#COVID19 Special Coverage: On this week’s episode we’re excited to share our conversation with Briana MacWilliam, a licensed and board certified creative arts therapist, with more than 13 years of experience in the field, working with individuals. Briana’s practice focuses on love and attachment self-help courses in adult relationships. Briana breaks down the different attachment styles and how they can change over time, actionable communication tips for partners with opposing styles during quarantine, the surprising link of how our relationship to love and money is connected and much more!
#COVID19 Special Coverage: On this week’s episode we’re excited to share our conversation with Briana MacWilliam, a licensed and board certified creative arts therapist, with more than 13 years of experience in the field, working with individuals. Briana’s practice focuses on love and attachment self-help courses in adult relationships. Briana breaks down the different attachment styles and how they can change over time, actionable communication tips for partners with opposing styles during quarantine, the surprising link of how our relationship to love and money is connected and much more!
spk_0: 0:01
welcome to entrepreneurial minds. I'm Valerie Donahue and on this podcast will travel around the world to learn everything that we can about individuals, which is secreted businesses from scratch. We'll dive into what drives them. What stops them and wouldn't buy or sell in order to identify are their common factors that unite us as entrepreneurs across continents. Here's your next episode on today's of a Spoke We have Brianna McWilliam, a license and board certified creative arts therapists with more than 13 years of experience in the field. Working with individuals, Grannis practice focuses on love and attachment, so help courses in adult relationships. Brianna, thank you so much. I've been looking forward to chatting with you in reporting this episode.
spk_1: 0:53
Yes, Thank you for having me glad to be
spk_0: 0:55
here. So to kick it off for those of us hearing about attachment styles for the first time, can you give us a one? 01
spk_1: 1:04
Sure. So attachment styles is basically the study of how our early childhood experiences form a blueprint for how we relate to our adult relationships. So in literature, I tend to follow me remains research which says that there are more or less for major attachment styles. And so the 1st 1 will say is secure attachment and that describes people who are able to be in close proximity. They're not afraid of emotional intimacy. They enjoy those things with a partner, but they're equally comfortable with giving their partner space in a relationship. They understand, um, the need for alone time, that kind of thing. Then we have individuals that are more anxiously attached. I refer to these individuals as open hearts. I also refer to secure individuals as cornerstones, but open hearts, these air individuals who tend to need and want a lot of connection in relationship. Sometimes they're described, as you know, quote unquote kind of clingy or, you know, intends to be there. Every waking thought is about their partner and how they are contributing to the relationship. But they're also very creative. They're very forgiving. They are very giving in relationship on gloving, and they they very much see themselves as a part of something. But what they struggle with is understanding themselves outside of the context of relationship. So when they're not in a relationship, they typically have low self esteem, and they struggle to feel validated or as if they're good enough. Um, then we have what are what's called avoidant attachment? And I call these folks Rolling Stones, and these are individuals that value a lot of personal freedom in relationships. They typically don't like to get too close on an intimate level. They may also be able to cut off from their feelings. Uh, discussions about feelings. Talking about the relationship itself is uncomfortable for them. They usually avoid labeling a relationship one way or the other, Um, and but they're very charismatic. They air very self sufficient. They they know how to get the job done. There typically get a lot of sense of purpose from their work. You know, they can be very purposeful, and they can also oftentimes root for the underdog because in some ways they got the way that they got because they had some trauma in their background. And then we have individuals that are considered disorganized. Sometimes it's called fearful avoidant, or sometimes it's called anxious avoidant. But basically these air folks who experienced both ends of the spectrum, they are anxious and they are avoidant, and these are the folks that tend to self sabotage so they'll get into a relationship and they want that closeness. But then they start to be very suspicious of their partners. Every move, they're kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop, and that creates a lot of anxiety. So they'll do something to make it drop so that they can stop anticipating that what they believe to be the inevitable end or ruin of the relationship. And they typically questioned their own ability to be a good partner in relationship. But on the other hand, they are also can be very charismatic. They are extremely adept at reading a room there, usually because I've spent a lot of their life likely being hyper vigilant about the caregivers and people around them. They're very emotionally intelligence. Um, and I also find these folks to be creative as well. You know that because they have such they struggle with both ends of the spectrum, but because they have both ends of the spectrum, they also have a wide range, you know? So we find this becoming the reason I talk about attachment styles is because when we find these insecure types pairing up with one another, they have a tendency to trigger each other into repetitive conflicts.
spk_0: 5:09
As you were talking, that was something that I was thinking. Are you know, are there combination within within these styles that work better together, um, and then and some of the combinations that don't work?
spk_1: 5:23
Yeah, So often times when clients come to me they're struggling with what I call the anxious avoidant trap. And this is a push poll roller coaster on again, off again kind of relationship pattern that tends to evolve. And usually it is a pairing between an anxious and an avoidant individual are open heart or rolling stone, but Or it could be the disorganized, attached person pairing up with either one of those, because when we I call them spice of Lifers but the spice of life for, um,
spk_0: 5:59
you
spk_1: 5:59
know, they always keep things interesting, and they can polarize their partner in one way or the other. This also happens, incidentally, for secure people. If you have a secure person who maybe he wasn't taught how to communicate very well on an emotionally honest level, if they have a leaning towards anxiety or avoidance as a way of coping, if they meet someone who's very insecure and has, um a lot of momentum, Let's say tied up in the way that they cope with feeling threatened in a relationship. Then then someone who's very insecure Ken polarized a secure person to become insecure. Um, so but it works the other way to let's say you have a very secure person who's very solid within themselves. They can create a strong container for the insecure person who becomes increasingly secure over time because they feel like they're getting a lot of what they need. So it really just depends on, let's say, the intensity or the severity of the insecurity within the individual, whether that is avoidance kind of insecurity or, you know, they use avoiding tendencies to cope with that or they use anxious tendencies to cope with that.
spk_0: 7:13
Yeah, and that's really interesting. Like also, as you are giving the different descriptions you were talking and I'm thinking to myself, Well, I've found myself to be one of these at different points of my life, depending on you know who the person that I am with. And so it's, you know, I was just thinking, I don't know where I would fall right and we just see it really depends on the other person and where I am in my life. So given all of that, so that means that attachment styles they can change for the better or the worst, given one. Your partner ISS. But then number two is it. Is it something that you're able thio change on your own regardless of being with a partner?
spk_1: 7:55
I believe so, and that's sort of the premise of my work, which is a lot of coaching and psychotherapists focus on focus on and in the a relational space as being the only place in which you can affect these changes. I'm someone who approaches it from more of a psycho spiritual perspective, and it's my belief that even in the context of a relationship, unless you are connecting to your own source energy, those patterns are gonna perpetuate, and you are subject to the circumstances and the conditions around you. But if you want to be the partner, that is, let's say, quote unquote secure, and you want to be the partner that holds your ground, and you know yourself well enough and you stand in a position of what I call self sovereignty so that you know who you are, regardless of who you are in partnership with. And then whatever you are contributing to that relationship stems from a deep connection to the essence of your being, as opposed to being pushed around by whatever anybody else does. Um, I think that, you know, that is the premise from which I approach this. And so I believe that when we can first establish that sense of grounded nous within ourselves as the individual, then we're showing up in the relationship in such a way that we are able to operate from a place of generosity as opposed to a place of tit for tat. Right, Well, if you don't do this first, and I'm not gonna do that, you know,
spk_0: 9:16
so is the goal of the kind of work that you d'oh. Having someone you know is the end goal having a secure attachment style or is the angle knowing how you operate and using the right partner for yourself and being able thio have the have the reactions have appropriate reaction to different circumstances?
spk_1: 9:40
Well, so I would say the first step is realizing there's no such thing as an end goal and and then what? What? What we If there were one, it would be to to learn, ah, process by which we can release the notion of an angle. So and that is how I define it. Security. So So really, what you're asking me is how how security, Right? And and that is so when we have someone who's anxious or even avoided, you know, and they look at you, learn about attachment styles, and this is what happens when people first come to them. They learn about attachment styles, and and what attach myself help us do is they help us to draw lines around an experience that has been, let's say, ill defined up until this point. You know, we noticed ourselves acting and behaving and feeling and responding in ways that sometimes feel within our control and sometimes don't. And you know, something happens and we turn around like why I say that? Why did I do that? Oh, you know, I regret that. Why did I allow that to happen? And so when we learn about attachment styles now, we are better able to draw lines around. Those things don't go. That's why I did that. So that's why I did this. And what that does is it allows us to assume called the Observer position, or I like to think of it as a moons. I've you off like what we're experiencing inside. So in essence, now we've created spaciousness in our inner space around that, let's say in security or that coping mechanism for feeling like our connections are threatened, right? And that's like Step one, that's like, OK, the observer position. Now I get to make choices. But then what happens is if we have had a history in a pattern of relating to people in an anxious or an avoidant way. We also have a synaptic groove carved into our limbic brain, which is the part of our brain that is associated with survival. Moon food, sleep, you know, involuntary functions and are bought and sell. Memory has a way of reacting to stimulus and reacting to our partners in such a way that on a very instinctual level, we believe is about our survival, because as human beings as a species, we believe we need to be connected in order to survive, and so are coping mechanisms evolved because in the environments in which we grew up in, they did serve us. They did service. They got us what we needed in order to survive. But now, in adulthood, those circumstances have changed. But our brain are synaptic grooves and everything else has not. So we're still applying old wisdom to new situations. Uhm so what I believe felt security is is realizing that we don't need thio change molds, you know, contort ourselves to try to fit some new paradigm. Like that was that was the old way of thinking about things like what? What we're trying to do now is to be in dialogue and conversation with those parts of us so that we can in being in dialogue. We're not pushing against them, were not pulling against them. We're just accepting them. And so it's really moving from a state of observance, which is the observer position to tolerance. Okay, I know I have the same society, and I'm just gonna let it be what it is to acceptance. I accept that this is an aspect of me and then to compassion, which is I accept. This is an aspect of me and I love it. I love this aspect of me because it's afforded me all of X y Z and those become the life lessons and that becomes the essence of spirit. Like what life means to you, right? So but it's hard for us to do that because we also grew up in a culture where we have to go from a to B. And we think if I'm anxious now, for example, if I'm anxious now and a secure person, you know I'm a warrior and a secure person must not worry as much as I do. So once I worry less, if I can figure out how to worry less than I'll be a more secure person, right? So my worry makes me this way. And when we have that dialogue, we are over, Let's say identified with the worry. I'm a warrior, but it's not. It's that I have worried, you know. And so what a secure person does is secure person. That says, I have worry, and this is what I intend to do with the worry. And the worry doesn't define me beyond this fleeting moment in which I have the experience, whereas the rest of us assume it as an identity. But if we can extract our identification from the worry now, you just have a worry. You just have anxiety. And now it's just it's ah San, a grain of sand in the oyster around which you will Now you know we've your pearl and that's gonna be your gift. And someone who loves you and who's going to support you in a secure relationship will be someone who understands that process and can engage in it with you.
spk_0: 14:12
Sure, Um, yeah, and and I think right, like that's, uh um, Now I want to say the end goal, but it's I think, for lots of people, right, like that's Ah, that's a dream, right? To be in a relationship that, you know, you're understood. You understand the other person on DDE where you're, you know, you're truly seeing all parts of them, you know, in a loving way, not because you have to or because, you know, because that's just you know, that's that's just what it is for you, um, and vice versa and, you know, way probably awful into different parts of the spectrum throughout our life, right? Like we go from, you know, from from having, you know, great relations from maybe negative relationships to positive relationships, right? Like all of these things can changed up. And I'm curious about the people. Coop, search for, um for your work on DSS, seek out your courses. What do you notice is something bad. You know that that is, that pushed for them that makes them feel like this. Is that the time that I want to focus on this kind of work for myself in my life?
spk_1: 15:25
So I like to think of this as, like, four phases of the romantic journey is what I call it, and and so I usually find that we are We sort of go through these four sort of distinct cycles, and it's not a linear trajectory usually goes around around and around and around again throughout our lifetimes, in different iterations. But usually when people come to me, they've already been through. What I think of is the first phase, and that's like a wander. I call it the wandering phase. But this is a phase where you know, we we have these feelings and we feel compelled towards certain partners. And we're not really to questioning about why we have them or that we have them on Lee, that we want to satisfy them and we sort of we we've a lot of stories about how and why we need to satisfy them to justify why we do the things we do. And that's sort of, but there's not a lot of reflection on it. There's not a lot of taking ownership of what our roles were and how things went down, and I call that the wandering phase and the truth is, a lot of people will stay in that phase their entire lives. Then there's the exploring. So going from wandering to exploring the shift is is one of intention. So usually if you decide to make that shift or used to decide to set an intention to now explore instead of wonder, you have experienced enough heartbreak that you're like God, I just I don't want to do this again. And if if it's keeps happening, I'm you're sort of at a point where you're ready to surrender to the idea that I must have some role in this, you know, like I'm the common denominator and it must be something that I need to be looking at. And so now you start exploring the possibilities and you start, um, reading self help books and watching YouTube videos and looking, you start looking intentionally, right. And now you what I think of as the discovering phase and that is your looking and you will find. And so people they usually look for scientific reasons. They usually look for proven evidence of things they look for. They look for proof in the world that they're not alone. Proof in the world that that this is an experience that, um that can that that there's something that can contextualized that experience for you, right? And that gives us a sense of OK, I've found some solutions, and in the exploring phase, we're still kind of looking for a quick fix. So now we're sort of we find there's a myriad of options and which quick fixes gonna work the quickest for me and the best for me. And then by the time we reached the discovering phase, we we have let go of the idea that there must be a quick fix here. Um, and you're kind of willing to relax into a process, Um, and the next phase, the fourth phase. I call the loving phase, and that is where you have more or less adopted a process for yourself, and it's it's usually gonna involves tapping into some level. In my opinion of spirit, that's my word for it. Other people might have different words for it, but in essence, it's finding a process by which you start to construct meaning for your experiences for yourself, right. And now you're starting to more clearly define a set of principles by which you define yourself. You're becoming a lot more clear about personal boundaries. And now you're like, OK, I'm either ready to deep in the intimacy with an existing partner. And I feel like I have the tools to do that. Or maybe you're single and you're like, Now I'm ready to try again, right? Uh, I'm ready to take off the training wheels. Doesn't mean all doubt and fear is erased from your mind. But now you have a lot stronger footing, and you feel like you're ready to try again. You know, um, and so when people come to me, they're usually somewhere between exploring or an, um discovery or discovery and loving, Um, usually people who are in the wandering phase there. I'm not their cup of tea. They're looking for my steps to get your partner back. You know, I think that's what they're looking for. Um, and I'm sort of the person who's done who's like Bottle the E Books and tried all the scripts, and they feel like it's worked to some degree, but not in a substantial way. And now they're ready to go a little bit deeper, and that's
spk_0: 19:28
that's where I come in. And so with something like, because, look, I think that that goes for, um that goes for everything, like, really nation ships and business. Andi, talk about this a lot, where, especially the abundance of information that's out there right now. You can find a free Google resource for almost anything, and still, it's the You have to invest your time in doing that research and put putting it together in order for it to be useful. So, um, I'm a huge fan of ah, of using structured programs of using mentors of using coaches of using therapists because at the end of the day, those are the sources and the people that they say you time and they point you in the direction. And, like also interesting to what you said, right? Like so for some people like you are not their match for some people, you are right. So, like finding the thing or the person that is the right match and then going forward with it, I think that it makes a huge um, I think it makes a huge difference. So and so, um, in terms off, like, given the situation that we're in now, a lot of people are in our most of us are in quarantine throughout the world. Hopefully, Do you think that being an important guy for either in relationships do you Do you Do you see that this is m needed that you know, people are searching for this kind of thing, Or is it too early to tell?
spk_1: 21:09
Well, you know, it's interesting. As an entrepreneur, I did find myself wondering if this is gonna impact my income because, you know, one might argue that what I'm offering is a luxury compared to you know, if you need money to buy food and keep a roof over your head. But ironically, I have not seen any dip in my income. And if anything, more people are becoming active in my online forums and asking more questions, and I think that's because we're in. It's interesting because the situation we find ourselves and now create sort of a perfect storm for whatever exist insecurities and or patterns of, relating to be somewhat spotlighted because some of us are being forced into close quarters with people that we may struggle to be in close quarters with while others of us are being driven apart from folks that we were hoping to get closer to right. And so now there's a big let's say, like spotlight on how how now are those coping skills when we are in a survival situation going? Thio play themselves out and attachment theory at its at its core is founded in the survival parts of our brains and our attachment experiences are embedded in the part of our brain associated with survival mechanisms. So it's interesting because, you know, in addition to that, we have this as human beings. We are all gonna have an anxious response to what's going on because it's a part of our natural instinctual system is to have held elevated levels of anxiety when there is a mortal threat. Um, and interestingly we have is one word for it. We have an invisible threat, more or less. And so, ah, lot of us are. You know, those of us that are in quarantine. It's kind of like a hurry up and wait kind of situation. And there's this sort of pervasive, kind of foggy sense of anxiety that we're all experiencing without a point of focus for it. So there's it's hard to pinpoint it and shake it off and then add to that any pre existing attachment anxieties that we might have had right and the ways that we cope with those and it can become, you know, an intense situation for people. So to answer your question, I do think that we're in a unique time to be examining the ways that we are relating to each other. And I also think that as a global society, because this is a prolonged disruption to the way that we relate to one another on so many levels, you know, even beyond romantic, certainly in the realms of business and every and economics, and, you know everything else weird. I feel like we're going to see massive changes in the way humans interact with each other on all of those levels.
spk_0: 23:52
Yeah, four star. I totally agree. And I think that you know, someone You know, what we're seeing as well in our business is that some of the trends that we're just slowly going to with time, you know, uh, you know, make their way to the cycle, are now speeding up, right? Like, you're you're having people use certain technology, Um, and just, you know, really much at a much faster rate than they would have if all of this didn't change. So it's, uh I think it's gonna be really interesting for us to see what it's like. You know how we go through all of this now and then, Um and then what happens after?
spk_1: 24:31
It's funny you were talking about mentorship. I have, ah, mentor that I sees 92 years old and always teased me relentlessly about doing what I do online because it's so contrary to what you know, he was taught. And, you know, yesterday I get a zoom link from him. he calls me and follow up. Did I do that right? Here we
spk_0: 24:53
go. You
spk_1: 24:54
know, he's finally he said I was like, I know I tease you, but now I realize that you've always just been ahead of your time. Yeah, Yeah, I think you're right. I think there's gonna be a massive shift.
spk_0: 25:06
Yes. And one thing I want to ask you, like just going back when you were speaking earlier. Um, you know, going back to the quarantine with partners, Would you be able to give some some examples of what it looks like if you're you know who are, you know, in close quarters or you're in a relationship with someone who's who's attachments styled, match yours. What does that look like on every day, Which is someone look for?
spk_1: 25:37
Well, it's likely that if you have people with different differing attachment cells, let's assume insecure attachment styles. It's going to get heated. Would be my assumption because you will have one partner who is over the moon, ecstatic that their partners forced into close quarters with them. And then you may have the other partner being leg. Oh, God, there's no escape. So I think what becomes of you know, real importance is the ability to articulate. You know, what we're feeling, what we need and also an ability not to take things too personally, Um, and and also to understand that, um that these are unusual circumstances. And in order for us to get our attachment needs men, we're gonna have to be kind to each other on also brutally honest, um, and and but brutally honest in a way that's tactful on DDE that takes into consideration that you do want to be connected to this person. You do love this person. But now you know, we're sort of in a crash course training on how to articulate yourself well, and so if I were to give you some guidance on that, it would be to start like if there's a need that one needs to express. It would be to start by always acknowledging a point of appreciation with your partner. So, um, for example, if their socks on the floor and it's driving you crazy, you know, instead of saying oftentimes there will be one partner who says their socks on the floor, and it means they don't love and appreciate me because if they loved and appreciated me, they would pick up those socks because they know how much it bothers me, right? And then there will be another partner who's like their socks on the floor. It has nothing to do with how much I love and appreciate you. They're totally unrelated, right? So So you'll have this kind of mismatch. And
spk_0: 27:33
some
spk_1: 27:33
people will say It's an irreconcilable, you know, mismatched, the values. And I would argue that that's not the case. So, for example, like if someone, people will sort of misidentify what the need or the value actually is there so that, well, I need them to pick up the socks or I need them Thio, you know, toe, leave me alone about that right? But that's not the actual underlying need. What the need in that moment is they need a gesture of love from their partner to show them that they are acknowledged and appreciated. And if they feel like it's missing in other aspects of the relationship, the Sox become the representation of what's missing in the other aspects, right? So what they're actually needing is acknowledgement in connection. Now if their partner can recognize that that's what they're actually asking for than that need can be met. But usually what happens is we ask it and such a sense like you didn't pick up those socks. You're so careless and thoughtless and you don't appreciate what I do for you in this house right now. Their partner will typically respond with Oh, so they completely acknowledge and discount everything else I do for them. Which means that it's pointless for me to do anything. Which means that I'm disrespected and unacknowledged in this relationship. And they're better off without me anyway, right? So So none of the real needs air became vocalized. So first we can say, make a statement of appreciation Like, you know, I first I just want to say actually, the first thing I would say it, say their name and let them know that what you're gonna say is important because a lot of times we just say what we want. But we don't express the level important of importance that it is for us because a lot of partners you say, Oh, you know, I'd really like if blah, blah, blah whereto happen and they're just like Okay, great. Whatever. You know, like it's a fantasy. You're just you're just rattling things off the top of your head. They're not going to take you seriously. But if you say John on and you have to say their name done, I've got something important I'd like to talk with you about for a minute. Now you've got their attention, right? And then you say, I just want to say, start by saying I I so love and appreciate the way that you work hard all day. You know, for this family and I 100% understand what it's like to need to relax at the end of a long day. But I have noticed that the socks on the floor has become a recurring thing. And, you know, I can't help but feel,
spk_0: 29:56
ah,
spk_1: 29:56
lack of appreciation and understanding for how much that actually means to me. And I'm wondering if we could have an open conversation about what types of solutions we could do for that. Because I could you know it. What are your ideas about that? Because I could really use your help with solving this problem. Right? And now you've created like you you've expressed appreciation, you've gotten their attention. You've let them know it's something important, and you've also expressed what you're really feeling. Anger is the first, like anger is the first feeling we jump to when we feel like our connections are being threatened. Feeling underappreciated and under acknowledged is a threat to your connection. So so we jumped to anger, and then we make a defensive statement or a critical statement, right, because that protects our soft underbelly. But in that moment, if you can express your soft underbelly and then opened it up a za co creation like open it up a cz like can you? Can you and you invite them into being a part of the solution? So now they can be a part of the solution. And so maybe they say something like, Oh, wow, how long have you been holding onto that? Like you're right. Besides, I don't think the Sox are that important. But now that I know how important it is to you, let's let's figure out what we can do, like maybe we can put the laundry basket at the base of the stairs or I'll just stuff them in my shoes and bring him up after dinner, you know? And then does that work like either of those solutions work for you? And maybe, you know, whatever her name is, Jane says, Yeah, yeah, that's fine. And so maybe then now and it is a secure partner. They might they might be amused And how easy it was to please server. There's doing this teeny, tiny little thing. And I'm like, Okay, if I knew it was that easy, how else might I make you feel appreciated tonight? You know, so, you know, and so both partners air coming at it from a place of generosity, which is
spk_0: 31:49
is
spk_1: 31:49
security. That's felt security, right? But if if they were to get triggered into the spiral that, you know, we just illustrated all of a sudden you've got you thinking we're completely incompatible. And you know, there's no way we can make this work, but it's just that we're not actually aware of and don't know how to vocalize what our needs actually are So long. Answer to your question, I would say, starting with appreciation, being direct and what it is that you're trying to communicate as opposed to passive aggressive or trying to hint at things and then opening up the conversation to a co creation, which you do just by being curious. Like, What do you think about this? What? What? What do you think some of those solutions might be here and then being receptive to whatever that might be.
spk_0: 32:35
So if you're in a position where, uh, those kind of things air coming up frequently? A. If it's just something for us Thio to keep in mind that that's, you know that those things air that the little things air coming up more all you know quite often. And what does it actually mean about our are other needs within the relationship
spk_1: 33:00
it could be. And it could also be that there's additional pressure and mo mentum on because we're experiencing so much pressure and momentum in other areas of our lives, right? So I think you know, if I had a wreck recommendation, it would be to find two to maybe think about and to find the places where you connect and joyful ways, and to make sure that you're making as much space for those connections as much as you are worrying about what's going on outside of the world. You know, Um, whatever you do together that is pleasurable and fun and whatever makes you laugh together, do more of that and and make set an intention to do more of that, even if it's just 10 minutes of quiet presence with each other, like holding each other's hand every day, like just being able to be fully present with one another in a way that is pleasurable for you. If you can bring that kind of momentum to the relationship as much as all this other type of momentum that's going on, that's actually outside of your control, then you can try to maybe balance some of that tension.
spk_0: 34:09
That's good advice and one thing, but you talk about that, I think is an interesting connection. On it is a connection between love and money. So what does that look like from your research and from your experience?
spk_1: 34:24
Um, you know, it's interesting. I often find there are a lot of connections between love and money. Um, and I usually see it playing out in one of two ways, and I guess we could also associate this with what same or anxious or avoidant coping skills for connection. I find that, um, you sort of have this this one camp where people who struggle with love in their relationships throw themselves into their work, and they throw themselves into what makes them feel purposeful in other ways. And then that becomes their obsession. But then they But then they usually have an underlying belief, like you can have love or you can have money, but you can't have both. And so they choose the one that makes them feel more in command, the one that makes them feel less helpless, the one that makes them feel more in control of their lives. And then you have, ah, the other side of it where these are individuals who actually have tremendous capacity. But they become so derailed by their love and attachment needs that it tends to sabotage their work and financial life. So they end up, you know, you'll have. They end up in human service positions and they, no matter what they do, they always find themselves in a toxic job with a boss that throws them under the bus or with, you know, um, they end up in ah with colleagues that remind them of their sister, you know, or something like them and people who are undervaluing them, not companies that are overworking and not paying them enough, you know, and then feeling stuck in those jobs and then telling themselves, Oh, well, there's a pension. I don't want to give up the pension so I'll suffer a 2030 40 50 years of abuse because I want that pension. It's the same thing as saying, Well, I'm attached to them and I need them for my survival's all saw for 2030 40 50 years of natural emotional, you know that's gonna keep me alive. So we have mentality, you know? And then, you know, we have the Wall Street guys. That's just my stereotype of live in New York City. But you know the work hard play hard stereotype, right? And so there's a lot of it appears as if everything's, you know, put together, but but a lot of times they will have. There's a there's a sense of spiritually a rigidity, you know, that there's something missing and what am I? What am I doing all of this for and and then we hit something like a recession, and then they all have. You know, they all develop disorders around crossing bridges and a fear of heights because they've they've climbed to such a height, and now they're gonna fall. And this is, ah, a terrible fear that grips them and and then it permeates every other aspect of their life. And then it's like Is my partner with me for my money, or is my partner and my status, or is my partner with me Because they actually love me and I don't know. And did I marry them because I love them? Or do I marry them because they fit the mold? So yeah, money and love are very inextricably intertwined.
spk_0: 37:26
And so so then it doesn't work that if you figure out one or the other like like if you're struggling, you know, like in both areas, that more likely that like, once you figure out one than the other one falls into place, you have to work on both Actively. How does it work?
spk_1: 37:46
I believe that all of our energy is in the same bucket. However, we're very good at compartmentalizing as human beings. S o. I do think like I said, You know, there is those folks that can throw themselves into work and do very well monetarily, but they're lovely, suffers right, but it's usually because they believe it must suffer. They believe that that is the sacrifice they must make. Um, and and I think it really has more to do with what we allow into our experience. So the way that I shifted and I was definitely the I was the version that was the, um, the social worker that always ended up in. And I must creative arts therapist. But the human service worker who always ended with toxic environments, underappreciated and underpaid. And, um, I decided the way I shifted my relationship to money is I heard this. I actually heard a shaman talk about money and and yeah, and said that all of our energy is in the same buckets. And if you can take whatever opening beliefs you're having now around love and everything else and shifted towards money, you will see things open up. So the way I decided to think about this was I started reading a lot about, um, physics and the laws of physics and, um, how thinking about money as a form of energy and that everything is just a form of energy. And if any time you talk about money, you replace the word with energy, Um, you'll start to see a lot more of it flow into your life. So do I need more energy? Where do I want to be? Seeing more energy flowing into my life? Where am I allowing too much energy to flow out of my life? How can I start to organize my energy so that it will make more energy for me? Um and so replacing the word money with energy radically changed the way I was thinking about it. Um, and and the other thing I thought I started Think about money as a lover, you know, and a lot of street. A lot of us treat money like a lover in no lover money. Money's winking at you money standing over at the bar, and it's winking at you and it's trying to get your attention. And we're doing the thing we always do with money. We're like, No, it's not you money. It's me right now. No money. Stop calling me money. Stop. I don't know now I can't do this. I'm not, You know, you're too good for me. Money. It's not you. It's me, Right? So So instead imagining that we're inviting money in, you know, and also letting go of all the moralizing that we do around it and things like that, a lot of people think Well, I see a lot of people who work hard for their money, and that's why they're rich. The only reason they have they have that money is because now that they've worked hard enough, they give themselves permission to have it. Now they feel entitled to it. Money responds to whatever, whoever whomever feels entitled to it. If if you're in a love relationship and you feel entitled and receptive towards the love that somebody is trying to give you, then you will get it. If you don't feel entitled and worth like, you've worked hard enough for the love and you won't receive it. You won't let it in because you don't think you've worked hard enough for it. So if you can stop equating, working hard for making with making money than money starts to come to you and you don't have to work that hard at all. You're just entitled to.
spk_0: 40:59
I really loved that. I really love that perspective. I think it's really cool. I've never heard it said in that way. So I think that's, uh, that's interesting something thio, uh, to think about after the conversation. And one thing you also mentioned the ties into that is that you're currently reading a book profit 1st 0 yeah, just a little bit about
spk_1: 41:26
Yeah, this is a great book. It just basically talks about. You know, I came from a background where my family was always struggling for money. My dad was always on unemployment. I live on welfare with my mom for a little while and then, but it's interesting because we're also my mom's white collar, my dad's blue collar. So my mom had a lot of resource is to kind of pull her stuff up out of that eventually, but has always had you have to work hard for your money mentality. And so and it's interesting because in reading this book, the author, it seems like, comes from a similar type of background and pointed out some of the ways in which we think about and address money, and I've reached a place in my business where I'm now making six figures. I never in my life ever thought I would be making that much money, let alone doing it as my own boss. And so but But still, it's like I'm still for a long time. It's like all my expenses eat up everything I make. And and I'm just I knew that there's something I'm missing here, like there's something, even if it's, it seems, out of left field like I'd have a great month and then some expense, completely unpredictable, unplanned like floats into your existence. And I'm still living paycheck to paycheck. And what I love about this book is that it kind of talks to that audience specifically, and he gives you very concrete tools for how to start thinking about your money and how to start thinking about where and how to partition out your expenses, your profit and everything else, so that you can start to have a lot more clarity on OK, now you've hit this phase of growth in your business like basically I've had no pre existing models for it. So this is the way to position yourself and leverage yourself so that you can continue to scale and expand. And so that has been a wonderful actually recommendation from Mastermind that I joined recently and it was a great recommendation. The other one I'd recommend is called Tapping Into a Wealth. Um, and it it actually speaks more to like what I was talking about before about my energy.
spk_0: 43:32
Amazing. Those recommendations. Ondas. You know, we're always collecting book recommendations, especially at a time like this. You know, when you you know, people are taking a break from, uh, we're having worth time, right from some of us, right? Not for everyone. But if you're having more time and you're you know, you have the ability to read, you have the time for thes They're such good recommendations. And, um, you know, some of the conversation we've been having is that now, if you are noticing a bit of a slow down in your bed, Tess and you are noticing it, slow down in general, in the in the rhythm of your life, then you Then you can take it as an opportunity to read into these things, to learn these kind of things, like to ponder on a lot of the things that you were mentioning during this conversation. Just so yeah, you can take it as a pause. And then when things come back to the way they've been, then then you then you're coming back stronger than you have. All these resource is things that you might not have been thinking or action ing for a really long time. So I think both of those are really, really good recommendations and I'll definitely reading them.
spk_1: 44:42
Yeah, for sure. I love to hear your thoughts.
spk_0: 44:45
And last thing Brianna do had mentioned to me that s part of this podcast that you would be giving a treat to some of our well to do our listeners in the form of many course. So if you could tell us a little bit about that, um that our s O, that our listeners know what to expect
spk_1: 45:08
for sure. Yes, I'm offering a course. It's a four part video course and downloadable workbook. It's called Four Steps to Passionate Partnership, and basically this walks you through my method of working with insecure attachment styles. And I call it the McWilliam method. But it's founded upon three basic tools and principles, and that is cognitive reframing, body activation and arts based experiential. So, as a licensed creative arts therapist, I tend to use creativity as like a bridge between, let's say, the head and the heart. And so we can have a lot of insight around things, and we can learn about why and how we do things. But it doesn't always translate into a change in your felt experience, and it doesn't always translate into being attracted to different types of partners. And it doesn't always translate into being able. Thio, um, experience your life in a qualitatively different fashion, right? So my method is intended to bring all of that insight down into the body because the body is really what houses are. A motive. Experiences, we might call them, are energetic or are effective experiences. But in in essence, you noticed that through shifts in your emotional life, right? And so with cognitive reframing, we kind of dig into what you think you want, kind of like with the conversation we talked about with socks on the floor. How do you go from recognizing? I'm not actually mad about socks on the floor What I'm actually looking for is encouragement and connection. But we don't. How do I realize that? That's what I'm asking for. Like, how did I not jump to anger right away? How do I How do I not miss? Identify socks on the floor is being my need, as opposed to wanting more connection with my partner. Right? So So that's kind of what cognitive reframing helps us do. And that's on the level of consciousness story. You know, this is sort of similar to, like cognitive behavioral therapy and then body activation. Arts based experience. Experiential Sze work together to activate your body, um, and also to access your creative impulses as a way to take that internal experience and dialogue and externalize it on the page or through movement, or through guided visualization, so that you can be in dialogue with whatever part of you is asking for that connection or whatever part of you is feeling scared that you're losing that connection or whatever part of you is angry about the socks because you think your partner doesn't care about you and therefore they will leave you one day, you know, So being in aware of and more active dialogue with those parts of us. Actually, Um, relax and let's say titrate a lot of the energy and momentum we have in being in communicating in defensive ways, right? And feeling anxious and all of that. So that's really what this this course is intended to be just kind of like, Ah, many introduction and taste of how I walk you through those steps.
spk_0: 48:08
Well, that sounds that sounds really great. And it also so, ties in, You know, this entire conversation and it's I think it's such a nice gift for people to receive at this, uh, this time, if this is the kind of work that they're thinking about exploring and and they related thio any of the parts that you are speaking thio in today's conversation, I think that that's, uh, that's really generous. And that's great. And what we'll do is we'll get the link from you and gullible posted in our instagram s so that our listeners are able to are able to have access to about it and take advantage of it.
spk_1: 48:46
Wonderful. I hope you like it.
spk_0: 48:48
Yeah. Brianna, Thank you. Once again. Thank you so much. It was awesome. You know? And I think you won't be having myself of the listeners. I think this is. This is just such an interesting conversation on guy. Am I personally took so much away from It s so I really appreciate your time. And, uh, yeah, we'll keep an eye out on on everything else that you continue to do it in the future and will continue to come Touch of these.
spk_1: 49:12
Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
spk_0: 49:15
Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Entrepreneurial Minds by chatterbox. Our dedicated and on demand virtual executive assistant team specializes in supporting entrepreneurs and business owners with pretty much any admin task. Go to chatter, boss dot com toe learn more.