1023 Diesel is a comprehensive diesel repair shop situated in Palmer, AK. While we maintain these videos/podcasts for archival purposes, please note that 1023 Diesel has ceased online parts sales, build support, and tuning services.
For local repairs, you can conveniently schedule an appointment through our website: 1023diesel.com.
For information related to the host, Dustin Hogate, please visit his personal website, as he is no longer affiliated with 1023 Diesel:
dustinhhogate.com
1023 Diesel is a comprehensive diesel repair shop situated in Palmer, AK. While we maintain these videos/podcasts for archival purposes, please note that 1023 Diesel has ceased online parts sales, build support, and tuning services.
For local repairs, you can conveniently schedule an appointment through our website: 1023diesel.com.
For information related to the host, Dustin Hogate, please visit his personal website, as he is no longer affiliated with 1023 Diesel:
dustinhhogate.com
That was the worst intro to any video, probably ever, pretty sure ever. Welcome to episode 65 of the 1023 diesel shop talk podcast. Today's episode, we're just having to build a conversation with somebody like you that wants to build their 7.3. In this case, the caller has a well now I've forgotten 2000, I think is a 2000 truck, and he's looking at places injectors, doesn't know if they should go bigger than stock, stay with stock, and then what all the other components would be to go with them. And so we had a good conversation walking through the logic of making those choices, deciding what the best choice is for him, which ultimately, it's up to you. You have to make those choices, we can't make them for you. But I think it's a good conversation and if you guys enjoy this format, let us know. Leave a comment, share the show.
Speaker 1:Our goal is to teach you guys how we go through the process of making those decisions and hopefully walk away with more good running trucks at the end instead of trucks that end up well beat to death. So we don't want kids destroying trucks. We love these conversations. If you want to be a part of it and you want to join the show, you can fill out a build plan. Down below there's a link whether you're on a podcast or on YouTube and we can get a time scheduled. And well, you can be on air. So, possibly the worst intro ever. Here's the conversation.
Speaker 2:It's late 23,000 miles on original injectors, starting to get a lot of injector clatter. So I know it's time and I said, well, if I'm going to tear this thing apart, you know where should I go, like you know, when I don't want to go like crazy and have to, you know, do a bunch of stuff but at the same time, like there's no point in going stock when you can do much better than stock for not a lot more money.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, yeah the only. There's a lot to be gained. There's also some stuff to lose when you go with, you know, larger injectors. So the right now the issue is you want to replace the injectors and just want to make sure you get the best size possible. Is that your primary concern?
Speaker 2:Yeah, without doing too much. I mean I've done exhaust and intake. That's about the only thing that's really done to the truck. I was looking at like the KC balance assembly, turbo cartridge replacement, but then you know, what do you need on the fuel side to support that? You know I'm probably going to need to replace an H-PROP center later, since it's the factory original at 370,000 miles. So do you get a bigger one of those? You know we're kind of where it's not lying, right. I don't want to go too far, but you know there's some things you might as well do while you're in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how long have you owned the truck? I've had this truck nine years. Well, I'll tell you this On Superduties anytime you go to an injector that's not stock, so anything other than the AD codes that came in it there are some things to consider. If you're already on the edge of wanting enough power that you would need bigger injectors, so you will have to have custom tuning in the truck for it to run correctly no matter what, which also means if there's anything like a drivability problem with the truck or the engine's not running right, it becomes quite a bit more difficult to diagnose what's going on with it when you have a single shot injector in a originally split shot truck and you won't be able to do a lot of diagnostics when there's tuning in it. So it won't run right without tuning, but you can't really do diagnostics with tuning. It's not really a big deal, unless there's a problem, and then it can get a little frustrating for shops if you rely on a shop to do it.
Speaker 1:The biggest thing is if you're relying on a shop, having somebody who knows how to deal with modified 7.3s, or if you're doing the work yourself, just having the knowledge yourself. So that's something to consider. The other thing is it might not even be needed. I mean I know it's kind of hard to throw a number out there and say 300 horsepower. It's hard to know if 300 horsepower would be the right amount. But if you just want more than stock, you can make about 100 horsepower more than stock with just tuning, without even changing the injectors. I mean you might need to change the injectors because they're old, but changing to a different size I mean reliability-wise and efficiency-wise.
Speaker 2:I mean, do you get more out of a single shot injector with a little bit more nozzle, or is it really, if you're just going to push that much hotter of a tune with that much more air and that much more fuel?
Speaker 1:Pretty much just takes a certain amount of fuel to make a certain amount of power. If the target is, we want to get to around high 200s to 300,. Whether it's a single shot injector or a split shot injector, either one has the fuel to do it. It's essentially going to do the same thing. There's nothing more efficient about a single shot injector. In theory they would be, but in practice the best consistent fuel mileage we see is from stock trucks. We do not ever see better fuel mileage from switching to a single shot. Sometimes they are higher, but usually on average they say about the same.
Speaker 2:Let's say going with stock injectors, the upgraded turbo cartridge and the tuner. You think that would probably get me close to where I want to be.
Speaker 1:It would certainly get you a lot higher than stock. You asked earlier, too, about reliability. The other thing to consider is everything about we have three points of reliability. When you say reliability, do you mean that it's something that is unlikely to fail or the lowest chance possible of having some kind of breakdown? The other aspect of it is how easy is it to diagnose if there's a problem? The other part is how easy is it to find replacement parts if there's a problem?
Speaker 1:All three of those are, I would say, worse. Reliability is worse in all three categories when you deviate from stock injectors. I'm harping on injectors a lot one because that's what you're looking at, and two because the injector choice will make or break the truck until you change it. I'm not anti-bigger injectors, I'm just anti-bigger injectors when they're not needed and when they don't make sense because there's a lot of downsides to them. A lot of people end up going that route, thinking it's going to be better, and then hate it because now their truck doesn't just run and do everything like it used to. I don't want to avoid that if possible.
Speaker 2:That's the thing I think Everybody pushes oh you need a 180, 30, or a 205, whatever it's like. I don't know, do I? It does everything I want it to do now. It's just a tad sluggish towing and she's worn out.
Speaker 1:You would gain a lot by addressing the problem. It sounds like the problem is it just replacing the injectors with stock is probably going to get you some performance back. Doing a look over the truck make sure you don't have any boost leaks, Make sure your H-pop is keeping up, Make sure compression is good. Is it healthy? Then just adding tuning and then, if you want to give you an example, a great, very reliable setup and significantly more responsive and powerful than stock would be, like you mentioned, AC turbo's, balanced assembly paired with a PHP Hyder for tuning and staying with healthy stock injectors, maybe throwing in a high-pressure oil pump if it's needed. That combination will get you at a minimum a usable 40, 80, maybe up to 100 horsepower more. But realistically, if you're working the truck, probably around 60 to 80 horsepower more of usable working power. That's a lot.
Speaker 1:You're not going to make 500 horsepower anyway on a 7.3. You're not going to make 400 horsepower with a 7.3 and work with it. Our limit of ability to keep them cool for any reasonable build is right around 300 to 350 horsepower anyway. How big of a leap into aftermarket do you want to go to make another usable 50 horsepower? That's up to you For a lot of time. That doesn't really make sense. To have the downside of all the repercussions of modified injectors that kind of destroy the way the truck was like, kind of it's just like start it, drive it, it's smooth and it works every day. It's about more to lose that for just a little bit more power, when we can mostly maintain that reliability and still make more power than it did from the factory.
Speaker 2:Okay, what are your thoughts on injector cuts? So some people say replace them, some people say if they're not, we can, don't touch them. Some say go brass, some say go stainless, like that's an anxiety point for me what makes it hard to make that choice?
Speaker 2:Well, you just hear about all the I mean, doing an injector doesn't seem all that complicated swapping an injector but pulling a cup and making sure it's seated properly and sealed properly and all of that stuff. And you hear all the problems with leaks. And you know, do I want to jack with that? I mean, if I do, what cup do I use or do I actually send that to a shop? So far I've done everything on this truck except for rebuild the transmission, so reaching the boundaries of how comfortable I am digging around inside the engine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, the best answer I can give you with that is if you don't feel comfortable doing something, then don't do it. I've seen way, way, way too many times where people don't feel comfortable and then do it anyway, and then you create your own worst nightmare. Maybe it works out, but oftentimes it doesn't.
Speaker 2:Maybe it doesn't right.
Speaker 1:But the truth is that's what good shops are for. It's more expensive, but they take care of the problem with that nervousness of and not feeling like you have the ability to do the job properly, and it's just totally fair. If you're going to do the injectors yourself, though, I don't recommend replacing the cups unless they look like they need to be replaced. So if you pull the injectors out and you clean the cups and there's no obvious cracks, I wouldn't replace them unless you were just super comfortable. You're like oh yeah, I've done this before, easy enough, happy to do it, go for it. You know, if you want to do it, go for it, but if you're already uncomfortable with it, I would not replace them if you don't need to.
Speaker 2:So it's not one of those absolute things that, when you're in there, you should do right, not cups.
Speaker 1:If it was a like. If it's a, if you really know what you're doing and you're totally comfortable with it and you have the good tools for it and everything, then it's not a bad idea. But it is typically worse to do it if you're not comfortable with it than to do it when it's not needed Okay. So I don't know if that helps. Kind of answer your question there.
Speaker 2:It kind of reinforces that if it's not broke, don't fix it right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean there's a lot of things that that that should be addressed or fixed or upgraded or whatever, but cups is not one of them. I would be. There's not a. There's not a strong correlation between mileage and cups failing. They fail at 50,000 miles, they fail at 500,000 miles and they might fail every year if something else is going on, it there's. It's not like because it has high mileage, they're more likely to be cracked.
Speaker 2:I.
Speaker 1:I don't know that there's I haven't seen a strong correlation. There's not a consistent mileage where we specifically see cracks in cups. And as for if you replace them, the biggest thing that matters is replace them with, with an OEM set. There's a lot of really crappy, cheap ones out there that are pretty much guaranteed to crack, and so I would say, with Motorcraft or Aliant, if you want to go with Stainless, you can. I think the only option for that is going to be from Riff RAF diesel.
Speaker 1:I don't have any concerns really with the stainless cups. They have kind of proven to be fine. My original concern with them would have been years ago was that they were going to be more difficult to remove. So if you did have to pull one out they might be quite a bit more difficult to get out again. But we've tested them. They're perfectly easy to get out. So we haven't done a lot of long-term testing, the same we would know from brass cups to say what the edge potential issues would be. We just use brass cups in our shop, but I wouldn't be scared of using stainless. We do not use stainless though.
Speaker 2:And I guess the other thing is L-pop. So I've seen a lot of things recently about everybody replacing the low pressure oil pump A because they wear out and they can't keep up with the larger H-pops that are put in. Is that a preventive maintenance thing? 375,000 miles, you probably should look at the wear on the L-pop and what that looks like.
Speaker 1:It's not one of the things I would be too worried about. No, if it fails, they're not that expensive to replace. If you have to. They're kind of a pain, but there's a lot of things that can be worn by 350,000 miles, so I wouldn't say that a low pressure oil pump is more important than anything else.
Speaker 2:So again, it's not broke, don't fix it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if there's not a known issue, then you can infinitely chase potential problems. I find it's usually best to just you know, rather than chasing them, just avoid them when possible, but like, don't create problems and then just address issues when there are issues. I'd say that's probably generally the best rule of thumb with these old things.
Speaker 2:And I guess my last thing is uppipes on an excursion. Everybody that I see does uppipes. They pull the cab off the pickup truck, which is all nice and gritty dandy, but pulling the entire body of an excursion off the frame is not something I want to do in my driveway. So uppipes or leaking uppipes, is that something I should just take it to the shop and say, hey, how about it? Enjoy? Or is that something that you think you can do with the cab on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wouldn't categorize the uppipes as any more difficult than doing injectors. Injectors is more involved than the uppipes is. You don't, and you definitely do not have to pull the cab to replace the uppipes, not even close.
Speaker 2:Okay, cool. I mean I got the the new Exhaust downpipe done four inches between the turbo and the fire wall with a lot of Cussing and squeezing, but I guess if I can do that the pipe shouldn't be too bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the only thing that's difficult with uppipes is if it's really rusty, you you probably bet be better off on the lower bolts where it connects to the manifold, just cutting the bolts off, then trying to remove them, and then, you know, removing the clamp from the, from the collector On the uppipes to the turbo that can be. If it's never been removed before, that can be a real pain to get off.
Speaker 2:It's been off three or four times.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so if you're used to that, it's not. It's not a big deal, it's a pretty easy job.
Speaker 2:Well, that that makes me feel a lot better that I'm not looking to do, or having to do, a whole lot of stuff as far as you know, calculating Bigger cups and bigger fuel and bigger, bigger, bigger to really not get much more than where I want to be. So you know, a solid rebuild stock set of injectors, the balanced assembly in a tuner from the hydro tuner. I think the wife checkbook a lot happier too.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you know, if you were pursuing a, if you're pursuing power for power's sake, then that's one thing. But if you're pursuing a truck that's going to Keep doing what it's always been doing for as long as possible Maybe just a little bit better than it was then I then I don't think that going any further than you know, going going any further than that list is, is a good idea. I think you're gonna turn yourself into a. You're gonna make the truck into a project truck, which sounds like it's not really what you're looking for.
Speaker 2:So anything else at 375,000 miles that I should be concerned with or looking at. I mean, I know like glow plugs, you know the easy things, but is there anything else? It's like, hey, you should really take a look at XYZ while you're while you're in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if there's anything like I said, if there's anything that's visually or the way it drives or idols or runs or anything there's anything obviously wrong, it's worth looking into what could be causing it or replacing something that's visually a problem, especially once you pull the valve covers off, if there's, if it looks like just I, you could make the argument that probably everything is worn by the time. It's that you know that that mileage. So there's not. There's not a specific list of things that have to be addressed. But, yeah, just visually looking at, I'd say, if you're, if you're really concerned about it, something that would be important that I think everybody should do with that mileage, if you're going to dig into it, is a compression test. So even if you can rent a tool, if you don't have one, to do a compression test while you have the valve covers off, that's a great idea.
Speaker 1:You know cylinder issues are going to be the most common, the most common problem at that mileage. Yep, yeah, I so you know, and even if you had low, you know if you have low compression or just moderately low compression in one cylinder, it's not weird with that mileage. These are definitely not million mile engines. It doesn't mean it's the end of the day either. I mean you could just keep running the truck for another 100,000 miles if you have low compression depends on what's wrong with it, but it's good to know kind of where you sit. It's not a bad time to not a bad time to see what the health of the cylinders is.
Speaker 2:Is there a specific number that you should say, ok, this needs to be honed and sleeved, or there's not one number.
Speaker 1:What you want to look for is consistency across all cylinders. So you would want to be within about a 10 to 15 percent margin between all eight cylinders. All being lower is slightly worse, all being higher is slightly better. The target would be around like 400 psi of compression on all cylinders. But it's perfectly fine, it's not concerning. If it's say, like 370 psi, that's OK. Where there's a concern is if you've got, you know, one cylinder, or got seven cylinders that are, you know 380 psi, and then you've got one that's like 250, then that's a problem. So it's more of a delta, exactly, yep. And then does that kind of answer your questions or is that just give?
Speaker 2:you more of them. It really does. And then on the tuning that like do you guys do tunes or do you have recommended tune or that you like?
Speaker 1:We don't sell tuning anymore. We used to, nor is it needed with stock injectors. The PHP Hydra is going to come with, like PHP's library of tunes for stock injector trucks. That's just included and that's. That's probably all you're going to need.
Speaker 2:OK, so you don't need custom tunes for anything with what I've got, correct?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there's really no need for that, unless unless you have modified injectors and a more modified setup, then PHP's files are going to work great, ok, perfect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess that's about it. It makes me feel a lot better about you know, there's just so many options and so many opinions on things and you're like, you know, you feel like going stock is not the right thing to do. Going back in, you're like, well, you've got to do something better since you're in here. Right, it's just $200 or $400 more dollars.
Speaker 1:It's $200 for this and $500 for that and $1,100 for that and then $8,000 for transmission Right.
Speaker 2:Well, an understanding too that it's not. It's going to mess with your liability and it's going to give you a harder time in diagnosing, and it's not going to get you really any more than what you're looking for. It's not worth it. So it makes me feel a lot better about you know, solid, fully revamped, than going with some exotic yeah.
Speaker 1:All that makes sense. And then the whole point of these conversations is that you can walk away comfortable with the choice you're making. That's really all it comes down to. There's not necessarily a this is a right and this is a wrong answer. I couldn't tell you that, but if it makes sense to you, that's kind of what we're after.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Hey, if you guys like this show, share it with your friends. Share it with anybody you think would enjoy it. I really appreciate you guys listening. Check out the next episodes, the 1023 Soul Shop Talk podcast, and you can find us at 1023 Soulcom If you're looking for parts. Thanks for listening.