department, regardless of political party, when you know, regardless of who's in control, the State Department has a really strong group of negotiator negotiators. We just want them to be empowered to continue to get this done. Um, we think it's of paramount importance that we that we have this agreement and that the US stay a party to it. Um and you know, I think there's a pathway that the president wants all UN agreements to be America First Agreements. I think there's a very good pathway to get there where where this can be an agreement that that everybody benefits from, but that really the US stays competitive in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the right time. Maybe to lead also this uh this process. Yeah. Looking ahead five to ten years, what would success look like for Americans' plastics and recycling industries in terms of infrastructures, technology adoption, and public-private collaboration?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um so in five to ten years, the dream is that um we are not having this conversation about fixing recycling, right? Um, that it's fixed, and that we are, you know, that that that linear process is now circular. So that we're making plastics, using it, and remaking it over and over and over again, and that we're doing here and the rest of the world. That is the dream. Um short-term goals. So our overall recycling rate for plastics is stuck at about 8% for all plastics, and that's everyone's different, but overall 8%, it's got to go up, right? That is the important thing to me. As I sort of measure my own success, that number has to go up. And if we can start showing momentum and that we're bringing technologies to market and that this market works, then I think it will continue to build on itself. Um, to me, that is a success measurement in the short term that can then build towards the five to ten year goals of actually eliminating the problem itself.
SPEAKER_01Now it's amazing. We need to push the bill to pass in order not to avoid this conversation in the future.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate that. Yes, pass the yes, that that would be a this year goal, which is pass the Recycled Materials Attribution Act, pass 7502. Um, that would make a tremendous impact and give the retailers the confidence and the brands the confidence that they can actually start using this stuff. Um that would be a big, big, a giant leap in the right direction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you were very clear in explaining what would be the outcome and the and the great consequences. So yeah, let's pray it will happen soon.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you, Ross, for what you do.
SPEAKER_00Thanks so much.